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Re: [icons-rpg] Time for an official help sheet?

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  • eric troup
    I fuly suport this idea. Also, it could include examples of how to handle situations where villains would use Determination if they had any--such as stunts
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 1, 2011
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      I fuly suport this idea.  Also, it could include examples of how to handle situations where villains would use Determination if they had any--such as stunts and/or Aspects, or a villain with a Probability Control power.  Many of these things could really use an "official" ruling.  I'd feel much better about having to house-rule something if I knew how it was supposed to work in the first place.


      On 1 Feb 2011, at 03:54, Soylent Green wrote:

       

      Prompted by a recent thread...

       

      If there is one thing missing from the ICONS rule book is play examples. Even though the system is really quite simple the unusual "player only rolls" approach can add a layer of confusion and for a game designed with the pick up and play attitude I'd say this is an issue. It makes ICONS less accessible than it should be.

       

      I wonder if Adamant might consider creating a help sheet with play examples for things like:

       

      Examples of combat round with an PC attacking an NPC

      Examples of combat round with an NPC attacking an PC

      Examples of a PC making Strength test to resist slam, stuns and kill result

      Examples of an NPC making Strength test to resist slam, stuns and kill result

      Examples of NPC using various superpowers, especially where the PC would normally roll dice or spend Determination Points on.

      Other stuff the comes up all the time I can't think of at the moment.

       

      It could be a free download like Savage Worlds's "Combat Survival Guide" or packaged up like an ICONS GM screen, I don't know.

       

      Sure, if you look hard enough you can find ICONS crib sheets and example fights on fan sites or on this mailing list, but that hardly reaches a lot of people. I think it would need to be on the Adamant site or RPGNow.  Also the fan made stuff doesn't always get it right.



    • robert fv
      On this topic of play examples and rules confusion, I love the concept of players make all the roles but the rules are always written from the normal
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 1, 2011
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        On this topic of play examples and rules confusion, I love the concept of "players make all the roles" but the rules are always written from the "normal" perspective of players act, NPCs defend, and ICONS falls into this too.

        The Big Example: PCs deal damage to villain. Rules state that when you're hit, you check for slam/stun by making a Strength check against the damage. But...but...the players are supposed to determine this, aren't they? So...
        a) do we reverse that mechanical conflict, and have the player make a "damage check" against the villain's Strength, or
        b) does the GM roll the villain's Strength check?

        I don't mind either way, but as written, the rules do NOT cover this situation adequately in the spirit of "players make all the roles."

        I always had the same problem with Marvel SAGA, and my ruling was that I'd handle the NPCs' defense checks, just to keep it simple and expedient, unless it was the big showdown or a very dramatic scene, then I'd reverse it and let the player play cards for the action.

        Robert
         
        Howling in the Dark http://spookable.blogspot.com/



        From: eric troup <yakkoman@...>
        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 5:49:22 PM
        Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Time for an official help sheet?

         

        I fuly suport this idea.  Also, it could include examples of how to handle situations where villains would use Determination if they had any--such as stunts and/or Aspects, or a villain with a Probability Control power.  Many of these things could really use an "official" ruling.  I'd feel much better about having to house-rule something if I knew how it was supposed to work in the first place.



        On 1 Feb 2011, at 03:54, Soylent Green wrote:

         

        Prompted by a recent thread...

         

        If there is one thing missing from the ICONS rule book is play examples. Even though the system is really quite simple the unusual "player only rolls" approach can add a layer of confusion and for a game designed with the pick up and play attitude I'd say this is an issue. It makes ICONS less accessible than it should be.

         

        I wonder if Adamant might consider creating a help sheet with play examples for things like:

         

        Examples of combat round with an PC attacking an NPC

        Examples of combat round with an NPC attacking an PC

        Examples of a PC making Strength test to resist slam, stuns and kill result

        Examples of an NPC making Strength test to resist slam, stuns and kill result

        Examples of NPC using various superpowers, especially where the PC would normally roll dice or spend Determination Points on.

        Other stuff the comes up all the time I can't think of at the moment.

         

        It could be a free download like Savage Worlds's "Combat Survival Guide" or packaged up like an ICONS GM screen, I don't know.

         

        Sure, if you look hard enough you can find ICONS crib sheets and example fights on fan sites or on this mailing list, but that hardly reaches a lot of people. I think it would need to be on the Adamant site or RPGNow.  Also the fan made stuff doesn't always get it right.




      • Soylent Green
        I believe that as written the for an NPC Strength test you treat the NPC Strength as static and the player rolls 1d6-1d6 and adds that to the damage level.
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 1, 2011
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          I believe that as written the for an NPC Strength test you treat the NPC Strength as static and the player rolls 1d6-1d6 and adds that to the damage level.

          Note however that even though it is the player is rolling the dice, the result is read from the NPC point of view.  So an overall result of "0" ois a Moderate Success for the NPC. You don't need to invert the Slan and Stun result tables. I only mention thist because its one of the things that tripped me up initially.

          That said after played it straight for a few months, I switched to your method B and started making Strength Test for my NPC myself. after player asking me why I'm asking them to roll their damage week after week its just quicker and feels more natural to me to make the rolls myself.   For most other things I still have the players roll everything.  I like GMing with my hands free and they enjoy being in the spotlight.

          And while we are ont he topic, any else read the Mastermind Affiair and got the feeling that the author in a few places was assuming the GM would roll for the NPCs?



          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          From: robtfv@...
          Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 16:02:14 -0800
          Subject: [icons-rpg] Player-only game mechanics

           

          On this topic of play examples and rules confusion, I love the concept of "players make all the roles" but the rules are always written from the "normal" perspective of players act, NPCs defend, and ICONS falls into this too.

          The Big Example: PCs deal damage to villain. Rules state that when you're hit, you check for slam/stun by making a Strength check against the damage. But...but...the players are supposed to determine this, aren't they? So...
          a) do we reverse that mechanical conflict, and have the player make a "damage check" against the villain's Strength, or
          b) does the GM roll the villain's Strength check?

          I don't mind either way, but as written, the rules do NOT cover this situation adequately in the spirit of "players make all the roles."

          I always had the same problem with Marvel SAGA, and my ruling was that I'd handle the NPCs' defense checks, just to keep it simple and expedient, unless it was the big showdown or a very dramatic scene, then I'd reverse it and let the player play cards for the action.

          Robert
           
          Howling in the Dark http://spookable.blogspot.com/



          From: eric troup <yakkoman@...>
          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 5:49:22 PM
          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Time for an official help sheet?

           
          I fuly suport this idea.  Also, it could include examples of how to handle situations where villains would use Determination if they had any--such as stunts and/or Aspects, or a villain with a Probability Control power.  Many of these things could really use an "official" ruling.  I'd feel much better about having to house-rule something if I knew how it was supposed to work in the first place.


          On 1 Feb 2011, at 03:54, Soylent Green wrote:

           

          Prompted by a recent thread...

           

          If there is one thing missing from the ICONS rule book is play examples. Even though the system is really quite simple the unusual "player only rolls" approach can add a layer of confusion and for a game designed with the pick up and play attitude I'd say this is an issue. It makes ICONS less accessible than it should be.

           

          I wonder if Adamant might consider creating a help sheet with play examples for things like:

           

          Examples of combat round with an PC attacking an NPC

          Examples of combat round with an NPC attacking an PC

          Examples of a PC making Strength test to resist slam, stuns and kill result

          Examples of an NPC making Strength test to resist slam, stuns and kill result

          Examples of NPC using various superpowers, especially where the PC would normally roll dice or spend Determination Points on.

          Other stuff the comes up all the time I can't think of at the moment.

           

          It could be a free download like Savage Worlds's "Combat Survival Guide" or packaged up like an ICONS GM screen, I don't know.

           

          Sure, if you look hard enough you can find ICONS crib sheets and example fights on fan sites or on this mailing list, but that hardly reaches a lot of people. I think it would need to be on the Adamant site or RPGNow.  Also the fan made stuff doesn't always get it right.





        • eric troup
          The way I ve handled this is that when checking the player s damage against strength of villain or vice versa, in either case, the player rolls dice and
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 1, 2011
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            The way I've handled this is that when checking the player's damage against strength of villain or vice versa, in either case, the player rolls dice and adds/subtracts the result from whatever his part in the check is.  So, for instance, Diamond Joe's player smacks a villain with a punch which does 7 points of damage, and hits hard enough to warrant a slam check.  Diamond Joe's player rolls two dice.  Let's say he gets a 4 on the positive and a 3 on the negative.  He adds +1 to his total, making it 8 for purposes of the slam check.  If we switched it around and the villain hit Diamond Joe, Diamond Joe would still roll two dice; assuming he got the same results as above, he would add one to his Strength to compare it to the damage done by the villain for purposes of determining whether he gets Slammed.

            But you're right.  Even though I believe this is as intended by the rules, they certainly could've been written more clearly.


            On 1 Feb 2011, at 16:02, robert fv wrote:

             

            On this topic of play examples and rules confusion, I love the concept of "players make all the roles" but the rules are always written from the "normal" perspective of players act, NPCs defend, and ICONS falls into this too.

            The Big Example: PCs deal damage to villain. Rules state that when you're hit, you check for slam/stun by making a Strength check against the damage. But...but...the players are supposed to determine this, aren't they? So...
            a) do we reverse that mechanical conflict, and have the player make a "damage check" against the villain's Strength, or
            b) does the GM roll the villain's Strength check?

            I don't mind either way, but as written, the rules do NOT cover this situation adequately in the spirit of "players make all the roles."

            I always had the same problem with Marvel SAGA, and my ruling was that I'd handle the NPCs' defense checks, just to keep it simple and expedient, unless it was the big showdown or a very dramatic scene, then I'd reverse it and let the player play cards for the action.

            Robert
             
            Howling in the Dark http://spookable.blogspot.com/



            From: eric troup <yakkoman@...>
            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 5:49:22 PM
            Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Time for an official help sheet?

             

            I fuly suport this idea.  Also, it could include examples of how to handle situations where villains would use Determination if they had any--such as stunts and/or Aspects, or a villain with a Probability Control power.  Many of these things could really use an "official" ruling.  I'd feel much better about having to house-rule something if I knew how it was supposed to work in the first place.



            On 1 Feb 2011, at 03:54, Soylent Green wrote:

             

            Prompted by a recent thread...

             

            If there is one thing missing from the ICONS rule book is play examples. Even though the system is really quite simple the unusual "player only rolls" approach can add a layer of confusion and for a game designed with the pick up and play attitude I'd say this is an issue. It makes ICONS less accessible than it should be.

             

            I wonder if Adamant might consider creating a help sheet with play examples for things like:

             

            Examples of combat round with an PC attacking an NPC

            Examples of combat round with an NPC attacking an PC

            Examples of a PC making Strength test to resist slam, stuns and kill result

            Examples of an NPC making Strength test to resist slam, stuns and kill result

            Examples of NPC using various superpowers, especially where the PC would normally roll dice or spend Determination Points on.

            Other stuff the comes up all the time I can't think of at the moment.

             

            It could be a free download like Savage Worlds's "Combat Survival Guide" or packaged up like an ICONS GM screen, I don't know.

             

            Sure, if you look hard enough you can find ICONS crib sheets and example fights on fan sites or on this mailing list, but that hardly reaches a lot of people. I think it would need to be on the Adamant site or RPGNow.  Also the fan made stuff doesn't always get it right.






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