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Re: Dogs maul 9-yr-old girl to death - Tribune 17.2.12

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  • aakash shrivastava
    *Response to Doc Simi* - The data is about rabies and no one is denying the facts and magnitude...discussion is about methods of effective control... - All
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 18, 2012
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      Response to Doc Simi
      • The data is about rabies and no one is denying the facts and magnitude...discussion is about methods of effective control...
      • All Rights of any kinds always comes at a cost to someone..this is a rule ! Society decides who gets the right and who the cost !
      • Years ago the Independent India government took a measure of coercive sterilization...an administrative response to a need of that time...remember the consequences...spare yourself that animal activists do not maul us for doing the same to dogs...just because we believe that homo-sapiens were born to rule the universe !! We may use their lenient opinion to this method and effectively use a properly implemented birth control programme to gain our objectives... 
      • No one is against trapping the rabied...only approach the animal as you would approach a criminal or violently insane human...arrest without unnecessary pain...investigate/diagnose...appeal for detention...provide a peaceful, painless, decent death.
      Aakash Shrivastava    


      On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 6:37 AM, simi doc <simidoc25@...> wrote:
          Actually you are right, that animals have rights by the constitution of India and cannot be treated improperly but at cost of of some human life....of course a big NO...just think about the girl's parents and terror it had created among children. Half of children can't go and play as they are afraid of dogs. Just see the data's " According to WHO more than 35,000 people die of rabies in India every year most are still not documented, which accounts for about 81 per cent of global deaths." " About 3.5 million dog bites are registered every year in India."
      Sitting in medicine OPD, you can realize the situation of vaccines used in a day and how it is effecting health infrastructure. Again am not in favor of killing stray dogs but to control it which is need of society. Atleast they can be trapped, the rabied one......????

      --
      ENJOY L!FE

    • aakash shrivastava
      *Response to Doc Simi* The job of Activists is to defend animal rights; the job of Animal Welfare is to organize funds and protection programs. Killing in
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 19, 2012
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        Response to Doc Simi
        The job of "Activists" is to defend animal rights; the job of "Animal Welfare" is to organize funds and protection programs.
        Killing in self defense would be permitted to only the one likely to suffer or in case of a minor, the guardian or third party present at site of action. No one is permitted to kill a healthy stray dog (Sections 428 and 429 of the Indian Penal Code).
        If stray dogs are nuisance in any locality, there are trap, vaccination, sterilization, shelter, re-locate measures available. Locals are requested to fight it out with Municipalities and Animal Welfare Board. 
        Ask the elected representative Municipality Councillor or the Rabies Vaccine Companies to sponsor your project...look how others do this http://digiredo.wordpress.com/tag/world-rabies-day/
        It is expensive but rights come with a cost...dogs did not come from jungles to live with humans on their own...we brought them to live with us and so we need to arrange for everything we or our ancestors created...  
        best wishes
        Aakash Shrivastava   

        On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 5:33 PM, simi doc <simidoc25@...> wrote:

        Yeah dats wat am saying ....without ny voilence..or hurting dem atleast dey should b trapped...nd treated....wen ny human get mental disorders dey are taken to mental hospital ...dey r nt left on,roads to hurt others....same with dogs..,,but wat animal activist doing just telling about animal rights...nd dnt tke ny preventive measures....nd evry1 have rights for self defence. We cnt jst stand nd let rabied dogs bite us....bcoz at d end both animals and human have pain.....and mortality......

        On Feb 18, 2012 4:31 PM, "aakash shrivastava" <dr.aakash.shrivastava@...> wrote:
        Response to Doc Simi
        • The data is about rabies and no one is denying the facts and magnitude...discussion is about methods of effective control...
        • All Rights of any kinds always comes at a cost to someone..this is a rule ! Society decides who gets the right and who the cost !
        • Years ago the Independent India government took a measure of coercive sterilization...an administrative response to a need of that time...remember the consequences...spare yourself that animal activists do not maul us for doing the same to dogs...just because we believe that homo-sapiens were born to rule the universe !! We may use their lenient opinion to this method and effectively use a properly implemented birth control programme to gain our objectives... 
        • No one is against trapping the rabied...only approach the animal as you would approach a criminal or violently insane human...arrest without unnecessary pain...investigate/diagnose...appeal for detention...provide a peaceful, painless, decent death.
        Aakash Shrivastava    


        On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 6:37 AM, simi doc <simidoc25@...> wrote:
            Actually you are right, that animals have rights by the constitution of India and cannot be treated improperly but at cost of of some human life....of course a big NO...just think about the girl's parents and terror it had created among children. Half of children can't go and play as they are afraid of dogs. Just see the data's " According to WHO more than 35,000 people die of rabies in India every year most are still not documented, which accounts for about 81 per cent of global deaths." " About 3.5 million dog bites are registered every year in India."
        Sitting in medicine OPD, you can realize the situation of vaccines used in a day and how it is effecting health infrastructure. Again am not in favor of killing stray dogs but to control it which is need of society. Atleast they can be trapped, the rabied one......????

        --
        ENJOY L!FE


      • Clarence Samuel
        Dear all, Gandhiji in his newspaper young india called stray dog menace a sin. a quote . the article is attached “The Mahajan may not allow the dogs to
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 19, 2012
        Dear all,
        Gandhiji in his newspaper young india called stray dog menace a sin.

        a quote . the article is attached

        “The Mahajan may not allow the dogs to stray… It is a sin; it should be a sin to feed stray dogs and we should save numerous dogs if we had legislation making every stray dog liable to be shot. Even if those who feed stray dogs consented to pay a penalty for their misdirected compassion we should be free from the curse of stray dogs.”

         

        “Humanity is a noble attribute of the soul. It is not exhausted with saving a few dogs or a few fish; such saving may even be sinful. If I have a swarm of ants in my house, the man who proceeds to feed them will be guilty of a sin…. The Mahajan may feel itself safe and believe that it has saved their lives by dumping dogs near my field but it will have committed the greater sin of putting my life in danger.”

        regards

        Dr Clarence Samuel

      • aakash shrivastava
        *Dear All* I am very thankful to Dr C Samuel for posting this article as an attachment Though Gandhiji by no means may be an authority to make any decisions,
        Message 4 of 9 , Feb 20, 2012
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          Dear All
          I am very thankful to Dr C Samuel for posting this article as an attachment
          Though Gandhiji by no means may be an authority to make any decisions, it is always worthwhile understanding viewpoints of great leaders that partook shaping modern India
          Anyone who reads this posting should first read through entire article in attachment to understand what Gandhiji implied by his thoughts :
          I quote a few lines by him that enlightened me to his mindset:

          “But I have not advocated an indiscriminate destruction of even stray dogs. Many other remedies have to be adopted before that drastic measure is resorted to. What I have insisted upon is a municipal by-law authorizing municipalities to destroy unowned dogs. This simple legislation will prevent dogs from cruel neglect ..."


          “The writer has misunderstood my meaning. I would not suggest even the destruction of rabid dogs for the sake of it, much less that of innocent roving dogs. Nor have I said that these latter should be killed wherever they are found. I have only suggested legislation to that effect, so that as soon as the law is made, humane people might wake up in the matter and devise better management of stray dogs. Some of these might be owned, some might be put in quarantine. The remedy, when it is taken, will be once for all. Stray dogs do not drop down from heaven. They are sign of idleness, indifference and ignorance of society." 


          Infact in independent India, the municipality by-laws were given powers to kill stray dogs, but the way it was being handled, brought about a judicial inquiry in 1992, and the Supreme Court made an amendment that forbade them to act without resorting to other available methods...now the Animal Welfare Board makes a check on municipality to how they resolve stray dog issues...the problem is that Municipality does not likes to spend its resources on stray dogs and chooses for the cheapest and easiest method of kill...


          The best metaphor in Gandhiji text here is that he equates this issue with the situation of beggars...I wonder if fellow Indians thought it was right to shoot beggars, after all they are equally a threat to peace and safety....it is equally expensive to rehabilitate them and a "sin" to leave them to their plight...


          Once again many thanks Dr C Samuel...I definitely would like to know where this article was published for my interest...


          best wishes

          Aakash Shrivastava

              





          On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 2:32 AM, Clarence Samuel <clarencejs@...> wrote:
           
          [Attachment(s) from Clarence Samuel included below]

          Dear all,
          Gandhiji in his newspaper young india called stray dog menace a sin.

          a quote . the article is attached

          “The Mahajan may not allow the dogs to stray… It is a sin; it should be a sin to feed stray dogs and we should save numerous dogs if we had legislation making every stray dog liable to be shot. Even if those who feed stray dogs consented to pay a penalty for their misdirected compassion we should be free from the curse of stray dogs.”

           

          “Humanity is a noble attribute of the soul. It is not exhausted with saving a few dogs or a few fish; such saving may even be sinful. If I have a swarm of ants in my house, the man who proceeds to feed them will be guilty of a sin…. The Mahajan may feel itself safe and believe that it has saved their lives by dumping dogs near my field but it will have committed the greater sin of putting my life in danger.”

          regards

          Dr Clarence Samuel


        • Dr RK Sood
          Friends, Love for animal is good in theory and for philosophy, but in conflict when it endangers human life, is animal right above human. I have seen people
          Message 5 of 9 , Feb 20, 2012
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            Friends,

            Love for animal is good in theory and for philosophy, but in conflict when it endangers human life, is animal right above human. I have seen people dying of rabies for no fault of theirs, court orders are an excuse, while nobody really argued for human rights.

            The techniques advocated for animal population control and removing have been so much complex, that how does a non vet act in self defence. He is a mercy of dogs...literal one and actual ones. fro example a rabid dog is to be killed humanely by I/V Mg SO4 after trapping. Any volunteer to trap a rabid dog. Till then humans are under curfew..

            Human rights have to be kept above animal rights, we we want to survive without rabies.

            RK Sood

            On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 4:21 PM, aakash shrivastava <dr.aakash.shrivastava@...> wrote:
             Dear All
            I am very thankful to Dr C Samuel for posting this article as an attachment
            Though Gandhiji by no means may be an authority to make any decisions, it is always worthwhile understanding viewpoints of great leaders that partook shaping modern India
            Anyone who reads this posting should first read through entire article in attachment to understand what Gandhiji implied by his thoughts :
            I quote a few lines by him that enlightened me to his mindset:

            “But I have not advocated an indiscriminate destruction of even stray dogs. Many other remedies have to be adopted before that drastic measure is resorted to. What I have insisted upon is a municipal by-law authorizing municipalities to destroy unowned dogs. This simple legislation will prevent dogs from cruel neglect ..."


            “The writer has misunderstood my meaning. I would not suggest even the destruction of rabid dogs for the sake of it, much less that of innocent roving dogs. Nor have I said that these latter should be killed wherever they are found. I have only suggested legislation to that effect, so that as soon as the law is made, humane people might wake up in the matter and devise better management of stray dogs. Some of these might be owned, some might be put in quarantine. The remedy, when it is taken, will be once for all. Stray dogs do not drop down from heaven. They are sign of idleness, indifference and ignorance of society." 


            Infact in independent India, the municipality by-laws were given powers to kill stray dogs, but the way it was being handled, brought about a judicial inquiry in 1992, and the Supreme Court made an amendment that forbade them to act without resorting to other available methods...now the Animal Welfare Board makes a check on municipality to how they resolve stray dog issues...the problem is that Municipality does not likes to spend its resources on stray dogs and chooses for the cheapest and easiest method of kill...


            The best metaphor in Gandhiji text here is that he equates this issue with the situation of beggars...I wonder if fellow Indians thought it was right to shoot beggars, after all they are equally a threat to peace and safety....it is equally expensive to rehabilitate them and a "sin" to leave them to their plight...


            Once again many thanks Dr C Samuel...I definitely would like to know where this article was published for my interest...


            best wishes

            Aakash Shrivastava

                





            On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 2:32 AM, Clarence Samuel <clarencejs@...> wrote:
             
            [Attachment(s) from Clarence Samuel included below]

            Dear all,
            Gandhiji in his newspaper young india called stray dog menace a sin.

            a quote . the article is attached

            “The Mahajan may not allow the dogs to stray… It is a sin; it should be a sin to feed stray dogs and we should save numerous dogs if we had legislation making every stray dog liable to be shot. Even if those who feed stray dogs consented to pay a penalty for their misdirected compassion we should be free from the curse of stray dogs.”

             

            “Humanity is a noble attribute of the soul. It is not exhausted with saving a few dogs or a few fish; such saving may even be sinful. If I have a swarm of ants in my house, the man who proceeds to feed them will be guilty of a sin…. The Mahajan may feel itself safe and believe that it has saved their lives by dumping dogs near my field but it will have committed the greater sin of putting my life in danger.”

            regards

            Dr Clarence Samuel



          • aakash shrivastava
            *In response... * I am not an animal activist, but certainly do see a rationale in their arguments. In my opinion the Indian regulations and acts are very well
            Message 6 of 9 , Feb 20, 2012
            In response... 
            I am not an animal activist, but certainly do see a rationale in their arguments.
            In my opinion the Indian regulations and acts are very well defined for protection of both animals and humans. Although I only agree that its implementations has not been executed properly. The Municipalities and Animal Welfare have both been provided with sufficient powers to attend to best interest of animals and humans.
            Remains the matter of our like and dislike...I would say that just because we do not like things, we do not get rid of them for our whims, especially if the problem is our own creation...many a times communes have appealed before authorities regarding threat to their peaceful existence...and many a times we have resorted to killing whom we did not like, because one faction believes that their rights are superior to others...they believe that their ones should not suffer for the existence of the other faction...
            The human race holds its supremacy only for the ability to rationalize..being civilized..striving to unite with not only people of all backgrounds but also other existing forms of lives for a peaceful existence in this universe..
            I enclose in attachment a 162 page court verdict for the interested to understand how Indian authorities have addressed these issues...
            Fortunately India has a democratic set up and each voice has a hearing...if supporters of human rights is above animal rights can gather enough support to move the National Human Rights Commission to fight the verdict of the Court..I am sure you would get what you want provided you can prove your arguments...
            best wishes
            Aakash Shrivastava 
                 

            On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Dr RK Sood <drrksood@...> wrote:
             

            Friends,

            Love for animal is good in theory and for philosophy, but in conflict when it endangers human life, is animal right above human. I have seen people dying of rabies for no fault of theirs, court orders are an excuse, while nobody really argued for human rights.

            The techniques advocated for animal population control and removing have been so much complex, that how does a non vet act in self defence. He is a mercy of dogs...literal one and actual ones. fro example a rabid dog is to be killed humanely by I/V Mg SO4 after trapping. Any volunteer to trap a rabid dog. Till then humans are under curfew..

            Human rights have to be kept above animal rights, we we want to survive without rabies.

            RK Sood

            On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 4:21 PM, aakash shrivastava <dr.aakash.shrivastava@...> wrote:
             Dear All
            I am very thankful to Dr C Samuel for posting this article as an attachment
            Though Gandhiji by no means may be an authority to make any decisions, it is always worthwhile understanding viewpoints of great leaders that partook shaping modern India
            Anyone who reads this posting should first read through entire article in attachment to understand what Gandhiji implied by his thoughts :
            I quote a few lines by him that enlightened me to his mindset:

            “But I have not advocated an indiscriminate destruction of even stray dogs. Many other remedies have to be adopted before that drastic measure is resorted to. What I have insisted upon is a municipal by-law authorizing municipalities to destroy unowned dogs. This simple legislation will prevent dogs from cruel neglect ..."


            “The writer has misunderstood my meaning. I would not suggest even the destruction of rabid dogs for the sake of it, much less that of innocent roving dogs. Nor have I said that these latter should be killed wherever they are found. I have only suggested legislation to that effect, so that as soon as the law is made, humane people might wake up in the matter and devise better management of stray dogs. Some of these might be owned, some might be put in quarantine. The remedy, when it is taken, will be once for all. Stray dogs do not drop down from heaven. They are sign of idleness, indifference and ignorance of society." 


            Infact in independent India, the municipality by-laws were given powers to kill stray dogs, but the way it was being handled, brought about a judicial inquiry in 1992, and the Supreme Court made an amendment that forbade them to act without resorting to other available methods...now the Animal Welfare Board makes a check on municipality to how they resolve stray dog issues...the problem is that Municipality does not likes to spend its resources on stray dogs and chooses for the cheapest and easiest method of kill...


            The best metaphor in Gandhiji text here is that he equates this issue with the situation of beggars...I wonder if fellow Indians thought it was right to shoot beggars, after all they are equally a threat to peace and safety....it is equally expensive to rehabilitate them and a "sin" to leave them to their plight...


            Once again many thanks Dr C Samuel...I definitely would like to know where this article was published for my interest...


            best wishes

            Aakash Shrivastava

                





            On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 2:32 AM, Clarence Samuel <clarencejs@...> wrote:
             
            [Attachment(s) from Clarence Samuel included below]

            Dear all,
            Gandhiji in his newspaper young india called stray dog menace a sin.

            a quote . the article is attached

            “The Mahajan may not allow the dogs to stray… It is a sin; it should be a sin to feed stray dogs and we should save numerous dogs if we had legislation making every stray dog liable to be shot. Even if those who feed stray dogs consented to pay a penalty for their misdirected compassion we should be free from the curse of stray dogs.”

             

            “Humanity is a noble attribute of the soul. It is not exhausted with saving a few dogs or a few fish; such saving may even be sinful. If I have a swarm of ants in my house, the man who proceeds to feed them will be guilty of a sin…. The Mahajan may feel itself safe and believe that it has saved their lives by dumping dogs near my field but it will have committed the greater sin of putting my life in danger.”

            regards

            Dr Clarence Samuel




          • Clarence Samuel
            Dear Dr Shrivastava the links are http://www.karmayog.com/dogs/gandhijiletter.htm
            Message 7 of 9 , Feb 21, 2012
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              Dear Dr Shrivastava
              the links are
              http://www.karmayog.com/dogs/gandhijiletter.htm

              http://www.indianexpress.com/news/even-gandhi-approved-of-killing-stray-dogs/436032/

              sincere regards

              Dr. Clarence Samuel

            • Jugal Kishore
              Dear Clarence Samuel This is indeed an interesting conversation and evidence of type of non-violence of Mahatma. This logic and thoughts which is neither
              Message 8 of 9 , Feb 21, 2012
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                Dear Clarence Samuel

                This is indeed an interesting conversation and evidence of type of non-violence of Mahatma. This logic and thoughts which is neither showing humanity nor civilization which supports living and non living environment. Not surprisingly similar principles were equally apply to human beings also for example, decision taken to hang Bhagat Singh before the assigned date, sending Indian troops to World war, accepting partition leading to biggest bloodshed, accepting caste system of Hindu religion as Supreme religious order. Mahatma could never thought of scientific development of vaccine and treatment of diseases person or animal. Euthanasia can be supported according to his logic but humanity and scientific world will continue to debate ethical issues related to killing the person who is dying slowly.

                Thank you Clarence for sending the link regarding the views expressed by Mahatma Gandhi on stray dog. 
                       

                On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 10:54 PM, Clarence Samuel <clarencejs@...> wrote:



                --
                *Prof. Jugal Kishore*
                MBBS, MD, PGDCHFWM, PGDEE, MSc., FIAPSM, FIPHA, FAMS,
                Deptt.Community Medicine, Maulana Azad Medical College, New Delhi,
                India
                Phone: 09968604249, 09582792331
                Please visit for more details: http://drjugalkishore.blogspot.com

                Advisory Member of *International Mental Health Collaboration Network
                (IMHCN)*
                Editor: Journal of Nursing Science and Practice, Research Review: Journal of Health Professionals, Journal of Energy, Environment and Carbon Credit 
                President (Hony): Kishore Foundations, Sabasva Foundation,
                Associated: *Institute of Science and Human Values* 

                Author of following books:
                National Health Programs of India: National Policies and Legislations
                related to health
                A Dictionary of Public Health
                Practical and Viva of Community Medicine
                Question Bank Community Medicine
                Textbook of Health Care worker and Midwife 
                A Comprehensive Review of Community Medicine
                Biomedical Waste Management in India
                A Pioneering Social Reformers of India
                Great Warriers of Human Rights Movement From India
                Vanishing Girl Child
                Living With out God
                Bhavnayen (An anthology of poems in Hindi)

                For my books please Visit http://centurypublications.co.in
                or contact: 09868010950


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