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CMS: What do they do well - and what do they still need to do

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  • mikejaixen
    Perhaps to kick start this group again, I d like to get some thoughts about content management systems. I often think of the old line: Can t live with them,
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 22, 2003
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      Perhaps to kick start this group again, I'd like to get some thoughts
      about content management systems.

      I often think of the old line: "Can't live with them, and can't live
      without 'em!"

      While I think these products have nailed the problems with creating
      and managing individual pages on web sites, they are sorely lacking in
      their ability to handle an entire site. There are lots of tools out
      there that can help, but I think we're still having to put up with too
      much "duct tape" to upll everything together.
    • David Heller
      Can you give examples of what is sitemanagement vs. content management? -- dave ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder -
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 22, 2003
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        Can you give examples of what is sitemanagement vs.
        content management?
        -- dave


        --- mikejaixen <mikejaixen@...> wrote:
        > Perhaps to kick start this group again, I'd like to
        > get some thoughts
        > about content management systems.
        >
        > I often think of the old line: "Can't live with
        > them, and can't live
        > without 'em!"
        >
        > While I think these products have nailed the
        > problems with creating
        > and managing individual pages on web sites, they are
        > sorely lacking in
        > their ability to handle an entire site. There are
        > lots of tools out
        > there that can help, but I think we're still having
        > to put up with too
        > much "duct tape" to upll everything together.
        >
        >


        __________________________________
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        Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
        http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
      • mikejaixen
        My view of content management is that it should include site management features - but I haven t seen a lot of good examples of it. My view point is that
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 23, 2003
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          My view of content management is that it should include site
          management features - but I haven't seen a lot of good examples of it.
          My view point is that content management systems are adept at
          allowing users to create and update web pages, and post them to a web
          site. However, they are less adept at taking that new content and
          updating the navigation on the site in the appropriate spot. Most of
          the time, it appears to be a manual process.

          In my vision of what a content management system should do, it would
          contain an automated inventory of all of the content, which would
          include all of the information that IA's typically collect manually
          through a site audit. It would then give you tools to work with that
          content inventory and update/regenerate navigation as necessary.

          Primarily, content authors would provide enough metadata that this
          content inventory could be automatically updated with new content and
          regenerate the necessary site navigation automatically. (If I were to
          dream further, IA's would have the tools necessary to later revamp,
          reorganize, and update the navigation en masse as the site evolves.)

          Sure, we have little point solutions here and there that meet some of
          these needs. But I don't see a total solution - or even a framework
          for building a solution - from vendors.

          Perhaps I've looked at the wrong vendors. In the past, I've heard
          "you can do it" and found out that really "you can build it yourself
          if you need it".


          --- In ia-cms-l@yahoogroups.com, David Heller <bolinhanyc@y...> wrote:
          > Can you give examples of what is sitemanagement vs.
          > content management?
          > -- dave
        • melanie.kendell
          mike wrote: ... In my vision a content management system manages content for several delivery methods, not just websites. I agree a *web*
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 23, 2003
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            mike wrote:

            <snip>
            > In my vision of what a content management system should do, it would
            > contain an automated inventory of all of the content, which would
            > include all of the information that IA's typically collect manually
            > through a site audit. It would then give you tools to work with that
            > content inventory and update/regenerate navigation as necessary.
            </snip>

            In my vision a content management system manages content for several
            delivery methods, not just websites. I agree a *web* content
            management system should manage content at both page and site level.

            A *content* management system should allow you to manage content at a
            topic and "document" level even if that "document" is actually an
            online help system.

            I know IA is mostly concerned with web delivery, and while that pays
            the bills that's fine, but I would like to see and use a more holistic
            view where the requirements for information are analysed at a higher
            level and the best way to communicate the information is implemented -
            which may be through a website, but may include other avenues or
            combinations of approaches all of which should be able to be sourced
            from the content contained in a content management system.

            -Melanie Kendell
          • David Heller
            Hi Mike, Please take another look @ documentum (everyone I am no longer an employee of DCTM) they have a wonderful addition to their Web Publisher application
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 23, 2003
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              Hi Mike,

              Please take another look @ documentum (everyone I am no longer an
              employee of DCTM) they have a wonderful addition to their Web
              Publisher application called Content Intelligence Services. OK, I was
              not in product marketing there, so I didn't come up w/ the name, but
              this is basically a robust engine for taxonomy and meta data
              management and if I understand Mike correctly it is the engine for
              mike to do exactly what he needs.

              Now here's the trick. There is no magic here. Someone has to configure
              this puppy. Someone has to create the taxonomical structure. Nothing
              can do this for you. Nothing is going to do your job for you. If they
              claim it does, they are lying.

              But what tools like CIS do for you is manage it for you after the fact
              and help you apply your work to the content you previously created and
              will create.

              -- dave

              mikejaixen <mikejaixen@...> wrote:
              > My view of content management is that it should include site
              > management features - but I haven't seen a lot of good examples of it.
              > My view point is that content management systems are adept at
              > allowing users to create and update web pages, and post them to a web
              > site. However, they are less adept at taking that new content and
              > updating the navigation on the site in the appropriate spot. Most of
              > the time, it appears to be a manual process.
              >
              > In my vision of what a content management system should do, it would
              > contain an automated inventory of all of the content, which would
              > include all of the information that IA's typically collect manually
              > through a site audit. It would then give you tools to work with that
              > content inventory and update/regenerate navigation as necessary.
              >
              > Primarily, content authors would provide enough metadata that this
              > content inventory could be automatically updated with new content and
              > regenerate the necessary site navigation automatically. (If I were to
              > dream further, IA's would have the tools necessary to later revamp,
              > reorganize, and update the navigation en masse as the site evolves.)
              >
              > Sure, we have little point solutions here and there that meet some of
              > these needs. But I don't see a total solution - or even a framework
              > for building a solution - from vendors.
              >
              > Perhaps I've looked at the wrong vendors. In the past, I've heard
              > "you can do it" and found out that really "you can build it yourself
              > if you need it".
            • Marcia Morante
              Dave - I m trying to understand CIS a little better. Perhaps you can help me. You mentioned that CIS does not generate a taxonomy but categorizes documents
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 24, 2003
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                Dave -

                I'm trying to understand CIS a little better. Perhaps you can help me. You
                mentioned that CIS does not generate a taxonomy but categorizes documents
                based on the taxonomy and rules that a user provides Correct so far?

                What about meta data? Does it have a facility similar to Interwoven's
                Metatagger for extracting different types of nouns or noun phrases (country
                names, ticker symbols, company names, etc.)? Does it have other types of
                meta data extraction capabilities?

                Thanks for your help.

                Marcia Morante
                KCurve, Inc.
                (718)881-5915 - office
                (917)821-2087 - mobile
                http://kcurve.com
                Effective Content Management for the Web


                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: David Heller [mailto:bolinhanyc@...]
                > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 11:31 PM
                > To: ia-cms-l@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [ia-cms-l] Re: CMS: What do they do well - and what do they
                > still need to do
                >
                >
                > Hi Mike,
                >
                > Please take another look @ documentum (everyone I am no longer an
                > employee of DCTM) they have a wonderful addition to their Web
                > Publisher application called Content Intelligence Services. OK, I was
                > not in product marketing there, so I didn't come up w/ the name, but
                > this is basically a robust engine for taxonomy and meta data
                > management and if I understand Mike correctly it is the engine for
                > mike to do exactly what he needs.
                >
                > Now here's the trick. There is no magic here. Someone has to configure
                > this puppy. Someone has to create the taxonomical structure. Nothing
                > can do this for you. Nothing is going to do your job for you. If they
                > claim it does, they are lying.
                >
                > But what tools like CIS do for you is manage it for you after the fact
                > and help you apply your work to the content you previously created and
                > will create.
                >
                > -- dave
              • mikejaixen
                Tools like this (or Interwoven s MetaTagger) appear to have a great deal of power to help categorize content. But they essentially stop after the content is
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 24, 2003
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                  Tools like this (or Interwoven's MetaTagger) appear to have a great
                  deal of power to help categorize content. But they essentially stop
                  after the content is categorized in the repository.

                  They still lack the tools that allow me to export that metadata into a
                  navigable web site, except through <META> tags that can be utilized by
                  search.

                  Perhaps CIS is different (we looked at Documentum until they cancelled
                  on us), but I still haven't seen the power to take that metadata and
                  taxonomy, and push out the structure of a web site. It's very
                  disappointing to see much of the information I need buried deep inside
                  the CMS, and no way to easily pull that information out.

                  (As for the comment on being web centric, I plead guilty as charged.
                  But I don't know that the need to be able to maintain a web IA of
                  content is any different than the need to be able to maintain any
                  other organization of content. The difference is merely the publication.)

                  --- In ia-cms-l@yahoogroups.com, David Heller <bolinhanyc@y...> wrote:
                  > Hi Mike,
                  >
                  > Please take another look @ documentum (everyone I am no longer an
                  > employee of DCTM) they have a wonderful addition to their Web
                  > Publisher application called Content Intelligence Services. OK, I was
                  > not in product marketing there, so I didn't come up w/ the name, but
                  > this is basically a robust engine for taxonomy and meta data
                  > management and if I understand Mike correctly it is the engine for
                  > mike to do exactly what he needs.
                  >
                  > Now here's the trick. There is no magic here. Someone has to configure
                  > this puppy. Someone has to create the taxonomical structure. Nothing
                  > can do this for you. Nothing is going to do your job for you. If they
                  > claim it does, they are lying.
                  >
                  > But what tools like CIS do for you is manage it for you after the fact
                  > and help you apply your work to the content you previously created and
                  > will create.
                  >
                  > -- dave
                • David Heller
                  Of course you can export the metadata into whatever you want. The metadata is housed in the host server as a database so the app server can query against it,
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 25, 2003
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                    Of course you can export the metadata into whatever
                    you want. The metadata is housed in the host server as
                    a database so the app server can query against it, or
                    you can export the meta data and the category
                    structure as an XML file and deal w/ it that way.

                    The tool does have some work to do in this area, but
                    I'm sure you can get started right now w/ what you
                    need. Why? b/c I helped design it. ;)

                    -- dave

                    --- mikejaixen <mikejaixen@...> wrote:
                    > Tools like this (or Interwoven's MetaTagger) appear to have a great
                    > deal of power to help categorize content. But they essentially stop
                    > after the content is categorized in the repository.
                    >
                    > They still lack the tools that allow me to export that metadata into
                    > a navigable web site, except through <META> tags that can be
                    > utilized by search.
                    >
                    > Perhaps CIS is different (we looked at Documentum until they
                    > cancelled on us), but I still haven't seen the power to take that
                    > metadata and taxonomy, and push out the structure of a web site.
                    > It's very disappointing to see much of the information I need buried
                    > deep inside the CMS, and no way to easily pull that information out.
                    >
                    > (As for the comment on being web centric, I plead guilty as charged.
                    > But I don't know that the need to be able to maintain a web IA of
                    > content is any different than the need to be able to maintain any
                    > other organization of content. The difference is merely the
                    > publication.)
                  • David Heller
                    To be honest, I m less familiiar w/ the metadata piece than the taxonomy piece. But my understanding is that you create rules for what it should use for
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 25, 2003
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                      To be honest, I'm less familiiar w/ the metadata piece
                      than the taxonomy piece. But my understanding is that
                      you create rules for what it should use for metadata
                      and how to apply that metadata to the content as it is
                      generated.

                      As for the taxonomy piece, you basically got it.

                      -- dave

                      --- Marcia Morante <marcia@...> wrote:
                      > Dave -
                      >
                      > I'm trying to understand CIS a little better. Perhaps you can help
                      > me. You mentioned that CIS does not generate a taxonomy but
                      > categorizes documents based on the taxonomy and rules that a user
                      > provides
                      >
                      > Correct so far?
                      >
                      > What about meta data? Does it have a facility similar to
                      > Interwoven's Metatagger for extracting different types of nouns or
                      > noun phrases (country names, ticker symbols, company names, etc.)?
                      > Does it have other types of meta data extraction capabilities?
                      >
                      > Thanks for your help.
                      >
                      > Marcia Morante
                      > KCurve, Inc.
                    • mikejaixen
                      Perhaps Documentum did it right, but what about other vendors? (Not an I know that Interwoven, Vignette, and Stellent all have content classification services,
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 26, 2003
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                        Perhaps Documentum did it right, but what about other vendors? (Not an
                        I know that Interwoven, Vignette, and Stellent all have content
                        classification services, but I don't think they have anything that
                        help structure the web site around those classifications. It seems
                        that most of these services focus on search instead of browsing.

                        --- In ia-cms-l@yahoogroups.com, David Heller <bolinhanyc@y...> wrote:
                        > Of course you can export the metadata into whatever
                        > you want. The metadata is housed in the host server as
                        > a database so the app server can query against it, or
                        > you can export the meta data and the category
                        > structure as an XML file and deal w/ it that way.
                        >
                        > The tool does have some work to do in this area, but
                        > I'm sure you can get started right now w/ what you
                        > need. Why? b/c I helped design it. ;)
                        >
                        > -- dave
                      • Bev Corwin
                        Yes, I agree, like single source management, etc. and as many integrated output formats as possible. Bev ... ===== Bev Corwin PO Box 77614 Seattle, WA 98177
                        Message 11 of 11 , Sep 27, 2003
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                          Yes, I agree, like single source management, etc. and
                          as many integrated output formats as possible.

                          Bev

                          --- "melanie.kendell" <melanie.kendell@...>
                          wrote:
                          > In my vision a content management system manages
                          > content for several
                          > delivery methods, not just websites. I agree a *web*
                          > content
                          > management system should manage content at both page
                          > and site level.


                          =====
                          Bev Corwin
                          PO Box 77614
                          Seattle, WA 98177 USA
                          Telephone: 206.728.2232
                          Facsimile: 206.728.2262
                          Mobile: 206.390.0743
                          eMail: bevcorwin@...

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