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RE: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water balance

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  • Franco Montalto
    I have this... but it is not digital, and is about 100 pages. Franco
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 1, 2009
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      I have this... but it is not digital, and is about 100 pages.

      Franco


      > To: hydforum@yahoogroups.com
      > From: fmarcuzzo@...
      > Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:35:21 -0300
      > Subject: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water balance
      >
      > Hi everybody!
      >
      > Please, somebody have the paper (in digital format): THORNTHWAITE,
      > C.W.; MATHER, J.R. The water balance. Publications in Climatology. New
      > Jersey, Drexel Institute of Technology, 104p. 1955. ?
      > Could send me a digital format?
      >
      > Thanks a lot for your attention!
      >
      > Best regards from Brazil!
    • ritu ahlawat
      I have it but its not in digital format. ... From: Francisco Marcuzzo Subject: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
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        I have it but its not in digital format.


        --- On Wed, 2/18/09, Francisco Marcuzzo <fmarcuzzo@...> wrote:

        From: Francisco Marcuzzo <fmarcuzzo@...>
        Subject: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water balance
        To: hydforum@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 11:05 PM

        Hi everybody!

        Please, somebody have the paper (in digital format): THORNTHWAITE,
        C.W.; MATHER, J.R. The water balance. Publications in Climatology. New
        Jersey, Drexel Institute of Technology, 104p. 1955. ?
        Could send me a digital format?

        Thanks a lot for your attention!

        Best regards from Brazil!
      • Francisco Marcuzzo
        Montalto, thanks for your attention. 100 pages? I think that is dificult to find a digital paper of Thornthwaite & Mather (1955). I´m trying to find this
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
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          Montalto,

          thanks for your attention. 100 pages? I think that is dificult to find a
          digital paper of Thornthwaite & Mather (1955).
          I´m trying to find this paper for a long time in the library and internet.
          Just you answer me, thanks again.

          Best regards!


          2009/3/1 Franco Montalto <fmontalto@...>

          > I have this... but it is not digital, and is about 100 pages.
          >
          > Franco
          >
          >
          > > To: hydforum@yahoogroups.com <hydforum%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > From: fmarcuzzo@... <fmarcuzzo%40gmail.com>
          > > Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:35:21 -0300
          > > Subject: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water
          > balance
          > >
          > > Hi everybody!
          > >
          > > Please, somebody have the paper (in digital format): THORNTHWAITE,
          > > C.W.; MATHER, J.R. The water balance. Publications in Climatology. New
          > > Jersey, Drexel Institute of Technology, 104p. 1955. ?
          > > Could send me a digital format?
          > >
          > > Thanks a lot for your attention!
          > >
          > > Best regards from Brazil!
        • ashoke basistha
          Dear Monalto,   I was also in search of the paper for a long time. Can you kindly suggest how / where form I can get a copy. Thanks With Best Regards, Ashoke
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
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            Dear Monalto,
             
            I was also in search of the paper for a long time. Can you kindly suggest how / where form I can get a copy. Thanks

            With Best Regards,

            Ashoke Basistha
            Lecturer,
            Department of Natural Resources,
            TERI University,
            10, Institutional Area,
            Vasant Kunj,
            New Delhi- 110 070.


            --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Francisco Marcuzzo <fmarcuzzo@...> wrote:

            From: Francisco Marcuzzo <fmarcuzzo@...>
            Subject: Re: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water balanc
            To: hydforum@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 5:47 PM

            Montalto,

            thanks for your attention. 100 pages? I think that is dificult to find a
            digital paper of Thornthwaite & Mather (1955).
            I´m trying to find this paper for a long time in the library and internet.
            Just you answer me, thanks again.

            Best regards!

            2009/3/1 Franco Montalto <fmontalto@hotmail. com>

            > I have this... but it is not digital, and is about 100 pages.
            >
            > Franco
            >
            >
            > > To: hydforum@yahoogroup s.com <hydforum%40yahoogr oups.com>
            > > From: fmarcuzzo@gmail. com <fmarcuzzo%40gmail. com>
            > > Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:35:21 -0300
            > > Subject: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water
            > balance
            > >
            > > Hi everybody!
            > >
            > > Please, somebody have the paper (in digital format): THORNTHWAITE,
            > > C.W.; MATHER, J.R. The water balance. Publications in Climatology. New
            > > Jersey, Drexel Institute of Technology, 104p. 1955. ?
            > > Could send me a digital format?
            > >
            > > Thanks a lot for your attention!
            > >
            > > Best regards from Brazil!
          • Venkat Kolluru
            Hi all, Is it possible to scan the document and make a pdf? Also, I am proposing an idea of keeping a reference database in the forum where we can keep a pdf
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
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              Hi all,

              Is it possible to scan the document and make a pdf?
              Also, I am proposing an idea of keeping a reference database in the forum where we can keep a pdf copy
              of important papers for group to use it.

              Venkat


              ________________________________
              From: hydforum@yahoogroups.com [hydforum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Franco Montalto [fmontalto@...]
              Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 6:44 PM
              To: hydforum@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water balance


              I have this... but it is not digital, and is about 100 pages.

              Franco


              > To: hydforum@yahoogroups.com<mailto:hydforum%40yahoogroups.com>
              > From: fmarcuzzo@...<mailto:fmarcuzzo%40gmail.com>
              > Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:35:21 -0300
              > Subject: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water balance
              >
              > Hi everybody!
              >
              > Please, somebody have the paper (in digital format): THORNTHWAITE,
              > C.W.; MATHER, J.R. The water balance. Publications in Climatology. New
              > Jersey, Drexel Institute of Technology, 104p. 1955. ?
              > Could send me a digital format?
              >
              > Thanks a lot for your attention!
              >
              > Best regards from Brazil!
            • Pradip Sengupta
              Dear all   The idea is good.   A software based on the model is available at this link  
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
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                Dear all
                 
                The idea is good.
                 
                A software based on the model is available at this link
                 
                http://wwwbrr.cr.usgs.gov/projects/SW_MoWS/software/thorn_s/thorn.shtml
                 
                P K Sengupta


                --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Venkat Kolluru <venkat.kolluru@...> wrote:

                From: Venkat Kolluru <venkat.kolluru@...>
                Subject: RE: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water balance
                To: "hydforum@yahoogroups.com" <hydforum@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 8:42 PM

                Hi all,

                Is it possible to scan the document and make a pdf?
                Also, I am proposing an idea of keeping a reference database in the forum where we can keep a pdf copy
                of important papers for group to use it.

                Venkat

                ____________ _________ _________ __
                From: hydforum@yahoogroup s.com [hydforum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Franco Montalto [fmontalto@hotmail. com]
                Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 6:44 PM
                To: hydforum@yahoogroup s.com
                Subject: RE: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water balance

                I have this... but it is not digital, and is about 100 pages.

                Franco

                > To: hydforum@yahoogroup s.com<mailto:hydforum% 40yahoogroups. com>
                > From: fmarcuzzo@gmail. com<mailto:fmarcuzzo% 40gmail.com>
                > Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:35:21 -0300
                > Subject: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water balance
                >
                > Hi everybody!
                >
                > Please, somebody have the paper (in digital format): THORNTHWAITE,
                > C.W.; MATHER, J.R. The water balance. Publications in Climatology. New
                > Jersey, Drexel Institute of Technology, 104p. 1955. ?
                > Could send me a digital format?
                >
                > Thanks a lot for your attention!
                >
                > Best regards from Brazil!
              • Francisco Marcuzzo
                Kolluru, it´s a good idea, but scan the document with 100 pages is a hard work. But... Regards! Francisco Marcuzzo 2009/3/2 Venkat Kolluru
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 3, 2009
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                  Kolluru,

                  it´s a good idea, but scan the document with 100 pages is a hard work.
                  But...

                  Regards!
                  Francisco Marcuzzo



                  2009/3/2 Venkat Kolluru <venkat.kolluru@...>

                  > Hi all,
                  >
                  > Is it possible to scan the document and make a pdf?
                  > Also, I am proposing an idea of keeping a reference database in the forum
                  > where we can keep a pdf copy
                  > of important papers for group to use it.
                  >
                  > Venkat
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: hydforum@yahoogroups.com <hydforum%40yahoogroups.com> [
                  > hydforum@yahoogroups.com <hydforum%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Franco
                  > Montalto [fmontalto@... <fmontalto%40hotmail.com>]
                  > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 6:44 PM
                  > To: hydforum@yahoogroups.com <hydforum%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: RE: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water
                  > balance
                  >
                  > I have this... but it is not digital, and is about 100 pages.
                  >
                  > Franco
                  >
                  > > To: hydforum@yahoogroups.com <hydforum%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                  > hydforum%40yahoogroups.com <hydforum%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                  > > From: fmarcuzzo@... <fmarcuzzo%40gmail.com><mailto:
                  > fmarcuzzo%40gmail.com <fmarcuzzo%2540gmail.com>>
                  > > Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:35:21 -0300
                  > > Subject: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water
                  > balance
                  > - Mostrar texto das mensagens anteriores -
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Hi everybody!
                  > >
                  > > Please, somebody have the paper (in digital format): THORNTHWAITE,
                  > > C.W.; MATHER, J.R. The water balance. Publications in Climatology. New
                  > > Jersey, Drexel Institute of Technology, 104p. 1955. ?
                  > > Could send me a digital format?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks a lot for your attention!
                  > >
                  > > Best regards from Brazil!
                • jedanmir
                  Hello dear forum memebers, I am new, my name is ČADRO Sabrija, I am Irrigation specialist from the Bosna and Herzegovina. Me too, want to find this paper!
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 21, 2012
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                    Hello dear forum memebers,

                    I am new, my name is ČADRO Sabrija, I am Irrigation specialist from the Bosna and Herzegovina.
                    Me too, want to find this paper! But I cant find it on internet (even 3 years after last post), anybody else know where to find it?
                    The main question that I want to find out is: can I use ETo (Penman-Montheit - Reference Evapotranspiration) insted of PET in Thornthwaite water balance?
                    It is almost same (ETo = PET) but i cant find paper that use this approach.

                    Thanks, all the best

                    Sabrija Čadro


                    > > > From: fmarcuzzo@... <fmarcuzzo%40gmail.com><mailto:
                    > > fmarcuzzo%40gmail.com <fmarcuzzo%2540gmail.com>>
                    > > > Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:35:21 -0300
                    > > > Subject: [hydforum] Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water
                    > > balance
                    > > - Mostrar texto das mensagens anteriores -
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi everybody!
                    > > >
                    > > > Please, somebody have the paper (in digital format): THORNTHWAITE,
                    > > > C.W.; MATHER, J.R. The water balance. Publications in Climatology. New
                    > > > Jersey, Drexel Institute of Technology, 104p. 1955. ?
                    > > > Could send me a digital format?
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks a lot for your attention!
                    > > >
                    > > > Best regards from Brazil!
                    >
                  • subrata halder
                    Hallo Sabrija, You can use ET (or AET- Actual Evapotranspiration) =PET , when Available Soil Moisture(ASM) will be at the Field Capacity(FC). Otherwise, you
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 21, 2012
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                      Hallo Sabrija,

                      You can use ET (or AET- Actual Evapotranspiration) =PET , when Available Soil Moisture(ASM) will be at the Field Capacity(FC). Otherwise, you must have to use PET in 
                      Thornthwaite Formula.

                      Thanks
                      Subrata Halder

                      B.E.(Civil),
                      M.C.E.(Geotechnical Engg.), M.Tech.(Hydrology)

                      Executive Engineer(Agri-Irrigation)
                      State Water Investigation Directorate
                      Department of Water Resources Investigation &
                      Development
                      Govt. of West Bengal, INDIA


                      --- On Tue, 21/2/12, jedanmir <jedanmir@...> wrote:

                      From: jedanmir <jedanmir@...>
                      Subject: [hydforum] Re: Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water balance
                      To: hydforum@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Tuesday, 21 February, 2012, 9:19 PM

                      Hello dear forum memebers,

                      I am new, my name is ČADRO Sabrija, I am Irrigation specialist from the Bosna and Herzegovina.

                      Me too, want to find this paper! But I cant find it on internet (even 3 years after last post), anybody else know where to find it?

                      The main question that I want to find out is: can I use ETo (Penman-Montheit - Reference Evapotranspiration) insted of PET in Thornthwaite water balance?

                      It is almost same (ETo = PET) but i cant find paper that use this approach.

                      Thanks, all the best

                      Sabrija Čadro
                    • jedanmir
                      As you all now, there is a lot of concepts of calculating ET. This evapotranspiration we can call max-evapotranspiration (Evapotranspiration from: referent
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 22, 2012
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                        As you all now, there is a lot of concepts of calculating ET.
                        This evapotranspiration we can call max-evapotranspiration (Evapotranspiration from: referent crop, in good health, covered the entire surface, enough water, limited only by atmosphere energy...).
                        1. You can calculate PET (with formulas like Turc, Priestley-Taylor, Thornthwaite) and use it in water balance of Thornthwaite-Mather (or W.C.Palmer water balance) to gain: runoff, deficit, AET (ETa - actual evapotranspiration)
                        2. Also you can calculate referent evapotranspiration ETo (with Penman, or Penman-Montheith which is nowadays recognized as best and standard formula), put it in models (like Aquacrop, CROPWAT) and get runoff, deficit, AET.

                        But In the water balance of Thornthwaite-Mather, they use PET calculated by means of Thornthwaite equation, so the question is: can this PET be replaced with the ETo!

                        For the Palmer water balance I did find papers that use ETo (Penman-M.) instead of PET (Thornthwaite) that was originally used by Palmer.

                        Personally I think it is possible to use ETo (Penman-Montaith) instead of PET in Thornthwaite-Mather water balance (TMWB) but I can't find any papers that use it.
                        Also I think it is possible to use ETc (Crop Evapotranspiration) in TMWB to see specific water needs of different crops (deficit, Net Irrigation...), true?

                        Maybe Thornthwaite said in his paper from 1955, something about this, because the Penman equation already existed in that time (same as Thornthwite formula from 1948).

                        Thanks, all the best

                        Sabrija


                        --- In hydforum@yahoogroups.com, subrata halder <shalder_2007@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hallo Sabrija,
                        >
                        > You can use ET (or AET- Actual Evapotranspiration) =PET , when Available Soil Moisture(ASM) will be at the Field Capacity(FC). Otherwise, you must have to use PET in 
                        > Thornthwaite Formula.
                        >
                        > Thanks
                        > Subrata Halder
                        >
                        > B.E.(Civil),
                        > M.C.E.(Geotechnical Engg.), M.Tech.(Hydrology)
                        >
                        > Executive Engineer(Agri-Irrigation)
                        > State Water Investigation Directorate
                        > Department of Water Resources Investigation &
                        > Development
                        > Govt. of West Bengal, INDIA
                        >
                        >
                        > --- On Tue, 21/2/12, jedanmir <jedanmir@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: jedanmir <jedanmir@...>
                        > Subject: [hydforum] Re: Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water balance
                        > To: hydforum@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Tuesday, 21 February, 2012, 9:19 PM
                        >
                        > Hello dear forum memebers,
                        >
                        > I am new, my name is ČADRO Sabrija, I am Irrigation specialist from the Bosna and Herzegovina.
                        >
                        > Me too, want to find this paper! But I cant find it on internet (even 3 years after last post), anybody else know where to find it?
                        >
                        > The main question that I want to find out is: can I use ETo (Penman-Montheit - Reference Evapotranspiration) insted of PET in Thornthwaite water balance?
                        >
                        > It is almost same (ETo = PET) but i cant find paper that use this approach.
                        >
                        > Thanks, all the best
                        >
                        > Sabrija Čadro
                        >
                      • subrata halder
                        Hallo! Sabrija If you want to compute PET considering different type crops in an area, you have to use Blaney-Criddle Formula: PET= 2.54*K*F, K-coefficient
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 22, 2012
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                          Hallo! Sabrija

                          If you want to compute PET considering different type crops in an area, you have to use Blaney-Criddle Formula: PET= 2.54*K*F, K-coefficient dependent on type of crop, F=Σ(Ph*Tf)/100, (Ph-monthly % of annual day time hours, Tf- mean monthly temperature(˚F).

                          Thanks
                          Subrata Halder

                                     B.E.(Civil),
                          M.C.E.(Geotechnical Engg.), M.Tech.(Hydrology)

                          Executive Engineer(Agri-Irrigation)

                          State Water Investigation Directorate

                          Department of Water Resources Investigation &
                          Development

                          Govt. of West Bengal, INDIA
                        • Wilsnack, Mark
                          Folks: As I understand it, the Blaney-Criddle method is highly empirical and was originally intended for irrigation design projects in the southwest U.S. How
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 23, 2012
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                            Folks:

                            As I understand it, the Blaney-Criddle method is highly empirical and was originally intended for irrigation design projects in the southwest U.S. How reliable is it for your application? The Penman-Monteith method is more physically based for computing reference ET and should be more universally applicable.

                            mark


                            From: hydforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hydforum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of subrata halder
                            Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:32 AM
                            To: hydforum@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [hydforum] Re: Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water balance

                            Hallo! Sabrija

                            If you want to compute PET considering different type crops in an area, you have to use Blaney-Criddle Formula: PET= 2.54*K*F, K-coefficient dependent on type of crop, F=Σ(Ph*Tf)/100, (Ph-monthly % of annual day time hours, Tf- mean monthly temperature(˚F).

                            Thanks
                            Subrata Halder
                          • Rakesh KN
                            Hi all, To add to Mark s comment, the most of the other methods of PET estimation (like turc, thorntwaite) have the input variable of temperature only (of
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 23, 2012
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                              Hi all,

                              To add to Mark's comment, the most of the other methods of PET estimation (like turc, thorntwaite) have the input variable of temperature only (of course geographical correction for some), but Penman-Monteith method incorporated all the climatic factors like temp, humidity, wind, altitude and geographical location. So it is more reliable.

                              Rakesh


                              ________________________________
                              From: "Wilsnack, Mark" <mwilsnac@...>
                              To: "'hydforum@yahoogroups.com'" <hydforum@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, 23 February 2012 7:11 PM
                              Subject: [hydforum] Re: Paper of THORNTHWAITE & MATHER, 1955, about water balance

                              Folks:

                              As I understand it, the Blaney-Criddle method is highly empirical and was originally intended for irrigation design projects in the southwest U.S. How reliable is it for your application? The Penman-Monteith method is more physically based for computing reference ET and should be more universally applicable.

                              mark
                            • subrata halder
                              Hallo! Penman-Monteith method is the best method for computation of PET but Blaney-Criddle method considers an empirical coefficient(K), which is dependent
                              Message 14 of 15 , Feb 24, 2012
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                                Hallo!

                                Penman-Monteith method is the best method for computation of PET but Blaney-Criddle method considers an empirical coefficient(K), which is dependent of different types of crops & a monthly consumptive use factor (F). So computation of PET in a crop growing season for an area covered with different types of crops irrigation engineers favour this method.

                                S. Halder
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