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Re: HUM_FORUM: Tests

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  • Phil Strong
    Hi, I thought we were talking about the pressure of the wind as in a pitot tube, not the remote chance of the cave becoming a low frequency didgeridoo ! We
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 2, 2006
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      Hi,
       
      I thought we were talking about the pressure of the wind as in a pitot tube, not the remote chance of the cave becoming
      a low frequency didgeridoo !   We have lost sight of the point being made, which was the assertion that the hum is not audible in a cave.
      All I'm saying is that since I hear the hum everywhere else it is reasonable to suggest I would hear it in a cave.
      So we are attempting to falsify this theory that the hum cannot be heard deep underground.
      It is therefore is the lack of a hum which we are after, as supporting evidence that the hum is external, even if it was noisy down there (and I know it isn;t)
       I think the chances of a wind induced hum of a similar nature is remote, I hope that finally makes sense !!
       
      Phil
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: A &J M
      Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 3:34 PM
      Subject: RE: HUM_FORUM: Tests

      I disagree. See
      http://www.nrc. gov/reading- rm/doc-collectio ns/nuregs/ staff/sr1437/ supplement
      16/sr1437s16b. pdf (p 122) for the effects of steam "blowing" across a "pipe"
      in steam piping (like blowing over the top of a bottle). The effect is
      similar to the large pipes in an organ. In this case, the standing wave
      that was set up in the system severely damaged components UPSTREAM of the
      pipe.

      Arne
      Central Minnesota

      ____________ _________ _________ __

      From: humforum@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:humforum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf
      Of Phil Strong

      Kallio,

      I understand your point, but the pitot effect is quite small even in a
      strong wind, it is outweighed by altitude.
      It should be possible to hear the hum under these circumstances I think.
      Has somebody tried a pressure chamber this would be interesting, I might be
      able to get use of the hyperbaric chamber
      if I ask.

      Phil


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    • Tobypaws2002@aol.com
      In a message dated 03/11/2006 06:36:40 GMT Standard Time, phil.strong@clear.net.nz writes: Hi, I thought we were talking about the pressure of the wind as in
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 3, 2006
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        In a message dated 03/11/2006 06:36:40 GMT Standard Time, phil.strong@... writes:

        Hi,
         
        I thought we were talking about the pressure of the wind as in a pitot tube, not the remote chance of the cave becoming
        a low frequency didgeridoo !   We have lost sight of the point being made, which was the assertion that the hum is not audible in a cave.
        All I'm saying is that since I hear the hum everywhere else it is reasonable to suggest I would hear it in a cave.
        All I'm saying is that since I hear the hum everywhere else it is reasonable to
         
        (R.M. here : that's why you need to test it ! You need to go in a cave, one you can be pretty sure is shielded from above-ground noises : I went deep into Wookey Hole caves in Somerset, with 2 pals, and we lagged behind the tour party, till they were gone, (with their chatter and shuffling), so that we could listen in silence.
        It says something to me that the party had not been gone long when there was perfect silence. So I think noises from much further away, i.e., up the steps and round twisting solid rock passgaes, would have difficulty getting right down deep.
         
        So we are attempting to falsify this theory that the hum cannot be heard deep underground.
        (I would hope that the object was more to test whether your noise was internal or external to you.
        As I understand it, science is not so much attempting to falsify ideas, as testing to see whether they hold up, which I suppose is the same thing, in a way....just a different way of putting it....yes....I always say, "test against nature", i.e., test it to see if it is so.....but we try not to set out to prove or disprove something, only to find out the truth.
        If possible, take a sensitive sound recorder with you if you CAN get down into a very quiet cave, and see if it picks up any noise).
         
        It is therefore is the lack of a hum which we are after, as supporting evidence that the hum is external, even if it was noisy down there (and I know it isn;t)
        (how do you know it isn't? You have been down there before?
        Great !
        Yes, as you say, this is my 'Caves test', if you hear a noise above ground, then go down deep underground, where it seems quite quiet, and then if you hear nothing at al, you can be pretty sure your noise is not internal to yourself, i.e., not tinnitus. So that gives you a clue where else to look.
        We have to try to find out as much as possible by simple practical tests, what is going on for each person (which might be slightly different, from one person to another...might not all be the same cause/s)
         
         
        I think the chances of a wind induced hum of a similar nature is remote, I hope that finally makes sense !!
         
        Phil
         
        Yes, Phil, well done ! keep at it, we'll get there one day!
        R.M.
        LFNS Helpline, England.
        P.S. everyone, BBC radio ( in U.K. ) has just contacted me again, (I was on the radio briefly this spring) for background information about The Hum,
        I will try to help all I can.
        I have a new, serious case of LFN , just appeared recently, which may be a good example of the stress caused by unrelenting Hums (this person has an identified local nuisance, plus the more mysterious, distant hum, which I suspect may be the famous Bristol Hum.
        R.M.
        =====================================================
      • view_5280
        I raised the original concern. I felt that not hearing the Hum in a cave did not prove that it was external. That test, while contributing information,
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 3, 2006
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          I raised the original concern. I felt that not hearing the Hum in a
          cave did not prove that it was external. That test, while
          contributing information, does not consider all of the possible effects.
          Caves big enough for people to walk through also present resonant
          cavities with openings subject to external influences. It may or may
          not be a factor - we don't know. Since the alternative is the Hum
          being internal, then anything affecting test subject could be a factor
          that affects the Hum.

          The best tests are ones where we can prove that the Hum exists in a
          controlled environment (like your Faraday cage experiment). Good
          tests are ones where we can affect the intensity of the Hum. We start
          with the Hum present, activate the test, and then quantify the intensity
          of the Hum. Repeating the test enhances the reliability of the data.
          But it is very hard to establish the elimination of the Hum, for there
          is always the possibility that the Hum stopped while the test was
          active.

          -- Test idea (an example of experimental design)

          The key to good experiment design is to limit and test all factors that
          might affect the outcome. An example approach, while not perfect, is
          to work with a Hum Buddy. First establish in a blind manner (like a
          pushing a button to log the time) that two people detect the same
          presence/absence of the Hum at the same time. This does not require
          that they hear the same Hum, only that they can both can consistantly
          detect its presence. But it does require a Hum that is not constant
          over time.

          The strength of this test relies in building a strong correlation for
          detecting Hum events between two individuals. The test would need to
          first be done in a single location (say with the parties back to back)
          and then extended to different locations. If the same location shows a
          high degree of correlation and the distance testing does not, then this
          raises the question that the Hum may not be the same in two locations at
          the same time. This is a complicating factor.

          If such a relationship between two hummers can be established with a
          high degree of correlation, over any distance, then one could use one
          person on the surface and one on a mountain top to extend the
          correlation over a variation of altitude. And finally, if the
          correlation is still strong, then one could perfrom the cave test.

          --- Carlsbad Hum gathering.

          This is a good idea. If Hum sufferers gathered in a single place, we
          could gather a lot of information that might help isolate the issue. I
          know we have a database on this group, but if we treated this in the
          manner of a controlled study, then we might improve the quality of our
          information. Background notes, medical histories, etc, could be
          gathered from the participants. Then we could do some audio testing,
          perhaps find some Hum Buddies, and then do a controlled cave test. It
          would take a lot of work to setup and make the data gathering effective.

          Science is a very slow and methodical process. To be effective, one has
          to take themselves out of the experiment. For Hum sufferers, that is
          difficult because we are typically our own test subjects. What we need
          to do is present ourselves to non Hum hearing scientific community to do
          the actual testing and data analysis. Like the researchers in NZ.

          A significant gathering of people would draw media attention. And
          perhaps funding for a formal investigation of the problem. But we have
          to be careful because ...

          --- I want to believe

          If we are going to draw attention to ourselves, then we have to present
          a rational image. We have to make sure that we do not place ourselves
          out near the fringe. It is easy (all too easy) to believe that the Hum
          is part of some mysterious force, some devious government project,
          some aspect of civilization gone awry. Because we are powerless in the
          face of the Hum, we are susceptable to believing that this is something
          being done to us by willful intent, and once exposed, it will stop.

          Conspiracy theory simply does not work. Any large project requires
          collective effort. There have been very very few collective efforts
          that are 100% cohesive in their goals. If any collective effort were
          able to achieve this level of cohesion, then they could make a fortune
          educating the world on how to better work together. The military has
          its deserters, the government its loose lipped buffons, corporations its
          slackers. Ben Franklin said it best - The only way three people can
          keep a secret is if two of them are dead.

          Kallio



          --- In humforum@yahoogroups.com, Phil Strong <phil.strong@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > I thought we were talking about the pressure of the wind as in a pitot
          tube, not the remote chance of the cave becoming
          > a low frequency didgeridoo ! We have lost sight of the point being
          made, which was the assertion that the hum is not audible in a cave.
          > All I'm saying is that since I hear the hum everywhere else it is
          reasonable to suggest I would hear it in a cave.
          > So we are attempting to falsify this theory that the hum cannot be
          heard deep underground.
          > It is therefore is the lack of a hum which we are after, as supporting
          evidence that the hum is external, even if it was noisy down there (and
          I know it isn;t)
          > I think the chances of a wind induced hum of a similar nature is
          remote, I hope that finally makes sense !!
          >
          > Phil
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: A &J M
          > To: humforum@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 3:34 PM
          > Subject: RE: HUM_FORUM: Tests
          >
          >
          > I disagree. See
          >
          http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/nuregs/staff/sr1437/supple\
          ment
          > 16/sr1437s16b.pdf (p 122) for the effects of steam "blowing" across a
          "pipe"
          > in steam piping (like blowing over the top of a bottle). The effect is
          > similar to the large pipes in an organ. In this case, the standing
          wave
          > that was set up in the system severely damaged components UPSTREAM of
          the
          > pipe.
          >
          > Arne
          > Central Minnesota
          >
          > ________________________________
          >
          > From: humforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:humforum@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf
          > Of Phil Strong
          >
          > Kallio,
          >
          > I understand your point, but the pitot effect is quite small even in a
          > strong wind, it is outweighed by altitude.
          > It should be possible to hear the hum under these circumstances I
          think.
          > Has somebody tried a pressure chamber this would be interesting, I
          might be
          > able to get use of the hyperbaric chamber
          > if I ask.
          >
          > Phil
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
          ------
          >
          >
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.24/514 - Release Date:
          2/11/2006
          >
        • Tobypaws2002@aol.com
          In a message dated 03/11/2006 15:40:10 GMT Standard Time, view_5280@yahoo.com writes: Caves big enough for people to walk through also present resonant
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 11, 2006
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            In a message dated 03/11/2006 15:40:10 GMT Standard Time, view_5280@... writes:
            Caves big enough for people to walk through also present resonant
            cavities with openings subject to external influences. It may or may
            not be a factor - we don't know.
            I am reminded of a set of screens arranged in a sort of zig-zag fashion, like a corridor, called a Sound Chicane (?), sound lost a little of its energy every time it tried to get past a bend in the 'corridor'.
            Such that, virtually no sound got out the other end.
            I think it was the BBC or similar T.V. station that demonstrated this.
            It is rather similar to a large book shop, where there are thousands of books stacked high: a great muffling of sounds.
            That prompted me to suggest getting hundreds of unwanted books and lining a room, including floor and ceiling, and not forgetting windows and doors.(Air would have to be ducted in by an air fan).
            This idea was backed up by finding that a cupboard full of stacked boxes containing crockery and books did muffle The Hum a little.
            I just think that caves that are approached through corridors/passageways that are not dead straight (and so might allow some outside noise in ) would become quieter, the further one progressed.
            I remember going into Wookey Hole Caves, and after a few turns, down a few steps, etc., all outside noise ceased. It had been quite busy above ground, with a busy cafe, and cars coming and going. And further on, by a deep, dark, eerie pool, there was the most profound silence I have ever heard. This said to me that I did not have tinnitus.
            (There were several other places I could virtually rely on to be Hum free too.).
            When I returned home, there was the same old tormenting Hum, just the same as ever.
            I really honestly believe this is a test worth trying.
            R.M.
          • Phil Strong
            A large cave with water and large caverns (like Wookey) will have a high level of white noise as a background, so this will do a great job at masking, it s
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 11, 2006
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              A large cave with water and large caverns (like Wookey) will have a high level of white noise as a background, so this
              will do a great job at masking, it's like the difference between inside your house and outside (but x10), the background is much higher
              outside (even though you may not notice it). I have to Wookey several times both as a tourist and a seriuos caver. If this
              is the cave you have used for 'the cave' test then the reason  it worked is likely to be background masking.
              A better test would be a dry cave with long passages well away from any water movement.
               
              Phil
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 11:10 PM
              Subject: Re: HUM_FORUM: Tests

              In a message dated 03/11/2006 15:40:10 GMT Standard Time, view_5280@yahoo. com writes:
              Caves big enough for people to walk through also present resonant
              cavities with openings subject to external influences. It may or may
              not be a factor - we don't know.
              I am reminded of a set of screens arranged in a sort of zig-zag fashion, like a corridor, called a Sound Chicane (?), sound lost a little of its energy every time it tried to get past a bend in the 'corridor'.
              Such that, virtually no sound got out the other end.
              I think it was the BBC or similar T.V. station that demonstrated this.
              It is rather similar to a large book shop, where there are thousands of books stacked high: a great muffling of sounds.
              That prompted me to suggest getting hundreds of unwanted books and lining a room, including floor and ceiling, and not forgetting windows and doors.(Air would have to be ducted in by an air fan).
              This idea was backed up by finding that a cupboard full of stacked boxes containing crockery and books did muffle The Hum a little.
              I just think that caves that are approached through corridors/passagewa ys that are not dead straight (and so might allow some outside noise in ) would become quieter, the further one progressed.
              I remember going into Wookey Hole Caves, and after a few turns, down a few steps, etc., all outside noise ceased. It had been quite busy above ground, with a busy cafe, and cars coming and going. And further on, by a deep, dark, eerie pool, there was the most profound silence I have ever heard. This said to me that I did not have tinnitus.
              (There were several other places I could virtually rely on to be Hum free too.).
              When I returned home, there was the same old tormenting Hum, just the same as ever.
              I really honestly believe this is a test worth trying.
              R.M.


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            • Tobypaws2002@aol.com
              In a message dated 11/11/2006 20:27:36 GMT Standard Time, phil.strong@clear.net.nz writes: I have to Wookey several times both as a tourist and a seriuos
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 12, 2006
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                In a message dated 11/11/2006 20:27:36 GMT Standard Time, phil.strong@... writes:
                I have to Wookey several times both as a tourist and a seriuos caver. If this
                is the cave you have used for 'the cave' test then the reason  it worked is likely to be background masking.
                A better test would be a dry cave with long passages well away from any water movement.
                 
                Phil
                Hi Phil,
                There was no white noise from rushing water, that is why it was
                 a good place to listen.
                I would not try to listen for a low frequency Hum in a place which
                 had significant high frequency White Noise present, as the latter can have
                a masking effect :
                 that is why it is used in noise masker machines
                (what they call "Sound Conditioners").
                The particular place I have often quoted is a metal bridge over a deep,
                 dark, eerie pool, and no noises of any sort.
                The most profound silence I have ever heard.
                My pals and I got away from the guided tour purposely to
                 try to find a very quiet corner to listen in.
                I still think it is the type of place where one could be reasonably sure that no significant signals (or noises from outside due to passageways that bent in different ways, making a 'sound chicane'.) could reach.....either acoustic or R.F., etc.
                R.M.  
                LFNS Helpline,
                England.
              • Tom Becker
                Phil, are you still here? ... used three people who could hear [] a reference signal [] at the same level as the hum [which] would audibly beat nicely with it
                Message 7 of 30 , May 22, 2008
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                  Phil, are you still here?

                  From message #7344 :
                  > I had a chance to use our RF shielded enclosure today. [] ... we
                  used three people who could hear [] a reference signal [] at the same
                  level as the hum [which] would audibly beat nicely with it [] about
                  2Hz away...

                  ... lead me quickly to the conclusion that the source of the Hum (at
                  least for us) is an internal one.

                  Of identical frequencies? You all heard the same beat note?


                  Tom
                  Cape Coral
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