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Re: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not

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  • MICHAEL PALMER
    So what is HAARP, but a billion watt microwave antenna. I don t know if microwaves are electromagnetic or not? ... From: Alan
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
      So what is HAARP, but a billion watt microwave antenna.  I don't know if microwaves are electromagnetic or not?
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:47 PM
      Subject: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not

      "elfalotanoise" <elfalotanoise@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Rossen,
      > If the hum is not electromagnetic due to the 'impossibility' "to
      > detect and pin down the source" then what is it?
      > I realize this question may sound incredibly ignorant to those of
      > you  more educated in this area. Thanks in advance of your patience
      > in explaining this.
      > Christine

      Good question, however, if it *IS* electromagnetic, then why hasn't
      anybody been able to use electromagnetic detection gear to track down
      the transmitter source(s)?

      That is what the FCC does when they locate an illegal radio
      transmitter.

      The same concept should be feasible with the Hum if it comes from an
      electromagnetic transmitter device.

      Alan




      Posting Guidelines:

      1.  No personal attacks.  But reasoned criticism of
      ideas and theories is welcome.
      2.  No gratuitous profanity.
      3.  No "kook" posts.
      4.  Limit posts to those that are necessary and have substantive content.  In general, no more than three per person per day.
      5.  Please sign all posts with your location (city, state, country).


    • Tobypaws2002@aol.com
      In a message dated 03/06/2005 04:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, awstevens@yahoo.com writes: The same concept should be feasible with the Hum if it comes from an
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
        In a message dated 03/06/2005 04:50:46 GMT Daylight Time, awstevens@... writes:
        The same concept should be feasible with the Hum if it comes from an
        electromagnetic transmitter device.

        Alan
        =========================

        What would an electro-magnetic transmitter be typically used for?
        R.M.       Southampton, England.
        ================================================
      • Jim Egger
        Alan et al, The FCC does track the USUAL radio type transmissions with equipment designed for tuning in on those frequencies. The problem with the hum is that
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
          Alan et al,

          The FCC does track the USUAL radio type transmissions with equipment
          designed for tuning in on those frequencies. The problem with the hum is
          that it is an unusually low frequency electromagnetic wave perhaps with
          modulations it appears from the way some of us hear it. It would take very
          specialized and unusual equipment to be able to detect the type of source(s)
          producing the extra low radio frequency we hear the hum at. It is not the
          type of equipment that is by any means readily available to even people
          knowledgeable about electronics. Another thing is that we are not even sure
          just what it is we are looking for exactly - yet. At some point though, I
          have confidence it will reveal itself somehow.

          Sincerely,
          Jim Egger
          Palmer, Alaska



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Alan Stevens" <awstevens@...>
          To: <humforum@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:47 PM
          Subject: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not


          > "elfalotanoise" <elfalotanoise@y...> wrote:
          >>
          >> Dear Rossen,
          >> If the hum is not electromagnetic due to the 'impossibility' "to
          >> detect and pin down the source" then what is it?
          >> I realize this question may sound incredibly ignorant to those of
          >> you more educated in this area. Thanks in advance of your patience
          >> in explaining this.
          >> Christine
          >
          > Good question, however, if it *IS* electromagnetic, then why hasn't
          > anybody been able to use electromagnetic detection gear to track down
          > the transmitter source(s)?
          >
          > That is what the FCC does when they locate an illegal radio
          > transmitter.
          >
          > The same concept should be feasible with the Hum if it comes from an
          > electromagnetic transmitter device.
          >
          > Alan
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Posting Guidelines:
          >
          > 1. No personal attacks. But reasoned criticism of
          > ideas and theories is welcome.
          > 2. No gratuitous profanity.
          > 3. No "kook" posts.
          > 4. Limit posts to those that are necessary and have substantive content.
          > In general, no more than three per person per day.
          > 5. Please sign all posts with your location (city, state, country).
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Tobypaws2002@aol.com
          In a message dated 03/06/2005 05:08:37 GMT Daylight Time, taska11@msn.com writes: So what is HAARP, but a billion watt microwave antenna. I don t know if
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 2, 2005
            In a message dated 03/06/2005 05:08:37 GMT Daylight Time, taska11@... writes:
            So what is HAARP, but a billion watt microwave antenna.  I don't know if microwaves are electromagnetic or not?
            ==============================
            I don't know nearly enough about all the different frequencies ,(but am trying to learn), but I thought electro-magnetic fields surrounded electrical installations, like pylons carrying 'mains' power, electric cables, etc.
            And I thought cell phones used microwaves?
            2 June, I visited a house on the south coast, where the residents hear a 'thump-thump-thump' sort of sound, and they had hired a meter that measured electro-magnetic fields, plus in the same meter, it could measure 'electric fields'. Whe the meter was activated below very sturdy mains cable supplying homes in the same road, it barely registered, point 001, point 005, etc., I think it was (but we were not sure where the decimal point was supposed to be, it was not showing on the screen...), and their noises were 'on'....they were told by an electrical engineer that the electro magnetic field 'reacted' with the metals in their home, radiators, etc.
            I frowned a bit, as that sounded rather far-fetched, and I wondered if it was to 'baffle them with science', to confuse and complicate, so that they found it too tedious to pursue.....maybe that's just me being cynical.....the puzzle to me is :
            1) they think their 'thumping' noises are due to the electricity cables by their home, but they hear the same noises everywhere now ! (my next job is to find a bunker or other deep place where the meter registers NIL ! And take them in, and ask them what they hear.....good test?);
            2)What would block electro-magnetic fields: could one build some sort of screened sanctuary within a house, in which just to sleep? What materials would you have to use?
            The same questions keep coming up:
            if you think you are being 'bombarded' with 'waves' or 'signals', surely the first thing to do is find out what can block that incoming energy, block it, and then see if you still  hear something. If a meter that measures whatever you feel is causing your noise registers 'nil', then surely in a screened room or space, if you still hear a noise, the noise  can't be from what you thought....yes?
            So the need is still there, to have a range of options: we need to know 'what blocks what'.
            If anyone can help with these questions, it might help progress for all who suffer.....
             I really want to try to assemble some simple and pretty sure ways of finding out what is going on for people, and then hopefully, that would give a clue to others....
            Does anyone in the south of England know where there are some deep caves, that the public could visit? I heard about the bunkers in the White Cliffs Of Dover, which were secret bases for planning, etc., in World War 2.   There was a programme on t.v. recently about it....somewhere like that would be ideal, if it were away from industry, communications, etc. We really need a test-place to go, for Hum hearers to listen. I know Wookey Hole Caves is very good, as it is in solid stone, and I think I am right in saying that no radio waves etc. can get in there.
            If I can ever get a range of instruments, I hope to go there again, but in the meantime, it is a fairly long drive from here, just for a hearing test, and takes a 'chunk' of money each time to do....that's why a site in, say Hampshire, or Sussex would be ideal....any ideas, U.K. folks?
            R.M.    Southampton, England.
            ==================================================================
             
             
          • Alan Stevens
            Why would it take very specialized and unusual equipment to be able to detect the type of source(s) producing the radio frequency in the 40-60 hz range? Why
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 3, 2005
              Why would it take "very specialized and unusual equipment" to be able
              to detect the type of source(s) producing the radio frequency in the
              40-60 hz range?

              Why haven't the researchers in Kokomo and Taos done these studies?

              Alan

              "Jim Egger" <aeroqst@m...> wrote:
              >
              > Alan et al,
              >
              > The FCC does track the USUAL radio type transmissions with
              equipment
              > designed for tuning in on those frequencies. The problem with the
              hum is
              > that it is an unusually low frequency electromagnetic wave perhaps
              with
              > modulations it appears from the way some of us hear it. It would
              take very
              > specialized and unusual equipment to be able to detect the type of
              source(s)
              > producing the extra low radio frequency we hear the hum at. It is
              not the
              > type of equipment that is by any means readily available to even
              people
              > knowledgeable about electronics. Another thing is that we are not
              even sure
              > just what it is we are looking for exactly - yet. At some point
              though, I
              > have confidence it will reveal itself somehow.
              >
              > Sincerely,
              > Jim Egger
              > Palmer, Alaska
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Alan Stevens" <awstevens@y...>
              > To: <humforum@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:47 PM
              > Subject: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not
              >
              >
              > > "elfalotanoise" <elfalotanoise@y...> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> Dear Rossen,
              > >> If the hum is not electromagnetic due to the 'impossibility' "to
              > >> detect and pin down the source" then what is it?
              > >> I realize this question may sound incredibly ignorant to those of
              > >> you more educated in this area. Thanks in advance of your
              patience
              > >> in explaining this.
              > >> Christine
              > >
              > > Good question, however, if it *IS* electromagnetic, then why
              hasn't
              > > anybody been able to use electromagnetic detection gear to track
              down
              > > the transmitter source(s)?
              > >
              > > That is what the FCC does when they locate an illegal radio
              > > transmitter.
              > >
              > > The same concept should be feasible with the Hum if it comes from
              an
              > > electromagnetic transmitter device.
            • elfalotanoise
              ... surely the ... block it, ... measures whatever ... screened ... what you ... R.M./anyone, please, What specific type of meter/s shall I use? Pleae be
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 3, 2005
                >
                > R.M. wrote:
                >
                >> "he same questions keep coming up:
                > if you think you are being 'bombarded' with 'waves' or 'signals',
                surely the
                > first thing to do is find out what can block that incoming energy,
                block it,
                > and then see if you still hear something. If a meter that
                measures whatever
                > you feel is causing your noise registers 'nil', then surely in a
                screened
                > room or space, if you still hear a noise, the noise can't be from
                what you
                > thought....yes?"


                R.M./anyone, please,

                What specific type of meter/s shall I use? Pleae be specific in what
                they are called and what they do. How to get them?

                I believe my hum may be related to electric power lines as I hear the
                seemingly same sound when I am in and sometimes out of my car near
                the poles with transformers - I also notice the sound under overhead
                powerlines. Yet the new gentleman states the sound he heard also
                sounded similar to " a 60 cycle sound. Anyway, I need to rule out
                electricty and am not convinced the electric co has done so.

                My local electric co. states my house "checks out fine" what does
                this mean? I have been trying to get answers re: the type of tests
                they performed, results etc. But have not had a response.
                Incidently, I was told they would call me before they came out, yet
                they did not, and my husband happened to encounter the representative
                from the electric co when he got home early from picking up the
                children d/t 1/2 day at school, I was at work.

                By the way, I was told by another electric co rep that stray voltage
                doen't affect humans. This seemed to me a ridiculous statement.
                Does she really not understand that prolonged exposure to stray
                voltage causes harmful side-effects? I find this hard to believe.
                Are these representatives trained to mislead the public? I also find
                this hard to believe. What do you all think? Stray voltage is one
                concern of my although it does not seem very feasible given the fact
                that the agriculural land extends for (I'll have to measure a more
                exact distance) approx 3/4 mi directly behind our property and then
                becomes a dairy operation. The distance to me seems too great.
                However, I am not an expert, yet the expert states that "humans
                aren't affected by stray voltage." She goes further to state, "If a
                cow in a field of stray voltage touches metal then it will be
                affected, but humans are not." !!! I don't feel as though people with
                this attitude will be able to help me.

                Again, who may I contact and what type of instrumentation (specifics
                please) do I need?

                Frustrated,
                Christine, Hudson, WI


                > ==================================================================
              • Tobypaws2002@aol.com
                In a message dated 03/06/2005 13:24:52 GMT Daylight Time, elfalotanoise@yahoo.com writes: However, I am not an expert, yet the expert states that humans
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 3, 2005
                  In a message dated 03/06/2005 13:24:52 GMT Daylight Time, elfalotanoise@... writes:
                  However, I am not an expert, yet the expert states that "humans
                  aren't affected by stray voltage."  She goes further to state, "If a
                  cow in a field of stray voltage touches metal then it will be
                  affected, but humans are not." !!! I don't feel as though people with
                  this attitude will be able to help me.

                  Again, who may I contact and what type of instrumentation (specifics
                  please) do I need?

                  Frustrated,
                  Christine, Hudson, WI
                  ================================================
                  Hi, I know just what you mean, it is a coincidence but something similar is going on right now with a case of mine, on the south coast of England. The officials from the elec' co. came out while I was there, and I'm not convinced from the answers they gave that they know much more than we do about it all ! On the other hand, if what they say is right, that people don't get the effects they imagine from electric power lines, then ...well, what WOULD they say?
                  But there again, they have to protect their company, as if their lines/equipment were the source, then presumably the co.' would be at risk of litigation and huge claims for compensation, so the order of the day might be to play it all down, and baffle the punters with 'science'!  When asked whether the complainant should take a reading from the E.M. meter (that also did electric fields) ,and where should it be taken,  the co. representative (not the main man, but someone else on overtime, out of hours, with a trainee 'mate' who said very little, and grinned confusedly ) hesitated, and then said....."er....well.....er...yes, just a general reading..."        I would have thought he would have asked for readings from various parts of the house, including most importantly the place where the complainants tried to sleep.  A 'general' reading might not 'show' very much.....or is that the idea? The husband in the south coast case is getting near the end of his patience, he said "It's their problem !
                  I have better things to do with my life than messing around with all this! I've had 6 months of this, and I feel as if in about one more week of it, I will blow my top!" The only trouble there is, who do you 'blow your top' to ? If you don't know who's doing it ?! But then, that's par for the course.    It is SUCH a dreadful waste of people's time and lives. Both these people in this case are lovely, gentle, kind, civilised and creative folks, and they don't deserve such torment, especially as they have put their whole effort into making the most charming home and garden , beautifully done, very tasteful and welcoming to look at when you go in.
                  These residents said they still heard the noise when all power in the house was switched off...suggesting to me at least that the source may be from outside, but when you see a meter reading so low, you have to wonder....I don't think it is an acoustic noise, as I used an extremely sensitive sound recorder there, and got 'nil'. Certainly nothing like the thumping sounds they describe....it is a mystery..... It sounds silent in the house and garden to me, anyway.  But  I will be  using the same meter here in the next few days, (cost: £35 per week to hire) , to see if I can learn a bit more about all this....
                  What SORT of sound would electro-magnetically sensitive people hear? Would it be a droning hum like the classic description of 'THE' Hum? Would it be clicks, or buzzing, or what?
                  By the way, this tiny home is packed with all sorts of electrical equipment, all crammed in tightly, yet I have no symptoms, after 10 years of it (it is sometimes said that it takes a while to become sensitised....). But then, maybe not everyone would become sensitive.
                   I wonder what makes the difference? General health ? Presence of additives from junk food? Prescription drugs? Poor general health?Blood chemistry wrong? Stress from other areas of life?
                  There  is also a slight question mark over the fact that the group pushing the idea of the dangers of 'electro-magnetic and electrical  sensitivity' also hires out and sells meters.....
                  We keep coming back to needing tests, if we have not access to specific scientific measuring equipment.    We need to devise simple tests, to give clues about what might be being heard.  We all need to become detectives in whatever way we can. We need to be able to demonstrate what is going on, by blocking, and finding places to go and listen in.
                  As time goes on, I see I really have to try to get some sort of grant for a range of meters, so that I can assure folks that I am not protecting the electric company, or anyone else, and  be able to see just what is happening for sufferers, with no bias involved, from being employed by any company....
                  Most folks cannot afford the huge fees asked by consultants, who are there to make profits....people need to be able to trust whoever is doing the measurements, although to be fair, a consultant risks his reputation if he falsifies data in order to give the result sought, so...
                  Ah well, we can only try to do what we can.....but how I would love to cut through the mysteries surrounding all this. But it seems it is hugely complicated, and each case of nuisance noise/s may involve a combination of a set of factors not previously realised....
                  Stick with it, folks !
                  R.M.     Southampton, England.
                  ============================================================
                   
                   
                • Jim Egger
                  Alan, With my somewhat limited knowlege of electronics and from what I have been researching on long wavelengths in the radio realm which is what 60 hz and
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 3, 2005
                    Alan,
                    With my somewhat limited knowlege of electronics and from what I have been
                    researching on long wavelengths in the radio realm which is what 60 hz and
                    thereabouts would be, one needs a very long antanae array to produce it and
                    sense it. It is not something that can easily be transported around say in a
                    vehicle. The Toas Hum page did do some work in trying to record the hum and
                    came up with one apparently according to Sarah T. Allen. See
                    http://amasci.com/hum/lennart2.gif . She also went on to state that the navy
                    had some "special equipment" for use in communicating with subs that they
                    were quite proud of and implied that it is not something of your everyday
                    communications setup. Logic would suggest that the navy does not want
                    messages sent to subs to be subject to any type of easy intercept hence the
                    equipment used would be special in some sense. A lot of what is being
                    discussed here in this forum has already been addressed by Sarah T Allen in
                    letters you shoulkd read in http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrg/sara.txt. It
                    talks of acoustic tests and what they found as well as possible hum sources.
                    Furthermore she states the following:

                    "Please read the book "Angels don't play this HAARP" about the High
                    frequency
                    Active Auroral Research Project going on right now in Alaska. Find out why
                    our
                    government wants to beam a BILLION watt high frequency signal modulated with
                    near alpha wave ELF information. Find out why they want to cause runaway
                    ionospheric heating. They have the money and the toys to virtually destroy
                    our
                    planet. You may say to yourself that they are not that stupid. Let me remind
                    you that just before they exploded the first atomic bomb in the New Mexico
                    desert in 1945, the scientists were still betting amongst themselves on
                    whether or not the chain reaction would ignite the atmosphere of the planet
                    and sterilize earth of all living things. They exploded the bomb even though
                    they did not know for sure that they weren't destroying the planet. They
                    contiune to play that same game.

                    If you want absolute proof I can't give that to you yet. But I know, as a
                    human, as a spiritual being, as an aware being, that the "hum" that began in
                    1976 in Eugene, Oregon, and has now been reported worldwide is not a natural
                    hum.

                    Sara T. Allen

                    E-mail from: Sara T. Allen, 18-Dec-1995"

                    For those of you having doubts about the governments willingness to do
                    things that can be utterly devastating the atomic bomb bomb test in New
                    Mexico in 1945 went on despite the risk that the entire earth could be wiped
                    clean of life. That is government at work as usual and it is not any
                    different today. Many of the scientists who worked on the bomb and Albert
                    Einstein who urged president Roosevelt to develope it went on to sign papers
                    calling for a halt to the research and developement of such weapons of mass
                    destruction because of their potential for falling into the wrong hands and
                    being used against the masses of humanity for its destruction. Right now,
                    this very moment as I type these words, there are subs owned by just this
                    country the good ol' US of A that have enough destructive power on them to
                    destroy the world a couple of times over cruising around Earths oceans
                    waiting for that fateful day when they may be ordered to use them. I believe
                    the Russians are in the same boat and the Chinese may be next. The fact that
                    governments have these weapons must imply that they are willing to use them
                    given the right circumstance or they would not have them. That pretty much
                    answers any questions about the governments willingness to put the masses at
                    risk.

                    What I would like to know is just who are the THEY's in all the talk of they
                    did this and they are doing that. When the THEY crowd gets flushed out THAT
                    is the moment you will get to the source of things and cure the disease, the
                    cancer that lurks among all of us.

                    Sincerely,
                    Jim Egger
                    Palmer, Alaska







                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Alan Stevens" <awstevens@...>
                    To: <humforum@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 3:16 AM
                    Subject: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not


                    > Why would it take "very specialized and unusual equipment" to be able
                    > to detect the type of source(s) producing the radio frequency in the
                    > 40-60 hz range?
                    >
                    > Why haven't the researchers in Kokomo and Taos done these studies?
                    >
                    > Alan
                    >
                    > "Jim Egger" <aeroqst@m...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Alan et al,
                    >>
                    >> The FCC does track the USUAL radio type transmissions with
                    > equipment
                    >> designed for tuning in on those frequencies. The problem with the
                    > hum is
                    >> that it is an unusually low frequency electromagnetic wave perhaps
                    > with
                    >> modulations it appears from the way some of us hear it. It would
                    > take very
                    >> specialized and unusual equipment to be able to detect the type of
                    > source(s)
                    >> producing the extra low radio frequency we hear the hum at. It is
                    > not the
                    >> type of equipment that is by any means readily available to even
                    > people
                    >> knowledgeable about electronics. Another thing is that we are not
                    > even sure
                    >> just what it is we are looking for exactly - yet. At some point
                    > though, I
                    >> have confidence it will reveal itself somehow.
                    >>
                    >> Sincerely,
                    >> Jim Egger
                    >> Palmer, Alaska
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ----- Original Message -----
                    >> From: "Alan Stevens" <awstevens@y...>
                    >> To: <humforum@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:47 PM
                    >> Subject: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> > "elfalotanoise" <elfalotanoise@y...> wrote:
                    >> >>
                    >> >> Dear Rossen,
                    >> >> If the hum is not electromagnetic due to the 'impossibility' "to
                    >> >> detect and pin down the source" then what is it?
                    >> >> I realize this question may sound incredibly ignorant to those of
                    >> >> you more educated in this area. Thanks in advance of your
                    > patience
                    >> >> in explaining this.
                    >> >> Christine
                    >> >
                    >> > Good question, however, if it *IS* electromagnetic, then why
                    > hasn't
                    >> > anybody been able to use electromagnetic detection gear to track
                    > down
                    >> > the transmitter source(s)?
                    >> >
                    >> > That is what the FCC does when they locate an illegal radio
                    >> > transmitter.
                    >> >
                    >> > The same concept should be feasible with the Hum if it comes from
                    > an
                    >> > electromagnetic transmitter device.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Posting Guidelines:
                    >
                    > 1. No personal attacks. But reasoned criticism of
                    > ideas and theories is welcome.
                    > 2. No gratuitous profanity.
                    > 3. No "kook" posts.
                    > 4. Limit posts to those that are necessary and have substantive content.
                    > In general, no more than three per person per day.
                    > 5. Please sign all posts with your location (city, state, country).
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Jim Egger
                    Christine, Asking the electreic company to run tests is like asking the fox to guard the henhouse. My brother worked on a powerline as an electrical worker
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 3, 2005
                      Christine,
                      Asking the electreic company to run tests is like asking the fox to guard
                      the henhouse. My brother worked on a powerline as an electrical worker for
                      the IBEW that was a 500,000 volt line running across northern Minnesota from
                      North Dakota. People can walk under such power lines with a flourescent
                      light bulb in their hand and watch as it lights up when raised up over their
                      heads because of the voltage differential from one end to the other. Let me
                      ask you this, DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT WILL NOT HAVE ANY EFFECT ON A
                      LIVING ORGANISM ?

                      I recall where farmers were cutting down the transmission towers because of
                      the concern for the effects of the power lines. As usual the government put
                      a stop to that and allowed the lines to be built, swept any concerns under
                      the carpet - end of story. Or is it ?

                      I don't want to wax too long with philosophy here in this forum but in the
                      53 years I have been living I have learned a lot things. One thing is to
                      observe and evaluate using knowlege I have found myself or gleaned from
                      others who have done the same. No one can do or know it all so we are forced
                      to do it that way. One needs to constantly check the information they have
                      to see if it is consistently accurate or it is suspect. Pretty soon one can
                      amass a toolchest of learning that serves them well and allows them to view
                      the workings of the world in an accurate way and you can be confident with
                      it (your knowlege). To be real good at gathering such knowlege you must be
                      able to think not just regurgitate learning experiences. The people who are
                      hardest to fool are those types of people who learn to think and analyze.

                      That being said, I look around at some of the things going on in the world
                      and wonder how terrible troubles come to befall us. It is because we allow
                      it to happen. After observing all these years I have seen how money, power
                      and greed of some people supercedes everything even to the extent of they
                      will sell their soul to the devil to have it. The only way they can achieve
                      their goals is to decieve other people into helping them because it is too
                      big of a project to accomplish on their own. The easiest people to fool are
                      the people who can't or don't THINK. Un fortunately there are lots of them
                      around and they make good duped worker bees. The situation in Germany before
                      WWII is a good example. Hitler was a master duper and it could have been so
                      easy for everyone to just take him and his little band of Nazis and squashed
                      them out of existence but no one did because the masses became like sheep
                      and allowed the boots of them to stand on their collective necks. The few
                      who did stand up did so too late and were forced out of the country before
                      they "disappeared". This was a case where the THEY were allowed to get out
                      of control and it took the rest of the world and millions of lives to stop
                      it from spreading.

                      Now when it comes to the hum thing we may very well be dealing with a THEY -
                      maybe not. All I can say is if we are then we better stop it before it is
                      too late or we may be closing the gate after the horse is gone. This problem
                      has grown and some of us are suffering from it. If it involves money, power
                      or greed then it will be a tough battle because those things seems to rule
                      nowadays. All one has to do is look at what constitutes a successful person
                      or organization description these days. The very same values have trickled
                      right on up into the highest ranks of our own government and others around
                      the world. I have seen our values in government become the same values
                      corporations have which are not the values that will necessarily be in the
                      best interest of the masses but in the best interests of better profits,
                      more control and more material things - whatever happens to us is secondary.
                      I certainly don't expect our government as such to be very believable when
                      it comes to our welfare if it hurts the bottom line.

                      Yes I am a cynic but I believe what I observe more than what I am told to
                      believe and history has proved that the best road to choose over and over ad
                      nauseum.

                      My conclusion is the hum is a symptom of what I have stated above. Now let's
                      flush it out and stop it.

                      Sincerely,
                      Jim Egger
                      Palmer, Alaska





                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "elfalotanoise" <elfalotanoise@...>
                      To: <humforum@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 4:22 AM
                      Subject: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not


                      >
                      >>
                      >> R.M. wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> "he same questions keep coming up:
                      >> if you think you are being 'bombarded' with 'waves' or 'signals',
                      > surely the
                      >> first thing to do is find out what can block that incoming energy,
                      > block it,
                      >> and then see if you still hear something. If a meter that
                      > measures whatever
                      >> you feel is causing your noise registers 'nil', then surely in a
                      > screened
                      >> room or space, if you still hear a noise, the noise can't be from
                      > what you
                      >> thought....yes?"
                      >
                      >
                      > R.M./anyone, please,
                      >
                      > What specific type of meter/s shall I use? Pleae be specific in what
                      > they are called and what they do. How to get them?
                      >
                      > I believe my hum may be related to electric power lines as I hear the
                      > seemingly same sound when I am in and sometimes out of my car near
                      > the poles with transformers - I also notice the sound under overhead
                      > powerlines. Yet the new gentleman states the sound he heard also
                      > sounded similar to " a 60 cycle sound. Anyway, I need to rule out
                      > electricty and am not convinced the electric co has done so.
                      >
                      > My local electric co. states my house "checks out fine" what does
                      > this mean? I have been trying to get answers re: the type of tests
                      > they performed, results etc. But have not had a response.
                      > Incidently, I was told they would call me before they came out, yet
                      > they did not, and my husband happened to encounter the representative
                      > from the electric co when he got home early from picking up the
                      > children d/t 1/2 day at school, I was at work.
                      >
                      > By the way, I was told by another electric co rep that stray voltage
                      > doen't affect humans. This seemed to me a ridiculous statement.
                      > Does she really not understand that prolonged exposure to stray
                      > voltage causes harmful side-effects? I find this hard to believe.
                      > Are these representatives trained to mislead the public? I also find
                      > this hard to believe. What do you all think? Stray voltage is one
                      > concern of my although it does not seem very feasible given the fact
                      > that the agriculural land extends for (I'll have to measure a more
                      > exact distance) approx 3/4 mi directly behind our property and then
                      > becomes a dairy operation. The distance to me seems too great.
                      > However, I am not an expert, yet the expert states that "humans
                      > aren't affected by stray voltage." She goes further to state, "If a
                      > cow in a field of stray voltage touches metal then it will be
                      > affected, but humans are not." !!! I don't feel as though people with
                      > this attitude will be able to help me.
                      >
                      > Again, who may I contact and what type of instrumentation (specifics
                      > please) do I need?
                      >
                      > Frustrated,
                      > Christine, Hudson, WI
                      >
                      >
                      >> ==================================================================
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Posting Guidelines:
                      >
                      > 1. No personal attacks. But reasoned criticism of
                      > ideas and theories is welcome.
                      > 2. No gratuitous profanity.
                      > 3. No "kook" posts.
                      > 4. Limit posts to those that are necessary and have substantive content.
                      > In general, no more than three per person per day.
                      > 5. Please sign all posts with your location (city, state, country).
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Bill Curry
                      ... Hi folks, Yahoo bounced me off the Yahoo Groups for a few days, so I am not up to date on all that has transpired on the Hum forum. Nevertheless, I want
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 3, 2005
                        on 6/3/05 7:22 AM, elfalotanoise at elfalotanoise@... wrote:

                        >
                        >>
                        >> R.M. wrote:
                        >>
                        >>> "he same questions keep coming up:
                        >> if you think you are being 'bombarded' with 'waves' or 'signals',
                        > surely the
                        >> first thing to do is find out what can block that incoming energy,
                        > block it,
                        >> and then see if you still hear something. If a meter that
                        > measures whatever
                        >> you feel is causing your noise registers 'nil', then surely in a
                        > screened
                        >> room or space, if you still hear a noise, the noise can't be from
                        > what you
                        >> thought....yes?"
                        >
                        >
                        > R.M./anyone, please,
                        >
                        > What specific type of meter/s shall I use? Pleae be specific in what
                        > they are called and what they do. How to get them?
                        >
                        > I believe my hum may be related to electric power lines as I hear the
                        > seemingly same sound when I am in and sometimes out of my car near
                        > the poles with transformers - I also notice the sound under overhead
                        > powerlines. Yet the new gentleman states the sound he heard also
                        > sounded similar to " a 60 cycle sound. Anyway, I need to rule out
                        > electricty and am not convinced the electric co has done so.
                        >
                        > My local electric co. states my house "checks out fine" what does
                        > this mean? I have been trying to get answers re: the type of tests
                        > they performed, results etc. But have not had a response.
                        > Incidently, I was told they would call me before they came out, yet
                        > they did not, and my husband happened to encounter the representative
                        > from the electric co when he got home early from picking up the
                        > children d/t 1/2 day at school, I was at work.
                        >
                        > By the way, I was told by another electric co rep that stray voltage
                        > doen't affect humans. This seemed to me a ridiculous statement.
                        > Does she really not understand that prolonged exposure to stray
                        > voltage causes harmful side-effects? I find this hard to believe.
                        > Are these representatives trained to mislead the public? I also find
                        > this hard to believe. What do you all think? Stray voltage is one
                        > concern of my although it does not seem very feasible given the fact
                        > that the agriculural land extends for (I'll have to measure a more
                        > exact distance) approx 3/4 mi directly behind our property and then
                        > becomes a dairy operation. The distance to me seems too great.
                        > However, I am not an expert, yet the expert states that "humans
                        > aren't affected by stray voltage." She goes further to state, "If a
                        > cow in a field of stray voltage touches metal then it will be
                        > affected, but humans are not." !!! I don't feel as though people with
                        > this attitude will be able to help me.
                        >
                        > Again, who may I contact and what type of instrumentation (specifics
                        > please) do I need?
                        >
                        > Frustrated,
                        > Christine, Hudson, WI
                        >
                        >
                        >> ==================================================================
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Posting Guidelines:
                        >
                        > 1. No personal attacks. But reasoned criticism of
                        > ideas and theories is welcome.
                        > 2. No gratuitous profanity.
                        > 3. No "kook" posts.
                        > 4. Limit posts to those that are necessary and have substantive content. In
                        > general, no more than three per person per day.
                        > 5. Please sign all posts with your location (city, state, country).
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        Hi folks, Yahoo bounced me off the Yahoo Groups for a few days, so I am not
                        up to date on all that has transpired on the Hum forum. Nevertheless, I
                        want to answer some posts that came in recently.

                        Christine,

                        Some people in your area who have had experience with "stray voltage"
                        effects are Dave Stetzer in Blair Wisconsin and Dr. Duane Dahlberg, retired
                        Phsics Prof. from Concordia College in the Minneapolis area. Both have
                        testified in legal cases involving the power industry and dairy farmers.

                        Dave Stetzer has a company (Stetzer Electric) in Blair, and he and Dr.
                        Martin Graham, retired Electrical Engineering Prof. at Univ. of Calif.,
                        Berkeley, have studied health effects related to RF pollution on home power
                        lines. Graham developed an instrument to measure the extent of RF pollution
                        on residential power lines, and he and Stetzer have developed filters to
                        remove the currents that are the consequence of RF pollution. Stetzer sells
                        an improved version of Graham's original RF pollution meter called the
                        "microsurge meter." I have used a meter equipped with Graham's original
                        circuit. The new meter circuit is better because it includes a higher range
                        of RF frequencies than the original one. When filters are used to remove RF
                        pollution, as many as 20 different filters may be required for success, and
                        they are expensive.

                        Stetzer and Dr. Magda Havas from Trent University in Peterborough,
                        Ontario, Canada have several recent publications on the health of people
                        living with RF pollution of power lines and their improvement when the
                        filters were installed. Their latest collaboration was a paper presented to
                        the World Health Organization. I have an electronic copy of this paper.
                        Stetzer is an electrical engineer and formerly worked around Air Force
                        radars. I have worked with him on one occasion. Havas is a medical
                        researcher and epidemiologist whose conclusions are based on careful
                        statistical analysis, so I think you can trust their joint results.

                        After all this, you may well be wondering whether any of this has
                        anything to do with the Hum. My answer is that when my wife and I made
                        electromagnetic measurements in Kokomo, Indiana, 3 out of the 4 homes of
                        Hum sufferers where we measured had significant RF pollution of their home
                        power lines, as indicated by Graham's original meter circuit connected to a
                        standard digital RMS voltmeter. RF radiation was observed (with a broadband
                        RF field meter that is very sensitive) coming out wall sockets, cable TV
                        (with the TV set turned off, but the cable still connected), etc. In these
                        cases, a strong source of RF pollution was an AM radio station at 1350 kHz
                        that had unusually high electric field strength. Because my broadband RF
                        meter had an AM detector, I could hear the audio signal of the broadcast
                        station when I placed the meter near the wall sockets in one residence. The
                        power lines were old, probably poorly grounded, and in one instance, the
                        power line, the cable TV cable, and the phone line were all within a foot of
                        each other at one location in the residence's back yard.

                        In addition to all this, there was a strong signal from one or more
                        Nextel cellular phone base station(s) that was identified by its partial
                        spectrum as measured on my spectrum analyzer. This signal was always near
                        858 MHz frequency, and it was about 10 decibels stronger than other signals
                        that I measured at frequencies between 1600 and 2000 MHz (signals
                        corresponding to pulsed digital phone base stations of other providers.

                        Nextel has pulsed digital transmissions at frequencies where one
                        wouldn't ordinarily expect such transmissions, because the FCC licensed them
                        to take frequencies interleaved with radios for public safety, taxi
                        dispatch, bus dispatch, etc. The resulting interference with police and
                        fire radio systems has caused the FCC to require that the frequencies
                        eventually be reallocated in that region of the spectrum, but the change is
                        slow in coming. Thus, I was able to identify the Nextel signal by its
                        strength, its spectrum, and the way the spectral peak near 858 MHz varied
                        from day to day and location to location. Motorola, which developed the
                        technology that Nextel uses, has a frequency allocation algorithm, and my
                        measurements agreed within the stated accuracy of the spectrum analyzer with
                        the formula that Motorola uses to allocate the RF carrier frequency of each
                        new phone call.

                        Again, how does all this relate to Hum sufferers? First, in measuring
                        RF signal strength at homes of people who live near cellular base stations,
                        I am usually asked to do so by people who suffer from very similar physical
                        symptoms as those described by those Hum sufferers who hear the "idling
                        diesel" sounds, except that they don't hear the Hum. They endure dizziness,
                        nausea, fainting spells, headaches, blood pressure problems, heart
                        palpitations, worsening of diabetic symptoms, seizures, etc. Most of the
                        reported symptoms are those which Former Soviet Scientists categorized as RF
                        Sickness Syndrome or Microwave Sickness Syndrome. Their work, which was
                        carried out over about 40 years time, has not been well accepted in the
                        West.

                        The second reason that I think cellular base stations (or other pulsed
                        RF sources) play a part in the Hum related problems is that they are pulsed
                        with some pulsing frequencies that coincide with specific brain waves as
                        measured on EEG's. I do not think that the base stations are powerful
                        enough to be the sole source of problems for hum sufferers, but I think that
                        in combination with other powerful RF sources, the base station radiation,
                        superimposed on the signals from powerful RF sources with much lower carrier
                        frequencies (but still in the RF frequency range) may cause at least some of
                        the Hum problems. This is a point on which Kurt and I disagree.

                        My argument is that sources such as standard broadcast stations or even
                        the Loran-C radio sources produce such long wavelength ground waves that
                        cellular towers are completely immersed in the field of the ground wave.
                        Under these circumstances, I think that the electric field of the ground
                        wave and the electric field of the base station radiation (with much higher
                        frequency) will add vectorially. When you use this argument and carry out
                        the mathematics to evaluate the radiation density of the composite source,
                        you find that there are cross product terms that have the amplitude of the
                        electric field from the low RF frequency source multiplying the amplitude of
                        the electric field of the radiation from the cellular base station. Note
                        that these cross product terms will vanish if you average over the cycles of
                        the waves of the two different types of sources. This means that the
                        addition of the fields from these sources will not change the average power
                        level of the composite waves from those of the separate sources, but will
                        change the instantaneous power level of the composite waves. This argument
                        requires that the frequencies of the two separate sources be very different.
                        If any of you are interested in this argument, you will find it in a paper
                        that I presented at a public health conference in Salzburg, Austria in the
                        year 2000. My calculation of the ground wave from a broadcast station in
                        the vicinity of a cellular base station leaves a lot to be desired, but I
                        don't think the basic argument is weakened by the need to use a better
                        ground wave model. If you want to see this paper, search on Google for the
                        "International Scientific Conference on Cell Tower Siting." The recovered
                        web sites are separately in English and in German. The papers presented at
                        this meeting are all available to download (free) as PDF files. Kurt, I
                        would appreciate your evaluation of my arguments. In something as
                        speculative as what I have proposed, a good dose of healthy skepticism is
                        always advisable!

                        The attractiveness of this model to me is the fact that conditions have
                        to be just right for the production of the kind of composite wave that I
                        have described. Since vectorial addition of fields is involved, the
                        directions of the separate fields have to be somewhat alligned. Further,
                        the characteristics of the ground wave will be strongly dependent on the
                        frequency of the low frequency RF source, the dielectric constant of the
                        ground and the electrical conductivity of the ground (both of which also
                        depend on the frequency of the low frequency RF source) so weather
                        conditions will affect how well the two types of waves couple. Finally, if
                        the effective RF frequency of the composite wave is sufficiently high for
                        microwave hearing to be excited, the pulsing nature of the base station (or
                        other pulsed source) will determine the audio characteristics of the
                        perceived sound. If the individual sources are strong enough, this argument
                        can apply to many different source types (as individual source components).
                        The low frequency components could be broadcast radio stations, ELF
                        navigation beacons such as Loran, etc. The high RF frequency pulsed sources
                        could be cellular base stations, pulsed radars, etc. as long as the carrier
                        wave frequency is 200 MHz or higher (but probably not much higher than 3
                        GHz). The resulting phenomenon would be microwave hearing that exhibits the
                        characteristics of pulsation of the high RF frequency source. Further, the
                        "pitch" of the perceived sounds would be commensurate with the pulsing
                        frequecy, as shown by Allan Frey's early experiments on microwave hearing.

                        This kind of argument is anathema to most scientists and engineers,
                        because it is conventional practice to average over a cycle of a wave.
                        Otherwise, the math in evaluating the Poynting vector (magnitude and
                        direction of energy flow) is just awful. If you assume that only biological
                        heating is a possible health hazard of RF waves, then averaging is essential
                        and is part of the FCC protocol for measurements of compliance with FCC
                        guidelines. On the other hand, measurements with picosecond lasers have
                        shown that biochemical processes can respond to nearly instantaneous changes
                        in stimuli - especially electromagnetic stimuli.

                        I invite you all to critique my arguments. I won't be offended if you
                        disagree with me.

                        Regards, Bill
                        ----------------------------------------------------
                        |Bill P. Curry, PhD EMSciTek Consulting Co.|
                        |(630 858-9377 Fax (630) 858-9159 |
                        | Physics is fun! |
                        |__________________________________________________|
                      • Jim Egger
                        Bill, To put your analysis of your idea of the hum being caused by two or more different rf wave sources in laymans terms, could it be said that it is the same
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 3, 2005
                          Bill,

                          To put your analysis of your idea of the hum being caused by two or more
                          different rf wave sources in laymans terms, could it be said that it is the
                          same as the interference experiment results we used to get in wave tanks in
                          physics class ? That 2 different frequency waves can have as a resultant a
                          new wave that produces the hum? The "beat" some of us hear is the resultant
                          of the pulsing pattern with cell phone transmissions ?

                          From what I know of physics of light and the wave experiments I did in
                          college, I would see this sort of occurrence as being entirely possible. It
                          is a veritable cornucopia of rf waves out there all interacting - who knows
                          ? Would it not be a hard process to test for ?

                          Sincerely,
                          Jim Egger
                          Palmer, Alaska



                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Bill Curry" <bpcurry@...>
                          To: <humforum@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 10:26 AM
                          Subject: Re: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not


                          > on 6/3/05 7:22 AM, elfalotanoise at elfalotanoise@... wrote:
                          >
                          >>
                          >>>
                          >>> R.M. wrote:
                          >>>
                          >>>> "he same questions keep coming up:
                          >>> if you think you are being 'bombarded' with 'waves' or 'signals',
                          >> surely the
                          >>> first thing to do is find out what can block that incoming energy,
                          >> block it,
                          >>> and then see if you still hear something. If a meter that
                          >> measures whatever
                          >>> you feel is causing your noise registers 'nil', then surely in a
                          >> screened
                          >>> room or space, if you still hear a noise, the noise can't be from
                          >> what you
                          >>> thought....yes?"
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> R.M./anyone, please,
                          >>
                          >> What specific type of meter/s shall I use? Pleae be specific in what
                          >> they are called and what they do. How to get them?
                          >>
                          >> I believe my hum may be related to electric power lines as I hear the
                          >> seemingly same sound when I am in and sometimes out of my car near
                          >> the poles with transformers - I also notice the sound under overhead
                          >> powerlines. Yet the new gentleman states the sound he heard also
                          >> sounded similar to " a 60 cycle sound. Anyway, I need to rule out
                          >> electricty and am not convinced the electric co has done so.
                          >>
                          >> My local electric co. states my house "checks out fine" what does
                          >> this mean? I have been trying to get answers re: the type of tests
                          >> they performed, results etc. But have not had a response.
                          >> Incidently, I was told they would call me before they came out, yet
                          >> they did not, and my husband happened to encounter the representative
                          >> from the electric co when he got home early from picking up the
                          >> children d/t 1/2 day at school, I was at work.
                          >>
                          >> By the way, I was told by another electric co rep that stray voltage
                          >> doen't affect humans. This seemed to me a ridiculous statement.
                          >> Does she really not understand that prolonged exposure to stray
                          >> voltage causes harmful side-effects? I find this hard to believe.
                          >> Are these representatives trained to mislead the public? I also find
                          >> this hard to believe. What do you all think? Stray voltage is one
                          >> concern of my although it does not seem very feasible given the fact
                          >> that the agriculural land extends for (I'll have to measure a more
                          >> exact distance) approx 3/4 mi directly behind our property and then
                          >> becomes a dairy operation. The distance to me seems too great.
                          >> However, I am not an expert, yet the expert states that "humans
                          >> aren't affected by stray voltage." She goes further to state, "If a
                          >> cow in a field of stray voltage touches metal then it will be
                          >> affected, but humans are not." !!! I don't feel as though people with
                          >> this attitude will be able to help me.
                          >>
                          >> Again, who may I contact and what type of instrumentation (specifics
                          >> please) do I need?
                          >>
                          >> Frustrated,
                          >> Christine, Hudson, WI
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>> ==================================================================
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Posting Guidelines:
                          >>
                          >> 1. No personal attacks. But reasoned criticism of
                          >> ideas and theories is welcome.
                          >> 2. No gratuitous profanity.
                          >> 3. No "kook" posts.
                          >> 4. Limit posts to those that are necessary and have substantive content.
                          >> In
                          >> general, no more than three per person per day.
                          >> 5. Please sign all posts with your location (city, state, country).
                          >>
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          > Hi folks, Yahoo bounced me off the Yahoo Groups for a few days, so I am
                          > not
                          > up to date on all that has transpired on the Hum forum. Nevertheless, I
                          > want to answer some posts that came in recently.
                          >
                          > Christine,
                          >
                          > Some people in your area who have had experience with "stray voltage"
                          > effects are Dave Stetzer in Blair Wisconsin and Dr. Duane Dahlberg,
                          > retired
                          > Phsics Prof. from Concordia College in the Minneapolis area. Both have
                          > testified in legal cases involving the power industry and dairy farmers.
                          >
                          > Dave Stetzer has a company (Stetzer Electric) in Blair, and he and Dr.
                          > Martin Graham, retired Electrical Engineering Prof. at Univ. of Calif.,
                          > Berkeley, have studied health effects related to RF pollution on home
                          > power
                          > lines. Graham developed an instrument to measure the extent of RF
                          > pollution
                          > on residential power lines, and he and Stetzer have developed filters to
                          > remove the currents that are the consequence of RF pollution. Stetzer
                          > sells
                          > an improved version of Graham's original RF pollution meter called the
                          > "microsurge meter." I have used a meter equipped with Graham's original
                          > circuit. The new meter circuit is better because it includes a higher
                          > range
                          > of RF frequencies than the original one. When filters are used to remove
                          > RF
                          > pollution, as many as 20 different filters may be required for success,
                          > and
                          > they are expensive.
                          >
                          > Stetzer and Dr. Magda Havas from Trent University in Peterborough,
                          > Ontario, Canada have several recent publications on the health of people
                          > living with RF pollution of power lines and their improvement when the
                          > filters were installed. Their latest collaboration was a paper presented
                          > to
                          > the World Health Organization. I have an electronic copy of this paper.
                          > Stetzer is an electrical engineer and formerly worked around Air Force
                          > radars. I have worked with him on one occasion. Havas is a medical
                          > researcher and epidemiologist whose conclusions are based on careful
                          > statistical analysis, so I think you can trust their joint results.
                          >
                          > After all this, you may well be wondering whether any of this has
                          > anything to do with the Hum. My answer is that when my wife and I made
                          > electromagnetic measurements in Kokomo, Indiana, 3 out of the 4 homes of
                          > Hum sufferers where we measured had significant RF pollution of their home
                          > power lines, as indicated by Graham's original meter circuit connected to
                          > a
                          > standard digital RMS voltmeter. RF radiation was observed (with a
                          > broadband
                          > RF field meter that is very sensitive) coming out wall sockets, cable TV
                          > (with the TV set turned off, but the cable still connected), etc. In
                          > these
                          > cases, a strong source of RF pollution was an AM radio station at 1350 kHz
                          > that had unusually high electric field strength. Because my broadband RF
                          > meter had an AM detector, I could hear the audio signal of the broadcast
                          > station when I placed the meter near the wall sockets in one residence.
                          > The
                          > power lines were old, probably poorly grounded, and in one instance, the
                          > power line, the cable TV cable, and the phone line were all within a foot
                          > of
                          > each other at one location in the residence's back yard.
                          >
                          > In addition to all this, there was a strong signal from one or more
                          > Nextel cellular phone base station(s) that was identified by its partial
                          > spectrum as measured on my spectrum analyzer. This signal was always near
                          > 858 MHz frequency, and it was about 10 decibels stronger than other
                          > signals
                          > that I measured at frequencies between 1600 and 2000 MHz (signals
                          > corresponding to pulsed digital phone base stations of other providers.
                          >
                          > Nextel has pulsed digital transmissions at frequencies where one
                          > wouldn't ordinarily expect such transmissions, because the FCC licensed
                          > them
                          > to take frequencies interleaved with radios for public safety, taxi
                          > dispatch, bus dispatch, etc. The resulting interference with police and
                          > fire radio systems has caused the FCC to require that the frequencies
                          > eventually be reallocated in that region of the spectrum, but the change
                          > is
                          > slow in coming. Thus, I was able to identify the Nextel signal by its
                          > strength, its spectrum, and the way the spectral peak near 858 MHz varied
                          > from day to day and location to location. Motorola, which developed the
                          > technology that Nextel uses, has a frequency allocation algorithm, and my
                          > measurements agreed within the stated accuracy of the spectrum analyzer
                          > with
                          > the formula that Motorola uses to allocate the RF carrier frequency of
                          > each
                          > new phone call.
                          >
                          > Again, how does all this relate to Hum sufferers? First, in measuring
                          > RF signal strength at homes of people who live near cellular base
                          > stations,
                          > I am usually asked to do so by people who suffer from very similar
                          > physical
                          > symptoms as those described by those Hum sufferers who hear the "idling
                          > diesel" sounds, except that they don't hear the Hum. They endure
                          > dizziness,
                          > nausea, fainting spells, headaches, blood pressure problems, heart
                          > palpitations, worsening of diabetic symptoms, seizures, etc. Most of the
                          > reported symptoms are those which Former Soviet Scientists categorized as
                          > RF
                          > Sickness Syndrome or Microwave Sickness Syndrome. Their work, which was
                          > carried out over about 40 years time, has not been well accepted in the
                          > West.
                          >
                          > The second reason that I think cellular base stations (or other pulsed
                          > RF sources) play a part in the Hum related problems is that they are
                          > pulsed
                          > with some pulsing frequencies that coincide with specific brain waves as
                          > measured on EEG's. I do not think that the base stations are powerful
                          > enough to be the sole source of problems for hum sufferers, but I think
                          > that
                          > in combination with other powerful RF sources, the base station radiation,
                          > superimposed on the signals from powerful RF sources with much lower
                          > carrier
                          > frequencies (but still in the RF frequency range) may cause at least some
                          > of
                          > the Hum problems. This is a point on which Kurt and I disagree.
                          >
                          > My argument is that sources such as standard broadcast stations or even
                          > the Loran-C radio sources produce such long wavelength ground waves that
                          > cellular towers are completely immersed in the field of the ground wave.
                          > Under these circumstances, I think that the electric field of the ground
                          > wave and the electric field of the base station radiation (with much
                          > higher
                          > frequency) will add vectorially. When you use this argument and carry out
                          > the mathematics to evaluate the radiation density of the composite source,
                          > you find that there are cross product terms that have the amplitude of the
                          > electric field from the low RF frequency source multiplying the amplitude
                          > of
                          > the electric field of the radiation from the cellular base station. Note
                          > that these cross product terms will vanish if you average over the cycles
                          > of
                          > the waves of the two different types of sources. This means that the
                          > addition of the fields from these sources will not change the average
                          > power
                          > level of the composite waves from those of the separate sources, but will
                          > change the instantaneous power level of the composite waves. This
                          > argument
                          > requires that the frequencies of the two separate sources be very
                          > different.
                          > If any of you are interested in this argument, you will find it in a paper
                          > that I presented at a public health conference in Salzburg, Austria in the
                          > year 2000. My calculation of the ground wave from a broadcast station in
                          > the vicinity of a cellular base station leaves a lot to be desired, but I
                          > don't think the basic argument is weakened by the need to use a better
                          > ground wave model. If you want to see this paper, search on Google for
                          > the
                          > "International Scientific Conference on Cell Tower Siting." The recovered
                          > web sites are separately in English and in German. The papers presented at
                          > this meeting are all available to download (free) as PDF files. Kurt, I
                          > would appreciate your evaluation of my arguments. In something as
                          > speculative as what I have proposed, a good dose of healthy skepticism is
                          > always advisable!
                          >
                          > The attractiveness of this model to me is the fact that conditions have
                          > to be just right for the production of the kind of composite wave that I
                          > have described. Since vectorial addition of fields is involved, the
                          > directions of the separate fields have to be somewhat alligned. Further,
                          > the characteristics of the ground wave will be strongly dependent on the
                          > frequency of the low frequency RF source, the dielectric constant of the
                          > ground and the electrical conductivity of the ground (both of which also
                          > depend on the frequency of the low frequency RF source) so weather
                          > conditions will affect how well the two types of waves couple. Finally,
                          > if
                          > the effective RF frequency of the composite wave is sufficiently high for
                          > microwave hearing to be excited, the pulsing nature of the base station
                          > (or
                          > other pulsed source) will determine the audio characteristics of the
                          > perceived sound. If the individual sources are strong enough, this
                          > argument
                          > can apply to many different source types (as individual source
                          > components).
                          > The low frequency components could be broadcast radio stations, ELF
                          > navigation beacons such as Loran, etc. The high RF frequency pulsed
                          > sources
                          > could be cellular base stations, pulsed radars, etc. as long as the
                          > carrier
                          > wave frequency is 200 MHz or higher (but probably not much higher than 3
                          > GHz). The resulting phenomenon would be microwave hearing that exhibits
                          > the
                          > characteristics of pulsation of the high RF frequency source. Further,
                          > the
                          > "pitch" of the perceived sounds would be commensurate with the pulsing
                          > frequecy, as shown by Allan Frey's early experiments on microwave hearing.
                          >
                          > This kind of argument is anathema to most scientists and engineers,
                          > because it is conventional practice to average over a cycle of a wave.
                          > Otherwise, the math in evaluating the Poynting vector (magnitude and
                          > direction of energy flow) is just awful. If you assume that only
                          > biological
                          > heating is a possible health hazard of RF waves, then averaging is
                          > essential
                          > and is part of the FCC protocol for measurements of compliance with FCC
                          > guidelines. On the other hand, measurements with picosecond lasers have
                          > shown that biochemical processes can respond to nearly instantaneous
                          > changes
                          > in stimuli - especially electromagnetic stimuli.
                          >
                          > I invite you all to critique my arguments. I won't be offended if you
                          > disagree with me.
                          >
                          > Regards, Bill
                          > ----------------------------------------------------
                          > |Bill P. Curry, PhD EMSciTek Consulting Co.|
                          > |(630 858-9377 Fax (630) 858-9159 |
                          > | Physics is fun! |
                          > |__________________________________________________|
                          >
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                        • David Deming
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 3, 2005
                            Re: HUM_FORUM:   Re: man made or not
                            >
                            >     The attractiveness of this model to me is the fact that conditions have
                            > to be just right for the production of the kind of composite wave that I
                            > have described.  Since vectorial addition of fields is involved, the
                            > directions of the separate fields have to be somewhat alligned.
                            >

                            Bill:  Does the "vectorial addition" imply that the Hum should only
                            be heard at certain locations where the fields strengthen each other?

                            --David Deming
                            Norman, Oklahoma
                          • Bill Curry
                            ... Bill: Does the vectorial addition imply that the Hum should only be heard at certain locations where the fields strengthen each other? --David Deming
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 3, 2005
                              Re: HUM_FORUM:   Re: man made or not on 6/3/05 6:03 PM, David Deming at profdeming@... wrote:


                              >
                              >     The attractiveness of this model to me is the fact that conditions have
                              > to be just right for the production of the kind of composite wave that I
                              > have described.  Since vectorial addition of fields is involved, the
                              > directions of the separate fields have to be somewhat alligned.
                              >

                              Bill:  Does the "vectorial addition" imply that the Hum should only
                              be heard at certain locations where the fields strengthen each other?

                              --David Deming
                              Norman, Oklahoma


                              Posting Guidelines:

                              1.  No personal attacks.  But reasoned criticism of
                              ideas and theories is welcome.
                              2.  No gratuitous profanity.
                              3.  No "kook" posts.
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                              5.  Please sign all posts with your location (city, state, country).





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                              David,

                                 The discussion about direction of the electric fields of the two types of sources I mentioned is a discussion of polarization.  The electric field of the ground wave from a vertically polarized broadcast antenna will be predominately polarized vertically.  There is a small horizontal component, and all this information can be found in Sommerfeld's old book on partial differential equations (out of print, but available from used book stores).  Sommerfeld was not the first person to hypothesize existence of a ground wave, but he was the first to incorporate the ground wave into a complete description of the propagation of electromagnetic waves from antennas over ground with finite losses due to induced electric currents in the ground.  

                                 The electric field of the radiation from a cellular base station is usually either nearly vertical or nearly directed at 45 degrees.  Because the antennas are always slightly tilted toward the ground, the directions vertical and 45 degrees have to be considered relative to the direction of orientation of the antenna axis.  The 45 degrees antenna types are called dual polarization antennas, and they are often used in installations where the same antennas are used for both transmitting and receiving.  At any given time, the antenna connections are nearly instantly switched between receiving and transmitting, depending on the instantaneous needs of the system.  The significance of the type of base station arises from the fact that 45 degree polarization is almost the same as circular polarization, though the strict definition of circular polarization requires that the two orthogonal components (vertical and horizontal) of the electric field have a precise phase relationship.  The coupling of the fields from a vertically polarized broadcast source's ground wave to base stations radiating signals with near 45 degree polarization will be weaker than the coupling with the radiation from a base station with vertical polarization.  (On the other hand, FM broadcast stations usually have 45 degree polarization.)  Note that the ground wave gets weaker relative to the sky wave as the frequency increases.  This is why I think that only AM broadcast stations and other RF sources with lower frequencies can probably couple with cellular base stations, assuming that any coupling between the two different types of independent RF sources actually does exist.

                                 One thing that I haven't completely thought through concerns the fact that the two types of sources are completely independent.  This means that the phase between the two component signals will be completely random.  Thus, the only way to keep the independence of the sources in the mathematical description is to average over all phase angles.  Another problem is that the cellular base station signals have a much more complicated wave form than simple sine waves, whereas the ground waves of the low frequency sources are sinusoidal.  In principle, the complicated burst patterns of pulsed digital phone systems can be Fourier analyzed into many sine waves, and this is the only justification I have for developing a model based on the properties of sine waves.

                                 It is a little bit hard to answer your question about whether the vectorial nature of field addition implies a location dependence for the strength of the composite waves.  However, I can think of a way in which that may come about.  Variance in the ground's dielectric and conductive properties with location, will be reflected in variations of the composite wave strength with location.  This is also the reason that the weather can influence the strength of the composite wave - wet ground is more conductive than dry ground, and the ground wave is, consequently,  stronger when the ground is wet than when it is dry.  I have heard that radio stations used to water the ground near the antenna to improve their coverage in the early days of radio - that practice is now illegal.

                                 One thing that puzzles me is whether the ground wave can be focused by surface terrain features like hills and valleys.  I know that some navigation difficulties have been identified when using Loran-C, because the reflections from distant mountains in at least one circumstance have confused the precise timing of transmitted and received signals that is necessary to be able to use Loran-C for navigation.  Also, even though people usually think that only the sky wave is important at frequencies in the FM range and higher, the late Dr. Neil Cherry made measurements of the broadband radiation density in several neighborhoods around the Sutro tower in San Francisco.  The sources there are mostly FM and TV stations, and the tower (900 feet high above the ground) sits on a mountain peak.  Cherry's measurements of radiation density showed a pattern that suggested flow of the radiation like water flow, indicating that the role of the ground wave is not insignificant even at TV frequencies.

                                 I hope this discussion stimulates your thought processes, and I am eager to read the results of that stimulation in your posts in the Hum Forum.
                              ----------------------------------------------------
                              |Bill P. Curry, PhD         EMSciTek Consulting Co.|
                              |(630 858-9377              Fax (630) 858-9159     |
                              |               Physics is fun!                    | |__________________________________________________|
                            • Jim Egger
                              Christine, I would follow Bill Curry s suggestions on getting your emf checked out through independent sources. They may be able to help you get some relief. I
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jun 4, 2005
                                Christine,

                                I would follow Bill Curry's suggestions on getting your emf checked out
                                through independent sources. They may be able to help you get some relief.

                                I am hearing the hum at the usual lower level as I write this.

                                Sincerely
                                Jim Egger
                                Palmer, Alaska



                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "elfalotanoise" <elfalotanoise@...>
                                To: <humforum@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 4:22 AM
                                Subject: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not


                                >
                                >>
                                >> R.M. wrote:
                                >>
                                >>> "he same questions keep coming up:
                                >> if you think you are being 'bombarded' with 'waves' or 'signals',
                                > surely the
                                >> first thing to do is find out what can block that incoming energy,
                                > block it,
                                >> and then see if you still hear something. If a meter that
                                > measures whatever
                                >> you feel is causing your noise registers 'nil', then surely in a
                                > screened
                                >> room or space, if you still hear a noise, the noise can't be from
                                > what you
                                >> thought....yes?"
                                >
                                >
                                > R.M./anyone, please,
                                >
                                > What specific type of meter/s shall I use? Pleae be specific in what
                                > they are called and what they do. How to get them?
                                >
                                > I believe my hum may be related to electric power lines as I hear the
                                > seemingly same sound when I am in and sometimes out of my car near
                                > the poles with transformers - I also notice the sound under overhead
                                > powerlines. Yet the new gentleman states the sound he heard also
                                > sounded similar to " a 60 cycle sound. Anyway, I need to rule out
                                > electricty and am not convinced the electric co has done so.
                                >
                                > My local electric co. states my house "checks out fine" what does
                                > this mean? I have been trying to get answers re: the type of tests
                                > they performed, results etc. But have not had a response.
                                > Incidently, I was told they would call me before they came out, yet
                                > they did not, and my husband happened to encounter the representative
                                > from the electric co when he got home early from picking up the
                                > children d/t 1/2 day at school, I was at work.
                                >
                                > By the way, I was told by another electric co rep that stray voltage
                                > doen't affect humans. This seemed to me a ridiculous statement.
                                > Does she really not understand that prolonged exposure to stray
                                > voltage causes harmful side-effects? I find this hard to believe.
                                > Are these representatives trained to mislead the public? I also find
                                > this hard to believe. What do you all think? Stray voltage is one
                                > concern of my although it does not seem very feasible given the fact
                                > that the agriculural land extends for (I'll have to measure a more
                                > exact distance) approx 3/4 mi directly behind our property and then
                                > becomes a dairy operation. The distance to me seems too great.
                                > However, I am not an expert, yet the expert states that "humans
                                > aren't affected by stray voltage." She goes further to state, "If a
                                > cow in a field of stray voltage touches metal then it will be
                                > affected, but humans are not." !!! I don't feel as though people with
                                > this attitude will be able to help me.
                                >
                                > Again, who may I contact and what type of instrumentation (specifics
                                > please) do I need?
                                >
                                > Frustrated,
                                > Christine, Hudson, WI
                                >
                                >
                                >> ==================================================================
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Posting Guidelines:
                                >
                                > 1. No personal attacks. But reasoned criticism of
                                > ideas and theories is welcome.
                                > 2. No gratuitous profanity.
                                > 3. No "kook" posts.
                                > 4. Limit posts to those that are necessary and have substantive content.
                                > In general, no more than three per person per day.
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                              • elfalotanoise
                                Jim, Bill, Everyone! Jim, thank you for this encouragement and the fox & the hen house analogy-how true! Bill, your first message to me did not fall on deaf
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jun 4, 2005
                                  Jim, Bill, Everyone!

                                  Jim, thank you for this encouragement and the fox & the hen house
                                  analogy-how true! Bill, your first message to me did not fall on
                                  deaf ears, I made suggestions/enquiries to the electric co rep based
                                  on the info I had gleamed from you but they were dismissed, thank you
                                  so much for your time/responses in informing me.

                                  Incidently, I had mentioned the Stetzer filter when the elec co rep
                                  was here. And the response was that she didn't know for sure but
                                  thought that it was a case of someone profiting/taking advantage of
                                  someone else's misfortune. She states that some people did report
                                  that the filter helped but that it's probably a PLACEBO effect. As
                                  if anyone with hum perception could be pacified by a placebo effect!
                                  This was one of her first comments to me on that visit and, believe
                                  me, I saw the emporer without her clothes on!

                                  Everyone, and this means YOU, thank you for this online didactic
                                  which is nearly my sole means of support in terms of understanding
                                  this dilema. I am appreciative of all of your input, but, uncertain
                                  of potential forum ettiquette, I have not always responded to each
                                  you so as not to overload the site with surplaflous (I used to know
                                  how to spell this word!?) comments. Not to mention family jealousy
                                  over my relatively brief time on the computer which limits me. Please
                                  consider this your personal 'thank you' for your past, present &
                                  future insights.

                                  Sincerely, Christine

                                  --- In humforum@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Egger" <aeroqst@m...> wrote:
                                  > Christine,
                                  >
                                  > I would follow Bill Curry's suggestions on getting your emf checked
                                  out
                                  > through independent sources. They may be able to help you get some
                                  relief.
                                  >
                                  > I am hearing the hum at the usual lower level as I write this.
                                  >
                                  > Sincerely
                                  > Jim Egger
                                  > Palmer, Alaska
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: "elfalotanoise" <elfalotanoise@y...>
                                  > To: <humforum@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 4:22 AM
                                  > Subject: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >>
                                  > >> R.M. wrote:
                                  > >>
                                  > >>> "he same questions keep coming up:
                                  > >> if you think you are being 'bombarded' with 'waves'
                                  or 'signals',
                                  > > surely the
                                  > >> first thing to do is find out what can block that incoming
                                  energy,
                                  > > block it,
                                  > >> and then see if you still hear something. If a meter that
                                  > > measures whatever
                                  > >> you feel is causing your noise registers 'nil', then surely in a
                                  > > screened
                                  > >> room or space, if you still hear a noise, the noise can't be
                                  from
                                  > > what you
                                  > >> thought....yes?"
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > R.M./anyone, please,
                                  > >
                                  > > What specific type of meter/s shall I use? Pleae be specific in
                                  what
                                  > > they are called and what they do. How to get them?
                                  > >
                                  > > I believe my hum may be related to electric power lines as I hear
                                  the
                                  > > seemingly same sound when I am in and sometimes out of my car near
                                  > > the poles with transformers - I also notice the sound under
                                  overhead
                                  > > powerlines. Yet the new gentleman states the sound he heard also
                                  > > sounded similar to " a 60 cycle sound. Anyway, I need to rule out
                                  > > electricty and am not convinced the electric co has done so.
                                  > >
                                  > > My local electric co. states my house "checks out fine" what does
                                  > > this mean? I have been trying to get answers re: the type of tests
                                  > > they performed, results etc. But have not had a response.
                                  > > Incidently, I was told they would call me before they came out,
                                  yet
                                  > > they did not, and my husband happened to encounter the
                                  representative
                                  > > from the electric co when he got home early from picking up the
                                  > > children d/t 1/2 day at school, I was at work.
                                  > >
                                  > > By the way, I was told by another electric co rep that stray
                                  voltage
                                  > > doen't affect humans. This seemed to me a ridiculous statement.
                                  > > Does she really not understand that prolonged exposure to stray
                                  > > voltage causes harmful side-effects? I find this hard to believe.
                                  > > Are these representatives trained to mislead the public? I also
                                  find
                                  > > this hard to believe. What do you all think? Stray voltage is one
                                  > > concern of my although it does not seem very feasible given the
                                  fact
                                  > > that the agriculural land extends for (I'll have to measure a more
                                  > > exact distance) approx 3/4 mi directly behind our property and
                                  then
                                  > > becomes a dairy operation. The distance to me seems too great.
                                  > > However, I am not an expert, yet the expert states that "humans
                                  > > aren't affected by stray voltage." She goes further to
                                  state, "If a
                                  > > cow in a field of stray voltage touches metal then it will be
                                  > > affected, but humans are not." !!! I don't feel as though people
                                  with
                                  > > this attitude will be able to help me.
                                  > >
                                  > > Again, who may I contact and what type of instrumentation
                                  (specifics
                                  > > please) do I need?
                                  > >
                                  > > Frustrated,
                                  > > Christine, Hudson, WI
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>
                                  ==================================================================
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Posting Guidelines:
                                  > >
                                  > > 1. No personal attacks. But reasoned criticism of
                                  > > ideas and theories is welcome.
                                  > > 2. No gratuitous profanity.
                                  > > 3. No "kook" posts.
                                  > > 4. Limit posts to those that are necessary and have substantive
                                  content.
                                  > > In general, no more than three per person per day.
                                  > > 5. Please sign all posts with your location (city, state,
                                  country).
                                  > >
                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                • elfalotanoise
                                  Prof Deming, I believe that, once sensatized to the hum, the ability to hear the hum is not limited to just the site where the fields strengthen each other,
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 4, 2005
                                    Prof Deming,

                                    I believe that, once sensatized to the hum, the ability to hear the
                                    hum is not limited to just the site where the fields strengthen each
                                    other, but extends to other sites where the frequency/s to which one
                                    is sensatized is present in adequate intensity.

                                    A question regarding the comment:

                                    "Since vectorial addition of fields is involved, the directions of
                                    the separate fields have to be somewhat alligned."

                                    I have also read about this, as a matter of fact, my original
                                    hypothesis was that radio/cellular waves were combining to enhance
                                    each other and I was startled to read something to confirm this
                                    hypothesis. My question is alligned in what manner? The text I
                                    referred to states that this occurrs when waves converge at a 90
                                    degree angle. Is this true? Am I understanding 'vectorial addition
                                    of fields' as 'enhanced' correctly?

                                    Thank you, Christine


                                    --- In humforum@yahoogroups.com, Bill Curry <bpcurry@w...> wrote:
                                    > on 6/3/05 6:03 PM, David Deming at profdeming@e... wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > The attractiveness of this model to me is the fact that
                                    conditions have
                                    > > to be just right for the production of the kind of composite wave
                                    that I
                                    > > have described. Since vectorial addition of fields is involved,
                                    the
                                    > > directions of the separate fields have to be somewhat alligned.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > Bill: Does the "vectorial addition" imply that the Hum should only
                                    > be heard at certain locations where the fields strengthen each
                                    other?
                                    >
                                    > --David Deming
                                    > Norman, Oklahoma
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Posting Guidelines:
                                    >
                                    > 1. No personal attacks. But reasoned criticism of
                                    > ideas and theories is welcome.
                                    > 2. No gratuitous profanity.
                                    > 3. No "kook" posts.
                                    > 4. Limit posts to those that are necessary and have substantive
                                    content.
                                    > In general, no more than three per person per day.
                                    > 5. Please sign all posts with your location (city, state, country).
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/humforum/
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > humforum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > <mailto:humforum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                    >
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                                    > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > David,
                                    >
                                    > The discussion about direction of the electric fields of the two
                                    types of
                                    > sources I mentioned is a discussion of polarization. The electric
                                    field of
                                    > the ground wave from a vertically polarized broadcast antenna will
                                    be
                                    > predominately polarized vertically. There is a small horizontal
                                    component,
                                    > and all this information can be found in Sommerfeld's old book on
                                    partial
                                    > differential equations (out of print, but available from used book
                                    stores).
                                    > Sommerfeld was not the first person to hypothesize existence of a
                                    ground
                                    > wave, but he was the first to incorporate the ground wave into a
                                    complete
                                    > description of the propagation of electromagnetic waves from
                                    antennas over
                                    > ground with finite losses due to induced electric currents in the
                                    ground.
                                    >
                                    > The electric field of the radiation from a cellular base station
                                    is
                                    > usually either nearly vertical or nearly directed at 45 degrees.
                                    Because
                                    > the antennas are always slightly tilted toward the ground, the
                                    directions
                                    > vertical and 45 degrees have to be considered relative to the
                                    direction of
                                    > orientation of the antenna axis. The 45 degrees antenna types are
                                    called
                                    > dual polarization antennas, and they are often used in
                                    installations where
                                    > the same antennas are used for both transmitting and receiving. At
                                    any
                                    > given time, the antenna connections are nearly instantly switched
                                    between
                                    > receiving and transmitting, depending on the instantaneous needs of
                                    the
                                    > system. The significance of the type of base station arises from
                                    the fact
                                    > that 45 degree polarization is almost the same as circular
                                    polarization,
                                    > though the strict definition of circular polarization requires that
                                    the two
                                    > orthogonal components (vertical and horizontal) of the electric
                                    field have a
                                    > precise phase relationship. The coupling of the fields from a
                                    vertically
                                    > polarized broadcast source's ground wave to base stations radiating
                                    signals
                                    > with near 45 degree polarization will be weaker than the coupling
                                    with the
                                    > radiation from a base station with vertical polarization. (On the
                                    other
                                    > hand, FM broadcast stations usually have 45 degree polarization.)
                                    Note that
                                    > the ground wave gets weaker relative to the sky wave as the
                                    frequency
                                    > increases. This is why I think that only AM broadcast stations and
                                    other RF
                                    > sources with lower frequencies can probably couple with cellular
                                    base
                                    > stations, assuming that any coupling between the two different
                                    types of
                                    > independent RF sources actually does exist.
                                    >
                                    > One thing that I haven't completely thought through concerns the
                                    fact
                                    > that the two types of sources are completely independent. This
                                    means that
                                    > the phase between the two component signals will be completely
                                    random.
                                    > Thus, the only way to keep the independence of the sources in the
                                    > mathematical description is to average over all phase angles.
                                    Another
                                    > problem is that the cellular base station signals have a much more
                                    > complicated wave form than simple sine waves, whereas the ground
                                    waves of
                                    > the low frequency sources are sinusoidal. In principle, the
                                    complicated
                                    > burst patterns of pulsed digital phone systems can be Fourier
                                    analyzed into
                                    > many sine waves, and this is the only justification I have for
                                    developing a
                                    > model based on the properties of sine waves.
                                    >
                                    > It is a little bit hard to answer your question about whether the
                                    > vectorial nature of field addition implies a location dependence
                                    for the
                                    > strength of the composite waves. However, I can think of a way in
                                    which
                                    > that may come about. Variance in the ground's dielectric and
                                    conductive
                                    > properties with location, will be reflected in variations of the
                                    composite
                                    > wave strength with location. This is also the reason that the
                                    weather can
                                    > influence the strength of the composite wave - wet ground is more
                                    conductive
                                    > than dry ground, and the ground wave is, consequently, stronger
                                    when the
                                    > ground is wet than when it is dry. I have heard that radio
                                    stations used to
                                    > water the ground near the antenna to improve their coverage in the
                                    early
                                    > days of radio - that practice is now illegal.
                                    >
                                    > One thing that puzzles me is whether the ground wave can be
                                    focused by
                                    > surface terrain features like hills and valleys. I know that some
                                    > navigation difficulties have been identified when using Loran-C,
                                    because the
                                    > reflections from distant mountains in at least one circumstance have
                                    > confused the precise timing of transmitted and received signals
                                    that is
                                    > necessary to be able to use Loran-C for navigation. Also, even
                                    though
                                    > people usually think that only the sky wave is important at
                                    frequencies in
                                    > the FM range and higher, the late Dr. Neil Cherry made measurements
                                    of the
                                    > broadband radiation density in several neighborhoods around the
                                    Sutro tower
                                    > in San Francisco. The sources there are mostly FM and TV stations,
                                    and the
                                    > tower (900 feet high above the ground) sits on a mountain peak.
                                    Cherry's
                                    > measurements of radiation density showed a pattern that suggested
                                    flow of
                                    > the radiation like water flow, indicating that the role of the
                                    ground wave
                                    > is not insignificant even at TV frequencies.
                                    >
                                    > I hope this discussion stimulates your thought processes, and I
                                    am eager
                                    > to read the results of that stimulation in your posts in the Hum
                                    Forum.
                                    > ----------------------------------------------------
                                    > |Bill P. Curry, PhD EMSciTek Consulting Co.|
                                    > |(630 858-9377 Fax (630) 858-9159 |
                                    > | Physics is fun! |
                                    > |__________________________________________________|
                                  • Bill Curry
                                    ... Dear Maggie, You certainly have posed a litany of thought provoking questions. I ll try to answer them, but I don t claim to have all the answers. I have
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 6, 2005
                                      on 6/3/05 6:34 PM, coatesmargaret at coatesmargaret@... wrote:

                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi Bill
                                      > I think maybe your message connects up a few dots for what I've been
                                      > experiencing in this
                                      > area. I can't do the science but I can do the observations and I have some
                                      > questions.
                                      >
                                      > 1) Would clay soil and the height of the water table affect the coupling of
                                      > the waves?
                                      > Someone wrote about magnetite in clay and i've wondered about the drastic
                                      > lowering of
                                      > the water table here during recent droughts.
                                      >
                                      > 2) My argument is that sources such as standard broadcast stations or even
                                      >> the Loran-C radio sources produce such long wavelength ground waves that
                                      >> cellular towers are completely immersed in the field of the ground wave.
                                      >
                                      > I don't hear the hum near water sources, even very quiet water, so no masking
                                      > would
                                      > be happening. Would stretches of water break up a composite ground wave?
                                      >
                                      > 3) The attractiveness of this model to me is the fact that conditions have
                                      >> to be just right for the production of the kind of composite wave that I
                                      >> have described. Since vectorial addition of fields is involved, the
                                      >> directions of the separate fields have to be somewhat alligned.
                                      >
                                      > Will it ever be possible do you think, to plot the alignment of various
                                      > installations etc
                                      > and thus find the areas at least risk?
                                      >
                                      > 4) About microwave hearing. Is intense facial heat followed by a day or two
                                      > of the skin
                                      > being
                                      > really tender to the touch, a known effect of microwave heating?
                                      >
                                      > 5) I've checked variations in hum intensity against holiday times, probable
                                      > times of high
                                      > cell phone usage, weather effects like rough seas, humidity levels and sunspot
                                      > activity and
                                      > high traffic, industrial noise, possible line sources like water pumps and
                                      > local aircraft/
                                      > airport noise. None have checked out completely. Your hypothesis makes a lot
                                      > of sense
                                      > in that the hum arises from a number of sources moderated by various other
                                      > factors.
                                      >
                                      > Do you see acoustic noise acting separately from EM or could it form part of
                                      > the
                                      > composite ground wave?
                                      >
                                      > Bill, is it OK to pass on your messages to other people or companies who
                                      > might find them
                                      > useful?
                                      > Maggie
                                      > E Coast Aust
                                      >
                                      > --- In humforum@yahoogroups.com, Bill Curry <bpcurry@w...> wrote:
                                      >> on 6/3/05 7:22 AM, elfalotanoise at elfalotanoise@y... wrote:
                                      >>>
                                      >> Hi folks, Yahoo bounced me off the Yahoo Groups for a few days, so I am not
                                      >> up to date on all that has transpired on the Hum forum. Nevertheless, I
                                      >> want to answer some posts that came in recently.
                                      >>
                                      >> Christine,
                                      >>
                                      >> Some people in your area who have had experience with "stray voltage"
                                      >> effects are Dave Stetzer in Blair Wisconsin and Dr. Duane Dahlberg, retired
                                      >> Phsics Prof. from Concordia College in the Minneapolis area. Both have
                                      >> testified in legal cases involving the power industry and dairy farmers.
                                      >>
                                      >> Dave Stetzer has a company (Stetzer Electric) in Blair, and he and Dr.
                                      >> Martin Graham, retired Electrical Engineering Prof. at Univ. of Calif.,
                                      >> Berkeley, have studied health effects related to RF pollution on home power
                                      >> lines. Graham developed an instrument to measure the extent of RF pollution
                                      >> on residential power lines, and he and Stetzer have developed filters to
                                      >> remove the currents that are the consequence of RF pollution. Stetzer sells
                                      >> an improved version of Graham's original RF pollution meter called the
                                      >> "microsurge meter." I have used a meter equipped with Graham's original
                                      >> circuit. The new meter circuit is better because it includes a higher range
                                      >> of RF frequencies than the original one. When filters are used to remove RF
                                      >> pollution, as many as 20 different filters may be required for success, and
                                      >> they are expensive.
                                      >>
                                      >> Stetzer and Dr. Magda Havas from Trent University in Peterborough,
                                      >> Ontario, Canada have several recent publications on the health of people
                                      >> living with RF pollution of power lines and their improvement when the
                                      >> filters were installed. Their latest collaboration was a paper presented to
                                      >> the World Health Organization. I have an electronic copy of this paper.
                                      >> Stetzer is an electrical engineer and formerly worked around Air Force
                                      >> radars. I have worked with him on one occasion. Havas is a medical
                                      >> researcher and epidemiologist whose conclusions are based on careful
                                      >> statistical analysis, so I think you can trust their joint results.
                                      >>
                                      >> After all this, you may well be wondering whether any of this has
                                      >> anything to do with the Hum. My answer is that when my wife and I made
                                      >> electromagnetic measurements in Kokomo, Indiana, 3 out of the 4 homes of
                                      >> Hum sufferers where we measured had significant RF pollution of their home
                                      >> power lines, as indicated by Graham's original meter circuit connected to a
                                      >> standard digital RMS voltmeter. RF radiation was observed (with a broadband
                                      >> RF field meter that is very sensitive) coming out wall sockets, cable TV
                                      >> (with the TV set turned off, but the cable still connected), etc. In these
                                      >> cases, a strong source of RF pollution was an AM radio station at 1350 kHz
                                      >> that had unusually high electric field strength. Because my broadband RF
                                      >> meter had an AM detector, I could hear the audio signal of the broadcast
                                      >> station when I placed the meter near the wall sockets in one residence. The
                                      >> power lines were old, probably poorly grounded, and in one instance, the
                                      >> power line, the cable TV cable, and the phone line were all within a foot of
                                      >> each other at one location in the residence's back yard.
                                      >>
                                      >> In addition to all this, there was a strong signal from one or more
                                      >> Nextel cellular phone base station(s) that was identified by its partial
                                      >> spectrum as measured on my spectrum analyzer. This signal was always near
                                      >> 858 MHz frequency, and it was about 10 decibels stronger than other signals
                                      >> that I measured at frequencies between 1600 and 2000 MHz (signals
                                      >> corresponding to pulsed digital phone base stations of other providers.
                                      >>
                                      >> Nextel has pulsed digital transmissions at frequencies where one
                                      >> wouldn't ordinarily expect such transmissions, because the FCC licensed them
                                      >> to take frequencies interleaved with radios for public safety, taxi
                                      >> dispatch, bus dispatch, etc. The resulting interference with police and
                                      >> fire radio systems has caused the FCC to require that the frequencies
                                      >> eventually be reallocated in that region of the spectrum, but the change is
                                      >> slow in coming. Thus, I was able to identify the Nextel signal by its
                                      >> strength, its spectrum, and the way the spectral peak near 858 MHz varied
                                      >> from day to day and location to location. Motorola, which developed the
                                      >> technology that Nextel uses, has a frequency allocation algorithm, and my
                                      >> measurements agreed within the stated accuracy of the spectrum analyzer with
                                      >> the formula that Motorola uses to allocate the RF carrier frequency of each
                                      >> new phone call.
                                      >>
                                      >> Again, how does all this relate to Hum sufferers? First, in measuring
                                      >> RF signal strength at homes of people who live near cellular base stations,
                                      >> I am usually asked to do so by people who suffer from very similar physical
                                      >> symptoms as those described by those Hum sufferers who hear the "idling
                                      >> diesel" sounds, except that they don't hear the Hum. They endure dizziness,
                                      >> nausea, fainting spells, headaches, blood pressure problems, heart
                                      >> palpitations, worsening of diabetic symptoms, seizures, etc. Most of the
                                      >> reported symptoms are those which Former Soviet Scientists categorized as RF
                                      >> Sickness Syndrome or Microwave Sickness Syndrome. Their work, which was
                                      >> carried out over about 40 years time, has not been well accepted in the
                                      >> West.
                                      >>
                                      >> The second reason that I think cellular base stations (or other pulsed
                                      >> RF sources) play a part in the Hum related problems is that they are pulsed
                                      >> with some pulsing frequencies that coincide with specific brain waves as
                                      >> measured on EEG's. I do not think that the base stations are powerful
                                      >> enough to be the sole source of problems for hum sufferers, but I think that
                                      >> in combination with other powerful RF sources, the base station radiation,
                                      >> superimposed on the signals from powerful RF sources with much lower carrier
                                      >> frequencies (but still in the RF frequency range) may cause at least some of
                                      >> the Hum problems. This is a point on which Kurt and I disagree.
                                      >>
                                      >> My argument is that sources such as standard broadcast stations or even
                                      >> the Loran-C radio sources produce such long wavelength ground waves that
                                      >> cellular towers are completely immersed in the field of the ground wave.
                                      >> Under these circumstances, I think that the electric field of the ground
                                      >> wave and the electric field of the base station radiation (with much higher
                                      >> frequency) will add vectorially. When you use this argument and carry out
                                      >> the mathematics to evaluate the radiation density of the composite source,
                                      >> you find that there are cross product terms that have the amplitude of the
                                      >> electric field from the low RF frequency source multiplying the amplitude of
                                      >> the electric field of the radiation from the cellular base station. Note
                                      >> that these cross product terms will vanish if you average over the cycles of
                                      >> the waves of the two different types of sources. This means that the
                                      >> addition of the fields from these sources will not change the average power
                                      >> level of the composite waves from those of the separate sources, but will
                                      >> change the instantaneous power level of the composite waves. This argument
                                      >> requires that the frequencies of the two separate sources be very different.
                                      >> If any of you are interested in this argument, you will find it in a paper
                                      >> that I presented at a public health conference in Salzburg, Austria in the
                                      >> year 2000. My calculation of the ground wave from a broadcast station in
                                      >> the vicinity of a cellular base station leaves a lot to be desired, but I
                                      >> don't think the basic argument is weakened by the need to use a better
                                      >> ground wave model. If you want to see this paper, search on Google for the
                                      >> "International Scientific Conference on Cell Tower Siting." The recovered
                                      >> web sites are separately in English and in German. The papers presented at
                                      >> this meeting are all available to download (free) as PDF files. Kurt, I
                                      >> would appreciate your evaluation of my arguments. In something as
                                      >> speculative as what I have proposed, a good dose of healthy skepticism is
                                      >> always advisable!
                                      >>
                                      >> The attractiveness of this model to me is the fact that conditions have
                                      >> to be just right for the production of the kind of composite wave that I
                                      >> have described. Since vectorial addition of fields is involved, the
                                      >> directions of the separate fields have to be somewhat alligned. Further,
                                      >> the characteristics of the ground wave will be strongly dependent on the
                                      >> frequency of the low frequency RF source, the dielectric constant of the
                                      >> ground and the electrical conductivity of the ground (both of which also
                                      >> depend on the frequency of the low frequency RF source) so weather
                                      >> conditions will affect how well the two types of waves couple. Finally, if
                                      >> the effective RF frequency of the composite wave is sufficiently high for
                                      >> microwave hearing to be excited, the pulsing nature of the base station (or
                                      >> other pulsed source) will determine the audio characteristics of the
                                      >> perceived sound. If the individual sources are strong enough, this argument
                                      >> can apply to many different source types (as individual source components).
                                      >> The low frequency components could be broadcast radio stations, ELF
                                      >> navigation beacons such as Loran, etc. The high RF frequency pulsed sources
                                      >> could be cellular base stations, pulsed radars, etc. as long as the carrier
                                      >> wave frequency is 200 MHz or higher (but probably not much higher than 3
                                      >> GHz). The resulting phenomenon would be microwave hearing that exhibits the
                                      >> characteristics of pulsation of the high RF frequency source. Further, the
                                      >> "pitch" of the perceived sounds would be commensurate with the pulsing
                                      >> frequecy, as shown by Allan Frey's early experiments on microwave hearing.
                                      >>
                                      >> This kind of argument is anathema to most scientists and engineers,
                                      >> because it is conventional practice to average over a cycle of a wave.
                                      >> Otherwise, the math in evaluating the Poynting vector (magnitude and
                                      >> direction of energy flow) is just awful. If you assume that only biological
                                      >> heating is a possible health hazard of RF waves, then averaging is essential
                                      >> and is part of the FCC protocol for measurements of compliance with FCC
                                      >> guidelines. On the other hand, measurements with picosecond lasers have
                                      >> shown that biochemical processes can respond to nearly instantaneous changes
                                      >> in stimuli - especially electromagnetic stimuli.
                                      >>
                                      >> I invite you all to critique my arguments. I won't be offended if you
                                      >> disagree with me.
                                      >>
                                      >> Regards, Bill
                                      >> ----------------------------------------------------
                                      >> |Bill P. Curry, PhD EMSciTek Consulting Co.|
                                      >> |(630 858-9377 Fax (630) 858-9159 |
                                      >> | Physics is fun! |
                                      >> |__________________________________________________|
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                                      Dear Maggie,
                                      You certainly have posed a litany of thought provoking questions. I'll
                                      try to answer them, but I don't claim to have all the answers. I have no
                                      objections to your giving my responses to other people, but please recognize
                                      that my responses are tentative and may not always be reliable.
                                      Your first question concerns whether having clay soil that might contain
                                      magnetite and may have been significantly dried out on account of the
                                      lowering of the water table. Ultimately you need to have the dielectric
                                      constant and the electrical conductivity of the soil as it is now. Since
                                      you don't have that information you could probably get those parameters for
                                      dry clay and test the effect of the moisture content by arbitrarily
                                      increasing the electrical conductivity several orders of magnitude to
                                      simulate the conditions that you may have had before the lowering of the
                                      water table. Without having done any calculations on your specific
                                      situation, I expect that the ground wave would be weaker over dry soil than
                                      over wet soil.
                                      In my Salzburg paper, I calculated the electric field strength for
                                      radiation at several distances from WGY in Schenectady, New York. This is a
                                      50,000 watt AM broadcast station at 810 kHz frequency (or 370 m wavelength).
                                      The field strength calculation included both the sky wave and the ground
                                      wave. I "calibrated" the calculation by comparing my results at 1 km from
                                      the radio station with the values the FCC have stated on their web site. My
                                      calculation gave 20 V/m field strength, and the FCC stated value is 19.15,
                                      indicating my calculation is fairly good - in spite of some of the
                                      assumptions I made to be able to reduce the calculation to tractability. I
                                      then calculated the field for the region between 6 and 6.5 km from the
                                      broadcast station, because people live on a 180 ft. high ridge in that
                                      region and because there is a cell tower with antennas from two different
                                      providers on it residences of people located from 150 m to 500 m away from
                                      the tower and about 6 km from WGY. In this region, the WGY field under dry
                                      conditions was about 2 V/m. Under wet conditions, it doubled, because the
                                      reflectivity of the wet ground is much higher than for dry earth on account
                                      of the conductivity enhancement of wet earth.
                                      Using parameters I obtained for two sets of cellular base station
                                      antennas on a tower 150 m from the people on the ridge and about 6 km from
                                      WGY, I estimated the field from the cell tower for one station without any
                                      enhancement by the WGY ground wave to be 1.34 microwatts per square
                                      centimeter. The other base station antennas gave a contribution of very
                                      similar magnitude 1.4 microwatts per square centimeter. Thus, without any
                                      enhancement by the ground wave of WGY, the two cell tower providers
                                      contributed a total radiation density at 150 m distance from the tower of
                                      2.74 microwatts per square centimeter. When account was taken of the WGY
                                      ground wave, these radiation densities were enhanced by a factor of about 6
                                      for dry conditions and about 9 for wet conditions. Thus the total radiation
                                      density of the composite waves varied from 16.4 microwatts per square
                                      centimeter for dry conditions to 24.7 microwatts per square centimeter for
                                      very wet ground. My only evidence that this result is anywhere near
                                      reasonable is the fact that measurements made with a broadband RF meter
                                      (after corrections for calibration errors made by a third party) was about
                                      17 microwatts per square centimeter.
                                      I didn't have such ggod results at a more distant location 500 m from
                                      the tower. There, my calculation for the radiation density due to the two
                                      sets of base station antennas was 0.247 microwatt per square centimeter
                                      without the WGY ground wave. Including the effect of the WGY ground wave
                                      increased the radiation density to 1.48 microwatts per square centimeter for
                                      dry conditions to 2.22 microwatts per square centimeter. The measurement at
                                      this location was about 6 microwatts per square centimeter. I have spent so
                                      much time discussing the possible enhancement of the cell tower radiation
                                      density by the WGY ground wave to illustrate how I think the pulsed
                                      microwave radiation emitted by cell tower might be enhanced by a much lower
                                      frequency source sufficiently to lead to microwave hearing. If so, the
                                      characteristics of the perceived sound would depend on the waveform of the
                                      cell tower sources.
                                      Your second question concerned whether waterways would disrupt the
                                      ground waves. Generally, no. Salt water certainly enhances ground waves,
                                      because it increases the conductivity more than that of pure water. Of
                                      course, rivers usually have many kinds of dissolved minerals, so I would
                                      expect the ground wave to be enhanced. Since ground waves follow the
                                      surface of the terrain, you might find that river valleys would have a
                                      channeling effect that would make the ground wave strength vary with
                                      position. However, in the situation I described it would take a very deep
                                      valley to have any channeling effect, because the wavelength of the WGY
                                      radiation was 370 m. Incidentally, one notable characteristic of ground
                                      waves is that they die out more slowly with distance from the source than do
                                      sky waves, which follow the inverse square distance law.
                                      You asked about whether the alignment of the fields from various
                                      installations had been plotted or could be plotted. Certainly, the
                                      characteristics of the fields radiated by the antennas of any given source
                                      (including the polarization direction) can be characterized and plotted
                                      versus position. The problem is to locate all the RF sources in any given
                                      region and catalogue their characteristics. A friend of mine, Libby Kelley,
                                      once had a grant to map and characterize the RF sources in Marin County,
                                      California to try to see whether these sources correlated with the very high
                                      rates of breast cancer in the county - the highest in the US and perhaps in
                                      the world. I don't know whether she has continued this wark since she has
                                      left California and moved to Arizona. It is very difficult to get all the
                                      information that one needs in this kind of project, especially when many of
                                      the sources have military origins.
                                      You also asked whether facial heat and skin tenderness could be
                                      associated with microwave heating or microwave hearing. Studies over a
                                      considerable number of years by Drs. Reba Goodman and Martin Blank at
                                      Columbia University in New York City have indicated that RF radiation at
                                      levels far below those that cause biological heating induce the emission of
                                      heat shock proteins. This has been named the "stress response," because
                                      cells stressed by biological heating, by chemical toxins, and by absorption
                                      of RF radiation emit these proteins in an effort to protect themselves.
                                      This action is protective, because these proteins have the ability to refold
                                      other damaged protein molecules. This is one of the body's repair
                                      mechanisms. Sometimes, the body's immune system reacts to these stress
                                      proteins as foreign proteins and an allergic reaction occurs. People I know
                                      who are electrosensitive often have rashes and chemical sensitvity, also.
                                      Once, I saw an elderly man (in the scientific meeting I attended in
                                      Salzburg, Austria) pull up his trouser legs. His own legs were as red as a
                                      boiled lobster, and he was complaining that his government was not
                                      protecting him from adverse effects of RF radiation. He and his wife lived
                                      in an apartment building across the street from a commercial building on
                                      which cellular base station antennas had recently been installed. I suspect
                                      that he was experiencing the stress response that I described above.
                                      However, it must be added that he had a steel plate in at least one leg.
                                      (Whether both legs, I don't know.) Such a plate would certainly enhance the
                                      fields near the edges of the plate.
                                      You asked whether acoustic noise could be part of the composite
                                      electromagnetic effects. I don't thinks so for this reason: acoustic waves
                                      are longitudinal waves - i.e., the wave crests and nulls occur in the same
                                      direction as the wave propagation. Electromagnetic waves, instead, are
                                      transverse waves. Their crests and nulls occur perpendicular to the wave
                                      propagation direction many wavelengths from the wave source. The
                                      piezoelectric field is a transduction mechanism by which electric fields can
                                      produce acoustic disturbances or mechanical pressure can produce electric
                                      fields, but neither can occur without a transducer being present. In this
                                      case, the transducer is a crystal with piezoelectric properties. (Such
                                      crystals used to be one means for production of a weak electric current when
                                      a needle tracked a groove in a phonograph record. The weak current was
                                      amplified and applied to a loudspeaker, and we heard sound.)
                                      ----------------------------------------------------
                                      |Bill P. Curry, PhD EMSciTek Consulting Co.|
                                      |(630 858-9377 Fax (630) 858-9159 |
                                      | Physics is fun! |
                                      |__________________________________________________|
                                    • coatesmargaret
                                      Thanks Bill for taking the time to answer my questions. There s a lot to digest and I m reassured by the information about heat stress proteins having a
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 7, 2005
                                        Thanks Bill for taking the time to answer my questions. There's a lot to digest and I'm
                                        reassured by the information about heat stress proteins having a protective function. Yes I
                                        do have chemical sensitivities but not rashes. Also of interest, on two of the three
                                        occasions I've had the heat reaction, I've been within 100 metres and 250 metres of an AM
                                        broadcast station.

                                        You say the
                                        > piezoelectric field is a transduction mechanism by which electric fields can
                                        > produce acoustic disturbances or mechanical pressure can produce electric
                                        > fields, but neither can occur without a transducer being present. In this
                                        > case, the transducer is a crystal with piezoelectric properties. (Such
                                        > crystals used to be one means for production of a weak electric current when
                                        > a needle tracked a groove in a phonograph record. The weak current was
                                        > amplified and applied to a loudspeaker, and we heard sound.)

                                        In our house are some very clear, quartz crystals that were picked up on a fossicking trip.
                                        They come from an area which was the main supply source for radios in the early part of
                                        last century. Is it possible they could be causing or intensifying the hum in some way?
                                        Maggie
                                        E Coast Aust

                                        --- In humforum@yahoogroups.com, Bill Curry <bpcurry@w...> wrote:
                                        > on 6/3/05 6:34 PM, coatesmargaret at coatesmargaret@y... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi Bill
                                        > > I think maybe your message connects up a few dots for what I've been
                                        > > experiencing in this
                                        > > area. I can't do the science but I can do the observations and I have some
                                        > > questions.
                                        > >
                                        > > 1) Would clay soil and the height of the water table affect the coupling of
                                        > > the waves?
                                        > > Someone wrote about magnetite in clay and i've wondered about the drastic
                                        > > lowering of
                                        > > the water table here during recent droughts.
                                        > >
                                        > > 2) My argument is that sources such as standard broadcast stations or even
                                        > >> the Loran-C radio sources produce such long wavelength ground waves that
                                        > >> cellular towers are completely immersed in the field of the ground wave.
                                        > >
                                        > > I don't hear the hum near water sources, even very quiet water, so no masking
                                        > > would
                                        > > be happening. Would stretches of water break up a composite ground wave?
                                        > >
                                        > > 3) The attractiveness of this model to me is the fact that conditions have
                                        > >> to be just right for the production of the kind of composite wave that I
                                        > >> have described. Since vectorial addition of fields is involved, the
                                        > >> directions of the separate fields have to be somewhat alligned.
                                        > >
                                        > > Will it ever be possible do you think, to plot the alignment of various
                                        > > installations etc
                                        > > and thus find the areas at least risk?
                                        > >
                                        > > 4) About microwave hearing. Is intense facial heat followed by a day or two
                                        > > of the skin
                                        > > being
                                        > > really tender to the touch, a known effect of microwave heating?
                                        > >
                                        > > 5) I've checked variations in hum intensity against holiday times, probable
                                        > > times of high
                                        > > cell phone usage, weather effects like rough seas, humidity levels and sunspot
                                        > > activity and
                                        > > high traffic, industrial noise, possible line sources like water pumps and
                                        > > local aircraft/
                                        > > airport noise. None have checked out completely. Your hypothesis makes a lot
                                        > > of sense
                                        > > in that the hum arises from a number of sources moderated by various other
                                        > > factors.
                                        > >
                                        > > Do you see acoustic noise acting separately from EM or could it form part of
                                        > > the
                                        > > composite ground wave?
                                        > >
                                        > > Bill, is it OK to pass on your messages to other people or companies who
                                        > > might find them
                                        > > useful?
                                        > > Maggie
                                        > > E Coast Aust
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In humforum@yahoogroups.com, Bill Curry <bpcurry@w...> wrote:
                                        > >> on 6/3/05 7:22 AM, elfalotanoise at elfalotanoise@y... wrote:
                                        > >>>
                                        > >> Hi folks, Yahoo bounced me off the Yahoo Groups for a few days, so I am not
                                        > >> up to date on all that has transpired on the Hum forum. Nevertheless, I
                                        > >> want to answer some posts that came in recently.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> Christine,
                                        > >>
                                        > >> Some people in your area who have had experience with "stray voltage"
                                        > >> effects are Dave Stetzer in Blair Wisconsin and Dr. Duane Dahlberg, retired
                                        > >> Phsics Prof. from Concordia College in the Minneapolis area. Both have
                                        > >> testified in legal cases involving the power industry and dairy farmers.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> Dave Stetzer has a company (Stetzer Electric) in Blair, and he and Dr.
                                        > >> Martin Graham, retired Electrical Engineering Prof. at Univ. of Calif.,
                                        > >> Berkeley, have studied health effects related to RF pollution on home power
                                        > >> lines. Graham developed an instrument to measure the extent of RF pollution
                                        > >> on residential power lines, and he and Stetzer have developed filters to
                                        > >> remove the currents that are the consequence of RF pollution. Stetzer sells
                                        > >> an improved version of Graham's original RF pollution meter called the
                                        > >> "microsurge meter." I have used a meter equipped with Graham's original
                                        > >> circuit. The new meter circuit is better because it includes a higher range
                                        > >> of RF frequencies than the original one. When filters are used to remove RF
                                        > >> pollution, as many as 20 different filters may be required for success, and
                                        > >> they are expensive.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> Stetzer and Dr. Magda Havas from Trent University in Peterborough,
                                        > >> Ontario, Canada have several recent publications on the health of people
                                        > >> living with RF pollution of power lines and their improvement when the
                                        > >> filters were installed. Their latest collaboration was a paper presented to
                                        > >> the World Health Organization. I have an electronic copy of this paper.
                                        > >> Stetzer is an electrical engineer and formerly worked around Air Force
                                        > >> radars. I have worked with him on one occasion. Havas is a medical
                                        > >> researcher and epidemiologist whose conclusions are based on careful
                                        > >> statistical analysis, so I think you can trust their joint results.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> After all this, you may well be wondering whether any of this has
                                        > >> anything to do with the Hum. My answer is that when my wife and I made
                                        > >> electromagnetic measurements in Kokomo, Indiana, 3 out of the 4 homes of
                                        > >> Hum sufferers where we measured had significant RF pollution of their home
                                        > >> power lines, as indicated by Graham's original meter circuit connected to a
                                        > >> standard digital RMS voltmeter. RF radiation was observed (with a broadband
                                        > >> RF field meter that is very sensitive) coming out wall sockets, cable TV
                                        > >> (with the TV set turned off, but the cable still connected), etc. In these
                                        > >> cases, a strong source of RF pollution was an AM radio station at 1350 kHz
                                        > >> that had unusually high electric field strength. Because my broadband RF
                                        > >> meter had an AM detector, I could hear the audio signal of the broadcast
                                        > >> station when I placed the meter near the wall sockets in one residence. The
                                        > >> power lines were old, probably poorly grounded, and in one instance, the
                                        > >> power line, the cable TV cable, and the phone line were all within a foot of
                                        > >> each other at one location in the residence's back yard.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> In addition to all this, there was a strong signal from one or more
                                        > >> Nextel cellular phone base station(s) that was identified by its partial
                                        > >> spectrum as measured on my spectrum analyzer. This signal was always near
                                        > >> 858 MHz frequency, and it was about 10 decibels stronger than other signals
                                        > >> that I measured at frequencies between 1600 and 2000 MHz (signals
                                        > >> corresponding to pulsed digital phone base stations of other providers.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> Nextel has pulsed digital transmissions at frequencies where one
                                        > >> wouldn't ordinarily expect such transmissions, because the FCC licensed them
                                        > >> to take frequencies interleaved with radios for public safety, taxi
                                        > >> dispatch, bus dispatch, etc. The resulting interference with police and
                                        > >> fire radio systems has caused the FCC to require that the frequencies
                                        > >> eventually be reallocated in that region of the spectrum, but the change is
                                        > >> slow in coming. Thus, I was able to identify the Nextel signal by its
                                        > >> strength, its spectrum, and the way the spectral peak near 858 MHz varied
                                        > >> from day to day and location to location. Motorola, which developed the
                                        > >> technology that Nextel uses, has a frequency allocation algorithm, and my
                                        > >> measurements agreed within the stated accuracy of the spectrum analyzer with
                                        > >> the formula that Motorola uses to allocate the RF carrier frequency of each
                                        > >> new phone call.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> Again, how does all this relate to Hum sufferers? First, in measuring
                                        > >> RF signal strength at homes of people who live near cellular base stations,
                                        > >> I am usually asked to do so by people who suffer from very similar physical
                                        > >> symptoms as those described by those Hum sufferers who hear the "idling
                                        > >> diesel" sounds, except that they don't hear the Hum. They endure dizziness,
                                        > >> nausea, fainting spells, headaches, blood pressure problems, heart
                                        > >> palpitations, worsening of diabetic symptoms, seizures, etc. Most of the
                                        > >> reported symptoms are those which Former Soviet Scientists categorized as RF
                                        > >> Sickness Syndrome or Microwave Sickness Syndrome. Their work, which was
                                        > >> carried out over about 40 years time, has not been well accepted in the
                                        > >> West.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> The second reason that I think cellular base stations (or other pulsed
                                        > >> RF sources) play a part in the Hum related problems is that they are pulsed
                                        > >> with some pulsing frequencies that coincide with specific brain waves as
                                        > >> measured on EEG's. I do not think that the base stations are powerful
                                        > >> enough to be the sole source of problems for hum sufferers, but I think that
                                        > >> in combination with other powerful RF sources, the base station radiation,
                                        > >> superimposed on the signals from powerful RF sources with much lower carrier
                                        > >> frequencies (but still in the RF frequency range) may cause at least some of
                                        > >> the Hum problems. This is a point on which Kurt and I disagree.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> My argument is that sources such as standard broadcast stations or even
                                        > >> the Loran-C radio sources produce such long wavelength ground waves that
                                        > >> cellular towers are completely immersed in the field of the ground wave.
                                        > >> Under these circumstances, I think that the electric field of the ground
                                        > >> wave and the electric field of the base station radiation (with much higher
                                        > >> frequency) will add vectorially. When you use this argument and carry out
                                        > >> the mathematics to evaluate the radiation density of the composite source,
                                        > >> you find that there are cross product terms that have the amplitude of the
                                        > >> electric field from the low RF frequency source multiplying the amplitude of
                                        > >> the electric field of the radiation from the cellular base station. Note
                                        > >> that these cross product terms will vanish if you average over the cycles of
                                        > >> the waves of the two different types of sources. This means that the
                                        > >> addition of the fields from these sources will not change the average power
                                        > >> level of the composite waves from those of the separate sources, but will
                                        > >> change the instantaneous power level of the composite waves. This argument
                                        > >> requires that the frequencies of the two separate sources be very different.
                                        > >> If any of you are interested in this argument, you will find it in a paper
                                        > >> that I presented at a public health conference in Salzburg, Austria in the
                                        > >> year 2000. My calculation of the ground wave from a broadcast station in
                                        > >> the vicinity of a cellular base station leaves a lot to be desired, but I
                                        > >> don't think the basic argument is weakened by the need to use a better
                                        > >> ground wave model. If you want to see this paper, search on Google for the
                                        > >> "International Scientific Conference on Cell Tower Siting." The recovered
                                        > >> web sites are separately in English and in German. The papers presented at
                                        > >> this meeting are all available to download (free) as PDF files. Kurt, I
                                        > >> would appreciate your evaluation of my arguments. In something as
                                        > >> speculative as what I have proposed, a good dose of healthy skepticism is
                                        > >> always advisable!
                                        > >>
                                        > >> The attractiveness of this model to me is the fact that conditions have
                                        > >> to be just right for the production of the kind of composite wave that I
                                        > >> have described. Since vectorial addition of fields is involved, the
                                        > >> directions of the separate fields have to be somewhat alligned. Further,
                                        > >> the characteristics of the ground wave will be strongly dependent on the
                                        > >> frequency of the low frequency RF source, the dielectric constant of the
                                        > >> ground and the electrical conductivity of the ground (both of which also
                                        > >> depend on the frequency of the low frequency RF source) so weather
                                        > >> conditions will affect how well the two types of waves couple. Finally, if
                                        > >> the effective RF frequency of the composite wave is sufficiently high for
                                        > >> microwave hearing to be excited, the pulsing nature of the base station (or
                                        > >> other pulsed source) will determine the audio characteristics of the
                                        > >> perceived sound. If the individual sources are strong enough, this argument
                                        > >> can apply to many different source types (as individual source components).
                                        > >> The low frequency components could be broadcast radio stations, ELF
                                        > >> navigation beacons such as Loran, etc. The high RF frequency pulsed sources
                                        > >> could be cellular base stations, pulsed radars, etc. as long as the carrier
                                        > >> wave frequency is 200 MHz or higher (but probably not much higher than 3
                                        > >> GHz). The resulting phenomenon would be microwave hearing that exhibits the
                                        > >> characteristics of pulsation of the high RF frequency source. Further, the
                                        > >> "pitch" of the perceived sounds would be commensurate with the pulsing
                                        > >> frequecy, as shown by Allan Frey's early experiments on microwave hearing.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> This kind of argument is anathema to most scientists and engineers,
                                        > >> because it is conventional practice to average over a cycle of a wave.
                                        > >> Otherwise, the math in evaluating the Poynting vector (magnitude and
                                        > >> direction of energy flow) is just awful. If you assume that only biological
                                        > >> heating is a possible health hazard of RF waves, then averaging is essential
                                        > >> and is part of the FCC protocol for measurements of compliance with FCC
                                        > >> guidelines. On the other hand, measurements with picosecond lasers have
                                        > >> shown that biochemical processes can respond to nearly instantaneous changes
                                        > >> in stimuli - especially electromagnetic stimuli.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> I invite you all to critique my arguments. I won't be offended if you
                                        > >> disagree with me.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> Regards, Bill
                                        > >> ----------------------------------------------------
                                        > >> |Bill P. Curry, PhD EMSciTek Consulting Co.|
                                        > >> |(630 858-9377 Fax (630) 858-9159 |
                                        > >> | Physics is fun! |
                                        > >> |__________________________________________________|
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Posting Guidelines:
                                        > >
                                        > > 1. No personal attacks. But reasoned criticism of
                                        > > ideas and theories is welcome.
                                        > > 2. No gratuitous profanity.
                                        > > 3. No "kook" posts.
                                        > > 4. Limit posts to those that are necessary and have substantive content. In
                                        > > general, no more than three per person per day.
                                        > > 5. Please sign all posts with your location (city, state, country).
                                        > >
                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > >
                                        > >
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                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > Dear Maggie,
                                        > You certainly have posed a litany of thought provoking questions. I'll
                                        > try to answer them, but I don't claim to have all the answers. I have no
                                        > objections to your giving my responses to other people, but please recognize
                                        > that my responses are tentative and may not always be reliable.
                                        > Your first question concerns whether having clay soil that might contain
                                        > magnetite and may have been significantly dried out on account of the
                                        > lowering of the water table. Ultimately you need to have the dielectric
                                        > constant and the electrical conductivity of the soil as it is now. Since
                                        > you don't have that information you could probably get those parameters for
                                        > dry clay and test the effect of the moisture content by arbitrarily
                                        > increasing the electrical conductivity several orders of magnitude to
                                        > simulate the conditions that you may have had before the lowering of the
                                        > water table. Without having done any calculations on your specific
                                        > situation, I expect that the ground wave would be weaker over dry soil than
                                        > over wet soil.
                                        > In my Salzburg paper, I calculated the electric field strength for
                                        > radiation at several distances from WGY in Schenectady, New York. This is a
                                        > 50,000 watt AM broadcast station at 810 kHz frequency (or 370 m wavelength).
                                        > The field strength calculation included both the sky wave and the ground
                                        > wave. I "calibrated" the calculation by comparing my results at 1 km from
                                        > the radio station with the values the FCC have stated on their web site. My
                                        > calculation gave 20 V/m field strength, and the FCC stated value is 19.15,
                                        > indicating my calculation is fairly good - in spite of some of the
                                        > assumptions I made to be able to reduce the calculation to tractability. I
                                        > then calculated the field for the region between 6 and 6.5 km from the
                                        > broadcast station, because people live on a 180 ft. high ridge in that
                                        > region and because there is a cell tower with antennas from two different
                                        > providers on it residences of people located from 150 m to 500 m away from
                                        > the tower and about 6 km from WGY. In this region, the WGY field under dry
                                        > conditions was about 2 V/m. Under wet conditions, it doubled, because the
                                        > reflectivity of the wet ground is much higher than for dry earth on account
                                        > of the conductivity enhancement of wet earth.
                                        > Using parameters I obtained for two sets of cellular base station
                                        > antennas on a tower 150 m from the people on the ridge and about 6 km from
                                        > WGY, I estimated the field from the cell tower for one station without any
                                        > enhancement by the WGY ground wave to be 1.34 microwatts per square
                                        > centimeter. The other base station antennas gave a contribution of very
                                        > similar magnitude 1.4 microwatts per square centimeter. Thus, without any
                                        > enhancement by the ground wave of WGY, the two cell tower providers
                                        > contributed a total radiation density at 150 m distance from the tower of
                                        > 2.74 microwatts per square centimeter. When account was taken of the WGY
                                        > ground wave, these radiation densities were enhanced by a factor of about 6
                                        > for dry conditions and about 9 for wet conditions. Thus the total radiation
                                        > density of the composite waves varied from 16.4 microwatts per square
                                        > centimeter for dry conditions to 24.7 microwatts per square centimeter for
                                        > very wet ground. My only evidence that this result is anywhere near
                                        > reasonable is the fact that measurements made with a broadband RF meter
                                        > (after corrections for calibration errors made by a third party) was about
                                        > 17 microwatts per square centimeter.
                                        > I didn't have such ggod results at a more distant location 500 m from
                                        > the tower. There, my calculation for the radiation density due to the two
                                        > sets of base station antennas was 0.247 microwatt per square centimeter
                                        > without the WGY ground wave. Including the effect of the WGY ground wave
                                        > increased the radiation density to 1.48 microwatts per square centimeter for
                                        > dry conditions to 2.22 microwatts per square centimeter. The measurement at
                                        > this location was about 6 microwatts per square centimeter. I have spent so
                                        > much time discussing the possible enhancement of the cell tower radiation
                                        > density by the WGY ground wave to illustrate how I think the pulsed
                                        > microwave radiation emitted by cell tower might be enhanced by a much lower
                                        > frequency source sufficiently to lead to microwave hearing. If so, the
                                        > characteristics of the perceived sound would depend on the waveform of the
                                        > cell tower sources.
                                        > Your second question concerned whether waterways would disrupt the
                                        > ground waves. Generally, no. Salt water certainly enhances ground waves,
                                        > because it increases the conductivity more than that of pure water. Of
                                        > course, rivers usually have many kinds of dissolved minerals, so I would
                                        > expect the ground wave to be enhanced. Since ground waves follow the
                                        > surface of the terrain, you might find that river valleys would have a
                                        > channeling effect that would make the ground wave strength vary with
                                        > position. However, in the situation I described it would take a very deep
                                        > valley to have any channeling effect, because the wavelength of the WGY
                                        > radiation was 370 m. Incidentally, one notable characteristic of ground
                                        > waves is that they die out more slowly with distance from the source than do
                                        > sky waves, which follow the inverse square distance law.
                                        > You asked about whether the alignment of the fields from various
                                        > installations had been plotted or could be plotted. Certainly, the
                                        > characteristics of the fields radiated by the antennas of any given source
                                        > (including the polarization direction) can be characterized and plotted
                                        > versus position. The problem is to locate all the RF sources in any given
                                        > region and catalogue their characteristics. A friend of mine, Libby Kelley,
                                        > once had a grant to map and characterize the RF sources in Marin County,
                                        > California to try to see whether these sources correlated with the very high
                                        > rates of breast cancer in the county - the highest in the US and perhaps in
                                        > the world. I don't know whether she has continued this wark since she has
                                        > left California and moved to Arizona. It is very difficult to get all the
                                        > information that one needs in this kind of project, especially when many of
                                        > the sources have military origins.
                                        > You also asked whether facial heat and skin tenderness could be
                                        > associated with microwave heating or microwave hearing. Studies over a
                                        > considerable number of years by Drs. Reba Goodman and Martin Blank at
                                        > Columbia University in New York City have indicated that RF radiation at
                                        > levels far below those that cause biological heating induce the emission of
                                        > heat shock proteins. This has been named the "stress response," because
                                        > cells stressed by biological heating, by chemical toxins, and by absorption
                                        > of RF radiation emit these proteins in an effort to protect themselves.
                                        > This action is protective, because these proteins have the ability to refold
                                        > other damaged protein molecules. This is one of the body's repair
                                        > mechanisms. Sometimes, the body's immune system reacts to these stress
                                        > proteins as foreign proteins and an allergic reaction occurs. People I know
                                        > who are electrosensitive often have rashes and chemical sensitvity, also.
                                        > Once, I saw an elderly man (in the scientific meeting I attended in
                                        > Salzburg, Austria) pull up his trouser legs. His own legs were as red as a
                                        > boiled lobster, and he was complaining that his government was not
                                        > protecting him from adverse effects of RF radiation. He and his wife lived
                                        > in an apartment building across the street from a commercial building on
                                        > which cellular base station antennas had recently been installed. I suspect
                                        > that he was experiencing the stress response that I described above.
                                        > However, it must be added that he had a steel plate in at least one leg.
                                        > (Whether both legs, I don't know.) Such a plate would certainly enhance the
                                        > fields near the edges of the plate.
                                        > You asked whether acoustic noise could be part of the composite
                                        > electromagnetic effects. I don't thinks so for this reason: acoustic waves
                                        > are longitudinal waves - i.e., the wave crests and nulls occur in the same
                                        > direction as the wave propagation. Electromagnetic waves, instead, are
                                        > transverse waves. Their crests and nulls occur perpendicular to the wave
                                        > propagation direction many wavelengths from the wave source. The
                                        > piezoelectric field is a transduction mechanism by which electric fields can
                                        > produce acoustic disturbances or mechanical pressure can produce electric
                                        > fields, but neither can occur without a transducer being present. In this
                                        > case, the transducer is a crystal with piezoelectric properties. (Such
                                        > crystals used to be one means for production of a weak electric current when
                                        > a needle tracked a groove in a phonograph record. The weak current was
                                        > amplified and applied to a loudspeaker, and we heard sound.)
                                        > ----------------------------------------------------
                                        > |Bill P. Curry, PhD EMSciTek Consulting Co.|
                                        > |(630 858-9377 Fax (630) 858-9159 |
                                        > | Physics is fun! |
                                        > |__________________________________________________|
                                      • Anne
                                        Christine, My power company has been cooperative in trying to help me locate and find the source of the hum. Back early on when I was having a problem with it
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jun 7, 2005
                                          Christine,

                                          My power company has been cooperative in trying to help me locate and find
                                          the source of the hum. Back early on when I was having a problem with it
                                          they came out and tried to locate what was causing me the problem, but I
                                          think they were not here on occasions when it was bad. I do have intervals
                                          without it. Also, I think they are now becoming aware of some of the newer
                                          problems involving power lines and rf.

                                          Since you are new to the group, I do not know if you have read the earlier
                                          post on here. If you did you might have seen where I posted about my power
                                          company coming out early this spring and moving my transformer away from my
                                          house and doing some other things to try to keep the rf from coming through
                                          into my home. I have only had one bout with the hum since that time,
                                          which was in late May when the KP Index was very high and caused the
                                          auroras. I do not know if it had anything to do with the hum at all, but I
                                          will be on alert if it gets that high again, to notice what happens. I
                                          have also done away with my satellite dish for TV. I also do not use a cell
                                          phone. I too, live in a rural area. My power company is a rural electric
                                          coop. They have been nice to work with and I do hope yours will try to help
                                          you with the problem.

                                          Keep up posted on how it goes.

                                          Anne
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "elfalotanoise" <elfalotanoise@...>
                                          To: <humforum@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 12:28 AM
                                          Subject: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not


                                          > Jim, Bill, Everyone!
                                          >
                                          > Jim, thank you for this encouragement and the fox & the hen house
                                          > analogy-how true! Bill, your first message to me did not fall on
                                          > deaf ears, I made suggestions/enquiries to the electric co rep based
                                          > on the info I had gleamed from you but they were dismissed, thank you
                                          > so much for your time/responses in informing me.
                                          >
                                          > Incidently, I had mentioned the Stetzer filter when the elec co rep
                                          > was here. And the response was that she didn't know for sure but
                                          > thought that it was a case of someone profiting/taking advantage of
                                          > someone else's misfortune. She states that some people did report
                                          > that the filter helped but that it's probably a PLACEBO effect. As
                                          > if anyone with hum perception could be pacified by a placebo effect!
                                          > This was one of her first comments to me on that visit and, believe
                                          > me, I saw the emporer without her clothes on!
                                          >
                                          > Everyone, and this means YOU, thank you for this online didactic
                                          > which is nearly my sole means of support in terms of understanding
                                          > this dilema. I am appreciative of all of your input, but, uncertain
                                          > of potential forum ettiquette, I have not always responded to each
                                          > you so as not to overload the site with surplaflous (I used to know
                                          > how to spell this word!?) comments. Not to mention family jealousy
                                          > over my relatively brief time on the computer which limits me. Please
                                          > consider this your personal 'thank you' for your past, present &
                                          > future insights.
                                          >
                                          > Sincerely, Christine
                                          >
                                          > --- In humforum@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Egger" <aeroqst@m...> wrote:
                                          > > Christine,
                                          > >
                                          > > I would follow Bill Curry's suggestions on getting your emf checked
                                          > out
                                          > > through independent sources. They may be able to help you get some
                                          > relief.
                                          > >
                                          > > I am hearing the hum at the usual lower level as I write this.
                                          > >
                                          > > Sincerely
                                          > > Jim Egger
                                          > > Palmer, Alaska
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > From: "elfalotanoise" <elfalotanoise@y...>
                                          > > To: <humforum@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 4:22 AM
                                          > > Subject: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >> R.M. wrote:
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >>> "he same questions keep coming up:
                                          > > >> if you think you are being 'bombarded' with 'waves'
                                          > or 'signals',
                                          > > > surely the
                                          > > >> first thing to do is find out what can block that incoming
                                          > energy,
                                          > > > block it,
                                          > > >> and then see if you still hear something. If a meter that
                                          > > > measures whatever
                                          > > >> you feel is causing your noise registers 'nil', then surely in a
                                          > > > screened
                                          > > >> room or space, if you still hear a noise, the noise can't be
                                          > from
                                          > > > what you
                                          > > >> thought....yes?"
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > R.M./anyone, please,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > What specific type of meter/s shall I use? Pleae be specific in
                                          > what
                                          > > > they are called and what they do. How to get them?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I believe my hum may be related to electric power lines as I hear
                                          > the
                                          > > > seemingly same sound when I am in and sometimes out of my car near
                                          > > > the poles with transformers - I also notice the sound under
                                          > overhead
                                          > > > powerlines. Yet the new gentleman states the sound he heard also
                                          > > > sounded similar to " a 60 cycle sound. Anyway, I need to rule out
                                          > > > electricty and am not convinced the electric co has done so.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > My local electric co. states my house "checks out fine" what does
                                          > > > this mean? I have been trying to get answers re: the type of tests
                                          > > > they performed, results etc. But have not had a response.
                                          > > > Incidently, I was told they would call me before they came out,
                                          > yet
                                          > > > they did not, and my husband happened to encounter the
                                          > representative
                                          > > > from the electric co when he got home early from picking up the
                                          > > > children d/t 1/2 day at school, I was at work.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > By the way, I was told by another electric co rep that stray
                                          > voltage
                                          > > > doen't affect humans. This seemed to me a ridiculous statement.
                                          > > > Does she really not understand that prolonged exposure to stray
                                          > > > voltage causes harmful side-effects? I find this hard to believe.
                                          > > > Are these representatives trained to mislead the public? I also
                                          > find
                                          > > > this hard to believe. What do you all think? Stray voltage is one
                                          > > > concern of my although it does not seem very feasible given the
                                          > fact
                                          > > > that the agriculural land extends for (I'll have to measure a more
                                          > > > exact distance) approx 3/4 mi directly behind our property and
                                          > then
                                          > > > becomes a dairy operation. The distance to me seems too great.
                                          > > > However, I am not an expert, yet the expert states that "humans
                                          > > > aren't affected by stray voltage." She goes further to
                                          > state, "If a
                                          > > > cow in a field of stray voltage touches metal then it will be
                                          > > > affected, but humans are not." !!! I don't feel as though people
                                          > with
                                          > > > this attitude will be able to help me.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Again, who may I contact and what type of instrumentation
                                          > (specifics
                                          > > > please) do I need?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Frustrated,
                                          > > > Christine, Hudson, WI
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >>
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                                          > > > 4. Limit posts to those that are necessary and have substantive
                                          > content.
                                          > > > In general, no more than three per person per day.
                                          > > > 5. Please sign all posts with your location (city, state,
                                          > country).
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                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Posting Guidelines:
                                          >
                                          > 1. No personal attacks. But reasoned criticism of
                                          > ideas and theories is welcome.
                                          > 2. No gratuitous profanity.
                                          > 3. No "kook" posts.
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                                        • elfalotanoise
                                          Anne, Thank you for this message, I will check previous posts. I am so relieved to hear that you found relief from your hum. I am still waiting for a response
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jun 7, 2005
                                            Anne,
                                            Thank you for this message, I will check previous posts. I am so
                                            relieved to hear that you found relief from your hum. I am still
                                            waiting for a response from the electric co re: tests performed and
                                            results when they were out here last. It has been over a week since
                                            they were here. I hope they intend to get back to me.
                                            Christine, Hudson, WI

                                            --- In humforum@yahoogroups.com, "Anne" <redhorse@t...> wrote:
                                            > Christine,
                                            >
                                            > My power company has been cooperative in trying to help me locate
                                            and find
                                            > the source of the hum. Back early on when I was having a problem
                                            with it
                                            > they came out and tried to locate what was causing me the problem,
                                            but I
                                            > think they were not here on occasions when it was bad. I do have
                                            intervals
                                            > without it. Also, I think they are now becoming aware of some of
                                            the newer
                                            > problems involving power lines and rf.
                                            >
                                            > Since you are new to the group, I do not know if you have read the
                                            earlier
                                            > post on here. If you did you might have seen where I posted about
                                            my power
                                            > company coming out early this spring and moving my transformer
                                            away from my
                                            > house and doing some other things to try to keep the rf from coming
                                            through
                                            > into my home. I have only had one bout with the hum since that
                                            time,
                                            > which was in late May when the KP Index was very high and caused the
                                            > auroras. I do not know if it had anything to do with the hum at
                                            all, but I
                                            > will be on alert if it gets that high again, to notice what
                                            happens. I
                                            > have also done away with my satellite dish for TV. I also do not
                                            use a cell
                                            > phone. I too, live in a rural area. My power company is a rural
                                            electric
                                            > coop. They have been nice to work with and I do hope yours will
                                            try to help
                                            > you with the problem.
                                            >
                                            > Keep up posted on how it goes.
                                            >
                                            > Anne
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: "elfalotanoise" <elfalotanoise@y...>
                                            > To: <humforum@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 12:28 AM
                                            > Subject: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > Jim, Bill, Everyone!
                                            > >
                                            > > Jim, thank you for this encouragement and the fox & the hen house
                                            > > analogy-how true! Bill, your first message to me did not fall on
                                            > > deaf ears, I made suggestions/enquiries to the electric co rep
                                            based
                                            > > on the info I had gleamed from you but they were dismissed, thank
                                            you
                                            > > so much for your time/responses in informing me.
                                            > >
                                            > > Incidently, I had mentioned the Stetzer filter when the elec co
                                            rep
                                            > > was here. And the response was that she didn't know for sure but
                                            > > thought that it was a case of someone profiting/taking advantage
                                            of
                                            > > someone else's misfortune. She states that some people did report
                                            > > that the filter helped but that it's probably a PLACEBO effect.
                                            As
                                            > > if anyone with hum perception could be pacified by a placebo
                                            effect!
                                            > > This was one of her first comments to me on that visit and,
                                            believe
                                            > > me, I saw the emporer without her clothes on!
                                            > >
                                            > > Everyone, and this means YOU, thank you for this online didactic
                                            > > which is nearly my sole means of support in terms of understanding
                                            > > this dilema. I am appreciative of all of your input, but,
                                            uncertain
                                            > > of potential forum ettiquette, I have not always responded to each
                                            > > you so as not to overload the site with surplaflous (I used to
                                            know
                                            > > how to spell this word!?) comments. Not to mention family jealousy
                                            > > over my relatively brief time on the computer which limits me.
                                            Please
                                            > > consider this your personal 'thank you' for your past, present &
                                            > > future insights.
                                            > >
                                            > > Sincerely, Christine
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In humforum@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Egger" <aeroqst@m...> wrote:
                                            > > > Christine,
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I would follow Bill Curry's suggestions on getting your emf
                                            checked
                                            > > out
                                            > > > through independent sources. They may be able to help you get
                                            some
                                            > > relief.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I am hearing the hum at the usual lower level as I write this.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Sincerely
                                            > > > Jim Egger
                                            > > > Palmer, Alaska
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > > From: "elfalotanoise" <elfalotanoise@y...>
                                            > > > To: <humforum@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 4:22 AM
                                            > > > Subject: HUM_FORUM: Re: man made or not
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >>
                                            > > > >> R.M. wrote:
                                            > > > >>
                                            > > > >>> "he same questions keep coming up:
                                            > > > >> if you think you are being 'bombarded' with 'waves'
                                            > > or 'signals',
                                            > > > > surely the
                                            > > > >> first thing to do is find out what can block that incoming
                                            > > energy,
                                            > > > > block it,
                                            > > > >> and then see if you still hear something. If a meter that
                                            > > > > measures whatever
                                            > > > >> you feel is causing your noise registers 'nil', then surely
                                            in a
                                            > > > > screened
                                            > > > >> room or space, if you still hear a noise, the noise can't be
                                            > > from
                                            > > > > what you
                                            > > > >> thought....yes?"
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > R.M./anyone, please,
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > What specific type of meter/s shall I use? Pleae be specific
                                            in
                                            > > what
                                            > > > > they are called and what they do. How to get them?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I believe my hum may be related to electric power lines as I
                                            hear
                                            > > the
                                            > > > > seemingly same sound when I am in and sometimes out of my car
                                            near
                                            > > > > the poles with transformers - I also notice the sound under
                                            > > overhead
                                            > > > > powerlines. Yet the new gentleman states the sound he heard
                                            also
                                            > > > > sounded similar to " a 60 cycle sound. Anyway, I need to
                                            rule out
                                            > > > > electricty and am not convinced the electric co has done so.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > My local electric co. states my house "checks out fine" what
                                            does
                                            > > > > this mean? I have been trying to get answers re: the type of
                                            tests
                                            > > > > they performed, results etc. But have not had a response.
                                            > > > > Incidently, I was told they would call me before they came
                                            out,
                                            > > yet
                                            > > > > they did not, and my husband happened to encounter the
                                            > > representative
                                            > > > > from the electric co when he got home early from picking up
                                            the
                                            > > > > children d/t 1/2 day at school, I was at work.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > By the way, I was told by another electric co rep that stray
                                            > > voltage
                                            > > > > doen't affect humans. This seemed to me a ridiculous
                                            statement.
                                            > > > > Does she really not understand that prolonged exposure to
                                            stray
                                            > > > > voltage causes harmful side-effects? I find this hard to
                                            believe.
                                            > > > > Are these representatives trained to mislead the public? I
                                            also
                                            > > find
                                            > > > > this hard to believe. What do you all think? Stray voltage is
                                            one
                                            > > > > concern of my although it does not seem very feasible given
                                            the
                                            > > fact
                                            > > > > that the agriculural land extends for (I'll have to measure a
                                            more
                                            > > > > exact distance) approx 3/4 mi directly behind our property and
                                            > > then
                                            > > > > becomes a dairy operation. The distance to me seems too
                                            great.
                                            > > > > However, I am not an expert, yet the expert states
                                            that "humans
                                            > > > > aren't affected by stray voltage." She goes further to
                                            > > state, "If a
                                            > > > > cow in a field of stray voltage touches metal then it will be
                                            > > > > affected, but humans are not." !!! I don't feel as though
                                            people
                                            > > with
                                            > > > > this attitude will be able to help me.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Again, who may I contact and what type of instrumentation
                                            > > (specifics
                                            > > > > please) do I need?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Frustrated,
                                            > > > > Christine, Hudson, WI
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >>
                                            > > ==================================================================
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Posting Guidelines:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > 1. No personal attacks. But reasoned criticism of
                                            > > > > ideas and theories is welcome.
                                            > > > > 2. No gratuitous profanity.
                                            > > > > 3. No "kook" posts.
                                            > > > > 4. Limit posts to those that are necessary and have
                                            substantive
                                            > > content.
                                            > > > > In general, no more than three per person per day.
                                            > > > > 5. Please sign all posts with your location (city, state,
                                            > > country).
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Posting Guidelines:
                                            > >
                                            > > 1. No personal attacks. But reasoned criticism of
                                            > > ideas and theories is welcome.
                                            > > 2. No gratuitous profanity.
                                            > > 3. No "kook" posts.
                                            > > 4. Limit posts to those that are necessary and have substantive
                                            content.
                                            > In general, no more than three per person per day.
                                            > > 5. Please sign all posts with your location (city, state,
                                            country).
                                            > >
                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                          • Tobypaws2002@aol.com
                                            In a message dated 04/06/2005 00:05:55 GMT Daylight Time, ... Bill: Does the vectorial addition imply that the Hum should only be heard at certain
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jun 8, 2005
                                              In a message dated 04/06/2005 00:05:55 GMT Daylight Time, profdeming@... writes:
                                              >     The attractiveness of this model to me is the fact that conditions have
                                              > to be just right for the production of the kind of composite wave that I
                                              > have described.  Since vectorial addition of fields is involved, the
                                              > directions of the separate fields have to be somewhat alligned.
                                              >

                                              Bill:  Does the "vectorial addition" imply that the Hum should only
                                              be heard at certain locations where the fields strengthen each other?

                                              --David Deming
                                              Norman, Oklahoma
                                              ========================================
                                              Something like Constructive Interference, perhaps?
                                              R.M.    Southampton, England.
                                              ===========================================
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