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Re: HUM_FORUM: Re: On Rational Thought

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  • ewraven1@sympatico.ca
    To: humforum@yahoogroups.com From: Tom Becker Date sent: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:43:48 -0400 Subject: Re: HUM_FORUM: Re: On Rational
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 29, 2008
      To: humforum@yahoogroups.com
      From: Tom Becker <gtbecker@...>
      Date sent: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:43:48 -0400
      Subject: Re: HUM_FORUM: Re: On Rational Thought
      Send reply to: humforum@yahoogroups.com

      > > ... there are plenty of physical principles yet to be discovered.
      >
      >No question. That's not my problem, Eleanor.
      >
      >My problem is with those who would focus a video camera on two lights in
      >the dark distance and narrate "/They/ change day to night with a train
      >whistle" and, sure enough, in a few moments a train whistle - with the
      >normal sequence of blasts that are those of a crossing approach warning
      >- is heard. Day does not follow, however. There are no undiscovered
      >physics there, I think. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2XtR2yt8Nw
      >(~1:18 into the clip).
      >
      >Similarly, a video of a horizontally-slatted garage door is shown with
      >lots of moire' on the slats, which move. The poster suggests that the
      >pattern and movement are due to HAARP, not due to the color sensor
      >matrix of a CCD camera and her hand movement. I wonder if she thinks
      >herringboned patterns on a TV weatherman's necktie or jacket is also due
      >to HAARP. No missing science here.
      >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la607v7Z1-g
      >
      >Some folks are simply /out there/. This woman sees a rainbow in her
      >lawn sprinkler on a sunny day and thinks HAARP!
      >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P5klq85KL0&feature=related Please.
      >
      >This is not new science we have yet to learn.

      All I'm saying is, since the source of the Hum isn't
      yet known, don't rule out physics of a level either
      not yet discovered, or, discovered but not yet
      released to the public.

      Eleanor White
    • kallio_mn
      ... Science, for the most part does not operate this way. Independent researchers, who are usually on staff at academic institutions pursue areas of interest
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 1, 2008
        >
        > All I'm saying is, since the source of the Hum isn't
        > yet known, don't rule out physics of a level either
        > not yet discovered, or, discovered but not yet
        > released to the public.
        >
        > Eleanor White
        >

        Science, for the most part does not operate this way. Independent
        researchers, who are usually on staff at academic institutions pursue
        areas of interest to them. These are typically the next level of the
        problems needed to be solved. They seek funding from the government
        to underwrite the research. Funding comes from the National Science
        Foundation (NSF), the National Institutes of Health (NIH),Department
        of Energy (DoE), NASA, or if of use to the military/Department of
        Defense, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).

        Unclassified research findings are published after a lengthy peer
        review process and generally available to the public through academic
        journals. Problem is, these publications are difficult to read, even
        for those well schooled in the topic and almost impossible to read for
        everyone else.

        The largest physics project today is the Large Hadron Collider (LHC)
        being done at CERN in France/Switzerland. This is not only just Big
        Science, but Huge Science. It takes an enormous amount of money to
        setup the equipment and a large staff to run the project. Not easy to
        hide or be covert.

        There is considerable amount of private research done in the US, but
        none of it at a very large scale. The largest private research
        programs are targeted at finding something that can be patented and
        then sold to the public. The Pharmaceutical industry is the largest
        player here, and financial returns drive the process.

        Some research is contracted through the CIA, the NSA, or DoD and is
        classified. These programs are usually small however.

        The major source of Big Science in the US is the work being done at
        the National Labs(Sandia, Argonne, Los Alamos, Idaho, Lawrence
        Berkeley, Oak Ridge, Brookhaven, etc).

        Problem in all of these scenarios is that it takes highly trained
        people to make this happen. Money has to come from somewhere to pay
        them and keep them. That money comes either from product sales (such
        as drugs or microprocessors) or from tax dollars. In an open society,
        there is competition for these talents. In an open society, people
        are free to change jobs and move around. Not much room for the secret
        laboratories of Dr. No.

        As for the level of physics not yet disovered, the search for the
        Theory of Everything is quite active. That is the great
        reward/disappointment waiting on the outcome of search for the Higg's
        Boson at CERN using the LHC.

        When we make the argument that much is unknown, (which anyone in
        Science will absolutely agree with) we have to be careful that we do
        not take this to imply that the unknown will negate the known.

        The problem with any level of physics, no matter how deep down it
        goes, it does have to be able to provide an explanation for everything
        above it. Universal constants will not suddenly change once we find
        something new. Relational laws will not become altered. They will
        only be know more precisely, and with a deeper level of understanding.
        And ultimately, everything that can be known, will be revealed
        through the discipline we call Science.

        Kallio
        Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
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