Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [humanistchurch] Hope it's OK to vent here!

Expand Messages
  • CAKeaton
    Sorry, but I really need to vent. I stupidly made an attempt to fit in at NTCoF and have gotten a good firm kick in the teeth for my efforts. What happened was
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
      Sorry, but I really need to vent. I stupidly made an attempt to fit in at NTCoF and have gotten a good firm kick in the teeth for my efforts. What happened was that Ethel and John have been trying to talk me into having the NTCoF's summer solstice party for about two weeks now. At first I didn't want to its a big party and I don't know many of them. I tend to be somewhat reclusive. But I've hosted a few game nights and they have been a lot of fun so I said OK. Jim and Ethel talked to Mike about it and Ethel told me Friday night that Mike liked the idea. I had planned to talk to him to get the party into the newsletter handout thing but didn't get around to it. I did print out some invitations and took them to the services today to hand them out. After the service I went up to Mike to talk to him about listing it in the Web site. The asshole gave me a hard time with it. First he complained that I hadn't been to the services in months (not a good techniques for making someone feel welcome) and them he accused me of trying to get "publicity"! I told him to forget it and left. I am seriously thinking about just giving my keys to Ethel and going to a hotel for the night. I am not a party person and if this is the attitude I'm going to get from these people then I really don't want to be at my own party. 
       
      Being in a church service again brought up all kinds of painful memories for me to the point that I am just upset beyond all reason. Tim was doing another one of his "blast a religion of the month sermons" and he picked Calvinist denominations as his target de jour. Sitting there listening to all the bullshit reminded me of when I was a kid. I used to enjoy church - not the sermons but the time I spent with my grandfather. We would always sit together in the back and I would lean against him and close my eyes with his arm around me. He always had a particular smell that I loved that was a combination of his after shave and his suits. I miss him. When he died, I was 12 years old and there were several months when his dementia was so bad that he didn't know who was in his room. It was a very difficult time for my mother and I. We lived with him because mother didn't have a job. The medical insurance ran out leaving a massive debt. Then I was (wrongly) accused of breaking a $20,000 stained glass window at the church. They threw mother and I out. So we had no emotional support either while he died. Religious leaders are fucking geniuses aren't they?
       
      I lost my faith in both justice and organized religion then and never got either one back. Although I have discovered that if you live long enough the truth will eventually come out. About 12 years ago, some church women crashed the get together at the house following my mother's funeral. Two of them planned to try to trap me into confessing about the window. They kept talking about the statute of limitations was past and that no one cared anymore. I kept denying it because I CARED and I don't think that it will EVER be OVER with ME. What happened next was almost funny. They kept insisting with a kind tone of voice that it was of no "real" importance and wouldn't it feel better if I repented and got it off my chest?" Their message got through to the woman who actually did it (accidentally) who confessed infront of every one at the house. She said that she blamed me because she knew that my grandfather was wealthy (she knew nothing of the bills!) And that she would never be able to pay for it. So the truth did out -- just not in time for my mother to know. I can never be sure if my grand papa understood the accusation or not.
       
      Tim said something in his sermon that I've heard before and may have even said myself. He said, "There is nothing wrong with a church, the problem is with superstition." I have come to the conclusion that this is wrong. There is very little wrong with superstition (with some obvious qualifications) but a lot wrong with churches. Churches exist for two purposes only. One is socialization and the other is power. Socializing is fine but doesn't require a church. A social club will work just as well. The other reason is controll/power. Mikes petty bullshit today was a badly concealed poorly executed power play that happened to catch me while I was emotionally unsteady. Fuck him.
       
      My dilemma is: do I want to create a new power structure in the "humanist church" No way!
      One of the things I am going to have to insist upon is that whatever we end up doing -- there must be a structure that actively prevents any person from exercising power plays. Just having a democratic process is NOT enough. There must a stated principal of AVOIDING as much organized power as possible! I'm going to try to come up with a way to put this into writing along with the meeting format that's in progress.
       
      By the way, I was unable to open your e-mail. MSN8 (which I hate because it crashes almost daily,) says it's dangerous. Could you try a different format (simple text files seem to work best) and try again? Unless of course you really do have a virus! I hope you don't.
       
      Thanks in advance for letting me vent. I really had to get this off my chest! I've been crying all afternoon.
       
      Cynthia
    • CAKeaton
      It s probably best that Mike is on the list. I didn t know that he was and had forgotten that this is a public forum. I had planned to send him a separate
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003

        It's probably best that Mike is on the list. I didn't know that he was and had forgotten that this is a public forum. I had planned to send him a separate e-mail telling him how I felt but I wanted to calm down before I wrote it. It's simpler this way.  Mike was very rude to me at the service - I have called him an asshole. We're even. Tit for tat. When he publicly apologizes for his rudeness at NTCoF - I will send an e-mail to this group apologizing for my choice of words.

        I gave up trying to change NTCoF a while ago. I was only trying to fit in.
         
        I honor my word and my invitations. The party is still on and only NTCoF is invited as per my original intentions.

        One of your questions was very interesting. What would I do if someone did something very wrong? Well let's see. I once stopped a rape in progress. I once took my cousin to court to get custody of her child because she was letting the 14 year old girl quit school and live in a sexual relationship with an 18 year old boy. I've been fortunate enough to lead a sheltered life and those have been the only real wrongs that I have personally encountered. I think the last thing I would do would be to get on the internet and bellyache about it. Real wrongs require real actions. Venting only works when the problem is something like rudeness. And it has worked. I feel fine.

        Cynthia
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: sw
        Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:58 PM
        Subject: Re: [humanistchurch] Re: Hope it's OK to vent here!

        I didn't write this (see below) just because David pointed out that Mike is on the e-list... I knew that already.
         
        The anti-theistic cause is greater than all of us. Sure the NTCoF has their own way of doing things --let them do it! Don't stick your neck out for a church you don't agree with and there'll be no problems.
         
        Like I said, I like to bug them on the Talk list, and I would hang-out at the social gathering just to meet other atheists if it weren't so far away, but I know better than try to get involved in the "meritocracy". It really conflicts with my personality to suck-up in such a way that I would always have to worry if Fathers Tim and Mike approved. But that's the way they do it, they have followers and a monthly audience, so there ya have it. I wouldn't want anyone to feel unwelcome at our deal, so let's be careful with the strong condemnations.
         
        Shannon
         


        Shannon <utopiandreamer63@...> wrote:
        I don't think we ought to be alienating anyone at the NTCoF, least of
        all the leaders. Hell, none of us are perfect. If one calls someone
        an "asshole" and says "fuck him!" in public, one ought to explain
        exactly why.

        Cynthia, you just can't say that about someone when all they did was
        point out that you haven't attended and/or are seeking publicity.
        What do you say about people who really do wrong?

        I think you are upset about other things and are venting in a
        particular direction. I could be wrong. What exactly did Mike say or
        do that warranted such vitriol?

        Shannon





        --- In humanistchurch@yahoogroups.com, David Wallace Croft
        <david.croft@v...> wrote:
        > Shannon,
        >
        >
        > sw wrote:
        > > When I first decided to check-out atheist groups, I thought I'd
        really
        > > find alot of folks like me, some friends to hang out with --
        WRONG! Live
        > > and learn. Now, I just don't expect much from such things, so I
        don't
        > > get upset.
        >
        >
        > I went through the same experience with Gorski.  I made certain
        > assumptions about his character based upon the fact that he was a
        leader
        > of a so-called freethought church.  When those assumptions proved
        to be
        > false, I was somewhat shocked.
        >
        >
        > --
        > David Wallace Croft
        > http://alumni.caltech.edu/~croft/
        > (972) 883-2205 office
        > (214) 731-9284 home



        --
        Humanist Church
        http://www.humanistchurch.org/
        To subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list, please send a blank e-mail message to humanistchurch-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or
        humanistchurch-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com.
        All messages are publicly archived at http://egroups.com/group/humanistchurch/.


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


        Do you Yahoo!?
        The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

        --
        Humanist Church
        http://www.humanistchurch.org/
        To subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list, please send a blank e-mail message to humanistchurch-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or
        humanistchurch-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com.
        All messages are publicly archived at http://egroups.com/group/humanistchurch/.


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • sw
        It s my party and I ll cry if I want to, cry if I want to... Cynthia, you are letting things get to you! Don t set yourself up to where you can be so
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
          "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to..."
           
          Cynthia, you are letting things get to you! Don't set yourself up to where you can be so disappointed.
           
          Shannon

          CAKeaton <CynthiaKeaton@...> wrote:
          Sorry, but I really need to vent. I stupidly made an attempt to fit in at NTCoF and have gotten a good firm kick in the teeth for my efforts. What happened was that Ethel and John have been trying to talk me into having the NTCoF's summer solstice party for about two weeks now. At first I didn't want to its a big party and I don't know many of them. I tend to be somewhat reclusive. But I've hosted a few game nights and they have been a lot of fun so I said OK. Jim and Ethel talked to Mike about it and Ethel told me Friday night that Mike liked the idea. I had planned to talk to him to get the party into the newsletter handout thing but didn't get around to it. I did print out some invitations and took them to the services today to hand them out. After the service I went up to Mike to talk to him about listing it in the Web site. The asshole gave me a hard time with it. First he complained that I hadn't been to the services in months (not a good techniques for making someone feel welcome) and them he accused me of trying to get "publicity"! I told him to forget it and left. I am seriously thinking about just giving my keys to Ethel and going to a hotel for the night. I am not a party person and if this is the attitude I'm going to get from these people then I really don't want to be at my own party. 
           
          Being in a church service again brought up all kinds of painful memories for me to the point that I am just upset beyond all reason. Tim was doing another one of his "blast a religion of the month sermons" and he picked Calvinist denominations as his target de jour. Sitting there listening to all the bullshit reminded me of when I was a kid. I used to enjoy church - not the sermons but the time I spent with my grandfather. We would always sit together in the back and I would lean against him and close my eyes with his arm around me. He always had a particular smell that I loved that was a combination of his after shave and his suits. I miss him. When he died, I was 12 years old and there were several months when his dementia was so bad that he didn't know who was in his room. It was a very difficult time for my mother and I. We lived with him because mother didn't have a job. The medical insurance ran out leaving a massive debt. Then I was (wrongly) accused of breaking a $20,000 stained glass window at the church. They threw mother and I out. So we had no emotional support either while he died. Religious leaders are fucking geniuses aren't they?
           
          I lost my faith in both justice and organized religion then and never got either one back. Although I have discovered that if you live long enough the truth will eventually come out. About 12 years ago, some church women crashed the get together at the house following my mother's funeral. Two of them planned to try to trap me into confessing about the window. They kept talking about the statute of limitations was past and that no one cared anymore. I kept denying it because I CARED and I don't think that it will EVER be OVER with ME. What happened next was almost funny. They kept insisting with a kind tone of voice that it was of no "real" importance and wouldn't it feel better if I repented and got it off my chest?" Their message got through to the woman who actually did it (accidentally) who confessed infront of every one at the house. She said that she blamed me because she knew that my grandfather was wealthy (she knew nothing of the bills!) And that she would never be able to pay for it. So the truth did out -- just not in time for my mother to know. I can never be sure if my grand papa understood the accusation or not.
           
          Tim said something in his sermon that I've heard before and may have even said myself. He said, "There is nothing wrong with a church, the problem is with superstition." I have come to the conclusion that this is wrong. There is very little wrong with superstition (with some obvious qualifications) but a lot wrong with churches. Churches exist for two purposes only. One is socialization and the other is power. Socializing is fine but doesn't require a church. A social club will work just as well. The other reason is controll/power. Mikes petty bullshit today was a badly concealed poorly executed power play that happened to catch me while I was emotionally unsteady. Fuck him.
           
          My dilemma is: do I want to create a new power structure in the "humanist church" No way!
          One of the things I am going to have to insist upon is that whatever we end up doing -- there must be a structure that actively prevents any person from exercising power plays. Just having a democratic process is NOT enough. There must a stated principal of AVOIDING as much organized power as possible! I'm going to try to come up with a way to put this into writing along with the meeting format that's in progress.
           
          By the way, I was unable to open your e-mail. MSN8 (which I hate because it crashes almost daily,) says it's dangerous. Could you try a different format (simple text files seem to work best) and try again? Unless of course you really do have a virus! I hope you don't.
           
          Thanks in advance for letting me vent. I really had to get this off my chest! I've been crying all afternoon.
           
          Cynthia


          --
          Humanist Church
          http://www.humanistchurch.org/
          To subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list, please send a blank e-mail message to humanistchurch-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or
          humanistchurch-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com.
          All messages are publicly archived at http://egroups.com/group/humanistchurch/.


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          Do you Yahoo!?
          Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

        • sw
          Of course it s okay to vent here, Cynthia. What I ve noticed about you is that you are very serious minded. You even take games seriously; you re taking the
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
            Of course it's okay to vent here, Cynthia. What I've noticed about you is that you are very serious minded. You even take games seriously; you're taking the Solstice party seriously. Chill out!
             
            The last time time I attended the NTCoF, I drove 70 miles by myself one way and was treated like a stranger. I remember when Tim arrived and about 12 or so were in the hall, and he greeted every single one of them but me. That same service, a female aquaintance of mine showed up on my advice and she couldn't get out of there fast enough, although she is the shy type. I will say that Mike, who you seem to hate, did make a point to somewhat welcome me briefly.
             
            Anyway, I didn't cry all afternoon, but I did decide to never expect anything from that group of people. I like to chat on the Talk list because they are intellectuals, but that's as far as it goes.
             
            When I first decided to check-out atheist groups, I thought I'd really find alot of folks like me, some friends to hang out with --WRONG! Live and learn. Now, I just don't expect much from such things, so I don't get upset.
             
            Shannon
             


            CAKeaton <CynthiaKeaton@...> wrote:
            Sorry, but I really need to vent. I stupidly made an attempt to fit in at NTCoF and have gotten a good firm kick in the teeth for my efforts. What happened was that Ethel and John have been trying to talk me into having the NTCoF's summer solstice party for about two weeks now. At first I didn't want to its a big party and I don't know many of them. I tend to be somewhat reclusive. But I've hosted a few game nights and they have been a lot of fun so I said OK. Jim and Ethel talked to Mike about it and Ethel told me Friday night that Mike liked the idea. I had planned to talk to him to get the party into the newsletter handout thing but didn't get around to it. I did print out some invitations and took them to the services today to hand them out. After the service I went up to Mike to talk to him about listing it in the Web site. The asshole gave me a hard time with it. First he complained that I hadn't been to the services in months (not a good techniques for making someone feel welcome) and them he accused me of trying to get "publicity"! I told him to forget it and left. I am seriously thinking about just giving my keys to Ethel and going to a hotel for the night. I am not a party person and if this is the attitude I'm going to get from these people then I really don't want to be at my own party. 
             
            Being in a church service again brought up all kinds of painful memories for me to the point that I am just upset beyond all reason. Tim was doing another one of his "blast a religion of the month sermons" and he picked Calvinist denominations as his target de jour. Sitting there listening to all the bullshit reminded me of when I was a kid. I used to enjoy church - not the sermons but the time I spent with my grandfather. We would always sit together in the back and I would lean against him and close my eyes with his arm around me. He always had a particular smell that I loved that was a combination of his after shave and his suits. I miss him. When he died, I was 12 years old and there were several months when his dementia was so bad that he didn't know who was in his room. It was a very difficult time for my mother and I. We lived with him because mother didn't have a job. The medical insurance ran out leaving a massive debt. Then I was (wrongly) accused of breaking a $20,000 stained glass window at the church. They threw mother and I out. So we had no emotional support either while he died. Religious leaders are fucking geniuses aren't they?
             
            I lost my faith in both justice and organized religion then and never got either one back. Although I have discovered that if you live long enough the truth will eventually come out. About 12 years ago, some church women crashed the get together at the house following my mother's funeral. Two of them planned to try to trap me into confessing about the window. They kept talking about the statute of limitations was past and that no one cared anymore. I kept denying it because I CARED and I don't think that it will EVER be OVER with ME. What happened next was almost funny. They kept insisting with a kind tone of voice that it was of no "real" importance and wouldn't it feel better if I repented and got it off my chest?" Their message got through to the woman who actually did it (accidentally) who confessed infront of every one at the house. She said that she blamed me because she knew that my grandfather was wealthy (she knew nothing of the bills!) And that she would never be able to pay for it. So the truth did out -- just not in time for my mother to know. I can never be sure if my grand papa understood the accusation or not.
             
            Tim said something in his sermon that I've heard before and may have even said myself. He said, "There is nothing wrong with a church, the problem is with superstition." I have come to the conclusion that this is wrong. There is very little wrong with superstition (with some obvious qualifications) but a lot wrong with churches. Churches exist for two purposes only. One is socialization and the other is power. Socializing is fine but doesn't require a church. A social club will work just as well. The other reason is controll/power. Mikes petty bullshit today was a badly concealed poorly executed power play that happened to catch me while I was emotionally unsteady. Fuck him.
             
            My dilemma is: do I want to create a new power structure in the "humanist church" No way!
            One of the things I am going to have to insist upon is that whatever we end up doing -- there must be a structure that actively prevents any person from exercising power plays. Just having a democratic process is NOT enough. There must a stated principal of AVOIDING as much organized power as possible! I'm going to try to come up with a way to put this into writing along with the meeting format that's in progress.
             
            By the way, I was unable to open your e-mail. MSN8 (which I hate because it crashes almost daily,) says it's dangerous. Could you try a different format (simple text files seem to work best) and try again? Unless of course you really do have a virus! I hope you don't.
             
            Thanks in advance for letting me vent. I really had to get this off my chest! I've been crying all afternoon.
             
            Cynthia


            --
            Humanist Church
            http://www.humanistchurch.org/
            To subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list, please send a blank e-mail message to humanistchurch-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or
            humanistchurch-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com.
            All messages are publicly archived at http://egroups.com/group/humanistchurch/.


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            Do you Yahoo!?
            The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

          • David Wallace Croft
            Cynthia, ... If the party is at your house, maybe we could make it a joint HCNT/NTCoF Summer Solstice party? If the NTCoF then decides to back out as a
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
              Cynthia,


              CAKeaton wrote:
              > went up to Mike to talk to him about listing it in the Web site. The
              > asshole gave me a hard time with it. First he complained that I hadn't


              If the party is at your house, maybe we could make it a joint HCNT/NTCoF
              Summer Solstice party? If the NTCoF then decides to back out as a
              result, so be it.


              > off my chest?" Their message got through to the woman who actually did
              > it (accidentally) who confessed infront of every one at the house. She


              That is an amazing story. That should definitely go into your web
              autobiography.


              > work just as well. The other reason is controll/power. Mikes petty
              > bullshit today was a badly concealed poorly executed power play that
              > happened to catch me while I was emotionally unsteady. Fuck him.


              Certainly Mike has to be upset about our efforts to start the HCNT.
              Mike is a member of this mailing list, by the way.


              > My dilemma is: do I want to create a new power structure in the
              > "humanist church" No way!
              > One of the things I am going to have to insist upon is that whatever we
              > end up doing -- there must be a structure that actively prevents any
              > person from exercising power plays. Just having a democratic process is
              > NOT enough. There must a stated principal of AVOIDING as much organized
              > power as possible! I'm going to try to come up with a way to put this
              > into writing along with the meeting format that's in progress.


              I am definitely with you there. I'm a big fan of direct democracy and
              Robert's Rules. The Libertarian Party, ironically, has some of the same
              problems. I've been able to fix them by introducing Robert's Rules to
              the group. It changed the whole spirit of the state executive committee
              meetings from an authoritarian dictatorship to a group mind. General
              Robert developed Robert's Rules out of a need to moderate church
              meetings, believe it or not. This document has been updated for over a
              hundred years and actually does work.


              > By the way, I was unable to open your e-mail. MSN8 (which I hate because
              > it crashes almost daily,) says it's dangerous. Could you try a different
              > format (simple text files seem to work best) and try again? Unless of
              > course you really do have a virus! I hope you don't.


              If you are referring to the e-mail from the mailing list, this may help.
              1. Go to this web site: http://egroups.com/group/humanistchurch.
              2. Log in.
              3. Click on "Edit my membership" in the upper right.
              4. Toggle your message format setting to "Do not convert to HTML".

              If you need help, give me a ring.


              > Thanks in advance for letting me vent. I really had to get this off my
              > chest! I've been crying all afternoon.


              There is something seriously wrong with the NTCoF. The HCNT is our
              chance to fix it. If we do not get the HCNT off of the ground, I fear
              that the NTCoF is going to continue to hurt true freethinkers for years
              to come.


              --
              David Wallace Croft
              http://alumni.caltech.edu/~croft/
              (972) 883-2205 office
              (214) 731-9284 home
            • David Wallace Croft
              Shannon, ... I went through the same experience with Gorski. I made certain assumptions about his character based upon the fact that he was a leader of a
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
                Shannon,


                sw wrote:
                > When I first decided to check-out atheist groups, I thought I'd really
                > find alot of folks like me, some friends to hang out with --WRONG! Live
                > and learn. Now, I just don't expect much from such things, so I don't
                > get upset.


                I went through the same experience with Gorski. I made certain
                assumptions about his character based upon the fact that he was a leader
                of a so-called freethought church. When those assumptions proved to be
                false, I was somewhat shocked.


                --
                David Wallace Croft
                http://alumni.caltech.edu/~croft/
                (972) 883-2205 office
                (214) 731-9284 home
              • Shannon
                I don t think we ought to be alienating anyone at the NTCoF, least of all the leaders. Hell, none of us are perfect. If one calls someone an asshole and says
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
                  I don't think we ought to be alienating anyone at the NTCoF, least of
                  all the leaders. Hell, none of us are perfect. If one calls someone
                  an "asshole" and says "fuck him!" in public, one ought to explain
                  exactly why.

                  Cynthia, you just can't say that about someone when all they did was
                  point out that you haven't attended and/or are seeking publicity.
                  What do you say about people who really do wrong?

                  I think you are upset about other things and are venting in a
                  particular direction. I could be wrong. What exactly did Mike say or
                  do that warranted such vitriol?

                  Shannon





                  --- In humanistchurch@yahoogroups.com, David Wallace Croft
                  <david.croft@v...> wrote:
                  > Shannon,
                  >
                  >
                  > sw wrote:
                  > > When I first decided to check-out atheist groups, I thought I'd
                  really
                  > > find alot of folks like me, some friends to hang out with --
                  WRONG! Live
                  > > and learn. Now, I just don't expect much from such things, so I
                  don't
                  > > get upset.
                  >
                  >
                  > I went through the same experience with Gorski. I made certain
                  > assumptions about his character based upon the fact that he was a
                  leader
                  > of a so-called freethought church. When those assumptions proved
                  to be
                  > false, I was somewhat shocked.
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > David Wallace Croft
                  > http://alumni.caltech.edu/~croft/
                  > (972) 883-2205 office
                  > (214) 731-9284 home
                • sw
                  I didn t write this (see below) just because David pointed out that Mike is on the e-list... I knew that already. The anti-theistic cause is greater than all
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
                    I didn't write this (see below) just because David pointed out that Mike is on the e-list... I knew that already.
                     
                    The anti-theistic cause is greater than all of us. Sure the NTCoF has their own way of doing things --let them do it! Don't stick your neck out for a church you don't agree with and there'll be no problems.
                     
                    Like I said, I like to bug them on the Talk list, and I would hang-out at the social gathering just to meet other atheists if it weren't so far away, but I know better than try to get involved in the "meritocracy". It really conflicts with my personality to suck-up in such a way that I would always have to worry if Fathers Tim and Mike approved. But that's the way they do it, they have followers and a monthly audience, so there ya have it. I wouldn't want anyone to feel unwelcome at our deal, so let's be careful with the strong condemnations.
                     
                    Shannon
                     
                     

                    Shannon <utopiandreamer63@...> wrote:
                    I don't think we ought to be alienating anyone at the NTCoF, least of
                    all the leaders. Hell, none of us are perfect. If one calls someone
                    an "asshole" and says "fuck him!" in public, one ought to explain
                    exactly why.

                    Cynthia, you just can't say that about someone when all they did was
                    point out that you haven't attended and/or are seeking publicity.
                    What do you say about people who really do wrong?

                    I think you are upset about other things and are venting in a
                    particular direction. I could be wrong. What exactly did Mike say or
                    do that warranted such vitriol?

                    Shannon





                    --- In humanistchurch@yahoogroups.com, David Wallace Croft
                    <david.croft@v...> wrote:
                    > Shannon,
                    >
                    >
                    > sw wrote:
                    > > When I first decided to check-out atheist groups, I thought I'd
                    really
                    > > find alot of folks like me, some friends to hang out with --
                    WRONG! Live
                    > > and learn. Now, I just don't expect much from such things, so I
                    don't
                    > > get upset.
                    >
                    >
                    > I went through the same experience with Gorski.  I made certain
                    > assumptions about his character based upon the fact that he was a
                    leader
                    > of a so-called freethought church.  When those assumptions proved
                    to be
                    > false, I was somewhat shocked.
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > David Wallace Croft
                    > http://alumni.caltech.edu/~croft/
                    > (972) 883-2205 office
                    > (214) 731-9284 home



                    --
                    Humanist Church
                    http://www.humanistchurch.org/
                    To subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list, please send a blank e-mail message to humanistchurch-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or
                    humanistchurch-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com.
                    All messages are publicly archived at http://egroups.com/group/humanistchurch/.


                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

                  • sw
                    I hear ya, Cynthia. That s what happens when there s a boss of a church group. Otherwise, it would be just one vote being rude, but when it comes from the
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 2, 2003
                      I hear ya, Cynthia. That's what happens when there's a boss of a church group. Otherwise, it would be just one vote being rude, but when it comes from the boss, it's really infuriating.
                       
                      I don't know if I was intentionally singled out for the cold shoulder last time I visited the NTCoF - I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt - but I decided right then to never go out of my way in the least for them. I don't want to be upset. But I do wish them well, and am glad they are there for the sake of Freethought.
                       
                      Hopefully, HCNT will grow and be plenty of ungodly church for all of us!
                       
                      Shannon

                      CAKeaton <CynthiaKeaton@...> wrote:

                      It's probably best that Mike is on the list. I didn't know that he was and had forgotten that this is a public forum. I had planned to send him a separate e-mail telling him how I felt but I wanted to calm down before I wrote it. It's simpler this way.  Mike was very rude to me at the service - I have called him an asshole. We're even. Tit for tat. When he publicly apologizes for his rudeness at NTCoF - I will send an e-mail to this group apologizing for my choice of words.

                      I gave up trying to change NTCoF a while ago. I was only trying to fit in.
                       
                      I honor my word and my invitations. The party is still on and only NTCoF is invited as per my original intentions.

                      One of your questions was very interesting. What would I do if someone did something very wrong? Well let's see. I once stopped a rape in progress. I once took my cousin to court to get custody of her child because she was letting the 14 year old girl quit school and live in a sexual relationship with an 18 year old boy. I've been fortunate enough to lead a sheltered life and those have been the only real wrongs that I have personally encountered. I think the last thing I would do would be to get on the internet and bellyache about it. Real wrongs require real actions. Venting only works when the problem is something like rudeness. And it has worked. I feel fine.

                      Cynthia
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: sw
                      Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:58 PM
                      Subject: Re: [humanistchurch] Re: Hope it's OK to vent here!

                      I didn't write this (see below) just because David pointed out that Mike is on the e-list... I knew that already.
                       
                      The anti-theistic cause is greater than all of us. Sure the NTCoF has their own way of doing things --let them do it! Don't stick your neck out for a church you don't agree with and there'll be no problems.
                       
                      Like I said, I like to bug them on the Talk list, and I would hang-out at the social gathering just to meet other atheists if it weren't so far away, but I know better than try to get involved in the "meritocracy". It really conflicts with my personality to suck-up in such a way that I would always have to worry if Fathers Tim and Mike approved. But that's the way they do it, they have followers and a monthly audience, so there ya have it. I wouldn't want anyone to feel unwelcome at our deal, so let's be careful with the strong condemnations.
                       
                      Shannon
                       


                      Shannon <utopiandreamer63@...> wrote:
                      I don't think we ought to be alienating anyone at the NTCoF, least of
                      all the leaders. Hell, none of us are perfect. If one calls someone
                      an "asshole" and says "fuck him!" in public, one ought to explain
                      exactly why.

                      Cynthia, you just can't say that about someone when all they did was
                      point out that you haven't attended and/or are seeking publicity.
                      What do you say about people who really do wrong?

                      I think you are upset about other things and are venting in a
                      particular direction. I could be wrong. What exactly did Mike say or
                      do that warranted such vitriol?

                      Shannon





                      --- In humanistchurch@yahoogroups.com, David Wallace Croft
                      <david.croft@v...> wrote:
                      > Shannon,
                      >
                      >
                      > sw wrote:
                      > > When I first decided to check-out atheist groups, I thought I'd
                      really
                      > > find alot of folks like me, some friends to hang out with --
                      WRONG! Live
                      > > and learn. Now, I just don't expect much from such things, so I
                      don't
                      > > get upset.
                      >
                      >
                      > I went through the same experience with Gorski.  I made certain
                      > assumptions about his character based upon the fact that he was a
                      leader
                      > of a so-called freethought church.  When those assumptions proved
                      to be
                      > false, I was somewhat shocked.
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > David Wallace Croft
                      > http://alumni.caltech.edu/~croft/
                      > (972) 883-2205 office
                      > (214) 731-9284 home



                      --
                      Humanist Church
                      http://www.humanistchurch.org/
                      To subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list, please send a blank e-mail message to humanistchurch-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or
                      humanistchurch-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com.
                      All messages are publicly archived at http://egroups.com/group/humanistchurch/.


                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

                      --
                      Humanist Church
                      http://www.humanistchurch.org/
                      To subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list, please send a blank e-mail message to humanistchurch-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or
                      humanistchurch-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com.
                      All messages are publicly archived at http://egroups.com/group/humanistchurch/.


                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                      --
                      Humanist Church
                      http://www.humanistchurch.org/
                      To subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list, please send a blank e-mail message to humanistchurch-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or
                      humanistchurch-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com.
                      All messages are publicly archived at http://egroups.com/group/humanistchurch/.


                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

                    • Shannon
                      ... chance to fix it. If we do not get the HCNT off of the ground, I fear that the NTCoF is going to continue to hurt true freethinkers for years to come.
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 4, 2003
                        >>There is something seriously wrong with the NTCoF. The HCNT is our
                        chance to fix it. If we do not get the HCNT off of the ground, I
                        fear that the NTCoF is going to continue to hurt true freethinkers
                        for years to come.

                        David, I said to NTCoF leadership that I would ask you to expound on
                        this and ask you why you think that NTCoF can or will hurt true
                        freethinkers for years to come. This statement is apparently sticking
                        in their craw.

                        Shannon
                      • David Wallace Croft
                        Shannon, ... I think the main problem lies with Dr. Tim if you don t agree with me you re not a freethinker Gorski. -- David Wallace Croft
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 5, 2003
                          Shannon,


                          Shannon wrote:
                          > David, I said to NTCoF leadership that I would ask you to expound on
                          > this and ask you why you think that NTCoF can or will hurt true
                          > freethinkers for years to come. This statement is apparently sticking
                          > in their craw.


                          I think the main problem lies with Dr. Tim "if you don't agree with me
                          you're not a freethinker" Gorski.


                          --
                          David Wallace Croft
                          http://alumni.caltech.edu/~croft/
                          (972) 883-2205 office
                          (214) 731-9284 home
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.