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Re: [hugoye-list] RE: Shi'ism, Saints, Syriacs and Transoxiana

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  • Sean Anthony
    Hi Todd, There is a great deal of overlap between Shi ism and Syriac Christianity (and other religions of the Near East as well) on all fronts. Kufah, the
    Message 1 of 7 , May 5, 2013
      Hi Todd, 


      There is a great deal of overlap between Shi'ism and Syriac Christianity (and other religions of the Near East as well) on all fronts. Kufah, the epicenter of Shi'ism, was a giant assimilation engine for bringing non-Arabs into Islamicate culture and, of course, many of the earliest non-Arabs brought their beliefs, stories, culture, etc. with them. Really, it's just a matter of connecting the dots historically, but the lines aren't always straight. 

      There is scant evidence, however, that Syriac speaking Christians had anything to do with the nativist and restorationist movements among the non-urban populations of the eastern lands of the caliphate. These are nearly exclusively Khurram-diniyya/'Neo-Mazdakite'. (Intellectual history is another matter though. This is a good place to start: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/korramis).

      No one has done a direct comparison of Shi'ite ziyarat and Christian pilgrimage to shrines, to my knowledge, though I may be forgetting something.  Diem and Schoeller's 3 volume study, The Living and the Dead in Islam (2005) is a good place to start though:



      And Leor Halevi's excellent monograph, Muhammad's Grave (2011), contains many comparative observations on burial practices among Muslims, Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians:


      The Hajj is a massive subject that  I can't address briefly here, but you might be interested in look at the Christian physician Qusta ibn Luqa's treatise on his advised medical regime for Muslim pilgrims on Hajj edited by Gerrit Bos.

      Hope that helps. 

      Sean 


      =====================
      Sean W. Anthony
      Assistant Professor of Islamic History
      390 MacKenzie Hall
      1288 University of Oregon
      Eugene, OR 97403





      From: Todd Godwin <toddgodwin@...>
      To: "hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com" <hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sat, May 4, 2013 9:21:56 AM
      Subject: [hugoye-list] RE: Shi'ism, Saints, Syriacs and Transoxiana

       

      does anyone know of any research which may have been done on the issues of saints in early shi'ism and possible connections to 7th and 8th century syriac christianity and its politics in eastern Abbasid empire?   shia-ism moved away from Arab Muslim emphasis on the Hajj.  The last Abbasid caliph to lead the Hajj was I believe in the early 9th century.  This is tied Iranian indepedence movements from Abbasid control in Transoxiania and in Persia.  I am wondering if a connection to Syriac christianity, which is heavily focused on saints and saints' relics and holy men in its East Syriac form (where the saint may have been a charisma holder like the Shi' holy man), can be found and if so how?   Good research on early shi'ism and its saints and politics would be appreciated too, if anyone knows of any.
       
       
       
      thanks, Todd
       
        



       

      To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
      From: steven.ring@...
      Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 08:28:51 +0100
      Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] [agade] NEWS: Syriac ms confiscated

       
      It looks like an East Syrian liturgical Ms. Perhaps liturgical prayers extracted from the East Syrian Shhima for the period between the Nativity and the Epiphany (December - January), Regards, S.


      On 04/05/2013 04:02, Hidemi Takahashi wrote:
       

      Dear all,

      You'll find a few more, different, photos of the manuscript starting from here:

      http://www.habertakip.com/component/habertakip/cluster/2720332-van&apos%3Bda_300_yillik_suryanice_kitap.html

      including one of the opening page at a higher resolution here:

      http://www.haberler.com/van-da-300-yillik-tarihi-kitap-4572913-haberi/

      HT

      -------------------------

      >From <http://tinyurl.com/c7lsuef>:
      [Go there for pict]
      ========================================

      Priceless 300-year-old religious manuscript in Syriac discovered in
      eastern province

      A 300-year-old religious manuscript has been seized by the police in
      the eastern province of Van.

      The Anti-Smuggling and Organized Crime Department units of the Van
      police have detained one suspect and seized the manuscript after
      receiving a tip on the matter.

      The manuscript, which is written in Syriac on watermarked paper and
      covered with goat skin, is around 300 years old, according to experts.

      Experts confirmed that the manuscript is original and priceless after
      an initial examination.

      Further investigation of the matter is ongoing.


      No virus found in this message.
      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3162/6292 - Release Date: 05/02/13



    • Todd Godwin
      thank you Sean! I may have to come back and pick your brain a bit later on this after giving it some more thought and following up on these references. Todd
      Message 2 of 7 , May 6, 2013
        thank you Sean!  I may have to come back and pick your brain a bit later on this after giving it some more thought and following up on these references. 
         
        Todd



         

        To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
        From: tron_honto@...
        Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 10:04:52 -0700
        Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] RE: Shi'ism, Saints, Syriacs and Transoxiana

         
        Hi Todd, 


        There is a great deal of overlap between Shi'ism and Syriac Christianity (and other religions of the Near East as well) on all fronts. Kufah, the epicenter of Shi'ism, was a giant assimilation engine for bringing non-Arabs into Islamicate culture and, of course, many of the earliest non-Arabs brought their beliefs, stories, culture, etc. with them. Really, it's just a matter of connecting the dots historically, but the lines aren't always straight. 

        There is scant evidence, however, that Syriac speaking Christians had anything to do with the nativist and restorationist movements among the non-urban populations of the eastern lands of the caliphate. These are nearly exclusively Khurram-diniyya/'Neo-Mazdakite'. (Intellectual history is another matter though. This is a good place to start: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/korramis).

        No one has done a direct comparison of Shi'ite ziyarat and Christian pilgrimage to shrines, to my knowledge, though I may be forgetting something.  Diem and Schoeller's 3 volume study, The Living and the Dead in Islam (2005) is a good place to start though:



        And Leor Halevi's excellent monograph, Muhammad's Grave (2011), contains many comparative observations on burial practices among Muslims, Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians:


        The Hajj is a massive subject that  I can't address briefly here, but you might be interested in look at the Christian physician Qusta ibn Luqa's treatise on his advised medical regime for Muslim pilgrims on Hajj edited by Gerrit Bos.

        Hope that helps. 

        Sean 


        =====================
        Sean W. Anthony
        Assistant Professor of Islamic History
        390 MacKenzie Hall
        1288 University of Oregon
        Eugene, OR 97403





        From: Todd Godwin <toddgodwin@...>
        To: "hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com" <hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sat, May 4, 2013 9:21:56 AM
        Subject: [hugoye-list] RE: Shi'ism, Saints, Syriacs and Transoxiana

         


        does anyone know of any research which may have been done on the issues of saints in early shi'ism and possible connections to 7th and 8th century syriac christianity and its politics in eastern Abbasid empire?   shia-ism moved away from Arab Muslim emphasis on the Hajj.  The last Abbasid caliph to lead the Hajj was I believe in the early 9th century.  This is tied Iranian indepedence movements from Abbasid control in Transoxiania and in Persia.  I am wondering if a connection to Syriac christianity, which is heavily focused on saints and saints' relics and holy men in its East Syriac form (where the saint may have been a charisma holder like the Shi' holy man), can be found and if so how?   Good research on early shi'ism and its saints and politics would be appreciated too, if anyone knows of any.
         
         
         
        thanks, Todd
         
          



         

        To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
        From: steven.ring@...
        Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 08:28:51 +0100
        Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] [agade] NEWS: Syriac ms confiscated

         
        It looks like an East Syrian liturgical Ms. Perhaps liturgical prayers extracted from the East Syrian Shhima for the period between the Nativity and the Epiphany (December - January), Regards, S.


        On 04/05/2013 04:02, Hidemi Takahashi wrote:
         
        Dear all,

        You'll find a few more, different, photos of the manuscript starting from here:

        http://www.habertakip.com/component/habertakip/cluster/2720332-van&apos%3Bda_300_yillik_suryanice_kitap.html

        including one of the opening page at a higher resolution here:

        http://www.haberler.com/van-da-300-yillik-tarihi-kitap-4572913-haberi/

        HT

        -------------------------

        >From <http://tinyurl.com/c7lsuef>:
        [Go there for pict]
        ========================================

        Priceless 300-year-old religious manuscript in Syriac discovered in
        eastern province

        A 300-year-old religious manuscript has been seized by the police in
        the eastern province of Van.

        The Anti-Smuggling and Organized Crime Department units of the Van
        police have detained one suspect and seized the manuscript after
        receiving a tip on the matter.

        The manuscript, which is written in Syriac on watermarked paper and
        covered with goat skin, is around 300 years old, according to experts.

        Experts confirmed that the manuscript is original and priceless after
        an initial examination.

        Further investigation of the matter is ongoing.



        No virus found in this message.
        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3162/6292 - Release Date: 05/02/13




      • Guy Trolliet
        Hi Todd, You may want to look at the work done by Mohammad-Ali Amir-Moezzi, particularly if you are French conversant, with his two books, “Le guide divin
        Message 3 of 7 , May 13, 2013

          Hi Todd,

          You may want to look at the work done by Mohammad-Ali Amir-Moezzi, particularly if you are French conversant, with his two books, “Le guide divin dans le shî'isme originel : Aux sources de l'ésotérisme en islam” and “Le Coran silencieux et le Coran parlant”.

          All the best,

           

          Guy

          From: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Todd Godwin
          Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 11:08 AM
          To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [hugoye-list] RE: Shi'ism, Saints, Syriacs and Transoxiana

           

           

          thank you Sean!  I may have to come back and pick your brain a bit later on this after giving it some more thought and following up on these references. 
           
          Todd


           


          To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
          From: tron_honto@...
          Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 10:04:52 -0700
          Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] RE: Shi'ism, Saints, Syriacs and Transoxiana

           

          Hi Todd, 

           

           

          There is a great deal of overlap between Shi'ism and Syriac Christianity (and other religions of the Near East as well) on all fronts. Kufah, the epicenter of Shi'ism, was a giant assimilation engine for bringing non-Arabs into Islamicate culture and, of course, many of the earliest non-Arabs brought their beliefs, stories, culture, etc. with them. Really, it's just a matter of connecting the dots historically, but the lines aren't always straight. 

           

          There is scant evidence, however, that Syriac speaking Christians had anything to do with the nativist and restorationist movements among the non-urban populations of the eastern lands of the caliphate. These are nearly exclusively Khurram-diniyya/'Neo-Mazdakite'. (Intellectual history is another matter though. This is a good place to start: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/korramis).

           

          No one has done a direct comparison of Shi'ite ziyarat and Christian pilgrimage to shrines, to my knowledge, though I may be forgetting something.  Diem and Schoeller's 3 volume study, The Living and the Dead in Islam (2005) is a good place to start though:

           

           

           

          And Leor Halevi's excellent monograph, Muhammad's Grave (2011), contains many comparative observations on burial practices among Muslims, Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians:

           

           

          The Hajj is a massive subject that  I can't address briefly here, but you might be interested in look at the Christian physician Qusta ibn Luqa's treatise on his advised medical regime for Muslim pilgrims on Hajj edited by Gerrit Bos.

           

          Hope that helps. 

           

          Sean 

           

           

          =====================

          Sean W. Anthony

          Assistant Professor of Islamic History

          390 MacKenzie Hall

          1288 University of Oregon

          Eugene, OR 97403

           

           

           

           


          From: Todd Godwin <toddgodwin@...>
          To: "hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com" <hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sat, May 4, 2013 9:21:56 AM
          Subject: [hugoye-list] RE: Shi'ism, Saints, Syriacs and Transoxiana

           

           

          does anyone know of any research which may have been done on the issues of saints in early shi'ism and possible connections to 7th and 8th century syriac christianity and its politics in eastern Abbasid empire?   shia-ism moved away from Arab Muslim emphasis on the Hajj.  The last Abbasid caliph to lead the Hajj was I believe in the early 9th century.  This is tied Iranian indepedence movements from Abbasid control in Transoxiania and in Persia.  I am wondering if a connection to Syriac christianity, which is heavily focused on saints and saints' relics and holy men in its East Syriac form (where the saint may have been a charisma holder like the Shi' holy man), can be found and if so how?   Good research on early shi'ism and its saints and politics would be appreciated too, if anyone knows of any.
           
           
           
          thanks, Todd
           
            


           


          To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
          From: steven.ring@...
          Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 08:28:51 +0100
          Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] [agade] NEWS: Syriac ms confiscated

           

          It looks like an East Syrian liturgical Ms. Perhaps liturgical prayers extracted from the East Syrian Shhima for the period between the Nativity and the Epiphany (December - January), Regards, S.

          On 04/05/2013 04:02, Hidemi Takahashi wrote:

           

          Dear all,

          You'll find a few more, different, photos of the manuscript starting from here:

          http://www.habertakip.com/component/habertakip/cluster/2720332-van&apos%3Bda_300_yillik_suryanice_kitap.html

          including one of the opening page at a higher resolution here:

          http://www.haberler.com/van-da-300-yillik-tarihi-kitap-4572913-haberi/

          HT

          -------------------------

          >From <http://tinyurl.com/c7lsuef>:
          [Go there for pict]
          ========================================

          Priceless 300-year-old religious manuscript in Syriac discovered in
          eastern province

          A 300-year-old religious manuscript has been seized by the police in
          the eastern province of Van.

          The Anti-Smuggling and Organized Crime Department units of the Van
          police have detained one suspect and seized the manuscript after
          receiving a tip on the matter.

          The manuscript, which is written in Syriac on watermarked paper and
          covered with goat skin, is around 300 years old, according to experts.

          Experts confirmed that the manuscript is original and priceless after
          an initial examination.

          Further investigation of the matter is ongoing.


          No virus found in this message.
          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3162/6292 - Release Date: 05/02/13

           

           

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