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Re: [hugoye-list] [agade] NEWS: Syriac ms confiscated

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  • Steven Ring
    It looks like an East Syrian liturgical Ms. Perhaps liturgical prayers extracted from the East Syrian Shhima for the period between the Nativity and the
    Message 1 of 7 , May 4, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      It looks like an East Syrian liturgical Ms. Perhaps liturgical prayers extracted from the East Syrian Shhima for the period between the Nativity and the Epiphany (December - January), Regards, S.


      On 04/05/2013 04:02, Hidemi Takahashi wrote:
       

      Dear all,

      You'll find a few more, different, photos of the manuscript starting from here:

      http://www.habertakip.com/component/habertakip/cluster/2720332-van&apos%3Bda_300_yillik_suryanice_kitap.html

      including one of the opening page at a higher resolution here:

      http://www.haberler.com/van-da-300-yillik-tarihi-kitap-4572913-haberi/

      HT

      -------------------------

      >From <http://tinyurl.com/c7lsuef>:
      [Go there for pict]
      ========================================

      Priceless 300-year-old religious manuscript in Syriac discovered in
      eastern province

      A 300-year-old religious manuscript has been seized by the police in
      the eastern province of Van.

      The Anti-Smuggling and Organized Crime Department units of the Van
      police have detained one suspect and seized the manuscript after
      receiving a tip on the matter.

      The manuscript, which is written in Syriac on watermarked paper and
      covered with goat skin, is around 300 years old, according to experts.

      Experts confirmed that the manuscript is original and priceless after
      an initial examination.

      Further investigation of the matter is ongoing.

      No virus found in this message.
      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3162/6292 - Release Date: 05/02/13


    • Todd Godwin
      does anyone know of any research which may have been done on the issues of saints in early shi ism and possible connections to 7th and 8th century syriac
      Message 2 of 7 , May 4, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        does anyone know of any research which may have been done on the issues of saints in early shi'ism and possible connections to 7th and 8th century syriac christianity and its politics in eastern Abbasid empire?   shia-ism moved away from Arab Muslim emphasis on the Hajj.  The last Abbasid caliph to lead the Hajj was I believe in the early 9th century.  This is tied Iranian indepedence movements from Abbasid control in Transoxiania and in Persia.  I am wondering if a connection to Syriac christianity, which is heavily focused on saints and saints' relics and holy men in its East Syriac form (where the saint may have been a charisma holder like the Shi' holy man), can be found and if so how?   Good research on early shi'ism and its saints and politics would be appreciated too, if anyone knows of any.
         
         
         
        thanks, Todd
         
          



         

        To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
        From: steven.ring@...
        Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 08:28:51 +0100
        Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] [agade] NEWS: Syriac ms confiscated

         
        It looks like an East Syrian liturgical Ms. Perhaps liturgical prayers extracted from the East Syrian Shhima for the period between the Nativity and the Epiphany (December - January), Regards, S.


        On 04/05/2013 04:02, Hidemi Takahashi wrote:
         

        Dear all,

        You'll find a few more, different, photos of the manuscript starting from here:

        http://www.habertakip.com/component/habertakip/cluster/2720332-van&apos%3Bda_300_yillik_suryanice_kitap.html

        including one of the opening page at a higher resolution here:

        http://www.haberler.com/van-da-300-yillik-tarihi-kitap-4572913-haberi/

        HT

        -------------------------

        >From <http://tinyurl.com/c7lsuef>:
        [Go there for pict]
        ========================================

        Priceless 300-year-old religious manuscript in Syriac discovered in
        eastern province

        A 300-year-old religious manuscript has been seized by the police in
        the eastern province of Van.

        The Anti-Smuggling and Organized Crime Department units of the Van
        police have detained one suspect and seized the manuscript after
        receiving a tip on the matter.

        The manuscript, which is written in Syriac on watermarked paper and
        covered with goat skin, is around 300 years old, according to experts.

        Experts confirmed that the manuscript is original and priceless after
        an initial examination.

        Further investigation of the matter is ongoing.


        No virus found in this message.
        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3162/6292 - Release Date: 05/02/13



      • Sean Anthony
        Hi Todd, There is a great deal of overlap between Shi ism and Syriac Christianity (and other religions of the Near East as well) on all fronts. Kufah, the
        Message 3 of 7 , May 5, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Todd, 


          There is a great deal of overlap between Shi'ism and Syriac Christianity (and other religions of the Near East as well) on all fronts. Kufah, the epicenter of Shi'ism, was a giant assimilation engine for bringing non-Arabs into Islamicate culture and, of course, many of the earliest non-Arabs brought their beliefs, stories, culture, etc. with them. Really, it's just a matter of connecting the dots historically, but the lines aren't always straight. 

          There is scant evidence, however, that Syriac speaking Christians had anything to do with the nativist and restorationist movements among the non-urban populations of the eastern lands of the caliphate. These are nearly exclusively Khurram-diniyya/'Neo-Mazdakite'. (Intellectual history is another matter though. This is a good place to start: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/korramis).

          No one has done a direct comparison of Shi'ite ziyarat and Christian pilgrimage to shrines, to my knowledge, though I may be forgetting something.  Diem and Schoeller's 3 volume study, The Living and the Dead in Islam (2005) is a good place to start though:



          And Leor Halevi's excellent monograph, Muhammad's Grave (2011), contains many comparative observations on burial practices among Muslims, Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians:


          The Hajj is a massive subject that  I can't address briefly here, but you might be interested in look at the Christian physician Qusta ibn Luqa's treatise on his advised medical regime for Muslim pilgrims on Hajj edited by Gerrit Bos.

          Hope that helps. 

          Sean 


          =====================
          Sean W. Anthony
          Assistant Professor of Islamic History
          390 MacKenzie Hall
          1288 University of Oregon
          Eugene, OR 97403





          From: Todd Godwin <toddgodwin@...>
          To: "hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com" <hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sat, May 4, 2013 9:21:56 AM
          Subject: [hugoye-list] RE: Shi'ism, Saints, Syriacs and Transoxiana

           

          does anyone know of any research which may have been done on the issues of saints in early shi'ism and possible connections to 7th and 8th century syriac christianity and its politics in eastern Abbasid empire?   shia-ism moved away from Arab Muslim emphasis on the Hajj.  The last Abbasid caliph to lead the Hajj was I believe in the early 9th century.  This is tied Iranian indepedence movements from Abbasid control in Transoxiania and in Persia.  I am wondering if a connection to Syriac christianity, which is heavily focused on saints and saints' relics and holy men in its East Syriac form (where the saint may have been a charisma holder like the Shi' holy man), can be found and if so how?   Good research on early shi'ism and its saints and politics would be appreciated too, if anyone knows of any.
           
           
           
          thanks, Todd
           
            



           

          To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
          From: steven.ring@...
          Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 08:28:51 +0100
          Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] [agade] NEWS: Syriac ms confiscated

           
          It looks like an East Syrian liturgical Ms. Perhaps liturgical prayers extracted from the East Syrian Shhima for the period between the Nativity and the Epiphany (December - January), Regards, S.


          On 04/05/2013 04:02, Hidemi Takahashi wrote:
           

          Dear all,

          You'll find a few more, different, photos of the manuscript starting from here:

          http://www.habertakip.com/component/habertakip/cluster/2720332-van&apos%3Bda_300_yillik_suryanice_kitap.html

          including one of the opening page at a higher resolution here:

          http://www.haberler.com/van-da-300-yillik-tarihi-kitap-4572913-haberi/

          HT

          -------------------------

          >From <http://tinyurl.com/c7lsuef>:
          [Go there for pict]
          ========================================

          Priceless 300-year-old religious manuscript in Syriac discovered in
          eastern province

          A 300-year-old religious manuscript has been seized by the police in
          the eastern province of Van.

          The Anti-Smuggling and Organized Crime Department units of the Van
          police have detained one suspect and seized the manuscript after
          receiving a tip on the matter.

          The manuscript, which is written in Syriac on watermarked paper and
          covered with goat skin, is around 300 years old, according to experts.

          Experts confirmed that the manuscript is original and priceless after
          an initial examination.

          Further investigation of the matter is ongoing.


          No virus found in this message.
          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3162/6292 - Release Date: 05/02/13



        • Todd Godwin
          thank you Sean! I may have to come back and pick your brain a bit later on this after giving it some more thought and following up on these references. Todd
          Message 4 of 7 , May 6, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            thank you Sean!  I may have to come back and pick your brain a bit later on this after giving it some more thought and following up on these references. 
             
            Todd



             

            To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
            From: tron_honto@...
            Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 10:04:52 -0700
            Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] RE: Shi'ism, Saints, Syriacs and Transoxiana

             
            Hi Todd, 


            There is a great deal of overlap between Shi'ism and Syriac Christianity (and other religions of the Near East as well) on all fronts. Kufah, the epicenter of Shi'ism, was a giant assimilation engine for bringing non-Arabs into Islamicate culture and, of course, many of the earliest non-Arabs brought their beliefs, stories, culture, etc. with them. Really, it's just a matter of connecting the dots historically, but the lines aren't always straight. 

            There is scant evidence, however, that Syriac speaking Christians had anything to do with the nativist and restorationist movements among the non-urban populations of the eastern lands of the caliphate. These are nearly exclusively Khurram-diniyya/'Neo-Mazdakite'. (Intellectual history is another matter though. This is a good place to start: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/korramis).

            No one has done a direct comparison of Shi'ite ziyarat and Christian pilgrimage to shrines, to my knowledge, though I may be forgetting something.  Diem and Schoeller's 3 volume study, The Living and the Dead in Islam (2005) is a good place to start though:



            And Leor Halevi's excellent monograph, Muhammad's Grave (2011), contains many comparative observations on burial practices among Muslims, Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians:


            The Hajj is a massive subject that  I can't address briefly here, but you might be interested in look at the Christian physician Qusta ibn Luqa's treatise on his advised medical regime for Muslim pilgrims on Hajj edited by Gerrit Bos.

            Hope that helps. 

            Sean 


            =====================
            Sean W. Anthony
            Assistant Professor of Islamic History
            390 MacKenzie Hall
            1288 University of Oregon
            Eugene, OR 97403





            From: Todd Godwin <toddgodwin@...>
            To: "hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com" <hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sat, May 4, 2013 9:21:56 AM
            Subject: [hugoye-list] RE: Shi'ism, Saints, Syriacs and Transoxiana

             


            does anyone know of any research which may have been done on the issues of saints in early shi'ism and possible connections to 7th and 8th century syriac christianity and its politics in eastern Abbasid empire?   shia-ism moved away from Arab Muslim emphasis on the Hajj.  The last Abbasid caliph to lead the Hajj was I believe in the early 9th century.  This is tied Iranian indepedence movements from Abbasid control in Transoxiania and in Persia.  I am wondering if a connection to Syriac christianity, which is heavily focused on saints and saints' relics and holy men in its East Syriac form (where the saint may have been a charisma holder like the Shi' holy man), can be found and if so how?   Good research on early shi'ism and its saints and politics would be appreciated too, if anyone knows of any.
             
             
             
            thanks, Todd
             
              



             

            To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
            From: steven.ring@...
            Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 08:28:51 +0100
            Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] [agade] NEWS: Syriac ms confiscated

             
            It looks like an East Syrian liturgical Ms. Perhaps liturgical prayers extracted from the East Syrian Shhima for the period between the Nativity and the Epiphany (December - January), Regards, S.


            On 04/05/2013 04:02, Hidemi Takahashi wrote:
             
            Dear all,

            You'll find a few more, different, photos of the manuscript starting from here:

            http://www.habertakip.com/component/habertakip/cluster/2720332-van&apos%3Bda_300_yillik_suryanice_kitap.html

            including one of the opening page at a higher resolution here:

            http://www.haberler.com/van-da-300-yillik-tarihi-kitap-4572913-haberi/

            HT

            -------------------------

            >From <http://tinyurl.com/c7lsuef>:
            [Go there for pict]
            ========================================

            Priceless 300-year-old religious manuscript in Syriac discovered in
            eastern province

            A 300-year-old religious manuscript has been seized by the police in
            the eastern province of Van.

            The Anti-Smuggling and Organized Crime Department units of the Van
            police have detained one suspect and seized the manuscript after
            receiving a tip on the matter.

            The manuscript, which is written in Syriac on watermarked paper and
            covered with goat skin, is around 300 years old, according to experts.

            Experts confirmed that the manuscript is original and priceless after
            an initial examination.

            Further investigation of the matter is ongoing.



            No virus found in this message.
            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3162/6292 - Release Date: 05/02/13




          • Guy Trolliet
            Hi Todd, You may want to look at the work done by Mohammad-Ali Amir-Moezzi, particularly if you are French conversant, with his two books, “Le guide divin
            Message 5 of 7 , May 13, 2013
            • 0 Attachment

              Hi Todd,

              You may want to look at the work done by Mohammad-Ali Amir-Moezzi, particularly if you are French conversant, with his two books, “Le guide divin dans le shî'isme originel : Aux sources de l'ésotérisme en islam” and “Le Coran silencieux et le Coran parlant”.

              All the best,

               

              Guy

              From: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Todd Godwin
              Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 11:08 AM
              To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [hugoye-list] RE: Shi'ism, Saints, Syriacs and Transoxiana

               

               

              thank you Sean!  I may have to come back and pick your brain a bit later on this after giving it some more thought and following up on these references. 
               
              Todd


               


              To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
              From: tron_honto@...
              Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 10:04:52 -0700
              Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] RE: Shi'ism, Saints, Syriacs and Transoxiana

               

              Hi Todd, 

               

               

              There is a great deal of overlap between Shi'ism and Syriac Christianity (and other religions of the Near East as well) on all fronts. Kufah, the epicenter of Shi'ism, was a giant assimilation engine for bringing non-Arabs into Islamicate culture and, of course, many of the earliest non-Arabs brought their beliefs, stories, culture, etc. with them. Really, it's just a matter of connecting the dots historically, but the lines aren't always straight. 

               

              There is scant evidence, however, that Syriac speaking Christians had anything to do with the nativist and restorationist movements among the non-urban populations of the eastern lands of the caliphate. These are nearly exclusively Khurram-diniyya/'Neo-Mazdakite'. (Intellectual history is another matter though. This is a good place to start: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/korramis).

               

              No one has done a direct comparison of Shi'ite ziyarat and Christian pilgrimage to shrines, to my knowledge, though I may be forgetting something.  Diem and Schoeller's 3 volume study, The Living and the Dead in Islam (2005) is a good place to start though:

               

               

               

              And Leor Halevi's excellent monograph, Muhammad's Grave (2011), contains many comparative observations on burial practices among Muslims, Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians:

               

               

              The Hajj is a massive subject that  I can't address briefly here, but you might be interested in look at the Christian physician Qusta ibn Luqa's treatise on his advised medical regime for Muslim pilgrims on Hajj edited by Gerrit Bos.

               

              Hope that helps. 

               

              Sean 

               

               

              =====================

              Sean W. Anthony

              Assistant Professor of Islamic History

              390 MacKenzie Hall

              1288 University of Oregon

              Eugene, OR 97403

               

               

               

               


              From: Todd Godwin <toddgodwin@...>
              To: "hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com" <hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sat, May 4, 2013 9:21:56 AM
              Subject: [hugoye-list] RE: Shi'ism, Saints, Syriacs and Transoxiana

               

               

              does anyone know of any research which may have been done on the issues of saints in early shi'ism and possible connections to 7th and 8th century syriac christianity and its politics in eastern Abbasid empire?   shia-ism moved away from Arab Muslim emphasis on the Hajj.  The last Abbasid caliph to lead the Hajj was I believe in the early 9th century.  This is tied Iranian indepedence movements from Abbasid control in Transoxiania and in Persia.  I am wondering if a connection to Syriac christianity, which is heavily focused on saints and saints' relics and holy men in its East Syriac form (where the saint may have been a charisma holder like the Shi' holy man), can be found and if so how?   Good research on early shi'ism and its saints and politics would be appreciated too, if anyone knows of any.
               
               
               
              thanks, Todd
               
                


               


              To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
              From: steven.ring@...
              Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 08:28:51 +0100
              Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] [agade] NEWS: Syriac ms confiscated

               

              It looks like an East Syrian liturgical Ms. Perhaps liturgical prayers extracted from the East Syrian Shhima for the period between the Nativity and the Epiphany (December - January), Regards, S.

              On 04/05/2013 04:02, Hidemi Takahashi wrote:

               

              Dear all,

              You'll find a few more, different, photos of the manuscript starting from here:

              http://www.habertakip.com/component/habertakip/cluster/2720332-van&apos%3Bda_300_yillik_suryanice_kitap.html

              including one of the opening page at a higher resolution here:

              http://www.haberler.com/van-da-300-yillik-tarihi-kitap-4572913-haberi/

              HT

              -------------------------

              >From <http://tinyurl.com/c7lsuef>:
              [Go there for pict]
              ========================================

              Priceless 300-year-old religious manuscript in Syriac discovered in
              eastern province

              A 300-year-old religious manuscript has been seized by the police in
              the eastern province of Van.

              The Anti-Smuggling and Organized Crime Department units of the Van
              police have detained one suspect and seized the manuscript after
              receiving a tip on the matter.

              The manuscript, which is written in Syriac on watermarked paper and
              covered with goat skin, is around 300 years old, according to experts.

              Experts confirmed that the manuscript is original and priceless after
              an initial examination.

              Further investigation of the matter is ongoing.


              No virus found in this message.
              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3162/6292 - Release Date: 05/02/13

               

               

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