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RE: [hugoye-list] Dadisho of Qatar/ascetics/mdbarnoutha

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  • Todd Godwin
    thanks Mary, and thanks to all! To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com From: m.hansbury@att.net Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 18:29:37 -0700 Subject: Re: [hugoye-list]
    Message 1 of 35 , Oct 1, 2012

      thanks Mary, and thanks to all! 



      To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
      From: m.hansbury@...
      Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 18:29:37 -0700
      Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] Dadisho of Qatar/ascetics/mdbarnoutha

       

      Todd,
         Philoxenus uses mdabranutha in a variety of ways including monastic. David Michelson's diss. on Philoxenus has a chapter on it (Princeton 2007). Adam Becker's Fear of God shows the intersection of divine pedagogy with monastic tradition and discusses Theodore of Mopsuestia. John the Solitary, Isaac the Syrian I, II, III, and John of Dalyatha all have it.
                                                             Mary Hansbury 


      From: Todd Godwin <toddgodwin@...>
      To: "hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com" <hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Fri, September 28, 2012 5:57:13 PM
      Subject: RE: [hugoye-list] Dadisho of Qatar/ascetics/mdbarnoutha

       


      would anyone have any thoughts about this term?:


      ܡܕܪܒܢܘܬܐ

      it appears on the Church of the East's Xi'an monument.  It has puzzled several commentators, and has been equated with the Greek word oikonomia.  I have run across the suggestion that it comes out of the monastic context and may be found in Dadisho of Qatar, where it may have a meaning of "guidance" or "stewardship" of "way of life (i.e. monastic way).   I have been looking through Dadisho but cannot find it, but am still looking.

      If anyone is familiar with the monastic literature and has worked through them in Syriac, I'd appreciate any thoughts or clues as to how to nail this down more, and find out how it worked in monastic thought, if that is indeed where it comes from.

      this is what the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon says about it:

       
      mdbrnw, mdbrnwtʾ (mḏabbrānū, mḏabbrānūṯā) n.f. administration


        1 administration CPA, Syr. --(a) institution Syr. --(b) authority Syr. (b.1) divine guidance, governance Syr.
        2 mode of life Syr, LJLA. --(a) economy Syr.
        3 understanding CPA.    LS2: 712[140]. Jastrow: 731. J. Payne-Smith: 252.


      thanks!





      To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
      From: dickens@...
      Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:54:18 -0600
      Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] Orthodoxy and heresy

       
      Thanks to all those who replied to this question. Much appreciated!

      Mark Dickens


      On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Stephen Shoemaker <sshoemak@...> wrote:
       

      Mark:

       

      I believe that the following item is very relevant to your question:

       

      Alain Le Boulluec, La notion d'heresie dans la litterature grecque IIe-IIe siecles, Tome I: De Justin a Irenee, Tome II: Clement d'Alexandrie et Origene. Etudes Augustiniennes, Paris, 1985. 662 pp.

       

      All the best,

       

      Stephen

       

      Stephen J. Shoemaker

      Professor, Dept. of Religious Studies

      University of Oregon, Eugene OR  97403-1294

      (541) 346-4998; FAX (541) 346-4118

      www.uoregon.edu/~sshoemak/

       

      From: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Dickens
      Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 4:36 PM
      To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com


      Subject: [hugoye-list] Orthodoxy and heresy

       

       

      Hello,

      This is slightly off-topic, but I'm wondering ! if anyone on the list can tell me when the earliest uses of the terms "orthodox/orthodoxy" and "heretic/heresy" are in Christian literature, whether in Greek, Latin, Syriac, Armenian, Coptic or any other language used by early Christians. I understand that Irenaeus used Gr. hairesis to refer to the Gnostics, but would like to get more references to the early use and subsequent development of these two terms. Of course, any Syriac examples would be of especial interest.


      Thanks,
      Mark Dickens

      --
      Mark Dickens, MPhil, PhD (Cantab)
      dickens@...

      Killam Post-Doctoral Fellow
      Religious Studies Program

      Office of Interdisciplinary Studies
      1-17 Humanities Centre
      University of Alberta
      Edmonton, Alberta T6G 2E5
      Canada





      --
      Mark Dickens, MPhil, PhD (Cantab)
      dickens@...

      Killam Post-Doctoral Fellow
      Religious Studies Program

      Office of Interdisciplinary Studies
      1-17 Humanities Centre
      University of Alberta
      Edmonton, Alberta T6G 2E5
      Canada


    • Dominique Gonnet
      Just for information : in D. Gonnet et A. Schmidt, Les Pères grecs dans la tradition syriaque , (Series ÉTUDES SYRIAQUES #4), Geuthner, ed., Paris, 2007, p.
      Message 35 of 35 , Oct 23, 2012
        Message
        Just for information : in D. Gonnet et A. Schmidt, "Les Pères grecs dans la tradition syriaque", (Series ÉTUDES SYRIAQUES #4), Geuthner, ed., Paris, 2007, p. 195-210, I collected the authors and titles of the translations of Greek Fathers in Syriac with their CPG numbers. Here is the presentation of this listing :
        Cette liste a été compilée par Dominique Gonnet d’après l’ordre et les volumes de la CPG (Clavis Patrum Graecorum : Geerard 1974, Geerard 1983, Geerard 1979, Geerard-Noret 1998). Différentes références à des manuscrits ou à des versions éditées plus récemment ont été ajoutées par lui sur les indications de Sebastian Brock.

        Sont indiquées en gras les œuvres dont on n’a ni l’original grec, ni l’intégralité dans une autre version. Les œuvres inédites ou pour lesquelles la Clavis ne donne qu’une référence bibliographique sont en italique. « vers. » indique l’existence d’une seule version, et « verss. » de plusieurs ; de même « frg. » l’existence d’un fragment, « frgg. » de plusieurs. « cit. » indique une transmission indirecte par une citation chez l’auteur indiqué.

         

        it is founded on the following volumes of Clavis Patrum Graecorum which are necessary to have details on each reference:

        Geerard 1974 : Maurice Geerard, Clavis Patrum Graecorum t. II, Ab Athanasio ad Chrysostomum, Turnhout (Corpus Christianorum).

        Geerard 1979 : Maurice Geerard, Clavis Patrum Graecorum, t. III, A Cyrillo Alexandrino ad Iohannem Damascenum, Turnhout (Corpus Christianorum).

        Geerard 1983 : Maurice Geerard, Clav. Patr. Gr…, t. I, Patres antenicaeni, Turnh. (C. Chr.).

        Geerard-Noret 1998 : Maurice Geerard – Jacques Noret, Supplementum, Turnh. (C. Chr.).

        Noret 2003 : Jacques Noret, Addenda volumini III, Turnhout (Corpus Christianorum).

         

        I am interested by any correction or complement you find.

         

        You find the list of ÉTUDES SYRIAQUES volumes here :

        http://www.etudessyriaques.org/public.php  

         

        With my best wishes for the projet of a Clavis Syriaca !

        Dominique Gonnet, s.j. +33 6 15 11 12 36
        HiSoMA-Sources Chrétiennes
        22 rue Sala, F-69002 LYON
        Tel.: +33 4 72 77 73 53 (laisser sonner)
        http://www.sources-chretiennes.mom.fr/index.php?pageid=presentation_english
        http://www.biblindex.mom.fr/index.php?lang=en
        http://biblindex-en.hypotheses.org/?lang=en_GB
        http://www.etudessyriaques.org
        http://www.jesuites.com
         

        -----Message d'origine-----
        De : hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com] De la part de TODA Satoshi
        Envoyé : mardi 23 octobre 2012 16:21
        À : hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
        Objet : RE: [hugoye-list] Clavis Syriaca

         

        Although I do not pretend to be a Syriacist, I wonder if it is not necessary for those interested to reconsider what is meant by "Clavis Syriaca".

        I understand that the purpose of Clavis Patrum Graecorum is precisely to present each work, which was originally written in Greek, together with its versions in various languages of the Christian Orient (including Syriac), and it works, because it is basically from Greek that various versions flow into various languages. And in this respect, I think Syriac does not have the same position as Greek.

        On the other hand, Bibliotheca Hagiographica Syriaca, as it was conceived by Father Ugo Zanetti (I do not know the situation how it is currently continued), is a completely understandable project, because it is simply a more specialized update of (a part of) Bibliotheca Hagiographica Orientalis, which in its turn is a supplement to the famous Bibliotheca Hagiographica Graeca which is especially associated with the name of Father Francois Halkin. The same remark applies to Bibliotheca Hagiographica Aethiopica which was also conceived by Father Zanetti, and the current situation of whch I do not know.

        One of the colleagues suggested that "A numbering system similar to the CPG and CPL is of great value"; however, if a Syriac work happens to be mentioned in CPG, I would strongly recommend to stick to using the SAME number used in CPG, and not to multiply SIMILAR numbering systems. A Clavis Syriaca, if it is to be conceived after the model of CPG, should be limited to the Syriac works which are NOT mentioned in CPG, and, furthermore, which are transmitted not only in Syriac, but also in other languages of the Christian Orient. And I very much hope that, if such a reference work should be conceived, it uses numbers which are not used in CPG and which nevertheless stand among the numbers of CPG. What I mean is this: if a Syriac work which is, correctly or falsely, attributed to Ephrem and which is not attested in Greek (thus which is not mentioned in CPG) is in question, it should receive a number which stands between 3900-4185; and if a Syriac work
        which is to be dated to 5th century or later is in question, it should receive a number which stands between 5200-6800 (more precisely, between 6200-6800). Otherwise, I would prefer to see simply an updated Syriac bibliography.

        Although it is doubtless well known among the list members, I should add that the purpose of Bibliotheca Hagiographica Graeca, for example, is to provide the reader with various incipits (and desinits) of the same (or similar) work(s); I surmise that the purpose of BHS is the same. And this is not the purpose of CPG; for Greek works, we have, for example, Initia patrum graecorum. If the said Clavis Syriaca intends to provide various incipits, it should not be conceived after the model of CPG.

        Best regards,
        TODA Satoshi (Mr.; Toda is my family name)

        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Mark, Kristian, Cornelia, et al.
        >
        >  
        >
        > I would like to second Cornelia’s observations. As a historian who is
        not a Syriac specialist, but who works widely in the patristic world, I would like to plead the following points:
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        1)      the importance of such a project especially for the non-specialists – they even more than Syriac scholars would benefit from a Clavis Syriaca, and it would assist us in gaining a more accurate knowledge of the arcana of the field, and help keep us from mistaken identificaitons
        >
        > 2)      A numbering system similar to the CPG
        and CPL is of great value in distinguishing works with similar subject matter and can be designed to allow for internal expansion;
        >
        >
        3)      a Clavis can benefit hugely from an online presentation, where new discoveries, changes in attribution and dating, and corrections and additions can be made quickly, without waiting a decade or two for a new edition or printing.
        >
        >
        4)      it needs to be furthered before one of the publishing ventures takes up the project and charges large amounts of money for access to the database
        >
        >  
        >
        > For all these
        reasons, I urge that the work that many of you are doing be pushed into a Clavis Syriaca 1.0 very soon, so everyone else can both benefit and contribute.
        >
        >  
        >
        > Glen L. Thompson
        >
        >
         
        >
        >
        >
        > From:
        href="mailto:hugoye-list%40yahoogroups.com">hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornelia Horn
        > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 6:57 PM
        >
        To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com; Cornelia Horn
        > Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] Clavis Syriaca
        >
        >
         
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Mark,
        Kristian, and other interested parties,
        >  
        > I find the recent
        discussion regarding developing a Clavis Syriaca very encouraging. I do not find it helpful rhetorically to refer to the expertise of anonymous "senior scholars" though. What is needed is expertise to be contributed to the discussion, and that can come from anyone who has it, also from anyone who is in the process of acquiring it. In management, the most successful projects or companies are those that follow an integrated management model, in which top-down thinking (which on its own fails) is integrated with bottom-up thinking (which on its own fails as well).
        > Other clavis
        projects, for example Geerard's Clavis apocryphorum Novi Testamenti, were carried out without full access to or knowledge of all the possible manuscript resources for individual texts and without full knowledge of all the apocryphal works yet to be discovered. That's the nature of discovery, that it carries with it the potential to modify, reshape, or even overthrow what is already known. Personally, I am excited when I see such new discoveries happen that challenge established paradigms. And new tools that require modifying already existing ones do get created. Alain Desreumaux's work-in-progress of compiling his clavis of Syriac apocrypha here would be a case in point. Once it is completed, but already while it is in progress and made accessible as a tool for those who work on the subject matter, is a necessary complement for anyone working with Geerard's. This does not diminish the value of Geerard's work and does not suggest
        that Geerard should have delayed his work.
        > It seems pretty clear that the
        goal for a project is a given: at least a subset of scholars want and need a "Clavis Syriaca." Once it is established, everyone is going to use it. What needs to be figured out is how that goal can be achieved, and with what steps, and who wants to contribute to it.
        > If there are people involved who
        have programming experience, it might be very worthwhile to establish an electronic platform for such a project to begin with. If that platform is easily accessible for everyone who wishes to consult it, easily expandable for new discoveries to be recorded, and easily accessible for those who can and wish to contribute to the project, all the better.
        >  
        > With best wishes,
        > Cornelia
        > On
        Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 6:23 PM, Mark Glen Bilby <mgb8n@...> wrote:
        >
         
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Kristian,
        >
        >
         
        >
        > Thank you for summing up current developments toward a
        Clavis Syriaca. They are all very encouraging. While I am not in a position of expertise that allows me to evaluate the number of works and manuscripts that are yet to be catalogued, it seems to me that it would be possible even now for a small group of senior scholars to establish the initial, broad parameters of a Clavis Syriaca numbering system. For example, I presume that senior scholars already know whether the broadest organization will require a 4 digit identifier (with room for nearly 10,000 different texts) or a 5 digit identifier (with room for 100,000 texts), and that they already have rough estimates for the total number of Syriac works by the “big authors” you mention. My father is a programmer and reminds me that databases always begin with some sort of unique identifier. As long as there is plenty of room to add and expand those identifiers, such a system can quickly start to
        serve many useful functions, including the option of a search parameter on e-Ktobe, HMML, etc. There are probably a few hundred works that are very frequently referenced already, and those could be candidates for a first batch of identifiers. I seem to recall that BYU’s Syriac work has benefited considerably from the input of programmers regarding digitization and ocr projects. Have you tossed around the idea of a Clavis Syriaca with them?
        >
        >  
        >
        > Incidentally,
        I am unfamiliar with the reference sources for the “big authors” you mention, Ephrem, Isaac(s), Narsai, and others. Would you be so kind as to point me to the books or articles to which you are referring?
        >
        >  
        >
        > With best wishes,
        >
        >  
        >
        > Mark
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        > From:
        href="mailto:hugoye-list%40yahoogroups.com">hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kristian Heal
        > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 12:05 PM
        >
        To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
        >
        Subject: RE: [hugoye-list] Clavis Syriaca
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Mark,
        >
        >
         
        >
        > There seems to be a sense among senior scholars that
        preparing a Syriac Clavis project would be premature since there are still far too many texts languishing in the manuscripts, and far too many manuscripts that we don’t have access to. This latter problem is being addressed in large part by the efforts of HMML, their partner libraries and catalogers, whose work cannot be praised too highly. The Syriac Reference Portal project and the e-Ktobe database are destined to be fundamental resources for the field and will doubtless help narrow the gap between what the manuscripts record and what is currently in Baumstark, taking us one step closer to being able to prepare a comprehensive clavis. In fact, although these projects have other aims, they will, in effect, function as a clavis to Syriac literature.
        >
        >
         
        >
        > Several of the big authors have received their own
        clavis (Ephrem, Isaac(s), Narsai, Jacob, Philoxenus, Jacob of Edessa, Barhebraeus, etc), and such projects are great steps forward and are certainly to be encouraged. A wonderful recent development is the continuation of the long hoped for Bibliotheca Hagiographica Syriaca by Jeanne-Nicole Saint-Laurent under the auspices of the Syriac Reference Portal project. This project was started years ago by Ugo Zanetti, and promises to be another hugely important resource.
        >
        >  
        >
        > My best,
        >
        >
         
        >
        > Kristian
        > _________________________
        >
        >  
        >
        > Dr. Kristian S. Heal
        >
        > Center
        for the Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts
        >
        > Website:
        href="http://cpart.byu.edu">http://cpart.byu.edu
        >
        >
         
        >
        >
        >
        > From:
        href="mailto:hugoye-list%40yahoogroups.com">hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Bilby
        > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 2:49 PM
        >
        To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
        >
        Subject: [hugoye-list] Clavis Syriaca
        >
        >  
        >
        >
         
        >
        >
        >
        > I'm wondering if there a Clavis
        Syriaca (or Clavis Patrum Syriacorum) available or being planned--something akin to the Clavis Patrum Graecorum, Clavis Patrum Latinorum, and Clavis Patrum Copticorum (currently in the works).
        >
        > Mark
        >
         
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Cornelia Horn, PhD, Dr. habil.
        >  
        >
         
        > Books I enjoy and promote:
        > "Naira Creswick and the Tablet
        of Heavenly Secrets" by Hexer Bontrip
        >
        href="https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/148157">https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/148157
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > No virus found in
        this message.
        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > Version: 2013.0.2741
        / Virus Database: 2616/5848 - Release Date: 10/22/12
        >

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