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Re: [hugoye-list] Digest Number 1761

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    Grigory, I concur with Michelle that these may be incantations or compounds.  I took a look at BDAG to see if I could find anything resembling these words or
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 1 9:45 AM

      I concur with Michelle that these may be incantations or compounds.  I took a look at BDAG to see if I could find anything resembling these words or shed any useful light on their constituent parts.  Not surprisingly, they don't show up there.

      1. You may have success if you post this as an Ancient Greek to English translation question on proz.com.

      2. I'm wondering if some sort of transliteration is involved:

      All three of these terms are inflected as genitive plural nouns.  (That might be significant, as well.  It suggests that these are not proper names, but I believe that use of the genitive is probably consistent with Greek curses/incantations: invoking magic "by the power of [genitive object].  I suspect that Christopher Faraone would be a good author to consult.  In fact, he might even respond to you personally if you find his contact info and e-mail him.)

      If you strip away the genitive endings, you get:

      αθεδελατων > [α]θεδελα[των] > αΘεΔεΛα (In other words, I'm wondering if the author had a Semitc root TDL in mind, once you remove pre-formative aleph and the genitive ending.  Tau is not strictly part of the genitive paradigm, but it could have been added paragogically for phonetic reasons.

      > τομερεμελατων > The same basic process as before leaves us with MRL or MRM(L) here.
      I'm wondering if the author was reciting an incantation here based on MRMH, which HALOT lists as dealing with "fraud, deceit, evil scales, etc."  cf. Syriac "MaRMiTa"
      Frankly, I find this solution unsatisfying, intellectually.  I'm really grasping to do some creative etymology.  However, it's not outside the realm of possibility that, as Michelle suggests, the author was making up words on his own.  I would want to know if the text you are translating - the text to which this leaf was amended - has any terms or ideas like "deceit" or "false weights" to suggest this root to the author.

      > τελεδαργων > LDR(G) > or, τελε + δαργ[ος/η].  Neither of these suggestions is productive in terms of finding lexical entries.

      Anyway, my work in the Septuagint was taught me not to discount creative transliteration when other explanations fail, so I thought I would throw out some highly speculative ideas.  But I do strongly suggest that you post your question to proz.com.

      Michelle, I think the translators at proz.com may also be able to tell you if there are good lexical and grammatical reference works out there for Medieval Greek. 



      --- On Tue, 3/1/11, hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com <hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      From: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com <hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [hugoye-list] Digest Number 1761
      To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 9:01 AM

      Hugoye-List: Syriac Studies Group

      Messages In This Digest (2 Messages)

      Re: help with strange words From: Gregory Kessel
      Re: St. Bartholomew in Syriac literature From: Yury Arzhanov



      Re: help with strange words

      Posted by: "Gregory Kessel" gregorykessel@...   gregorykessel

      Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:50 am (PST)

      Dear Michele,

      thank you very much for both suggestions. I will check both of them.

      Those three words appear not in a text but on a flyleaf independently from the text.


      --- On Mon, 2/28/11, ibn_rushd2 <ibn_rushd2@yahoo. ca> wrote:

      From: ibn_rushd2 <ibn_rushd2@yahoo. ca>
      Subject: [hugoye-list] Re: help with strange words
      To: hugoye-list@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Monday, February 28, 2011, 8:00 AM


      Aside from the obvious rhyming, I think they might be magical incantations, much like abracadabra. Just a bunch of syllables strung together that sound like you know what you're doing.

      The other thing you might consider is that they are joined-up words, like apostrophes in English and French: fast 'n' furious, j'n'ai pas (in the more modern writings), p'tit punch. If that is the case then the last word looks like: end of the lazy, or end of the silver/shiny. "melaton" seems like "melitta" which is a girl's name in the Athenaze grammar books, as well as meaning bee.

      Not knowing the context of your text, it's hard to tell. Plus I don't know medieval Greek, even through years of trying to find some grammar and dictionary. There are many histories of Greek which boil down to generic discussions, and not very useful information.

      Hope this helps!

      Michelle Venn

      --- In hugoye-list@ yahoogroups. com, Gregory Kessel <gregorykessel@ ...> wrote:


      > Dear group members,


      > in one East Syriac (approx. end of the 7th c.) manuscript I am currently working with, occur three words written in Greek (by a hand of the same time) on a flyleaf. Apparently, neither of them is a real Greek word. I will appreciate deeply any suggestion about their origin and meaning:



      > τομερεμελατων

      > τελεδαργων


      > With best wishes

      > Grigory



      Re: St. Bartholomew in Syriac literature

      Posted by: "Yury Arzhanov" yrarzhanov@...

      Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:38 am (PST)

      Dear Richard,

      Apostle Bartolomew is mentioned in the "Book of the Holy Hierotheos", a
      mystical text written in Syriac at the beginning of the 6th century in
      Palestine, probably by Stephen Bar Sudaili. In the 2nd memra of the Book,
      ch. 21, comes a quotation from the "divine Bartolomew", where the Cross is
      compared with the doors of the Temple.

      Best wishes,

      Yury Arzhanov
      University of Bochum, Germany
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