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Church of Raven

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  • Basil Lourie
    Dear Colleagues, I am reposting here a query of mine on another list (posted sometimes ago with no success). The reason to post it here is that I have a strong
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 3, 2000
      Dear Colleagues,

      I am reposting here a query of mine on another list (posted sometimes ago
      with no success). The reason to post it here is that I have a strong feeling
      (based on some other data) that the legend in question is of Syrian origin,
      and so, I am wondering if there is a source in Syriac. My question is the
      following:

      There are Muslim traditions (in Arabic and Turkish, afaik) about the
      Church of Raven near Constantinople. Sometimes on the miniatures this
      raven has a branch of olive (or something like this) in his beak.
      However, my most recent references to the publications/studies are of
      the late 19th cent. Is there anything more fresh? I am interesting in
      two things: 1. Church of Raven itself, and 2. raven with a branch (or
      branches) having some magical meaning.

      Thanks in advance.

      Basil Lourie
      revue _Xristianskij Vostok_
      St. Petersburg, Russia
    • Linda WHeatley Irving
      Dear Dr. Lourie, Can you say more about this Church of the Raven? Is it actually in C ple? What is it called, in Arabic & Turkish? I am studying Byz.
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 7, 2001
        Dear Dr. Lourie,
        Can you say more about this Church of the Raven? Is it actually in C'ple?
        What is it called, in Arabic & Turkish? I am studying Byz. architectural
        history at University of Illinois, and none of us have heard of this one!
        Best wishes,
        Linda Wheatley-Irving


        On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Basil Lourie wrote:

        > Dear Colleagues,
        >
        > I am reposting here a query of mine on another list (posted sometimes ago
        > with no success). The reason to post it here is that I have a strong feeling
        > (based on some other data) that the legend in question is of Syrian origin,
        > and so, I am wondering if there is a source in Syriac. My question is the
        > following:
        >
        > There are Muslim traditions (in Arabic and Turkish, afaik) about the
        > Church of Raven near Constantinople. Sometimes on the miniatures this
        > raven has a branch of olive (or something like this) in his beak.
        > However, my most recent references to the publications/studies are of
        > the late 19th cent. Is there anything more fresh? I am interesting in
        > two things: 1. Church of Raven itself, and 2. raven with a branch (or
        > branches) having some magical meaning.
        >
        > Thanks in advance.
        >
        > Basil Lourie
        > revue _Xristianskij Vostok_
        > St. Petersburg, Russia
        >
        >
        >
        > -----
        >
        > Syriac Computing Institute [http://syrcom.cua.edu]
        >
        > Hugoye Journal [http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye]
        >
        >
      • Basil Lourie
        Dear Dr Wheatley-Irving, The Church of Raven in C/ple does exist, but rather in the imagination of the mediaeval Muslim peoples than in the mere reality. There
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 7, 2001
          Dear Dr Wheatley-Irving,

          The Church of Raven in C/ple does exist, but rather in the imagination of
          the mediaeval Muslim peoples than in the mere reality. There are some
          beautiful miniatures where everybody can see it. My main reference is:

          В. Д. Смирнов,Турецкия легенды о Святой Софии и о других византийских
          древностях (СПб., 1898), or, in translit.: V.D. Smirnov, Turetskija legendy
          o Svjatoj Sofii i o drugix vizantijskix drevnostjax (St. Petersburg, 1898);
          title's translation: The Turkish legends about St. Sophia (Church) and other
          Byzantine antiquities. Here, the earlier bibliography, esp. in Arabic and
          Turkish, is available.

          The problem is that such legends must have some sense, and so, they *are*
          historical sources, while of a very specific nature. They are closer to the
          hagiographical legends on the holy places than to the folklore.

          I have studied a text in Slavonic (called by the editors "Legend of
          Thessalonica") which is, acc. to my observations (supported by S.P. Brock
          and now accepted by some Slavic scholars), was translated directly from
          Syriac. Here, there is a key scene when a raven is acting near a church,
          while it is not in C/ple, but in Thessalonica. In both cases, in my legend
          and in the "Church of Raven", the raven disposes some supernatural power...
          My legend is heavily depending on the Syrian apocalyptics of the early
          Islamic time, while I know no such raven in any of the apocalyptic texts
          (not only in Syriac) known to me.

          I am very interested in any considerations.

          Best,
          Basil Lourie
          Russia

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Linda WHeatley Irving" <linda@...>
          To: <hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 2:49 AM
          Subject: Re: [hugoye-l] Church of Raven


          > Dear Dr. Lourie,
          > Can you say more about this Church of the Raven? Is it actually in C'ple?
          > What is it called, in Arabic & Turkish? I am studying Byz. architectural
          > history at University of Illinois, and none of us have heard of this one!
          > Best wishes,
          > Linda Wheatley-Irving
        • Linda WHeatley Irving
          Dear Dr. Lourie, I will look around for that book you mentioned on the weekend. Do you remember offhand what Arabic and Turkish/Ottoman words are being used
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 7, 2001
            Dear Dr. Lourie,
            I will look around for that book you mentioned on the weekend.
            Do you remember offhand what Arabic and Turkish/Ottoman words are
            being used for "crow" here?
            There is a byz. architecture student from Thessalonika showing up in a
            couple of weeks here; I will question him on this issue.
            Best,
            Linda Wheatley-Irving
          • James E. Lindsay
            unsubscribe
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 8, 2001
              unsubscribe

              Linda WHeatley Irving wrote:
              >
              > Dear Dr. Lourie,
              > Can you say more about this Church of the Raven? Is it actually in C'ple?
              > What is it called, in Arabic & Turkish? I am studying Byz. architectural
              > history at University of Illinois, and none of us have heard of this one!
              > Best wishes,
              > Linda Wheatley-Irving
              >
              > On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Basil Lourie wrote:
              >
              > > Dear Colleagues,
              > >
              > > I am reposting here a query of mine on another list (posted sometimes ago
              > > with no success). The reason to post it here is that I have a strong feeling
              > > (based on some other data) that the legend in question is of Syrian origin,
              > > and so, I am wondering if there is a source in Syriac. My question is the
              > > following:
              > >
              > > There are Muslim traditions (in Arabic and Turkish, afaik) about the
              > > Church of Raven near Constantinople. Sometimes on the miniatures this
              > > raven has a branch of olive (or something like this) in his beak.
              > > However, my most recent references to the publications/studies are of
              > > the late 19th cent. Is there anything more fresh? I am interesting in
              > > two things: 1. Church of Raven itself, and 2. raven with a branch (or
              > > branches) having some magical meaning.
              > >
              > > Thanks in advance.
              > >
              > > Basil Lourie
              > > revue _Xristianskij Vostok_
              > > St. Petersburg, Russia
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > -----
              > >
              > > Syriac Computing Institute [http://syrcom.cua.edu]
              > >
              > > Hugoye Journal [http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye]
              > >
              > >
              >
              > -----
              >
              > Syriac Computing Institute [http://syrcom.cua.edu]
              >
              > Hugoye Journal [http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye]
            • Basil Lourie
              Dear Dr Wheatley-Irving, ... Unfortunately, no... I look forward to hear from you. Basil Lourié Russia
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 8, 2001
                Dear Dr Wheatley-Irving,

                > Do you remember offhand what Arabic and Turkish/Ottoman words are
                > being used for "crow" here?

                Unfortunately, no... I look forward to hear from you.

                Basil Lourié
                Russia
              • Linda WHeatley Irving
                Dear Dr. Lourie, I looked for the V. D. Smirnov title on WorldCat but couldn t find anything under author, title or keyword searches. This makes me think that
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 14, 2001
                  Dear Dr. Lourie,

                  I looked for the V. D. Smirnov title on WorldCat but couldn't find
                  anything under author, title or keyword searches. This makes me think
                  that the work is probably a volume in a monographic series, and needs to
                  be searched by series title and volume number. If this is the case, could
                  you please supply that information? You have got us all interested in the
                  book! Leonid Beliaev is coming to town on Monday and could help us with
                  the Russian, too.

                  Best wishes,

                  Linda Wheatley-Irving


                  On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Basil Lourie wrote:

                  > Dear Dr Wheatley-Irving,
                  >
                  > The Church of Raven in C/ple does exist, but rather in the imagination of
                  > the mediaeval Muslim peoples than in the mere reality. There are some
                  > beautiful miniatures where everybody can see it. My main reference is:
                  >
                  > В. Д. Смирнов,Турецкия легенды о Святой Софии и о других византийских
                  > древностях (СПб., 1898), or, in translit.: V.D. Smirnov, Turetskija legendy
                  > o Svjatoj Sofii i o drugix vizantijskix drevnostjax (St. Petersburg, 1898);
                  > title's translation: The Turkish legends about St. Sophia (Church) and other
                  > Byzantine antiquities. Here, the earlier bibliography, esp. in Arabic and
                  > Turkish, is available.
                  >
                  > The problem is that such legends must have some sense, and so, they *are*
                  > historical sources, while of a very specific nature. They are closer to the
                  > hagiographical legends on the holy places than to the folklore.
                  >
                  > I have studied a text in Slavonic (called by the editors "Legend of
                  > Thessalonica") which is, acc. to my observations (supported by S.P. Brock
                  > and now accepted by some Slavic scholars), was translated directly from
                  > Syriac. Here, there is a key scene when a raven is acting near a church,
                  > while it is not in C/ple, but in Thessalonica. In both cases, in my legend
                  > and in the "Church of Raven", the raven disposes some supernatural power...
                  > My legend is heavily depending on the Syrian apocalyptics of the early
                  > Islamic time, while I know no such raven in any of the apocalyptic texts
                  > (not only in Syriac) known to me.
                  >
                  > I am very interested in any considerations.
                  >
                  > Best,
                  > Basil Lourie
                  > Russia
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Linda WHeatley Irving" <linda@...>
                  > To: <hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 2:49 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [hugoye-l] Church of Raven
                  >
                  >
                  > > Dear Dr. Lourie,
                  > > Can you say more about this Church of the Raven? Is it actually in C'ple?
                  > > What is it called, in Arabic & Turkish? I am studying Byz. architectural
                  > > history at University of Illinois, and none of us have heard of this one!
                  > > Best wishes,
                  > > Linda Wheatley-Irving
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----
                  >
                  > Syriac Computing Institute [http://syrcom.cua.edu]
                  >
                  > Hugoye Journal [http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye]
                  >
                  >
                • Basil Lourie
                  Dear Dr. Wheatley-Irving, The problem is that there is no good Russian library in America, and even in the WorldCat the pre-revolutionary Russian titles are
                  Message 8 of 8 , Feb 15, 2001
                    Dear Dr. Wheatley-Irving,

                    The problem is that there is no good Russian library in America, and even in
                    the WorldCat the pre-revolutionary Russian titles are not represented very
                    good. This book is a rather luxurious publication of large format with no
                    serial affiliation at all. It may be available in the USA in the Dumbarton
                    Oaks library (as well as in several European libraries, not to say about
                    that of the Helsinki University where there are obligatory copies of all the
                    Russian books since the early 19th cent. up to about 1917). If it is
                    unavailable in the USA, I will copy and send to everybody interested
                    (preferably as scanned files, while the photocopy is also possible) the
                    relevant pages.

                    Yours,
                    Basil Lourie
                    St. Petersburg
                    Russia


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Linda WHeatley Irving" <linda@...>
                    To: <hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:41 AM
                    Subject: Re: [hugoye-l] Church of Raven


                    > Dear Dr. Lourie,
                    >
                    > I looked for the V. D. Smirnov title on WorldCat but couldn't find
                    > anything under author, title or keyword searches. This makes me think
                    > that the work is probably a volume in a monographic series, and needs to
                    > be searched by series title and volume number. If this is the case, could
                    > you please supply that information? You have got us all interested in the
                    > book! Leonid Beliaev is coming to town on Monday and could help us with
                    > the Russian, too.
                    >
                    > Best wishes,
                    >
                    > Linda Wheatley-Irving
                    .
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