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nasorayya

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  • sarban
    Nasorayya is given as a transliteration of a term used for initiates in the Syriac Mandean literature. (I m aware that the term has more than one meaning in
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 1, 2004
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      Nasorayya is given as a transliteration of a term used for initiates in the Syriac Mandean literature. (I'm aware that the term has more than one meaning in Mandaean literature).
       
      Could someone please tell me the precise Syriac spelling of Nasorayya including if possible vocalization ?
       
      I'm particularly interested in whether or not the 'o' is long or short.
       
      Andrew Criddle
    • Jack Kilmon
      ... From: sarban To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 7:55 AM Subject: [hugoye-list] nasorayya Nasorayya is given as a
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 1, 2004
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: sarban
        Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 7:55 AM
        Subject: [hugoye-list] nasorayya

        Nasorayya is given as a transliteration of a term used for initiates in the Syriac Mandean literature. (I'm aware that the term has more than one meaning in Mandaean literature).
         
        Could someone please tell me the precise Syriac spelling of Nasorayya including if possible vocalization ?
         
        I'm particularly interested in whether or not the 'o' is long or short.
         
        Andrew Criddle
         
        I am not sure about Syriac and the tradition influence on the Syriac but the Aramaic has roots in Isaiah 11:1:
         
        hrpy wy$r$m rcnw y$y (zgm r+h )cyw
         
        If you do not have the SHebrew font, the above says, phonetically:
         
        wa'yatsah choter mygeza yeeshay weNETSER meeshereshyaw yeeparah
         
        And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stump of Jesse, and a BRANCH shall grow out of his roots.
         
        "Branch" is NETZER and the followers of Y'shua were called  <Aram>NETZERAYA or "BRANCHERS" which Matthew transliterated phonetically to Greek as Nazoraios (Nazarenes).  The proof of this, IMO, is the close juxtaposition of YEESHAY "Jesse" with NETZER and that Epiphanius (Panarion 29 1, 3-9; 4, 9) reports that the followers of Y'shua were also called IESSAIOI or "Jesseans."
         
        shlomo
         
        Jack
      • Gabriel Rabo
        Shlomo I think the vocalization Nasorayya is not correct. It should be Nosroye (or Eastsyr.: Nasraye). This name derives from syriac name Nosrath
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 2, 2004
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          Shlomo
           
          I think the vocalization "Nasorayya" is not correct. It should be Nosroye (or Eastsyr.: Nasraye). This name derives from syriac name Nosrath (=Nazareth). It means Nazarean. The root is n-s-r (nsar =to sing). It will be used by arabic-speaking "Moslems" in Tur Abdin for (Syrian) Christians too.
           
          Regards
          Gabriel Rabo
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 10:30 PM
          Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] nasorayya

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: sarban
          Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 7:55 AM
          Subject: [hugoye-list] nasorayya

          Nasorayya is given as a transliteration of a term used for initiates in the Syriac Mandean literature. (I'm aware that the term has more than one meaning in Mandaean literature).
           
          Could someone please tell me the precise Syriac spelling of Nasorayya including if possible vocalization ?
           
          I'm particularly interested in whether or not the 'o' is long or short.
           
          Andrew Criddle
           
          I am not sure about Syriac and the tradition influence on the Syriac but the Aramaic has roots in Isaiah 11:1:
           
          hrpy wy$r$m rcnw y$y (zgm r+h )cyw
           
          If you do not have the SHebrew font, the above says, phonetically:
           
          wa'yatsah choter mygeza yeeshay weNETSER meeshereshyaw yeeparah
           
          And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stump of Jesse, and a BRANCH shall grow out of his roots.
           
          "Branch" is NETZER and the followers of Y'shua were called  <Aram>NETZERAYA or "BRANCHERS" which Matthew transliterated phonetically to Greek as Nazoraios (Nazarenes).  The proof of this, IMO, is the close juxtaposition of YEESHAY "Jesse" with NETZER and that Epiphanius (Panarion 29 1, 3-9; 4, 9) reports that the followers of Y'shua were also called IESSAIOI or "Jesseans."
           
          shlomo
           
          Jac
        • sarban
          ... From: Jack Kilmon To: hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] nasorayya ... From: sarban To:
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 2, 2004
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            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 9:30 PM
            Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] nasorayya

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: sarban
            Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 7:55 AM
            Subject: [hugoye-list] nasorayya

             
            I am not sure about Syriac and the tradition influence on the Syriac but the Aramaic has roots in Isaiah 11:1:
             
            <SNIP>
             
            "Branch" is NETZER and the followers of Y'shua were called  <Aram>NETZERAYA or "BRANCHERS" which Matthew transliterated phonetically to Greek as Nazoraios (Nazarenes).  The proof of this, IMO, is the close juxtaposition of YEESHAY "Jesse" with NETZER and that Epiphanius (Panarion 29 1, 3-9; 4, 9) reports that the followers of Y'shua were also called IESSAIOI or "Jesseans."
             
            Thanks for that Jack.
             
            The problem is that the Mandeans are not a Christian group,
            (some of  their writings treat Christ as a false prophet/demonic
            power,) and the relation of the Mandean term nasorayya to
            similar sounding terms for the followers of Jesus is what I'm
            trying to determine.
             
            Andrew Criddle
          • haberl@fas.harvard.edu
            ... The Mandaeans do not use Syriac, either. They have their own language, Mandaic, which is more closely related to the language of the Babylonian Talmud
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 2, 2004
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              Quoting sarban <sarban@...>:

              > Thanks for that Jack.
              >
              > The problem is that the Mandeans are not a Christian group,
              > (some of their writings treat Christ as a false prophet/demonic
              > power,) and the relation of the Mandean term nasorayya to
              > similar sounding terms for the followers of Jesus is what I'm
              > trying to determine.

              The Mandaeans do not use Syriac, either. They have their own language, Mandaic,
              which is more closely related to the language of the Babylonian Talmud than any
              other living Aramaic dialect. I'm currently writing up the result of a few
              years of fieldwork in this dialect and it strikes me as fascinatingly
              conservative - more so than even Macuch noted.

              AFAIK, Christ was never considered a demonic power according to the Mandaean
              texts. There's a recent debate over the meaning of the word mšiha kdaba (aka
              "false prophet" or lying messiah); many Ganzibras (chief Mandaean priests) want
              to interpret the second term as kdaba "book," making Christ the "bookish
              Messiah" or "Messiah of the book." There are certain philolgical problems with
              this interpretation. The two are also pronounced differently in Neo-Mandaic
              (the first is pronounced kedobo "liar", the second kedowo "book").

              The Mandaic term Nasuraean, meaning a follower of the Baptist in their
              tradition, is nasuraia (please imagine a dot under the s) written plene like
              most Mandaic words (the convention is to reproduce the transliteration of
              Mandiac forms in bold type, which I'm unable to do here). According to Macuch,
              Zimmern derives this term from Akkadian nasir piristi (long a, dot under s)
              "Guardian of the Mysteries" and that the Mandaic form is older than the Syriac
              or the Arabic. I've learned that you must take Macuch with a very large dosage
              of salt.

              -Charles
            • sarban
              ... From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] nasorayya ... Mandaean
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 2, 2004
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <haberl@...>
                To: <hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 4:12 PM
                Subject: Re: [hugoye-list] nasorayya


                ><SNIP>
                >
                > AFAIK, Christ was never considered a demonic power according to the
                Mandaean
                > texts.

                My basis for saying this is that IIUC the Right Ginza 2.1.139-150
                seems to identify Christ with Nbu (Mercury), and again IIUC the
                planets are hostile spiritual powers in Mandean thought.

                I agree 'demonic' was the wrong word.

                Andrew Criddle

                (Thanks for the other information it was very helpful)
              • leo_caesius
                ... That s certainly understandable. There are several categories of hostile spiritual powers in the Mandaean world view. The daiuia (from Persian dew,
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 2, 2004
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                  --- In hugoye-list@yahoogroups.com, "sarban" <sarban@s...> wrote:

                  > My basis for saying this is that IIUC the Right Ginza 2.1.139-150
                  > seems to identify Christ with Nbu (Mercury), and again IIUC the
                  > planets are hostile spiritual powers in Mandean thought.
                  >
                  > I agree 'demonic' was the wrong word.

                  That's certainly understandable. There are several categories of
                  hostile spiritual powers in the Mandaean world view. The daiuia
                  (from Persian dew, "demon", Neo-Mandaic div) are closer to what we
                  consider demons to be. The shibiahia (or planets) are a class unto
                  themselves, and are generally considered to be malign influences as
                  well. However they and their mother (Ruha d-Qudsha) are rather
                  complex characters; they are not always evil, and the Mandaeans
                  frequently invoked Shamish (the Sun) in times past when threatened
                  by their Muslim neighbors. Translators in the past have often
                  rendered the word shibiaha as "demon" but there must be a better
                  word for this class of supernatural beings (especially considering
                  that it unfairly lumps them with the more mundane daiuia).
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