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Re: [hreg] Re: TATA Air Car efficiency

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  • Robert Foster
    Hi Mike, I understand from a French colleague of mine who is a friend of the original French inventor who sold this technology to Tata, is that this technology
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 17, 2010
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      Hi Mike,

      I understand from a French colleague of mine who is a friend of the original French inventor who sold this technology to Tata, is that this technology has about a 70% efficiency. Of course, total system efficiency is going to depend on how the power is generated, so it might be down to 20% if power was made via a coal plant for instance. In France, it's nuclear.

      The main goal of this kind of technology at the end of the day is to decrease air pollution in urban areas.

      The initial customers are likely to be fleets who can would install their own compressor stations. e.g., FedEx is considering to purchase ~100,000 compressed air vehicles.

      The big auto companies are not generally supportive since they have invested in electric vehicles instead.

      cheers,

      Robert Foster


      On Jul 17, 2010, at 11:25 AM, mkewert@... wrote:



      I think that is way too high for compressor efficiency.
      Mike
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jay" <public@...>
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 2:14:22 PM
      Subject: [hreg] Re: TATA Air Car efficiency

      I have no idea, but I'll still speculate a little...

      It depends critically on the efficiency of the motor and compressor which we don't know, but I imagine the motor would be turbine based. (high efficiency). The home compressor would probably be reciprocating pistons (low efficiency). The one at the gas station would probably be a turbine again.

      For "back of the envelope" estimates of a turbine: 
      90% efficiency is easily achieved, and 95% efficiency is possible. Assuming the motor is 90% efficiency (space and weight) and the compressor is 95%, the system efficiency would be around 85%, which is comparable to batteries. The important element I have neglected is the weight of batteries vs air tanks - but as a wild guess, having lifted both batteries and air tanks, I am guessing the air tanks win.

      It's not so much a replacement for fossil fuels as it is a replacement for the batteries. The major advantages are simple fabrication, non-exotic materials, faster charging, and longer life(>6 years).

      Overall, it's not a bad concept, the problem would getting the infrastructure in place (compressed air at the gas stations). There is a classic chicken/egg problem here.

      My big problem is the transition problem (same as everyone else). I don't think I would want to have two cars, one for commuting and one for everything else. The infrastructure is really important!




    • J P Malone
      Air engine that is 94.5% efficient. (Not sure of their definition). They state: The Di Pietro Motor is a 94.5% efficient compressed air motor that can run
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 18, 2010
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        Air engine that is 94.5% efficient. (Not sure of their definition).

         

        They state:     “The Di Pietro Motor is a 94.5% efficient compressed air motor that can run on energy from sustainable sources such as the sun. 
        At the moment he uses one size motor for all the applications as seen in this video. With development it has the potential to replace any size motor in any application. 
        This technology exists today. It's not an engineer's concept bound to a computer screen. It's patented and physically verified. The only thing holding back the widespread application of this technology seems to be will. “

         

        TATA has the funding to pull it off.

         

        Hard to argue with 94.5% efficiency in turning compressed air into forward movement, as opposed to 20-30% (if that high?) efficiency in turning gasoline into movement... not to mention all the energy needed to extract and refine the oil.

         

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X6oWZe0QTc

         

        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Foster
        Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 11:23 PM
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: TATA Air Car efficiency

         

         

        Hi Mike,

         

        I understand from a French colleague of mine who is a friend of the original French inventor who sold this technology to Tata, is that this technology has about a 70% efficiency. Of course, total system efficiency is going to depend on how the power is generated, so it might be down to 20% if power was made via a coal plant for instance. In France, it's nuclear.

         

        The main goal of this kind of technology at the end of the day is to decrease air pollution in urban areas.

         

        The initial customers are likely to be fleets who can would install their own compressor stations. e.g., FedEx is considering to purchase ~100,000 compressed air vehicles.

         

        The big auto companies are not generally supportive since they have invested in electric vehicles instead.

         

        cheers,

         

        Robert Foster

         

         

        On Jul 17, 2010, at 11:25 AM, mkewert@... wrote:



         

        I think that is way too high for compressor efficiency.
        Mike

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jay" <public@...>
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 2:14:22 PM
        Subject: [hreg] Re: TATA Air Car efficiency

        I have no idea, but I'll still speculate a little...

        It depends critically on the efficiency of the motor and compressor which we don't know, but I imagine the motor would be turbine based. (high efficiency). The home compressor would probably be reciprocating pistons (low efficiency). The one at the gas station would probably be a turbine again.

        For "back of the envelope" estimates of a turbine: 
        90% efficiency is easily achieved, and 95% efficiency is possible. Assuming the motor is 90% efficiency (space and weight) and the compressor is 95%, the system efficiency would be around 85%, which is comparable to batteries. The important element I have neglected is the weight of batteries vs air tanks - but as a wild guess, having lifted both batteries and air tanks, I am guessing the air tanks win.

        It's not so much a replacement for fossil fuels as it is a replacement for the batteries. The major advantages are simple fabrication, non-exotic materials, faster charging, and longer life(>6 years).

        Overall, it's not a bad concept, the problem would getting the infrastructure in place (compressed air at the gas stations). There is a classic chicken/egg problem here.

        My big problem is the transition problem (same as everyone else). I don't think I would want to have two cars, one for commuting and one for everything else. The infrastructure is really important!

         

         

      • Ariel Thomann
        Any SCUBA diver knows that compressing air heats the dickens out of it - tanks have to be immersed in water while being charged. How can one do that if the air
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 18, 2010
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          Any SCUBA diver knows that compressing air heats the dickens out of it - tanks have to be immersed in water while being charged.  How can one do that if the air tanks are in the bowels of a car?
          Ariel
          - We are all Human beings here together.  We have to help one another, since otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
          - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic policy regarding non-renewable resources, starting with water.
          - Plan ahead seven generations -- reduce all your consumption, and eliminate waste.
          - "Health" insurance companies are the American death panels; their business is to collect premiums and deny benefits.
            Their CEO's, and lesser bureaucrats, should not be part of any civilized health care system.

          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        • Ed Sarlls
          There are some more air car limitations listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car Ed ... From: Ariel Thomann To: hreg Sent: Sunday, July 18,
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 18, 2010
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            There are some more air car limitations listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car
             
            Ed
            ----- Original Message -----
            To: hreg
            Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:05 PM
            Subject: [hreg] Re: TATA Air Car efficiency

             

            Any SCUBA diver knows that compressing air heats the dickens out of it - tanks have to be immersed in water while being charged.  How can one do that if the air tanks are in the bowels of a car?
            Ariel
            - We are all Human beings here together.  We have to help one another, since otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
            - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic policy regarding non-renewable resources, starting with water.
            - Plan ahead seven generations -- reduce all your consumption, and eliminate waste.
            - "Health" insurance companies are the American death panels; their business is to collect premiums and deny benefits.
              Their CEO's, and lesser bureaucrats, should not be part of any civilized health care system.

            - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

          • Jay
            For what it s worth, Popular Mechanics has a dim view of the car. http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/news/compressed-air-car-myth
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 19, 2010
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              For what it's worth, Popular Mechanics has a dim view of the car.

              http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/news/compressed-air-car-myth




              --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Sarlls" <edsarlls@...> wrote:
              >
              > There are some more air car limitations listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car
              >
              > Ed
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Ariel Thomann
              > To: hreg
              > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:05 PM
              > Subject: [hreg] Re: TATA Air Car efficiency
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Any SCUBA diver knows that compressing air heats the dickens out of it - tanks have to be immersed in water while being charged. How can one do that if the air tanks are in the bowels of a car?
              >
              > Ariel
              > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
              > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic policy regarding non-renewable resources, starting with water.
              > - Plan ahead seven generations -- reduce all your consumption, and eliminate waste.
              > - "Health" insurance companies are the American death panels; their business is to collect premiums and deny benefits.
              > Their CEO's, and lesser bureaucrats, should not be part of any civilized health care system.
              > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              >
            • Kevin Conlin
              Twice the emissions of a gasoline powered car and one third the efficiency of a lithium powered electric. An 18 mile range and 7 ft lbs of torque for the
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 19, 2010
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                Twice the emissions of a gasoline powered car and one third the efficiency of a lithium powered electric. An 18 mile range and 7 ft lbs of torque for the scooter.

                 

                Definitely more hype than breakthrough.

                 

                Kevin Conlin
                Heliosolar Design, Inc.
                13534 Quetzal Lane
                Houston , TX 77083
                Cell: 281-202-9629
                Fax: 281-530-7501
                kevin@...


                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay
                Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 10:10 AM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [hreg] Re: TATA Air Car efficiency

                 

                 

                For what it's worth, Popular Mechanics has a dim view of the car.

                http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/news/compressed-air-car-myth

                --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Sarlls" <edsarlls@...> wrote:

                >
                > There are some more air car limitations listed here:
                href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car
                >
                > Ed
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Ariel Thomann
                > To: hreg
                > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:05 PM
                > Subject: [hreg] Re: TATA Air Car efficiency
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Any SCUBA diver knows that compressing air heats the dickens out of it -
                tanks have to be immersed in water while being charged. How can one do that if the air tanks are in the bowels of a car?
                >
                > Ariel
                > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
                since otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic policy regarding non-renewable
                resources, starting with water.
                > - Plan ahead seven generations -- reduce all your consumption, and
                eliminate waste.
                > - "Health" insurance companies are the American death panels;
                their business is to collect premiums and deny benefits.
                > Their CEO's, and lesser bureaucrats, should not be part of any civilized
                health care system.
                > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                >

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