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Re: [hreg] Lurking Beneath the Surface, CSM

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  • William & Cynthia Stange
    Much in the same way Monsanto is curing world hunger?! There has to be a new way of doing business and it does not involve business as normal or we all perish,
    Message 1 of 23 , Jun 4, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Much in the same way Monsanto is curing world hunger?! There has to be a new way of doing business and it does not involve business as normal or we all perish, it is just that simple. Anyone who professes otherwise has their head in the sand. A linear way of business, system or thought pattern is going to fall off a cliff. Our world (as in all of us) is a cyclic order of things. We cannot go further without closing the "Loop."
      After we find all the oil and spend countless billions on technology to find it,get it and process it , when that is gone we will have all this tech/industry to do what with???!!! Find and use alternatives now while we have the inertia!! I thought this was a RE site not "wait until the next best thing comes along" site.
      Philosophies may differ, nature has been doing this a long time. Everyday here in Texas when the wind is howling think of much electricity we could be making, everyday the sun bakes Houston think of how much electricity we could produce and store (via CSP's). Everyday you drive these damn crazy freeways, get stuck in gridlock tell me that high speed trains and EV's wouldn't be a better decision. The air we breath has gooten remarkably worse even with TECQ and we are on a collision course with some major ailments.
      To be continued.....



      ________________________________
      From: Robert Johnston <junk1@...>
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, June 3, 2010 9:39:15 PM
      Subject: RE: [hreg] Lurking Beneath the Surface, CSM


      Tyra, I don’t read Ahmed’s posts as defending or
      minimizing the damage from the oil spill. I think he was making the case
      that BP is working hard via a multipronged approach and applying the best
      resources they can muster (and they have considerable resources, not to mention
      motivation!) to address the problem. If you disagree with the facts he
      presented, address them, but don’t accuse Ahmed (directly or indirectly)
      of “seeking to excuse inexcusable behavior and thinking” unless you
      believe that is what he really is doing. His experience in the oil patch
      brings helpful perspective; its isn’t glorying in the past.

      As posted earlier, BP is a leading solar company. So why
      demonize them? Why not demonize all the consumers who use their
      products? They (we) are the true force behind oil companies’ search
      for energy supplies “to the ends of the earth”. It is easy to
      attack visible targets like big corporations, but they are responding to market
      and societal needs. HREG can help by changing individual behaviors
      through education. As consumer habits change, corporations will respond.

      Robert
    • William & Cynthia Stange
      All this should be a mute point, anyone who reads more than Fox news channel can figure it out. US laws are lax (thank you Dick) we are racing into areas we
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 4, 2010
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        All this should be a mute point, anyone who reads more than Fox news channel can figure it out. US laws are lax (thank you Dick) we are racing into areas we have no experience in yet. We have yet to invent technology that will failsafe the programs. Socially we have placed $$$ above anything else so it may be a moral question too. Where do you want to start?
        Bill Stange



        ________________________________
        From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@...>
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, June 4, 2010 3:10:24 AM
        Subject: Re: [hreg] Lurking Beneath the Surface, CSM


        Greetings to all members of HREG. I really appreciate your comments and I wish I could respond to your concerns but I am really a handicap when it comes to typing. I am also busy with building a prototype of my recent patent that was issued last December. In the meantime, I will try to respond to some of the latest emails that are directed at me. I would be more than happy to give my opinion but I am must the deadlines as I have obligations to meet the wishes of the investors. My apparatus has a dual purpose, 1) for safe oilfield & refinery operations. and 2) protect the health and the environment.

        But, I will leave you with one comment to ponder about: Few members in this discussion board are relying heavily on reports by the newsmedia. They don't look at the facts that have caused the disaster in the first place? Was it the cement job, was it the BOP, or was BP? What did really happen? I have a hunch but as a professional engineer I will have to get the real data before I come to a conclusion. Whatever the cause was, it was a human error.

        We all should hope that BP and all the top experts in the oil industry find a quick solution to this serious problem.

        Latest update: BP has succeeded in cutting off the riser from the top of the BOP stack and it is lowering the new pipe to cap it as shown in this video. Technically, it looks like it will work but it may not make a 100% seal. It should capture most of the oil.

        http://bp.concerts com/gom/lmrp6_ 060310.htm

        Ahmad Solomon
      • Tyra Rankin
        Jim: I hear a lot that there is a misconception about how long it will take for new solutions to develop enabling us to wean off of oil. I respectfully
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 4, 2010
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          Jim:

           

          I hear a lot that there is a misconception about how long it will take for new solutions to develop enabling us to wean off of oil.  I respectfully disagree with your pessimism.   In my world as a technology attorney supporting new technology deployment, I have the advantage of meeting many new technology companies and learning about the work they are doing. 

           

          I recently met at a Think Big conference hosted by Shell during Shell’s Eco Marathon, representatives from Better Place.  http://www.betterplace.com/   Better Place is delivering disruptive technology that will accelerate the conversion process.  The company raised over $700 Million to date.

           

          I later had the opportunity to hear and meet Mike Granoff, Better Place VP of Oil Inde penden ce Policy when he spoke at an AJC event.  If you have not heard of their work, you need to educate yourself.  Not only a battery, theirs is also a swapping technology.  Israel and Denmark are currently mass deploying the vehicles, batteries and swapping system.  The plan is for EV (electric vehicles) to work like cell phones; you charge and swap batteries as part of your plan.  Better Place’s founder, Shai Agasse was President of Products and Technology at SAP. 

           

          I’ve spoken with scientists around the world who have vetted Better Places’ technology and system.  This company represents a new way of thinking about solutions.  Agasse is young and extremely dynamic.  It is thinking like his that will accelerate this process.   We can move more quickly than our past would indicate.

           

          Solterra Renewable Technologies – a Rice University spin off uses quantum dots deposited from ink jet processors.  Their technology picks up a wider range of spectral radiation, both ultra violet and infra red light, collecting electricity even at night.  They are a public company currently operating around the world. 

           

          http://www.solterrasolarcells.com/company_story.php

           

           http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8149521046988131773#

           

          Just like the explosion of the Internet when people put their energy behind its development, these new forms of energy use and generating technologies will explode as a result of new ways of thinking, of which these 2 companies are examples.   It’s about how we think and how we develop solutions.

          Tyra

           


          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jcargas@...
          Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 11:13 PM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [hreg] Deepwater Horizon Calamity Will Not Change Much

           

           

           

          The below post seems to perpetuate a common misconception that renewable energy will ween American from imported or any oil.  It will not.  Oil is used primarily for transportation - cars and trucks.  Covering Texas with PV panels will not power my gasoline car, regardless of the size.  Hybrids are starting to make a dent in our hungry consumption needs, but they still need gasoline.  Electric cars -- for everyone except the rich -- are sill a long way off.  We will need oil for the next 20+ years while we transition to electric powered transportation.

          And even then, we will still be drilling in the Gulf .... for natural gas for our power plants.  Solar and wind are wonderful sources of electricity and we need more of it to meet our growing needs, but they are not predictable or available 24/7.  We will still need quick firing natural gas peaker plants to get us through the times when renewables are not generating enough load.  We will still need to drill in the gulf for natural gas even after we all buy electric vehicles. 

          This sad calamity will not directly change much for our transportation energy mix.  Indirectly, it could push the price of oil back up which will again spur the purchase of hybrid and electric cars (and trucks??).  However, I don't see that happening so far.  It is nothing but bad news all around.

          - Jim

           

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: James McKethen <james@mckethen. com>
          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Thu, Jun 3, 2010 10:30 pm
          Subject: RE: [hreg] Lurking Beneath the Surface, CSM

           

          This Spill has stimulated emotions around the world. We all need to be careful and try to direct our energies toward our common goal of stimulating Interest, investment and political energies to making renewable energy ubiquitous. BP may just be the catalyst that RE needs to make the thought of gas guzzling autos, monster homes, and Wasteful practices as distasteful as possible. The accident is deplorable and I am disgusted that it is going to be a mess for a very long time. It is my wish that 10 years from now we are looking back on this as the turning point. When folks are making decisions on the purchases and practices that are focused on the long term.

           

          James

           


          From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Tyra Rankin
          Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 3:38 PM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
          Subject: [hreg] Lurking Beneath the Surface, CSM

           

          Ahmed:

          This Christian Science Monitor article was originally posted on HREG.  It discusses the degradation to open oceans caused by BP’s spill.  It describes massive dead zones spreading throughout the water column.  Since the well was below 5000 feet of water, the water column is enormous as is the potential for migration.   Destruction of the open ocean means BP’s disaster is not limited to US borders or US water – it affects global/internationa l waters.  Damage to the open ocean affects all of humanity.   Our oceans are the sustaining life source of this planet and they are already fragile and in jeopardy from our failure to manage our resources, including energy with care.  The BP spill is a crime against humanity.   It need not have happened.  It happened because of choices made, very, very bad choices and bad decisions.  We have to review the decisions that led up to the disaster and evaluate the risks to humanity from deep water drilling.  I believe the level of risk is no longer acceptable.  Rather than seeking to excuse inexcusable behavior and thinking, we need to push for a faster, more robust and more dedicated move to alternatives such as solar.  Technologies and thinking is accelerating at an unbelievable pace.  Revolutionary breakthroughs are here now.  Have you heard of companies like Better Place , rolling out electric vehicles in Denmark and Israel , or Soltera, whose ink jet solar generates electricity at night?  BP needs to become a tomb to a way of thinking and conducting business.  New energy industry like solar has been held back for decades by the same kind of thinking employed by BP.  The arguments are always about costs, just as BP’s arguments on Deepwater Horizon were about costs and saving money.   Walmart economics is costing us dearly in ways that money cannot even begin to measure. 

          How much more will it take until we acknowledge that we are on the wrong path?  If we can’t learn our lesson from this hideous monster and move to something different now, we never will.  Nostalgia for past years that you or I worked in the oil industry or our family members made their living there is not a good enough reason to keep going down this road.

          Tyra

          Gulf oil spill: real disaster might be lurking beneath the surface

          “The oil that can be seen from the surface is apparently just a fraction of the oil that has spilled into the Gulf of Mexico since April 20, according to an assessment the National Institute for Undersea Science and Technology. Significant amounts of oil are spreading at various levels throughout the water column, says the report, which was posted online a week ago but first published by The New York Times Saturday.

          The research, combined with other emerging data, could fundamentally alter researchers’ understanding of the oil spill. It suggests that vastly more oil than previously reported could be spilling from the wellhead and the attached riser pipe that now lies crumpled on the seafloor like a kinked and leaking garden hose.

          Moreover, it suggests that serious environmental degradation could take place in the open ocean, creating massive “dead zones” where no creature can live because of the lack of oxygen in the water. The spread of oil at all levels of the Gulf also could become a concern for shore communities in hurricanes, which stir up the water column as they come ashore.

          Scientists looking at video of the leak, suggest that as many as 3.4 million gallons of oil could be leaking into the Gulf every day – 16 times more than the current 210,000-gallon- a-day estimate, according to the Times.


          From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
          Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 10:59 AM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
          Subject: Re: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

           

          John, you're welcome

          Regarding the use of offshore production platforms in the future to build sustainable eco colonies the chances are remote.  First of all steel is hard to maintain when it is directly exposed to sea water.  You see ships at all times become scrap metal.  Typical offshore platforms lasts 40 to 60 years and longer if maintained properly.  Others have had shorter life spans.  The ones that are built today are probably designed and maintained better than the ones let's say built in the '50s, '60s and '70s. Many of the offshore platforms that are built today will be still producing oil even 70 years from now as long as it is economical to maintain them. I suspect most will be dismantled in 50 years - if the hurricanes don't get to them first.

          Could some of them be used for ecosystems?  Sure we could but, it would be like building a futuristic life sustaining system on top of the Titanic ship.  One tsunami or hurricane and it would go down like Atlantis.  

          To build eco colonies we should follow the plans by Japan as you see here

          Japanese Engineers to Build Floating City with 1km- High Building

          http://www.infoniac .com/environment /japanese- engineers- to-build- floating- city-with- 1km-high- building. html

          In brief, you could use one of the offshore platforms for an ecosystem one day but if it did sink you would be accused of crimes against humanity just as the BP is today.

          Ahmad Solomon



          --- On Wed, 6/2/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com> wrote:


          From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com>
          Subject: Re: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy
          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
          Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 9:46 PM

           

          Thanks Ahmad. 

          On another note, I had been talking with some colleagues this last weekend about the reuse of oil platforms off many US coasts. Once they get shut down or when the oil runs dry, whichever comes first, would they make good locations for sustainable eco colonies, ports? Would the colony be able to be its own county if in international waters? What is the realistic lifespan of these platforms if they are still maintained and what needs to be maintained if anything? 

          Power would be supplied by multiple sources, med to large scale wind about a mile from the platform, solar electric and thermal, wave systems, drinkable water from desalinization and Atmospheric water generator, multiple levels of gardens with Hydroponics and Aeroponics, Etc...

          I remember seeing a show in the UK about a couple that bought one off the coast of Scotland but have not found any info on them.

          Regards 

          John P. Matznick 

          Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant

          Green Tech Fusion

          888.642.0226

          www.GreenTechFusion .com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies

          On Jun 2, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Solar Energy wrote:

           

          Why did I choose solar as my Identification?

          I chose solar energy as my ID because I believe in it & I believe it is the cleanest and the most abundant energy source.  Installing mega size solar power stations across North Africa could supply much needed energy source to Europe .  This project is about 5 years away.  Today, Spain & Germany are two of the biggest producers of solar/thermal energy in the world.  The US is way behind because the Americans love their SUVs and they don't give a damn about what the rest of the country and the world think.  America is the only country where people have more SUVs than cars. 

          Nearly all Americans are drug addicts whereby oil is the drug and the Americans are junkies.  They need to wage wars on other countries to get a supply of their drug habits.

          Question: howmuch impact HREG member have made on the general public to switch to renewable energy?  I am sure you have but not very significant.

          On the other hand I have been proposing large size solar projects to other countries.  I am now in discussions with a group in one country to install big solar power stations in the order of 10 MW and larger.  In fact, I am proposing to the country to make solar energy as a required course in high schools and to encourage younger children to build solar panels for toys.  It does not have to work but it will generate their interest at early age.  I am telling you this in case any one on this board doubts my seriousness in renewable energy.

          I defended BP not because I want to defend oil companies, even though I spent 41 years in the oil industry. I just like the truth be told & I believe the mainstream media are some of the biggest crooks in America .  They are controlled by a few priviliged group of people and they have an agenda to push. They caused the Wall Street disaster and it was not by oil companies. Once more, the Gulf of Mexico spill was an accident.

          I have had the pleasure of working with some of the greatest minds in America .  I believe that I could apply some of the technology that I have learned in the oilfields to improving the world we live in.  And that's why I intend to do. 

          Ahmad Solomon 

           

        • jay_7227
          I disagree with those conclusions. I do not think it is a misconception that conversion will take a long time. I actually like that it is a challenge to
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 4, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            I disagree with those conclusions. I do not think it is a "misconception" that conversion will take a long time.

            I actually like that it is a challenge to make this stuff work. As an engineer, I enjoy solving challenges. But technology is a slow, iterative process.

            Even if a new EV car appeared tomorrow, along with all the infrastructure to support it, and we simultaneously outlawed new gas cars, it would still take something like 10 years before the existing fleet was rotated out of service.

            We can't really afford to retire the fleet, and even if we could it would take a while for the assembly lines to produce the replacements. (They are geared up to support the approximate number of cars people buy each year, not to replace all cars in the country in one year.)

            As much as it would be nice to believe we just lack motivation, that isn't the case. We still largely lack the technology, capital, and infrastructure.

            I want to buy a plug in Prius. I keep waiting! That's the slowness of technology. But even when it does come out, it will be too expensive to a lot of people. We won't be able to convert the fleet until used models start hitting the market, allowing people who were going to buy a $7000 Camery with 120,000 miles on it to buy the PHEV instead.

            Believe me, building the future is what I want to do, and I am super excited to be a part of it! But it's going to take some time.

            PS:
            I would be very, very skeptical about any PV tech that claims to harvest solar energy at night.


            - Jay


            --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Tyra Rankin" <tyra@...> wrote:
            >
            > Jim:
            >
            >
            >
            > I hear a lot that there is a misconception about how long it will take for
            > new solutions to develop enabling us to wean off of oil. I respectfully
            > disagree with your pessimism. In my world as a technology attorney
            > supporting new technology deployment, I have the advantage of meeting many
            > new technology companies and learning about the work they are doing.
            >
            >
            >
            > I recently met at a Think Big conference hosted by Shell during Shell's Eco
            > Marathon, representatives from Better Place. http://www.betterplace.com/
            > Better Place is delivering disruptive technology that will accelerate the
            > conversion process. The company raised over $700 Million to date.
            >
            >
            >
            > I later had the opportunity to hear and meet Mike Granoff, Better Place VP
            > of Oil Independence Policy when he spoke at an AJC event. If you have not
            > heard of their work, you need to educate yourself. Not only a battery,
            > theirs is also a swapping technology. Israel and Denmark are currently mass
            > deploying the vehicles, batteries and swapping system. The plan is for EV
            > (electric vehicles) to work like cell phones; you charge and swap batteries
            > as part of your plan. Better Place's founder, Shai Agasse was President of
            > Products and Technology at SAP.
            >
            >
            >
            > I've spoken with scientists around the world who have vetted Better Places'
            > technology and system. This company represents a new way of thinking about
            > solutions. Agasse is young and extremely dynamic. It is thinking like his
            > that will accelerate this process. We can move more quickly than our past
            > would indicate.
            >
            >
            >
            > Solterra Renewable Technologies - a Rice University spin off uses quantum
            > dots deposited from ink jet processors. Their technology picks up a wider
            > range of spectral radiation, both ultra violet and infra red light,
            > collecting electricity even at night. They are a public company currently
            > operating around the world.
            >
            >
            >
            > http://www.solterrasolarcells.com/company_story.php
            >
            >
            >
            > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8149521046988131773#
            > <http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8149521046988131773>
            >
            >
            >
            > Just like the explosion of the Internet when people put their energy behind
            > its development, these new forms of energy use and generating technologies
            > will explode as a result of new ways of thinking, of which these 2 companies
            > are examples. It's about how we think and how we develop solutions.
            >
            > Tyra
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            > jcargas@...
            > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 11:13 PM
            > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [hreg] Deepwater Horizon Calamity Will Not Change Much
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > The below post seems to perpetuate a common misconception that renewable
            > energy will ween American from imported or any oil. It will not. Oil is
            > used primarily for transportation - cars and trucks. Covering Texas with PV
            > panels will not power my gasoline car, regardless of the size. Hybrids are
            > starting to make a dent in our hungry consumption needs, but they still need
            > gasoline. Electric cars -- for everyone except the rich -- are sill a long
            > way off. We will need oil for the next 20+ years while we transition to
            > electric powered transportation.
            >
            > And even then, we will still be drilling in the Gulf .... for natural gas
            > for our power plants. Solar and wind are wonderful sources of electricity
            > and we need more of it to meet our growing needs, but they are not
            > predictable or available 24/7. We will still need quick firing natural gas
            > peaker plants to get us through the times when renewables are not generating
            > enough load. We will still need to drill in the gulf for natural gas even
            > after we all buy electric vehicles.
            >
            > This sad calamity will not directly change much for our transportation
            > energy mix. Indirectly, it could push the price of oil back up which will
            > again spur the purchase of hybrid and electric cars (and trucks??).
            > However, I don't see that happening so far. It is nothing but bad news all
            > around.
            >
            > - Jim
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: James McKethen <james@...>
            > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thu, Jun 3, 2010 10:30 pm
            > Subject: RE: [hreg] Lurking Beneath the Surface, CSM
            >
            >
            >
            > This Spill has stimulated emotions around the world. We all need to be
            > careful and try to direct our energies toward our common goal of stimulating
            > Interest, investment and political energies to making renewable energy
            > ubiquitous. BP may just be the catalyst that RE needs to make the thought of
            > gas guzzling autos, monster homes, and Wasteful practices as distasteful as
            > possible. The accident is deplorable and I am disgusted that it is going to
            > be a mess for a very long time. It is my wish that 10 years from now we are
            > looking back on this as the turning point. When folks are making decisions
            > on the purchases and practices that are focused on the long term.
            >
            >
            >
            > James
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: hreg@yahoogroups. <mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com> com [mailto:hreg@
            > <mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com?> yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyra Rankin
            > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 3:38 PM
            > To: hreg@yahoogroups. <mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com> com
            > Subject: [hreg] Lurking Beneath the Surface, CSM
            >
            >
            >
            > Ahmed:
            >
            > This Christian Science Monitor article was originally posted on HREG. It
            > discusses the degradation to open oceans caused by BP's spill. It describes
            > massive dead zones spreading throughout the water column. Since the well
            > was below 5000 feet of water, the water column is enormous as is the
            > potential for migration. Destruction of the open ocean means BP's disaster
            > is not limited to US borders or US water - it affects global/international
            > waters. Damage to the open ocean affects all of humanity. Our oceans are
            > the sustaining life source of this planet and they are already fragile and
            > in jeopardy from our failure to manage our resources, including energy with
            > care. The BP spill is a crime against humanity. It need not have
            > happened. It happened because of choices made, very, very bad choices and
            > bad decisions. We have to review the decisions that led up to the disaster
            > and evaluate the risks to humanity from deep water drilling. I believe the
            > level of risk is no longer acceptable. Rather than seeking to excuse
            > inexcusable behavior and thinking, we need to push for a faster, more robust
            > and more dedicated move to alternatives such as solar. Technologies and
            > thinking is accelerating at an unbelievable pace. Revolutionary
            > breakthroughs are here now. Have you heard of companies like Better Place,
            > rolling out electric vehicles in Denmark and Israel, or Soltera, whose ink
            > jet solar generates electricity at night? BP needs to become a tomb to a
            > way of thinking and conducting business. New energy industry like solar has
            > been held back for decades by the same kind of thinking employed by BP. The
            > arguments are always about costs, just as BP's arguments on Deepwater
            > Horizon were about costs and saving money. Walmart economics is costing us
            > dearly in ways that money cannot even begin to measure.
            >
            > How much more will it take until we acknowledge that we are on the wrong
            > path? If we can't learn our lesson from this hideous monster and move to
            > something different now, we never will. Nostalgia for past years that you
            > or I worked in the oil industry or our family members made their living
            > there is not a good enough reason to keep going down this road.
            >
            > Tyra
            >
            >
            > Gulf oil spill: real disaster might be lurking beneath the surface
            >
            >
            > "The oil that can be seen from the surface is apparently just a fraction of
            > the oil that has spilled into the Gulf of Mexico since April 20, according
            > to an assessment the National Institute for Undersea Science and Technology.
            > Significant amounts of oil are spreading at various levels throughout the
            > water column, says the report, which was posted online a week ago but first
            > published by The New York Times Saturday.
            >
            > IN PICTURES: Louisiana oil spill
            > <http://www.csmonitor.com/CSM-Photo-Galleries/In-Pictures/Louisiana-oil-spil
            > l>
            >
            > The research, combined with other emerging data, could fundamentally alter
            > researchers' understanding of the oil spill. It suggests that vastly more
            > oil than previously reported
            > <http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0501/C-mon-how-big-is-the-Gulf-of-Mexico-
            > oil-spill-really> could be spilling from the wellhead and the attached
            > riser pipe that now lies crumpled on the seafloor like a kinked and leaking
            > garden hose.
            >
            > Moreover, it suggests that serious environmental degradation could take
            > place in the open ocean, creating massive "dead zones" where no creature can
            > live because of the lack of oxygen in the water. The spread of oil at all
            > levels of the Gulf also could become a concern for shore communities in
            > hurricanes, which stir up the water column as they come ashore.
            >
            > Scientists looking at video of the leak, suggest that as many as 3.4 million
            > gallons of oil could be leaking into the Gulf every day - 16 times more than
            > the current 210,000-gallon-a-day estimate, according to the Times
            > <http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/us/16oil.html> .
            >
            > http://www.csmonito
            > <http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0516/Gulf-oil-spill-real-disaster-might-b
            > e-lurking-beneath-the-surface>
            > r.com/USA/2010/0516/Gulf-oil-spill-real-disaster-might-be-lurking-beneath-th
            > e-surface
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Solar
            > Energy
            > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 10:59 AM
            > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > John, you're welcome
            >
            > Regarding the use of offshore production platforms in the future to build
            > sustainable eco colonies the chances are remote. First of all steel is hard
            > to maintain when it is directly exposed to sea water. You see ships at all
            > times become scrap metal. Typical offshore platforms lasts 40 to 60 years
            > and longer if maintained properly. Others have had shorter life spans. The
            > ones that are built today are probably designed and maintained better than
            > the ones let's say built in the '50s, '60s and '70s. Many of the offshore
            > platforms that are built today will be still producing oil even 70 years
            > from now as long as it is economical to maintain them. I suspect most will
            > be dismantled in 50 years - if the hurricanes don't get to them first.
            >
            > Could some of them be used for ecosystems? Sure we could but, it would be
            > like building a futuristic life sustaining system on top of the Titanic
            > ship. One tsunami or hurricane and it would go down like Atlantis.
            >
            > To build eco colonies we should follow the plans by Japan as you see here
            >
            > Japanese Engineers to Build Floating City with 1km-High Building
            >
            > http://www.infoniac.com/environment/japanese-engineers-to-build-floating-cit
            > y-with-1km-high-building.html
            >
            > In brief, you could use one of the offshore platforms for an ecosystem one
            > day but if it did sink you would be accused of crimes against humanity just
            > as the BP is today.
            >
            > Ahmad Solomon
            >
            >
            >
            > --- On Wed, 6/2/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
            > Subject: Re: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy
            > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 9:46 PM
            >
            >
            >
            > Thanks Ahmad.
            >
            > On another note, I had been talking with some colleagues this last weekend
            > about the reuse of oil platforms off many US coasts. Once they get shut down
            > or when the oil runs dry, whichever comes first, would they make good
            > locations for sustainable eco colonies, ports? Would the colony be able to
            > be its own county if in international waters? What is the realistic lifespan
            > of these platforms if they are still maintained and what needs to be
            > maintained if anything?
            >
            > Power would be supplied by multiple sources, med to large scale wind about a
            > mile from the platform, solar electric and thermal, wave systems, drinkable
            > water from desalinization and Atmospheric water generator, multiple levels
            > of gardens with Hydroponics and Aeroponics, Etc...
            >
            > I remember seeing a show in the UK about a couple that bought one off the
            > coast of Scotland but have not found any info on them.
            >
            > Regards
            >
            > John P. Matznick
            >
            > Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
            >
            > Green Tech Fusion
            >
            > 888.642.0226
            >
            > www.GreenTechFusion <http://www.greentechfusion.com/> .com - Sustainable &
            > Renewable Technologies
            >
            > On Jun 2, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Solar Energy wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Why did I choose solar as my Identification?
            >
            > I chose solar energy as my ID because I believe in it & I believe it is the
            > cleanest and the most abundant energy source. Installing mega size solar
            > power stations across North Africa could supply much needed energy source to
            > Europe. This project is about 5 years away. Today, Spain & Germany are two
            > of the biggest producers of solar/thermal energy in the world. The US is
            > way behind because the Americans love their SUVs and they don't give a damn
            > about what the rest of the country and the world think. America is the only
            > country where people have more SUVs than cars.
            >
            > Nearly all Americans are drug addicts whereby oil is the drug and the
            > Americans are junkies. They need to wage wars on other countries to get a
            > supply of their drug habits.
            >
            > Question: howmuch impact HREG member have made on the general public to
            > switch to renewable energy? I am sure you have but not very significant.
            >
            > On the other hand I have been proposing large size solar projects to other
            > countries. I am now in discussions with a group in one country to install
            > big solar power stations in the order of 10 MW and larger. In fact, I am
            > proposing to the country to make solar energy as a required course in high
            > schools and to encourage younger children to build solar panels for toys.
            > It does not have to work but it will generate their interest at early age.
            > I am telling you this in case any one on this board doubts my seriousness in
            > renewable energy.
            >
            > I defended BP not because I want to defend oil companies, even though I
            > spent 41 years in the oil industry. I just like the truth be told & I
            > believe the mainstream media are some of the biggest crooks in America.
            > They are controlled by a few priviliged group of people and they have an
            > agenda to push. They caused the Wall Street disaster and it was not by oil
            > companies. Once more, the Gulf of Mexico spill was an accident.
            >
            > I have had the pleasure of working with some of the greatest minds in
            > America. I believe that I could apply some of the technology that I have
            > learned in the oilfields to improving the world we live in. And that's why
            > I intend to do.
            >
            > Ahmad Solomon
            >
          • Tyra Rankin
            Robert: I don t think he s minimizing the spill - that would be a blessing to us all if he could!!! He s minimizing BP s culpability for the spill by
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 4, 2010
            • 0 Attachment

              Robert:

               

              I don’t think he’s minimizing the spill – that would be a blessing to us all if he could!!! 

               

              He’s minimizing BP’s culpability for the spill by characterizing it as “human error.”  In that he is seeking to excuse inexcusable behavior!  He re-references his 40 years in the industry nostalgically, as basis for his claim of “human error.”   I don’t have to go over the specifics; others such as Lynden Foley in his June 3 post (attached) have done an excellent job of that, far better than I could.  There has been a deluge of posts on this site and news articles that clearly delineate the multi-system failure that BP architected, the lack of redundancy and back up for a highly critical, cutting edge, fragile and dangerous technology operation. 

               

              One cannot know of these things without understanding that BP has a culture of arrogant disregard for safety and the environment.  This is not “human error.” 


              The posts, if you have read them on this site, the Freedom of Information Act requests for BP’s subsea engineering documents for Atlantis, which BP refused, producing instead engineering documents for the hull and topsides only.  The requestor claimed that something over 80% of the engineering documents for Atlantis subsea are incomplete.  The subsea portion contains Atlantis’ BOP and safety systems. 

               

              If you haven’t read the posts to this site – read them!

               

              If you didn’t watch the May 16, 60 Minutes video – watch it!

              http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6490348n&tag=contentBody;housing

               

              If you haven’t lived in Houston these last many years and heard the stories of the Texas City explosion or the corrosion in the Alaska pipeline, then go to the archives and read them. 

               

              These articles were posted on HREG’s site.

               

              Discussion of incomplete P&ID documents on Atlantis covered more indepth: Truthout Wistleblower

              http://www.truthout.org/whistlelower-bps-other-offshore-drilling-project-gulf-vulnerable-catastrophe59027

               

              BP responsible for bad Valdez spill response

              http://www.truthout.org/slick-operator-the-bp-ive-known-too-well59178

               

              Christian Scientist Monitor, 3.4 Million gallons a day, not 210,000

              http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0516/Gulf-oil-spill-real-disaster-might-be-lurking-beneath-the-surface

               

              NYT cite

              http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/us/16oil.html?hp

               

              Tyra


              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
              Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 9:39 PM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [hreg] Lurking Beneath the Surface, CSM

               

               

              Tyra, I don’t read Ahmed’s posts as defending or minimizing the damage from the oil spill.  I think he was making the case that BP is working hard via a multipronged approach and applying the best resources they can muster (and they have considerable resources, not to mention motivation!) to address the problem.  If you disagree with the facts he presented, address them, but don’t accuse Ahmed (directly or indirectly) of “seeking to excuse inexcusable behavior and thinking” unless you believe that is what he really is doing.  His experience in the oil patch brings helpful perspective; its isn’t glorying in the past. 

               

              As posted earlier, BP is a leading solar company.  So why demonize them?  Why not demonize all the consumers who use their products?  They (we) are the true force behind oil companies’ search for energy supplies “to the ends of the earth”.  It is easy to attack visible targets like big corporations, but they are responding to market and societal needs.  HREG can help by changing individual behaviors through education.  As consumer habits change, corporations will respond.


              Robert

               

               

               

               

              From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Tyra Rankin
              Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 3:38 PM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
              Subject: [hreg] Lurking Beneath the Surface, CSM

               

               

              Ahmed:

               

              This Christian Science Monitor article was originally posted on HREG.  It discusses the degradation to open oceans caused by BP’s spill.  It describes massive dead zones spreading throughout the water column.  Since the well was below 5000 feet of water, the water column is enormous as is the potential for migration.   Destruction of the open ocean means BP’s disaster is not limited to US borders or US water – it affects global/internationa l waters.  Damage to the open ocean affects all of humanity.   Our oceans are the sustaining life source of this planet and they are already fragile and in jeopardy from our failure to manage our resources, including energy with care.  The BP spill is a crime against humanity.   It need not have happened.  It happened because of choices made, very, very bad choices and bad decisions.  We have to review the decisions that led up to the disaster and evaluate the risks to humanity from deep water drilling.  I believe the level of risk is no longer acceptable.  Rather than seeking to excuse inexcusable behavior and thinking, we need to push for a faster, more robust and more dedicated move to alternatives such as solar.  Technologies and thinking is accelerating at an unbelievable pace.  Revolutionary breakthroughs are here now.  Have you heard of companies like Better Place , rolling out electric vehicles in Denmark and Israel , or Soltera, whose ink jet solar generates electricity at night?  BP needs to become a tomb to a way of thinking and conducting business.  New energy industry like solar has been held back for decades by the same kind of thinking employed by BP.  The arguments are always about costs, just as BP’s arguments on Deepwater Horizon were about costs and saving money.   Walmart economics is costing us dearly in ways that money cannot even begin to measure. 

               

              How much more will it take until we acknowledge that we are on the wrong path?  If we can’t learn our lesson from this hideous monster and move to something different now, we never will.  Nostalgia for past years that you or I worked in the oil industry or our family members made their living there is not a good enough reason to keep going down this road.

              Tyra

               

              Gulf oil spill: real disaster might be lurking beneath the surface

               

              “The oil that can be seen from the surface is apparently just a fraction of the oil that has spilled into the Gulf of Mexico since April 20, according to an assessment the National Institute for Undersea Science and Technology. Significant amounts of oil are spreading at various levels throughout the water column, says the report, which was posted online a week ago but first published by The New York Times Saturday.

              IN PICTURES: Louisiana oil spill

              The research, combined with other emerging data, could fundamentally alter researchers’ understanding of the oil spill. It suggests that vastly more oil than previously reported could be spilling from the wellhead and the attached riser pipe that now lies crumpled on the seafloor like a kinked and leaking garden hose.

              Moreover, it suggests that serious environmental degradation could take place in the open ocean, creating massive “dead zones” where no creature can live because of the lack of oxygen in the water. The spread of oil at all levels of the Gulf also could become a concern for shore communities in hurricanes, which stir up the water column as they come ashore.

              Scientists looking at video of the leak, suggest that as many as 3.4 million gallons of oil could be leaking into the Gulf every day – 16 times more than the current 210,000-gallon- a-day estimate, according to the Times.

              http://www.csmonito r.com/USA/ 2010/0516/ Gulf-oil- spill-real- disaster- might-be- lurking-beneath- the-surface

               

               

               


              From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
              Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 10:59 AM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
              Subject: Re: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

               

               

               

              John, you're welcome

               

              Regarding the use of offshore production platforms in the future to build sustainable eco colonies the chances are remote.  First of all steel is hard to maintain when it is directly exposed to sea water.  You see ships at all times become scrap metal.  Typical offshore platforms lasts 40 to 60 years and longer if maintained properly.  Others have had shorter life spans.  The ones that are built today are probably designed and maintained better than the ones let's say built in the '50s, '60s and '70s. Many of the offshore platforms that are built today will be still producing oil even 70 years from now as long as it is economical to maintain them. I suspect most will be dismantled in 50 years - if the hurricanes don't get to them first.

               

              Could some of them be used for ecosystems?  Sure we could but, it would be like building a futuristic life sustaining system on top of the Titanic ship.  One tsunami or hurricane and it would go down like Atlantis.  

               

              To build eco colonies we should follow the plans by Japan as you see here

               

              Japanese Engineers to Build Floating City with 1km- High Building

              http://www.infoniac .com/environment /japanese- engineers- to-build- floating- city-with- 1km-high- building. html

               

              In brief, you could use one of the offshore platforms for an ecosystem one day but if it did sink you would be accused of crimes against humanity just as the BP is today.

               

              Ahmad Solomon

               

              --- On Wed, 6/2/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com> wrote:


              From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com>
              Subject: Re: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy
              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
              Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 9:46 PM

               

              Thanks Ahmad. 

              On another note, I had been talking with some colleagues this last weekend about the reuse of oil platforms off many US coasts. Once they get shut down or when the oil runs dry, whichever comes first, would they make good locations for sustainable eco colonies, ports? Would the colony be able to be its own county if in international waters? What is the realistic lifespan of these platforms if they are still maintained and what needs to be maintained if anything? 

              Power would be supplied by multiple sources, med to large scale wind about a mile from the platform, solar electric and thermal, wave systems, drinkable water from desalinization and Atmospheric water generator, multiple levels of gardens with Hydroponics and Aeroponics, Etc...

              I remember seeing a show in the UK about a couple that bought one off the coast of Scotland but have not found any info on them.

               

              Regards 

              John P. Matznick 

              Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant

              Green Tech Fusion

              888.642.0226

              www.GreenTechFusion .com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies

               

               

               

              On Jun 2, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Solar Energy wrote:





               

               

              Why did I choose solar as my Identification?

               

              I chose solar energy as my ID because I believe in it & I believe it is the cleanest and the most abundant energy source.  Installing mega size solar power stations across North Africa could supply much needed energy source to Europe .  This project is about 5 years away.  Today, Spain & Germany are two of the biggest producers of solar/thermal energy in the world.  The US is way behind because the Americans love their SUVs and they don't give a damn about what the rest of the country and the world think.  America is the only country where people have more SUVs than cars. 

               

              Nearly all Americans are drug addicts whereby oil is the drug and the Americans are junkies.  They need to wage wars on other countries to get a supply of their drug habits.

               

              Question: howmuch impact HREG member have made on the general public to switch to renewable energy?  I am sure you have but not very significant.

               

              On the other hand I have been proposing large size solar projects to other countries.  I am now in discussions with a group in one country to install big solar power stations in the order of 10 MW and larger.  In fact, I am proposing to the country to make solar energy as a required course in high schools and to encourage younger children to build solar panels for toys.  It does not have to work but it will generate their interest at early age.  I am telling you this in case any one on this board doubts my seriousness in renewable energy.

               

              I defended BP not because I want to defend oil companies, even though I spent 41 years in the oil industry. I just like the truth be told & I believe the mainstream media are some of the biggest crooks in America .  They are controlled by a few priviliged group of people and they have an agenda to push. They caused the Wall Street disaster and it was not by oil companies. Once more, the Gulf of Mexico spill was an accident.

               

              I have had the pleasure of working with some of the greatest minds in America .  I believe that I could apply some of the technology that I have learned in the oilfields to improving the world we live in.  And that's why I intend to do. 

               

              Ahmad Solomon 

               

               

               

               

               

               

               

               

               

            • Scarsella, Thomas M. (JSC-IS4)[TESSADA &
              There are plenty of mea culpas to go around regarding which party(s) are ultimately responsible for the Deepwater spill. I too believe that a transition to
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 4, 2010
              • 0 Attachment

                There are plenty of mea culpas to go around regarding which party(s) are ultimately responsible for the Deepwater spill.  I too believe that a transition to other forms of energy is inevitable but the world didn’t become dependent on petroleum overnight and it will take years for other forms of energy to become both sufficient and fully integrated.  In the interim, be it ten years or fifty, what we need is for the existing technologies to be used in the most responsible manners possible.  What I find most shocking about this accident is that there was no rapid means of dealing with a blow out should there be multiple system failures.  To be fair, once the failure occurred, the situation confronting BP was one of huge technical challenges bordering on the impossible.  Right now I think we should all wish BP as much luck as possible in capping this thing and stopping the outflow of oil.  Nobody except the lawyers are going to come out ahead on this one.

                 

                Tom Scarsella

                 

                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
                Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 11:06 AM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

                 

                 

                Thanks Robert

                 

                FYI, BP is one of the largest companies that produce Solar Panels for industrial use and commercial places, etc. We use lots of their system in the oilfields - especially in remote areas such as opening/closing valves in pipelines in remote areas in the US & abroad. They are highly reliable but they are expensive for residential use.

                 

                 

                Ahmad Solomon

                --- On Thu, 6/3/10, Robert Johnston <junk1@...> wrote:


                From: Robert Johnston <junk1@...>
                Subject: RE: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 7:16 AM

                 

                This board/group has a mix of scientists, engineers, renewable energy representatives, homeowners, hobbyists, general tinkerers…etc.  There are those that love to rant against corporations, big oil, etc.  I personally like to read postings from people with inside knowledge, whether they be in the solar industry, oil industry, or whatever, so long as related to renewable and sustainability (and I think some peripheral discussion of alternatives like oil, nuclear, etc., fit into that discussion).  I don’t care for rants that much.  I think Ahmad has made a number of valuable contributions to this discussion on BP/oil spill situation (which was not started by him), and I think it is a shame that he is being asked to shut up (and so rudely).  Diversity of opinion and information is how we learn, and that is why I participate here.  For those that want this to just be an activist group pushing a leftist anti-corporate agenda, this may be unacceptable.  But the reality is that big corporations are also behind the solar industry.  Hmmm…. Come to think of it, anybody heard of BP Solar?  GE Wind Power?  Shall we attack GE wind power for the role GE played in the derivatives/ banking scandal? 

                Why don’t we just accept the diversity of views, and if you don’t like a particular slant—whether leftist, centrist, or rightist, whether pro-corporate or anti-corporate—just skip the post or else post a response (without personal attacks)?

                Robert

                 

                From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
                Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 8:44 PM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                Subject: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

                 

                 

                 

                Why did I choose solar as my Identification?

                 

                I chose solar energy as my ID because I believe in it & I believe it is the cleanest and the most abundant energy source.  Installing mega size solar power stations across North Africa could supply much needed energy source to Europe.  This project is about 5 years away.  Today, Spain & Germany are two of the biggest producers of solar/thermal energy in the world.  The US is way behind because the Americans love their SUVs and they don't give a damn about what the rest of the country and the world think.  America is the only country where people have more SUVs than cars. 

                 

                Nearly all Americans are drug addicts whereby oil is the drug and the Americans are junkies.  They need to wage wars on other countries to get a supply of their drug habits.

                 

                Question: howmuch impact HREG member have made on the general public to switch to renewable energy?  I am sure you have but not very significant.

                 

                On the other hand I have been proposing large size solar projects to other countries.  I am now in discussions with a group in one country to install big solar power stations in the order of 10 MW and larger.  In fact, I am proposing to the country to make solar energy as a required course in high schools and to encourage younger children to build solar panels for toys.  It does not have to work but it will generate their interest at early age.  I am telling you this in case any one on this board doubts my seriousness in renewable energy.

                 

                I defended BP not because I want to defend oil companies, even though I spent 41 years in the oil industry. I just like the truth be told & I believe the mainstream media are some of the biggest crooks in America.  They are controlled by a few priviliged group of people and they have an agenda to push. They caused the Wall Street disaster and it was not by oil companies. Once more, the Gulf of Mexico spill was an accident.

                 

                I have had the pleasure of working with some of the greatest minds in America.  I believe that I could apply some of the technology that I have learned in the oilfields to improving the world we live in.  And that's why I intend to do. 

                 

                Ahmad Solomon 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

              • James McKethen
                what is the next step? _____ From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scarsella, Thomas M. (JSC-IS4)[TESSADA & ASSOC INC] Sent:
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 4, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  what is the next step?


                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scarsella, Thomas M. (JSC-IS4)[TESSADA & ASSOC INC]
                  Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 11:02 AM
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

                   

                  There are plenty of mea culpas to go around regarding which party(s) are ultimately responsible for the Deepwater spill.  I too believe that a transition to other forms of energy is inevitable but the world didn’t become dependent on petroleum overnight and it will take years for other forms of energy to become both sufficient and fully integrated.  In the interim, be it ten years or fifty, what we need is for the existing technologies to be used in the most responsible manners possible.  What I find most shocking about this accident is that there was no rapid means of dealing with a blow out should there be multiple system failures.  To be fair, once the failure occurred, the situation confronting BP was one of huge technical challenges bordering on the impossible.  Right now I think we should all wish BP as much luck as possible in capping this thing and stopping the outflow of oil.  Nobody except the lawyers are going to come out ahead on this one.

                  Tom Scarsella

                  From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
                  Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 11:06 AM
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

                   

                  Thanks Robert

                  FYI, BP is one of the largest companies that produce Solar Panels for industrial use and commercial places, etc. We use lots of their system in the oilfields - especially in remote areas such as opening/closing valves in pipelines in remote areas in the US & abroad. They are highly reliable but they are expensive for residential use.

                  Ahmad Solomon

                  --- On Thu, 6/3/10, Robert Johnston <junk1@plastability. com> wrote:


                  From: Robert Johnston <junk1@plastability. com>
                  Subject: RE: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 7:16 AM

                   

                  This board/group has a mix of scientists, engineers, renewable energy representatives, homeowners, hobbyists, general tinkerers…etc.  There are those that love to rant against corporations, big oil, etc.  I personally like to read postings from people with inside knowledge, whether they be in the solar industry, oil industry, or whatever, so long as related to renewable and sustainability (and I think some peripheral discussion of alternatives like oil, nuclear, etc., fit into that discussion).  I don’t care for rants that much.  I think Ahmad has made a number of valuable contributions to this discussion on BP/oil spill situation (which was not started by him), and I think it is a shame that he is being asked to shut up (and so rudely).  Diversity of opinion and information is how we learn, and that is why I participate here.  For those that want this to just be an activist group pushing a leftist anti-corporate agenda, this may be unacceptable.  But the reality is that big corporations are also behind the solar industry.  Hmmm…. Come to think of it, anybody heard of BP Solar?  GE Wind Power?  Shall we attack GE wind power for the role GE played in the derivatives/ banking scandal? 

                  Why don’t we just accept the diversity of views, and if you don’t like a particular slant—whether leftist, centrist, or rightist, whether pro-corporate or anti-corporate—just skip the post or else post a response (without personal attacks)?

                  Robert

                  From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
                  Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 8:44 PM
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

                   

                   

                  Why did I choose solar as my Identification?

                  I chose solar energy as my ID because I believe in it & I believe it is the cleanest and the most abundant energy source.  Installing mega size solar power stations across North Africa could supply much needed energy source to Europe.  This project is about 5 years away.  Today, Spain & Germany are two of the biggest producers of solar/thermal energy in the world.  The US is way behind because the Americans love their SUVs and they don't give a damn about what the rest of the country and the world think.  America is the only country where people have more SUVs than cars. 

                  Nearly all Americans are drug addicts whereby oil is the drug and the Americans are junkies.  They need to wage wars on other countries to get a supply of their drug habits.

                  Question: howmuch impact HREG member have made on the general public to switch to renewable energy?  I am sure you have but not very significant.

                  On the other hand I have been proposing large size solar projects to other countries.  I am now in discussions with a group in one country to install big solar power stations in the order of 10 MW and larger.  In fact, I am proposing to the country to make solar energy as a required course in high schools and to encourage younger children to build solar panels for toys.  It does not have to work but it will generate their interest at early age.  I am telling you this in case any one on this board doubts my seriousness in renewable energy.

                  I defended BP not because I want to defend oil companies, even though I spent 41 years in the oil industry. I just like the truth be told & I believe the mainstream media are some of the biggest crooks in America.  They are controlled by a few priviliged group of people and they have an agenda to push. They caused the Wall Street disaster and it was not by oil companies. Once more, the Gulf of Mexico spill was an accident.

                  I have had the pleasure of working with some of the greatest minds in America.  I believe that I could apply some of the technology that I have learned in the oilfields to improving the world we live in.  And that's why I intend to do. 

                  Ahmad Solomon 

                • Scarsella, Thomas M. (JSC-IS4)[TESSADA &
                  With regard to what exactly? I think as far as the spill goes we can all anticipate the aftermath and consequences: environmental damage, cleanups, lawsuits,
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 4, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment

                    With regard to what exactly?  I think as far as the spill goes we can all anticipate the aftermath and consequences: environmental damage, cleanups, lawsuits, and new regulations are all in the immediate future.

                     

                    As for getting beyond petroleum and fossils fuels in general; that will happen in large part over the course of the next century.  We can’t accurately predict which technologies will be supplying global energy demands one hundred years hence but in all likelihood we’ll see less oil and hydro than we now use and a great deal more solar, wind, and nuclear.  Keep in mind that there is a lot of coal on this planet and if it’s there it’s probably going to be used.  It would be tremendously beneficial to have a working large-scale carbon sequestration technology.   Power consumption in the future may well be less than it is now though that will require eliminating virtually everything powered that isn’t “smart,” many other things that are just wasteful, and some conveniences that have reached the limits as to what economies can be squeezed from them.  Japan’s energy consumption has been relatively flat for decades because everything new has to be more efficient than whatever came before it. 

                     

                    As a whole, the planet will likely continue to degrade for a few more decades but that trend will eventually reverse itself as more technologies reach maturity, education levels rise worldwide, and people everywhere learn that there is value in maintaining a healthy ecosystem.  

                     

                    This is all a little off message but I’m done.

                     

                    Tom S.

                     

                    From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James McKethen
                    Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 12:05 PM
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [hreg] Next Step

                     

                     

                    what is the next step?

                     


                    From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scarsella, Thomas M. (JSC-IS4)[TESSADA & ASSOC INC]
                    Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 11:02 AM
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

                     

                    There are plenty of mea culpas to go around regarding which party(s) are ultimately responsible for the Deepwater spill.  I too believe that a transition to other forms of energy is inevitable but the world didn’t become dependent on petroleum overnight and it will take years for other forms of energy to become both sufficient and fully integrated.  In the interim, be it ten years or fifty, what we need is for the existing technologies to be used in the most responsible manners possible.  What I find most shocking about this accident is that there was no rapid means of dealing with a blow out should there be multiple system failures.  To be fair, once the failure occurred, the situation confronting BP was one of huge technical challenges bordering on the impossible.  Right now I think we should all wish BP as much luck as possible in capping this thing and stopping the outflow of oil.  Nobody except the lawyers are going to come out ahead on this one.

                    Tom Scarsella

                    From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
                    Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 11:06 AM
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

                     

                    Thanks Robert

                    FYI, BP is one of the largest companies that produce Solar Panels for industrial use and commercial places, etc. We use lots of their system in the oilfields - especially in remote areas such as opening/closing valves in pipelines in remote areas in the US & abroad. They are highly reliable but they are expensive for residential use.

                    Ahmad Solomon

                    --- On Thu, 6/3/10, Robert Johnston <junk1@...> wrote:


                    From: Robert Johnston <junk1@...>
                    Subject: RE: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 7:16 AM

                     

                    This board/group has a mix of scientists, engineers, renewable energy representatives, homeowners, hobbyists, general tinkerers…etc.  There are those that love to rant against corporations, big oil, etc.  I personally like to read postings from people with inside knowledge, whether they be in the solar industry, oil industry, or whatever, so long as related to renewable and sustainability (and I think some peripheral discussion of alternatives like oil, nuclear, etc., fit into that discussion).  I don’t care for rants that much.  I think Ahmad has made a number of valuable contributions to this discussion on BP/oil spill situation (which was not started by him), and I think it is a shame that he is being asked to shut up (and so rudely).  Diversity of opinion and information is how we learn, and that is why I participate here.  For those that want this to just be an activist group pushing a leftist anti-corporate agenda, this may be unacceptable.  But the reality is that big corporations are also behind the solar industry.  Hmmm…. Come to think of it, anybody heard of BP Solar?  GE Wind Power?  Shall we attack GE wind power for the role GE played in the derivatives/ banking scandal? 

                    Why don’t we just accept the diversity of views, and if you don’t like a particular slant—whether leftist, centrist, or rightist, whether pro-corporate or anti-corporate—just skip the post or else post a response (without personal attacks)?

                    Robert

                    From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
                    Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 8:44 PM
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

                     

                     

                    Why did I choose solar as my Identification?

                    I chose solar energy as my ID because I believe in it & I believe it is the cleanest and the most abundant energy source.  Installing mega size solar power stations across North Africa could supply much needed energy source to Europe.  This project is about 5 years away.  Today, Spain & Germany are two of the biggest producers of solar/thermal energy in the world.  The US is way behind because the Americans love their SUVs and they don't give a damn about what the rest of the country and the world think.  America is the only country where people have more SUVs than cars. 

                    Nearly all Americans are drug addicts whereby oil is the drug and the Americans are junkies.  They need to wage wars on other countries to get a supply of their drug habits.

                    Question: howmuch impact HREG member have made on the general public to switch to renewable energy?  I am sure you have but not very significant.

                    On the other hand I have been proposing large size solar projects to other countries.  I am now in discussions with a group in one country to install big solar power stations in the order of 10 MW and larger.  In fact, I am proposing to the country to make solar energy as a required course in high schools and to encourage younger children to build solar panels for toys.  It does not have to work but it will generate their interest at early age.  I am telling you this in case any one on this board doubts my seriousness in renewable energy.

                    I defended BP not because I want to defend oil companies, even though I spent 41 years in the oil industry. I just like the truth be told & I believe the mainstream media are some of the biggest crooks in America.  They are controlled by a few priviliged group of people and they have an agenda to push. They caused the Wall Street disaster and it was not by oil companies. Once more, the Gulf of Mexico spill was an accident.

                    I have had the pleasure of working with some of the greatest minds in America.  I believe that I could apply some of the technology that I have learned in the oilfields to improving the world we live in.  And that's why I intend to do. 

                    Ahmad Solomon 

                  • Kevin Conlin
                    Thanks Tom, I don t think you were off message at all, you were succinct and realistic. Kevin Conlin Heliosolar Design, Inc. 13534 Quetzal Lane Houston, TX
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 4, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment

                      Thanks Tom, I don’t think you were off message at all, you were succinct and realistic.

                       

                      Kevin Conlin
                      Heliosolar Design, Inc.
                      13534 Quetzal Lane
                      Houston , TX 77083
                      Cell: 281-202-9629
                      Fax: 281-530-7501
                      kevin@...


                      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scarsella, Thomas M. (JSC-IS4)[TESSADA & ASSOC INC]
                      Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 2:24 PM
                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [hreg] Next Step

                       

                       

                      With regard to what exactly?  I think as far as the spill goes we can all anticipate the aftermath and consequences: environmental damage, cleanups, lawsuits, and new regulations are all in the immediate future.

                       

                      As for getting beyond petroleum and fossils fuels in general; that will happen in large part over the course of the next century.  We can’t accurately predict which technologies will be supplying global energy demands one hundred years hence but in all likelihood we’ll see less oil and hydro than we now use and a great deal more solar, wind, and nuclear.  Keep in mind that there is a lot of coal on this planet and if it’s there it’s probably going to be used.  It would be tremendously beneficial to have a working large-scale carbon sequestration technology.   Power consumption in the future may well be less than it is now though that will require eliminating virtually everything powered that isn’t “smart,” many other things that are just wasteful, and some conveniences that have reached the limits as to what economies can be squeezed from them.  Japan ’s energy consumption has been relatively flat for decades because everything new has to be more efficient than whatever came before it. 

                       

                      As a whole, the planet will likely continue to degrade for a few more decades but that trend will eventually reverse itself as more technologies reach maturity, education levels rise worldwide, and people everywhere learn that there is value in maintaining a healthy ecosystem.  

                       

                      This is all a little off message but I’m done.

                       

                      Tom S.

                       

                      From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of James McKethen
                      Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 12:05 PM
                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: [hreg] Next Step

                       

                       

                      what is the next step?

                       


                      From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Scarsella, Thomas M. (JSC-IS4)[TESSADA & ASSOC INC]
                      Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 11:02 AM
                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: RE: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

                       

                      There are plenty of mea culpas to go around regarding which party(s) are ultimately responsible for the Deepwater spill.  I too believe that a transition to other forms of energy is inevitable but the world didn’t become dependent on petroleum overnight and it will take years for other forms of energy to become both sufficient and fully integrated.  In the interim, be it ten years or fifty, what we need is for the existing technologies to be used in the most responsible manners possible.  What I find most shocking about this accident is that there was no rapid means of dealing with a blow out should there be multiple system failures.  To be fair, once the failure occurred, the situation confronting BP was one of huge technical challenges bordering on the impossible.  Right now I think we should all wish BP as much luck as possible in capping this thing and stopping the outflow of oil.  Nobody except the lawyers are going to come out ahead on this one.

                      Tom Scarsella

                      From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
                      Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 11:06 AM
                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: RE: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

                       

                      Thanks Robert

                      FYI, BP is one of the largest companies that produce Solar Panels for industrial use and commercial places, etc. We use lots of their system in the oilfields - especially in remote areas such as opening/closing valves in pipelines in remote areas in the US & abroad. They are highly reliable but they are expensive for residential use.

                      Ahmad Solomon

                      --- On Thu, 6/3/10, Robert Johnston <junk1@plastability. com> wrote:


                      From: Robert Johnston <junk1@plastability. com>
                      Subject: RE: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy
                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 7:16 AM

                       

                      This board/group has a mix of scientists, engineers, renewable energy representatives, homeowners, hobbyists, general tinkerers…etc.  There are those that love to rant against corporations, big oil, etc.  I personally like to read postings from people with inside knowledge, whether they be in the solar industry, oil industry, or whatever, so long as related to renewable and sustainability (and I think some peripheral discussion of alternatives like oil, nuclear, etc., fit into that discussion).  I don’t care for rants that much.  I think Ahmad has made a number of valuable contributions to this discussion on BP/oil spill situation (which was not started by him), and I think it is a shame that he is being asked to shut up (and so rudely).  Diversity of opinion and information is how we learn, and that is why I participate here.  For those that want this to just be an activist group pushing a leftist anti-corporate agenda, this may be unacceptable.  But the reality is that big corporations are also behind the solar industry.  Hmmm…. Come to think of it, anybody heard of BP Solar?  GE Wind Power?  Shall we attack GE wind power for the role GE played in the derivatives/ banking scandal? 

                      Why don’t we just accept the diversity of views, and if you don’t like a particular slant—whether leftist, centrist, or rightist, whether pro-corporate or anti-corporate—just skip the post or else post a response (without personal attacks)?

                      Robert

                      From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
                      Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 8:44 PM
                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

                       

                       

                      Why did I choose solar as my Identification?

                      I chose solar energy as my ID because I believe in it & I believe it is the cleanest and the most abundant energy source.  Installing mega size solar power stations across North Africa could supply much needed energy source to Europe .  This project is about 5 years away.  Today, Spain & Germany are two of the biggest producers of solar/thermal energy in the world.  The US is way behind because the Americans love their SUVs and they don't give a damn about what the rest of the country and the world think.  America is the only country where people have more SUVs than cars. 

                      Nearly all Americans are drug addicts whereby oil is the drug and the Americans are junkies.  They need to wage wars on other countries to get a supply of their drug habits.

                      Question: howmuch impact HREG member have made on the general public to switch to renewable energy?  I am sure you have but not very significant.

                      On the other hand I have been proposing large size solar projects to other countries.  I am now in discussions with a group in one country to install big solar power stations in the order of 10 MW and larger.  In fact, I am proposing to the country to make solar energy as a required course in high schools and to encourage younger children to build solar panels for toys.  It does not have to work but it will generate their interest at early age.  I am telling you this in case any one on this board doubts my seriousness in renewable energy.

                      I defended BP not because I want to defend oil companies, even though I spent 41 years in the oil industry. I just like the truth be told & I believe the mainstream media are some of the biggest crooks in America .  They are controlled by a few priviliged group of people and they have an agenda to push. They caused the Wall Street disaster and it was not by oil companies. Once more, the Gulf of Mexico spill was an accident.

                      I have had the pleasure of working with some of the greatest minds in America .  I believe that I could apply some of the technology that I have learned in the oilfields to improving the world we live in.  And that's why I intend to do. 

                      Ahmad Solomon 

                    • Robert Johnston
                      Of course, I wasn t suggesting that Ahmad was minimizing the spill itself, but rather, that he was minimizing in the sense of downplaying. I think you were
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 4, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment

                        Of course, I wasn’t suggesting that Ahmad was minimizing the spill itself, but rather, that he was minimizing in the sense of downplaying.  I think you were pulling my leg since you used the word yourself in that way in your second paragraph.  ;-)

                         

                        As for human error, what else would it be?  It was either a human error or an ‘act of God’ (i.e., natural event, random bad luck).  Seems pretty obvious to everyone that it was a human-caused event.  The gas and oil didn’t spontaneously erupt from the ocean floor; it was a result of human drilling activity.  Since it wasn’t intentional (conspiracy theories aside), it was an error.  I don’t think that minimizes the responsibility or culpability at all, and I can’t imagine that was Ahmad’s intent.  And yes, I’m aware of BP’s record at Texas City etc.  But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t an error.  Incompetence, bad judgment or even negligence, but not intentional.  Why would they knowingly and intentionally ruin all their hard drilling work, knowing they would destroy the company’s market value in the process?  So, it was an error.

                         

                        All of life is a series of risk vs. reward judgments.  We can always armchair quarterback and state the obvious after the fact.  But it isn’t so obvious up-front (or else we’d have avoided it).  And we willingly take risks because the perceived risk is lower than the actual risk.  I see people everyday driving zoned out while they talk on their cellphones, and sometimes they do crazy stuff like change into my lane without looking at  me at all—I have to brake to avoid being run into.  I’m sure they all think THEY can do it safely even if others can’t.  So their perceived risk is less than the actual risk.  I take a risk everyday I drive to work.  But my perception of the risk is that it is low and that the rewards of working are worth it.  If you ask me again after I have a bad accident and am quadriplegic I’ll tell you the actual risk was higher than I realized and that if I’d known I’d end up in that state, I’d have never gone to work; nothing I was doing there was worth being paralyzed the rest of my (shortened) life. 

                         

                        I’m not saying BP made a good judgment of risk vs. reward.  I think they made a bad one.  But everybody makes these kinds of judgments, and we often decide wrong like BP did.    And even if some people at BP made bad decisions, there are thousand of BP employees and most of them are like you and me—going to work each day to work hard for their families and trying to make the world a better place, providing products that people need.  I can’t go along with the demonizing for that reason.  Neither can I go along with the hypocrisy of demonizing while living a livestyle that utilizes the fruits of the labor of the demonized.

                         

                        Robert

                         

                         

                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyra Rankin
                        Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 10:46 AM
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [hreg] Lurking Beneath the Surface, CSM

                         

                         

                        Robert:

                         

                        I don’t think he’s minimizing the spill – that would be a blessing to us all if he could!!! 

                         

                        He’s minimizing BP’s culpability for the spill by characterizing it as “human error.”  In that he is seeking to excuse inexcusable behavior!  He re-references his 40 years in the industry nostalgically, as basis for his claim of “human error.”   I don’t have to go over the specifics; others such as Lynden Foley in his June 3 post (attached) have done an excellent job of that, far better than I could.  There has been a deluge of posts on this site and news articles that clearly delineate the multi-system failure that BP architected, the lack of redundancy and back up for a highly critical, cutting edge, fragile and dangerous technology operation. 

                         

                        One cannot know of these things without understanding that BP has a culture of arrogant disregard for safety and the environment.  This is not “human error.” 


                        The posts, if you have read them on this site, the Freedom of Information Act requests for BP’s subsea engineering documents for Atlantis, which BP refused, producing instead engineering documents for the hull and topsides only.  The requestor claimed that something over 80% of the engineering documents for Atlantis subsea are incomplete.  The subsea portion contains Atlantis’ BOP and safety systems. 

                         

                        If you haven’t read the posts to this site – read them!

                         

                        If you didn’t watch the May 16, 60 Minutes video – watch it!

                        http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6490348n&tag=contentBody;housing

                         

                        If you haven’t lived in Houston these last many years and heard the stories of the Texas City explosion or the corrosion in the Alaska pipeline, then go to the archives and read them. 

                         

                        These articles were posted on HREG’s site.

                         

                        Discussion of incomplete P&ID documents on Atlantis covered more indepth: Truthout Wistleblower

                        http://www.truthout.org/whistlelower-bps-other-offshore-drilling-project-gulf-vulnerable-catastrophe59027

                         

                        BP responsible for bad Valdez spill response

                        http://www.truthout.org/slick-operator-the-bp-ive-known-too-well59178

                         

                        Christian Scientist Monitor, 3.4 Million gallons a day, not 210,000

                        http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0516/Gulf-oil-spill-real-disaster-might-be-lurking-beneath-the-surface

                         

                        NYT cite

                        http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/us/16oil.html?hp

                         

                        Tyra


                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
                        Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 9:39 PM
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [hreg] Lurking Beneath the Surface, CSM

                         

                         

                        Tyra, I don’t read Ahmed’s posts as defending or minimizing the damage from the oil spill.  I think he was making the case that BP is working hard via a multipronged approach and applying the best resources they can muster (and they have considerable resources, not to mention motivation!) to address the problem.  If you disagree with the facts he presented, address them, but don’t accuse Ahmed (directly or indirectly) of “seeking to excuse inexcusable behavior and thinking” unless you believe that is what he really is doing.  His experience in the oil patch brings helpful perspective; its isn’t glorying in the past. 

                         

                        As posted earlier, BP is a leading solar company.  So why demonize them?  Why not demonize all the consumers who use their products?  They (we) are the true force behind oil companies’ search for energy supplies “to the ends of the earth”.  It is easy to attack visible targets like big corporations, but they are responding to market and societal needs.  HREG can help by changing individual behaviors through education.  As consumer habits change, corporations will respond.


                        Robert

                         

                         

                         

                         

                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyra Rankin
                        Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 3:38 PM
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [hreg] Lurking Beneath the Surface, CSM

                         

                         

                        Ahmed:

                         

                        This Christian Science Monitor article was originally posted on HREG.  It discusses the degradation to open oceans caused by BP’s spill.  It describes massive dead zones spreading throughout the water column.  Since the well was below 5000 feet of water, the water column is enormous as is the potential for migration.   Destruction of the open ocean means BP’s disaster is not limited to US borders or US water – it affects global/international waters.  Damage to the open ocean affects all of humanity.   Our oceans are the sustaining life source of this planet and they are already fragile and in jeopardy from our failure to manage our resources, including energy with care.  The BP spill is a crime against humanity.   It need not have happened.  It happened because of choices made, very, very bad choices and bad decisions.  We have to review the decisions that led up to the disaster and evaluate the risks to humanity from deep water drilling.  I believe the level of risk is no longer acceptable.  Rather than seeking to excuse inexcusable behavior and thinking, we need to push for a faster, more robust and more dedicated move to alternatives such as solar.  Technologies and thinking is accelerating at an unbelievable pace.  Revolutionary breakthroughs are here now.  Have you heard of companies like Better Place, rolling out electric vehicles in Denmark and Israel, or Soltera, whose ink jet solar generates electricity at night?  BP needs to become a tomb to a way of thinking and conducting business.  New energy industry like solar has been held back for decades by the same kind of thinking employed by BP.  The arguments are always about costs, just as BP’s arguments on Deepwater Horizon were about costs and saving money.   Walmart economics is costing us dearly in ways that money cannot even begin to measure. 

                         

                        How much more will it take until we acknowledge that we are on the wrong path?  If we can’t learn our lesson from this hideous monster and move to something different now, we never will.  Nostalgia for past years that you or I worked in the oil industry or our family members made their living there is not a good enough reason to keep going down this road.

                        Tyra

                         

                        Gulf oil spill: real disaster might be lurking beneath the surface

                         

                        “The oil that can be seen from the surface is apparently just a fraction of the oil that has spilled into the Gulf of Mexico since April 20, according to an assessment the National Institute for Undersea Science and Technology. Significant amounts of oil are spreading at various levels throughout the water column, says the report, which was posted online a week ago but first published by The New York Times Saturday.

                        IN PICTURES: Louisiana oil spill

                        The research, combined with other emerging data, could fundamentally alter researchers’ understanding of the oil spill. It suggests that vastly more oil than previously reported could be spilling from the wellhead and the attached riser pipe that now lies crumpled on the seafloor like a kinked and leaking garden hose.

                        Moreover, it suggests that serious environmental degradation could take place in the open ocean, creating massive “dead zones” where no creature can live because of the lack of oxygen in the water. The spread of oil at all levels of the Gulf also could become a concern for shore communities in hurricanes, which stir up the water column as they come ashore.

                        Scientists looking at video of the leak, suggest that as many as 3.4 million gallons of oil could be leaking into the Gulf every day – 16 times more than the current 210,000-gallon-a-day estimate, according to the Times.

                        http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0516/Gulf-oil-spill-real-disaster-might-be-lurking-beneath-the-surface

                         

                         

                         


                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Solar Energy
                        Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 10:59 AM
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy

                         

                         

                         

                        John, you're welcome

                         

                        Regarding the use of offshore production platforms in the future to build sustainable eco colonies the chances are remote.  First of all steel is hard to maintain when it is directly exposed to sea water.  You see ships at all times become scrap metal.  Typical offshore platforms lasts 40 to 60 years and longer if maintained properly.  Others have had shorter life spans.  The ones that are built today are probably designed and maintained better than the ones let's say built in the '50s, '60s and '70s. Many of the offshore platforms that are built today will be still producing oil even 70 years from now as long as it is economical to maintain them. I suspect most will be dismantled in 50 years - if the hurricanes don't get to them first.

                         

                        Could some of them be used for ecosystems?  Sure we could but, it would be like building a futuristic life sustaining system on top of the Titanic ship.  One tsunami or hurricane and it would go down like Atlantis.  

                         

                        To build eco colonies we should follow the plans by Japan as you see here

                         

                        Japanese Engineers to Build Floating City with 1km-High Building

                        http://www.infoniac.com/environment/japanese-engineers-to-build-floating-city-with-1km-high-building.html

                         

                        In brief, you could use one of the offshore platforms for an ecosystem one day but if it did sink you would be accused of crimes against humanity just as the BP is today.

                         

                        Ahmad Solomon

                         

                        --- On Wed, 6/2/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:


                        From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] I like solar and wind energy
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 9:46 PM

                         

                        Thanks Ahmad. 

                        On another note, I had been talking with some colleagues this last weekend about the reuse of oil platforms off many US coasts. Once they get shut down or when the oil runs dry, whichever comes first, would they make good locations for sustainable eco colonies, ports? Would the colony be able to be its own county if in international waters? What is the realistic lifespan of these platforms if they are still maintained and what needs to be maintained if anything? 

                        Power would be supplied by multiple sources, med to large scale wind about a mile from the platform, solar electric and thermal, wave systems, drinkable water from desalinization and Atmospheric water generator, multiple levels of gardens with Hydroponics and Aeroponics, Etc...

                        I remember seeing a show in the UK about a couple that bought one off the coast of Scotland but have not found any info on them.

                         

                        Regards 

                        John P. Matznick 

                        Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant

                        Green Tech Fusion

                        888.642.0226

                        www.GreenTechFusion .com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies

                         

                         

                         

                        On Jun 2, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Solar Energy wrote:






                         

                         

                        Why did I choose solar as my Identification?

                         

                        I chose solar energy as my ID because I believe in it & I believe it is the cleanest and the most abundant energy source.  Installing mega size solar power stations across North Africa could supply much needed energy source to Europe.  This project is about 5 years away.  Today, Spain & Germany are two of the biggest producers of solar/thermal energy in the world.  The US is way behind because the Americans love their SUVs and they don't give a damn about what the rest of the country and the world think.  America is the only country where people have more SUVs than cars. 

                         

                        Nearly all Americans are drug addicts whereby oil is the drug and the Americans are junkies.  They need to wage wars on other countries to get a supply of their drug habits.

                         

                        Question: howmuch impact HREG member have made on the general public to switch to renewable energy?  I am sure you have but not very significant.

                         

                        On the other hand I have been proposing large size solar projects to other countries.  I am now in discussions with a group in one country to install big solar power stations in the order of 10 MW and larger.  In fact, I am proposing to the country to make solar energy as a required course in high schools and to encourage younger children to build solar panels for toys.  It does not have to work but it will generate their interest at early age.  I am telling you this in case any one on this board doubts my seriousness in renewable energy.

                         

                        I defended BP not because I want to defend oil companies, even though I spent 41 years in the oil industry. I just like the truth be told & I believe the mainstream media are some of the biggest crooks in America.  They are controlled by a few priviliged group of people and they have an agenda to push. They caused the Wall Street disaster and it was not by oil companies. Once more, the Gulf of Mexico spill was an accident.

                         

                        I have had the pleasure of working with some of the greatest minds in America.  I believe that I could apply some of the technology that I have learned in the oilfields to improving the world we live in.  And that's why I intend to do. 

                         

                        Ahmad Solomon 

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

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