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RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve

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  • Gary Beck
    Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable. Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to
    Message 1 of 28 , May 28 8:02 AM
    • 0 Attachment

      Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable.  Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).

       

      For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.

       

      Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.

       

      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
      Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

       

       

      I knew about this.  What is the rational for choosing salt?  Salt has more heat capacity than water?  Betina

       


      From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@...>
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
      Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve

       

       

      I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it.  Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles.  It makes sense to me.  Of course the demand will create better systems  in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.

       

      The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand.  The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.

       

      How does SolarReserve work?  Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt.  The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years.  After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries.  Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.

       

      FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades.  SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it.  I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.

       

      As any thing else, there are always pros & cons.  I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects.  It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field.  For more information see links below.

       

      I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries.  Disposing old batteries is not safe.

       

      Ahmad Solomon

       

      SOLAR-RESERVE

      http://www.solar- reserve.com/

       

      http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

       

      http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

       

      http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

       

        

       

      SOLAR-RESERVE

      http://www.solar- reserve.com/

       

      http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

       

      http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

       

      http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

       

       

    • Philip Timmons
      And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is
      Message 2 of 28 , May 28 8:35 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is made.

        The storage equipment tends to add between double or at least a third of the overall cost and produces no gain.

        But other than that, it is great stuff! :) :) :)



         

        --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Gary Beck <eco@...> wrote:

        From: Gary Beck <eco@...>
        Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 10:02 AM

         

        Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable.  Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).

         

        For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.

         

        Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.

         

        From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
        Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
        To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
        Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

         

         

        I knew about this.  What is the rational for choosing salt?  Salt has more heat capacity than water?  Betina

         


        From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
        To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
        Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve

         

         

        I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it.  Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles.  It makes sense to me.  Of course the demand will create better systems  in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.

         

        The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand.  The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.

         

        How does SolarReserve work?  Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt.  The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years.  After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries.  Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.

         

        FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades.  SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it.  I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.

         

        As any thing else, there are always pros & cons.  I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects.  It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field.  For more information see links below.

         

        I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries.  Disposing old batteries is not safe.

         

        Ahmad Solomon

         

        SOLAR-RESERVE

        http://www.solar- reserve.com/

         

        http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

         

        http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

         

        http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

         

          

         

        SOLAR-RESERVE

        http://www.solar- reserve.com/

         

        http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

         

        http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

         

        http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

         

         


      • John P. Matznick
        There is sometimes excess energy produced with solar thermal systems even from wind farms that could be harnessed or stored using the salt method however the
        Message 3 of 28 , May 28 9:05 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          There is sometimes excess energy produced with solar thermal systems even from wind farms that could be harnessed or stored using the salt method however the main purpose is for nighttime energy generation. You cannot generate electricity from the sun at night....
          I think you missed the point of the technology. The building costs of the system storage components does have a ROI and it tangible so I do not know why you think there is no productivity gain?


          Regards 
          John P. Matznick 
          Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
          Green Tech Fusion
          888.642.0226
          www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



          On May 28, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Philip Timmons wrote:


          And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is made.

          The storage equipment tends to add between double or at least a third of the overall cost and produces no gain.

          But other than that, it is great stuff! :) :) :)



            

          --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com> wrote:

          From: Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com>
          Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve
          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
          Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 10:02 AM

           

          Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable.  Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).

           

          For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.

           

          Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.

           

          From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
          Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
          Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

           
           

          I knew about this.  What is the rational for choosing salt?  Salt has more heat capacity than water?  Betina

           

          From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
          Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve

           

           

          I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it.  Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles.  It makes sense to me.  Of course the demand will create better systems  in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.

           

          The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand.  The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.

           

          How does SolarReserve work?  Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt.  The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years.  After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries.  Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.

           

          FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades.  SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it.  I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.

           

          As any thing else, there are always pros & cons.  I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects.  It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field.  For more information see links below.

           

          I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries.  Disposing old batteries is not safe.

           

          Ahmad Solomon

           

          SOLAR-RESERVE

          http://www.solar- reserve.com/

           

          http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

           

          http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

           

          http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

           
            
           

          SOLAR-RESERVE

          http://www.solar- reserve.com/

           

          http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

           

          http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

           

          http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

           
           




        • jay_7227
          I have often wondered about the salt also. Nuclear reactors use them too. I assume the reasoning is similar. I am not sure what it is, but I would love to
          Message 4 of 28 , May 28 9:31 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            I have often wondered about the salt also. Nuclear reactors use them too. I assume the reasoning is similar. I am not sure what it is, but I would love to know more about it. :)

            I am no expert, so do not let me fool you - however, I have a few guesses. I have always assumed it is because it has a high boiling point. That means you can keep the system pressures low except right at the turbine. For a big tank, not having to put it under pressure could save a lot of money.

            Right at the turbine, you want the temperature as high as is practical, because most turbines are a more efficient at higher temperature. But you probably don't want that in the storage system.

            Salt is a pretty generic term referring to a large range of ionic compounds. It's never been clear to me if they mean sodium chloride or something else (phosphate, etc). I know nuclear reactors use some fluoride salt. If it is sodium chloride, I believe the melting point is more like 800C, not 400C.

            I also imagine that they are borrowing a lot of technology from the nuclear industry, and that is what they were familiar with.

            Just for fun, water can only be used from about 25C (ambient) to about 99C (just below boiling). It has a specific heat of 30.8 (J/K). That means it can store 2279 joules per gram (if I have my units right). NaCl can be used between 802C and 1412C and has a specific heat of 50.5, so you can store 30,805 joules per gram. I don't think the joule / gram is what they are targeting, but that gives you an idea of the properties.

            It seems to me like startup would be a difficult task. And if something ever went wrong and all the salt solidified in the lines, oh man! I imagine corrosion is pretty difficult to manage also.

            If anyone else has any other (better) clue about why they use salt, please share!

            - Jay

            --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Beck" <eco@...> wrote:
            >
            > Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable. Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).
            >
            >
            >
            > For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.
            >
            >
            >
            > Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.
            >
            >
            >
            > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
            > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
            > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I knew about this. What is the rational for choosing salt? Salt has more heat capacity than water? Betina
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            >
            > From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@...>
            > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
            > Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it. Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles. It makes sense to me. Of course the demand will create better systems in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.
            >
            >
            >
            > The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand. The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.
            >
            >
            >
            > How does SolarReserve work? Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt. The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years. After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries. Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.
            >
            >
            >
            > FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades. SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it. I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.
            >
            >
            >
            > As any thing else, there are always pros & cons. I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects. It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field. For more information see links below.
            >
            >
            >
            > I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries. Disposing old batteries is not safe.
            >
            >
            >
            > Ahmad Solomon
            >
            >
            >
            > SOLAR-RESERVE
            >
            > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ <http://www.solar-reserve.com/>
            >
            >
            >
            > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html <http://www.solar-reserve.com/technology.html>
            >
            >
            >
            > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf <http://www.solar-reserve.com/technology/ProcessFlowDiagram.pdf>
            >
            >
            >
            > http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada <http://www.solarfeeds.com/greentech-media/10405-solarreserve-lands-project-in-nevada>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > SOLAR-RESERVE
            >
            > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ <http://www.solar-reserve.com/>
            >
            >
            >
            > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html <http://www.solar-reserve.com/technology.html>
            >
            >
            >
            > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf <http://www.solar-reserve.com/technology/ProcessFlowDiagram.pdf>
            >
            >
            >
            > http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada <http://www.solarfeeds.com/greentech-media/10405-solarreserve-lands-project-in-nevada>
            >
          • Philip Timmons
            I am saying there is no profitable gain.  Just because you could store the power, it makes no sense to do so. It is a Time of Use thing, that perfectly fits
            Message 5 of 28 , May 28 9:40 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              I am saying there is no profitable gain.  Just because you could store the power, it makes no sense to do so.

              It is a Time of Use thing, that perfectly fits with Solar Thermal.  Most electric power is used exactly at the time(s) of day that Solar Thermal Electricity (without storage) is produced.

              Take a look at this Time of Use billing plan for Northern Nevada >>>

              http://www.nvenergy.com/home/paymentbilling/timeofusenorth.cfm

              Daytime, Peak Solar Thermal is worth 46 cents per KWH.  Deep night power is worth 8 cents per KWH.  That is a near 6 times difference.  Why would one choose to store 46 cent power from the day (rather than sell it then), and hold it into the night to sell it for 8 cents? 

              Base Load Coal and Nukes own the night.  Power is already vastly surplus in the night.  To unburden Solar Thermal Generation from storage costs, makes it already cheaper than Coal.








              --- On Fri, 5/28/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

              From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
              Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:05 AM

               

              There is sometimes excess energy produced with solar thermal systems even from wind farms that could be harnessed or stored using the salt method however the main purpose is for nighttime energy generation. You cannot generate electricity from the sun at night....

              I think you missed the point of the technology. The building costs of the system storage components does have a ROI and it tangible so I do not know why you think there is no productivity gain?


              Regards 
              John P. Matznick 
              Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
              Green Tech Fusion
              888.642.0226
              www.GreenTechFusion .com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



              On May 28, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Philip Timmons wrote:


              And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is made.

              The storage equipment tends to add between double or at least a third of the overall cost and produces no gain.

              But other than that, it is great stuff! :) :) :)



                

              --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com> wrote:

              From: Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com>
              Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve
              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
              Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 10:02 AM

               

              Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable.  Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).

               

              For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.

               

              Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.

               

              From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
              Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
              Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

               
               

              I knew about this.  What is the rational for choosing salt?  Salt has more heat capacity than water?  Betina

               

              From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
              Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve

               

               

              I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it.  Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles.  It makes sense to me.  Of course the demand will create better systems  in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.

               

              The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand.  The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.

               

              How does SolarReserve work?  Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt.  The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years.  After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries.  Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.

               

              FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades.  SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it.  I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.

               

              As any thing else, there are always pros & cons.  I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects.  It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field.  For more information see links below.

               

              I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries.  Disposing old batteries is not safe.

               

              Ahmad Solomon

               

              SOLAR-RESERVE

              http://www.solar- reserve.com/

               

              http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

               

              http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

               

              http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

               
                
               

              SOLAR-RESERVE

              http://www.solar- reserve.com/

               

              http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

               

              http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

               

              http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

               
               





            • Gary Beck
              Solar Thermal Electricy Vs Solar Photovoltaic Electricity - No Profitable Gain ? In the past $ have always indicate otherwise due to big Solar Thermal
              Message 6 of 28 , May 28 10:25 AM
              • 0 Attachment

                Solar Thermal Electricy Vs Solar Photovoltaic Electricity - 'No Profitable Gain' ?  

                 

                In the past $ have always indicate otherwise due to big Solar Thermal advantages in efficiency, availablility, and scale.  It just did not happen because both NG and Coal electric power generation has been cheaper than both!

                 

                Solar PV coverts at between 10 and 20 % maximum and can only sell power in high daylight which is about 1/3 of a 24 hour cycle.  Otherwise they need some storage mechanisms and batteries are not it.

                If you must have power when the sun is gone,… Who Ya Gonna call?,…" Sun-Busters"?

                 

                Heat storage systems are designed to produce electricity over a full 24 hours, not just 8 daylight hours.  Steam Thermal Cycles also can reach higher than 30% eff.  So that extra 10% to 20% over the Solar PV available 24 hours, not 8 hours, actually becomes more like a 30% to 90% improvement over Solar PV. This can pay for a lot big Solar Thermal plants.  

                 

                The problem is that while NG and Coal remain cheaper, it now also takes more investment to justify Solar Thermal Electricity because Solar PV panels is getting cheaper per Watt every month.  The best world has both big utility Solar Thermal Electricity plants and distributed Solar Photovoltaic Electricity.

                 

                 

                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip Timmons
                Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 11:40 AM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                 

                 

                I am saying there is no profitable gain.  Just because you could store the power, it makes no sense to do so.

                It is a Time of Use thing, that perfectly fits with Solar Thermal.  Most electric power is used exactly at the time(s) of day that Solar Thermal Electricity (without storage) is produced.

                Take a look at this Time of Use billing plan for Northern Nevada >>>

                http://www.nvenergy.com/home/paymentbilling/timeofusenorth.cfm

                Daytime, Peak Solar Thermal is worth 46 cents per KWH.  Deep night power is worth 8 cents per KWH.  That is a near 6 times difference.  Why would one choose to store 46 cent power from the day (rather than sell it then), and hold it into the night to sell it for 8 cents? 

                Base Load Coal and Nukes own the night.  Power is already vastly surplus in the night.  To unburden Solar Thermal Generation from storage costs, makes it already cheaper than Coal.








                --- On Fri, 5/28/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:


                From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:05 AM

                 

                There is sometimes excess energy produced with solar thermal systems even from wind farms that could be harnessed or stored using the salt method however the main purpose is for nighttime energy generation. You cannot generate electricity from the sun at night....

                I think you missed the point of the technology. The building costs of the system storage components does have a ROI and it tangible so I do not know why you think there is no productivity gain?

                 

                 

                Regards 

                John P. Matznick 

                Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant

                Green Tech Fusion

                888.642.0226

                www.GreenTechFusion .com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies

                 

                 

                 

                On May 28, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Philip Timmons wrote:



                 

                And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is made.

                The storage equipment tends to add between double or at least a third of the overall cost and produces no gain.

                But other than that, it is great stuff! :) :) :)



                  

                --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com> wrote:


                From: Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com>
                Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 10:02 AM

                 

                 

                Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable.  Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).

                 

                For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.

                 

                Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.

                 

                From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
                Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                 

                 

                I knew about this.  What is the rational for choosing salt?  Salt has more heat capacity than water?  Betina

                 


                From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
                Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                 

                 

                I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it.  Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles.  It makes sense to me.  Of course the demand will create better systems  in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.

                 

                The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand.  The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.

                 

                How does SolarReserve work?  Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt.  The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years.  After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries.  Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.

                 

                FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades.  SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it.  I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.

                 

                As any thing else, there are always pros & cons.  I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects.  It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field.  For more information see links below.

                 

                I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries.  Disposing old batteries is not safe.

                 

                Ahmad Solomon

                 

                SOLAR-RESERVE

                http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                 

                http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                 

                http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                 

                http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                 

                  

                 

                SOLAR-RESERVE

                http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                 

                http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                 

                http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                 

                http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

              • jay_7227
                I think you are missing Phillip s point... If all the conventional power plants disappeared tomorrow, and were replaced by solar thermal, yes, there would be a
                Message 7 of 28 , May 28 12:03 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  I think you are missing Phillip's point...

                  If all the conventional power plants disappeared tomorrow, and were replaced by solar thermal, yes, there would be a huge need for energy storage. But that is not the case. What we would be looking at is building a new power plant here and there while the old ones continued to function for a very long time.

                  From where we are right now, it would not be necessary for the first solar thermal plants to store power. They could simply generate power when the sun comes up and stop when the sun comes down. The existing, conventional power plants would provide power at night with no need for storage.

                  This would work well for both the technologies, because currently the conventional power plants have to power up during the day and then run somewhat idle at night - this cycling up and down hurts their efficiency. Solar would cut down on how much they needed to ramp up and they could run much more evenly. Solar would also benefit because it would not need to invest as heavily in energy storage.

                  Eventually, as old conventional power plants are taken off line they would be replaced by solar - these new solar plants would need energy storage.

                  But I think Phillip has a good point, it is not necessary for the first systems to have it. Until solar is providing somewhere around 20% of the total capacity it doesn't need to worry about storing power.


                  - Jay




                  --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Beck" <eco@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Solar Thermal Electricy Vs Solar Photovoltaic Electricity - 'No Profitable Gain' ?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In the past $ have always indicate otherwise due to big Solar Thermal advantages in efficiency, availablility, and scale. It just did not happen because both NG and Coal electric power generation has been cheaper than both!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Solar PV coverts at between 10 and 20 % maximum and can only sell power in high daylight which is about 1/3 of a 24 hour cycle. Otherwise they need some storage mechanisms and batteries are not it.
                  >
                  > If you must have power when the sun is gone,… Who Ya Gonna call?,…" Sun-Busters"?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Heat storage systems are designed to produce electricity over a full 24 hours, not just 8 daylight hours. Steam Thermal Cycles also can reach higher than 30% eff. So that extra 10% to 20% over the Solar PV available 24 hours, not 8 hours, actually becomes more like a 30% to 90% improvement over Solar PV. This can pay for a lot big Solar Thermal plants.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The problem is that while NG and Coal remain cheaper, it now also takes more investment to justify Solar Thermal Electricity because Solar PV panels is getting cheaper per Watt every month. The best world has both big utility Solar Thermal Electricity plants and distributed Solar Photovoltaic Electricity.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip Timmons
                  > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 11:40 AM
                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I am saying there is no profitable gain. Just because you could store the power, it makes no sense to do so.
                  >
                  > It is a Time of Use thing, that perfectly fits with Solar Thermal. Most electric power is used exactly at the time(s) of day that Solar Thermal Electricity (without storage) is produced.
                  >
                  > Take a look at this Time of Use billing plan for Northern Nevada >>>
                  >
                  > http://www.nvenergy.com/home/paymentbilling/timeofusenorth.cfm
                  >
                  > Daytime, Peak Solar Thermal is worth 46 cents per KWH. Deep night power is worth 8 cents per KWH. That is a near 6 times difference. Why would one choose to store 46 cent power from the day (rather than sell it then), and hold it into the night to sell it for 8 cents?
                  >
                  > Base Load Coal and Nukes own the night. Power is already vastly surplus in the night. To unburden Solar Thermal Generation from storage costs, makes it already cheaper than Coal.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- On Fri, 5/28/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:05 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > There is sometimes excess energy produced with solar thermal systems even from wind farms that could be harnessed or stored using the salt method however the main purpose is for nighttime energy generation. You cannot generate electricity from the sun at night....
                  >
                  > I think you missed the point of the technology. The building costs of the system storage components does have a ROI and it tangible so I do not know why you think there is no productivity gain?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Regards
                  >
                  > John P. Matznick
                  >
                  > Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                  >
                  > Green Tech Fusion
                  >
                  > 888.642.0226
                  >
                  > www.GreenTechFusion .com <http://www.GreenTechFusion.com/> - Sustainable & Renewable Technologies
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On May 28, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Philip Timmons wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is made.
                  >
                  > The storage equipment tends to add between double or at least a third of the overall cost and produces no gain.
                  >
                  > But other than that, it is great stuff! :) :) :)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com>
                  > Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                  > Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 10:02 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable. Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
                  > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I knew about this. What is the rational for choosing salt? Salt has more heat capacity than water? Betina
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  >
                  > From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                  > Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
                  > Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it. Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles. It makes sense to me. Of course the demand will create better systems in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand. The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > How does SolarReserve work? Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt. The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years. After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries. Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades. SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it. I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > As any thing else, there are always pros & cons. I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects. It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field. For more information see links below.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries. Disposing old batteries is not safe.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Ahmad Solomon
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SOLAR-RESERVE
                  >
                  > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ <http://www.solar-reserve.com/>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html <http://www.solar-reserve.com/technology.html>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf <http://www.solar-reserve.com/technology/ProcessFlowDiagram.pdf>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada <http://www.solarfeeds.com/greentech-media/10405-solarreserve-lands-project-in-nevada>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SOLAR-RESERVE
                  >
                  > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ <http://www.solar-reserve.com/>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html <http://www.solar-reserve.com/technology.html>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf <http://www.solar-reserve.com/technology/ProcessFlowDiagram.pdf>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada <http://www.solarfeeds.com/greentech-media/10405-solarreserve-lands-project-in-nevada>
                  >
                • William & Cynthia Stange
                  All of these are great emails! I am also in favor of CSP- Solar Thermal, both Mojave and inland San Diego County use them. We in Texas are fools not to use
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 28 5:19 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    All of these are great emails! I am also in favor of CSP- Solar Thermal, both Mojave and inland San Diego County use them. We in Texas are fools not to use such technology. Another facet I believe in is geothermal. It just has to be geographically correct area of the US to be done. Geyserville Califonia, (see below in dry steam reservoirs) have been using geothermal generation since 1952? A quick and agile company could identify and submit applications for dry/wet wells in active areas. There is no oil to come gushing out, nor any radioactive materials to send into the suns orbit to get rid of. To me it's kind of like "wow, why didn't we do this a loong time ago" kind of scenario. Basically the same energy as our sun, but it's below our feet and it's still there at night too. :o
                    Bill Stange




                                             

                    From: Gary Beck <eco@...>
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Fri, May 28, 2010 12:25:41 PM
                    Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                     

                    Solar Thermal Electricy Vs Solar Photovoltaic Electricity - 'No Profitable Gain' ?  

                     

                    In the past $ have always indicate otherwise due to big Solar Thermal advantages in efficiency, availablility, and scale.  It just did not happen because both NG and Coal electric power generation has been cheaper than both!

                     

                    Solar PV coverts at between 10 and 20 % maximum and can only sell power in high daylight which is about 1/3 of a 24 hour cycle.  Otherwise they need some storage mechanisms and batteries are not it.

                    If you must have power when the sun is gone,… Who Ya Gonna call?,…" Sun-Busters"?

                     

                    Heat storage systems are designed to produce electricity over a full 24 hours, not just 8 daylight hours.  Steam Thermal Cycles also can reach higher than 30% eff.  So that extra 10% to 20% over the Solar PV available 24 hours, not 8 hours, actually becomes more like a 30% to 90% improvement over Solar PV. This can pay for a lot big Solar Thermal plants.  

                     

                    The problem is that while NG and Coal remain cheaper, it now also takes more investment to justify Solar Thermal Electricity because Solar PV panels is getting cheaper per Watt every month.  The best world has both big utility Solar Thermal Electricity plants and distributed Solar Photovoltaic Electricity.

                     

                     

                    From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Philip Timmons
                    Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 11:40 AM
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                     

                     

                    I am saying there is no profitable gain.  Just because you could store the power, it makes no sense to do so.

                    It is a Time of Use thing, that perfectly fits with Solar Thermal.  Most electric power is used exactly at the time(s) of day that Solar Thermal Electricity (without storage) is produced.

                    Take a look at this Time of Use billing plan for Northern Nevada >>>

                    http://www.nvenergy .com/home/ paymentbilling/ timeofusenorth. cfm

                    Daytime, Peak Solar Thermal is worth 46 cents per KWH.  Deep night power is worth 8 cents per KWH.  That is a near 6 times difference.  Why would one choose to store 46 cent power from the day (rather than sell it then), and hold it into the night to sell it for 8 cents? 

                    Base Load Coal and Nukes own the night.  Power is already vastly surplus in the night.  To unburden Solar Thermal Generation from storage costs, makes it already cheaper than Coal.








                    --- On Fri, 5/28/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com> wrote:


                    From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com>
                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:05 AM

                     

                    There is sometimes excess energy produced with solar thermal systems even from wind farms that could be harnessed or stored using the salt method however the main purpose is for nighttime energy generation. You cannot generate electricity from the sun at night....

                    I think you missed the point of the technology. The building costs of the system storage components does have a ROI and it tangible so I do not know why you think there is no productivity gain?

                     

                     

                    Regards 

                    John P. Matznick 

                    Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant

                    Green Tech Fusion

                    888.642.0226

                    www.GreenTechFusion .com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies

                     

                     

                     

                    On May 28, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Philip Timmons wrote:



                     

                    And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is made.

                    The storage equipment tends to add between double or at least a third of the overall cost and produces no gain.

                    But other than that, it is great stuff! :) :) :)



                      

                    --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com> wrote:


                    From: Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com>
                    Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 10:02 AM

                     

                     

                    Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable.  Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).

                     

                    For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.

                     

                    Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.

                     

                    From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
                    Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                     

                     

                    I knew about this.  What is the rational for choosing salt?  Salt has more heat capacity than water?  Betina

                     


                    From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
                    Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                     

                     

                    I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it.  Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles.  It makes sense to me.  Of course the demand will create better systems  in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.

                     

                    The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand.  The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.

                     

                    How does SolarReserve work?  Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt.  The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years.  After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries.  Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.

                     

                    FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades.  SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it.  I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.

                     

                    As any thing else, there are always pros & cons.  I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects.  It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field.  For more information see links below.

                     

                    I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries.  Disposing old batteries is not safe.

                     

                    Ahmad Solomon

                     

                    SOLAR-RESERVE

                    http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                     

                    http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                     

                    http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                     

                    http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                     

                      

                     

                    SOLAR-RESERVE

                    http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                     

                    http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                     

                    http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                     

                    http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                  • Solar Energy
                    You have a good insight into uses of salt.  I don’t know what they use in nuclear reactors but I believe what the Solar-Reserve website is talking about is
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 29 12:43 AM
                    • 0 Attachment

                      You have a good insight into uses of salt.  I don’t know what they use in nuclear reactors but I believe what the Solar-Reserve website is talking about is Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) – although the site does not mention it but CaCl2 is abundantly available and we use it in the oilfield operations.  It has a strong affinity to removing moisture from natural gas that are produced in the oilfields.  CaCl2 is also referred to as commercial salt vs table salt.  

                       

                      There are many highly advanced methods to dry natural gas in large quantities but these methods become uneconomical in marginal gas wells.  That’s when very small independent gas companies use CaCl2 to dry gas before they could sell to natural gas pipelines.  The process of drying gas is called “gas dehydration.” When small companies use CaCl2 to dry gas it is referred as “poor man’s gas dehydration.”  

                       

                      Where do we get CaCl2?  America is blessed with salt domes and we have mountains of salt underground.  This is where we often find oil trapped in formations around the salt.  The greatest benefit of salt domes is to store oil & natural gas.  Oil is stored at Petroleum Strategic Reserves – mostly in Texas & Louisiana – but natural gas is stored only for the purpose to meet peak demand – especially in the winter in northern United States .

                       

                      How do we store oil and gas in salt domes?  We drill through the crust of the salt domes to certain depths then create caverns by pumping water to dissolve the salt and pump the brine to the surface.  Then we store oil or gas in these caverns for use when needed.  Strategic petroleum reserves are very important to our economy and we heavily rely on them.  On the other hand, China has a serious problem with building strategic petroleum reserves.  They lack sufficient salt domes.  See link below and learn about salt domes:

                       

                      Salt Domes

                      http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=salt+domes&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=1rUATI_8IIrkNcmSlTs&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDYQsAQwAw

                       

                      Physical properties of CaCl2 (Calcium Chloride) salt

                      http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c0357.htm

                       

                      You said, It seems to me like startup would be a difficult task. And if something ever went wrong and all the salt solidified in the lines, oh man! I imagine corrosion is pretty difficult to manage also.”

                       

                      You are absolutely right; if the plant is shut down for a prolonged period the salt will solidify.  What do they do in this case?  No mention of that. One guess would be if the flow lines are double concentric pipes so you could pump superheated steam to melt the salt.  

                       

                      After giving it some thought the flow diagram by Solar-Reserve shows a melting point of under 1050 Deg F.  Then it can’t be either CaCl2 or NaCl2 (table salt).  So what kind of salt is it?  I spoke to one of the VPs of Solar-Reserve few days ago & I am sorry this question did not occur to me at the time.  In any case, they are using one form of salt.

                       

                      Indeed, corrosion is always a problem but we have the means to protect the steel or at least prolong the life of the steel to make it economical.

                       

                      You also said, “If anyone else has any other (better) clue about why they use salt, please share!”  

                       

                      I have already mentioned above about some uses for salt but in the case of Solar-Reserve it is used for the sole purpose of storing energy and to transfer heat from salt to water to produce steam to drive the steam turbines to drive the electric generators to produce electric power.

                       

                      In the oilfields, we use CaCl2 in specially designed heaters to heat heavy oil (like tar oil) in pipelines and in vaporizing Liquified Petroleum Gas (LNG) before shipping through pipelines and also Liquid Petroleum Gas (LPG).  There are many other uses of CaCl2.   

                       

                      I hope this answers some of your questions.

                       

                      Ahmad Solomon

                      --- On Fri, 5/28/10, jay_7227 <yahoo@...> wrote:

                      From: jay_7227 <yahoo@...>
                      Subject: [hreg] Re: Solar Resrve
                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:31 AM

                       
                      I have often wondered about the salt also. Nuclear reactors use them too. I assume the reasoning is similar. I am not sure what it is, but I would love to know more about it. :)

                      I am no expert, so do not let me fool you - however, I have a few guesses. I have always assumed it is because it has a high boiling point. That means you can keep the system pressures low except right at the turbine. For a big tank, not having to put it under pressure could save a lot of money.

                      Right at the turbine, you want the temperature as high as is practical, because most turbines are a more efficient at higher temperature. But you probably don't want that in the storage system.

                      Salt is a pretty generic term referring to a large range of ionic compounds. It's never been clear to me if they mean sodium chloride or something else (phosphate, etc). I know nuclear reactors use some fluoride salt. If it is sodium chloride, I believe the melting point is more like 800C, not 400C.

                      I also imagine that they are borrowing a lot of technology from the nuclear industry, and that is what they were familiar with.

                      Just for fun, water can only be used from about 25C (ambient) to about 99C (just below boiling). It has a specific heat of 30.8 (J/K). That means it can store 2279 joules per gram (if I have my units right). NaCl can be used between 802C and 1412C and has a specific heat of 50.5, so you can store 30,805 joules per gram. I don't think the joule / gram is what they are targeting, but that gives you an idea of the properties.

                      It seems to me like startup would be a difficult task. And if something ever went wrong and all the salt solidified in the lines, oh man! I imagine corrosion is pretty difficult to manage also.

                      If anyone else has any other (better) clue about why they use salt, please share!

                      - Jay

                      --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Beck" <eco@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable. Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
                      > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
                      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I knew about this. What is the rational for choosing salt? Salt has more heat capacity than water? Betina
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      >
                      > From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@...>
                      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
                      > Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it. Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles. It makes sense to me. Of course the demand will create better systems in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand. The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > How does SolarReserve work? Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt. The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years. After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries. Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades. SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it. I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > As any thing else, there are always pros & cons. I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects. It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field. For more information see links below.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries. Disposing old batteries is not safe.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Ahmad Solomon
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > SOLAR-RESERVE
                      >
                      > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ <http://www.solar-reserve.com/>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html <http://www.solar-reserve.com/technology.html>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf <http://www.solar-reserve.com/technology/ProcessFlowDiagram.pdf>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada <http://www.solarfeeds.com/greentech-media/10405-solarreserve-lands-project-in-nevada>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > SOLAR-RESERVE
                      >
                      > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ <http://www.solar-reserve.com/>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html <http://www.solar-reserve.com/technology.html>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf <http://www.solar-reserve.com/technology/ProcessFlowDiagram.pdf>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada <http://www.solarfeeds.com/greentech-media/10405-solarreserve-lands-project-in-nevada>
                      >


                    • Solar Energy
                      I admit that 46 cents per KWH is exessive.  When I spoke to a VP few days ago, he told me that it is not cheap.  However they secure financing to build it
                      Message 10 of 28 , May 29 12:54 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I admit that 46 cents per KWH is exessive.  When I spoke to a VP few days ago, he told me that it is not cheap.  However they secure financing to build it and only sell the power.  It means the customers do not have to invest hundreds of millions in such projects.  All they have to do is just buy electricity at 46 cents per KWH.  It is not for residential usage; it is for industrial usage and by cities with insatiable lust for electric power like Las Vegas.  

                        --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@...> wrote:

                        From: Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@...>
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:40 AM

                         
                        I am saying there is no profitable gain.  Just because you could store the power, it makes no sense to do so.

                        It is a Time of Use thing, that perfectly fits with Solar Thermal.  Most electric power is used exactly at the time(s) of day that Solar Thermal Electricity (without storage) is produced.

                        Take a look at this Time of Use billing plan for Northern Nevada >>>

                        http://www.nvenergy .com/home/ paymentbilling/ timeofusenorth. cfm

                        Daytime, Peak Solar Thermal is worth 46 cents per KWH.  Deep night power is worth 8 cents per KWH.  That is a near 6 times difference.  Why would one choose to store 46 cent power from the day (rather than sell it then), and hold it into the night to sell it for 8 cents? 

                        Base Load Coal and Nukes own the night.  Power is already vastly surplus in the night.  To unburden Solar Thermal Generation from storage costs, makes it already cheaper than Coal.








                        --- On Fri, 5/28/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com> wrote:

                        From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com>
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:05 AM

                         
                        There is sometimes excess energy produced with solar thermal systems even from wind farms that could be harnessed or stored using the salt method however the main purpose is for nighttime energy generation. You cannot generate electricity from the sun at night....
                        I think you missed the point of the technology. The building costs of the system storage components does have a ROI and it tangible so I do not know why you think there is no productivity gain?


                        Regards 
                        John P. Matznick 
                        Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                        Green Tech Fusion
                        888.642.0226
                        www.GreenTechFusion .com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                        On May 28, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Philip Timmons wrote:


                         
                         

                        I knew about this.  What is the rational for choosing salt?  Salt has more heat capacity than water?  Betina

                         

                        From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
                        Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                         

                        And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is made.

                        The storage equipment tends to add between double or at least a third of the overall cost and produces no gain.

                        But other than that, it is great stuff! :) :) :)



                          

                        --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com> wrote:

                        From: Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com>
                        Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 10:02 AM

                         

                        Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable.  Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).

                         

                        For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.

                         

                        Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.

                         

                        From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
                        Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                         

                        The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand.  The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.

                         

                        How does SolarReserve work?  Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt.  The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years.  After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries.  Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.

                         

                        FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades.  SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it.  I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.

                         

                        As any thing else, there are always pros & cons.  I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects.  It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field.  For more information see links below.

                         

                        I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries.  Disposing old batteries is not safe.

                         

                        Ahmad Solomon

                         

                        SOLAR-RESERVE

                        http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                         

                        http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                         

                        http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                         

                        http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                         
                          
                         

                        SOLAR-RESERVE

                        http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                         

                        http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                         

                        http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                         

                        http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                         

                        I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it.  Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles.  It makes sense to me.  Of course the demand will create better systems  in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.

                         
                         






                      • Stephanie Thomas
                        Hi Everyone, I agree that geothermal is underutilized. Some of the research done in the geothermal lab at SMU indicates that oil and gas wells could be
                        Message 11 of 28 , May 29 6:53 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Everyone,

                          I agree that geothermal is underutilized.  Some of the research done in the geothermal lab at SMU indicates that oil and gas wells could be potential targets for geothermal energy, even here in Texas.  It could be a great use for all those abandoned wells out there.  Here's the link for their website--they have some interesting articles on there, and hold an annual geothermal conference.

                          http://smu.edu/geothermal/

                          Stephanie


                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                          From: stangfam@...
                          Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 17:19:40 -0700
                          Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                           

                          All of these are great emails! I am also in favor of CSP- Solar Thermal, both Mojave and inland San Diego County use them. We in Texas are fools not to use such technology. Another facet I believe in is geothermal. It just has to be geographically correct area of the US to be done. Geyserville Califonia, (see below in dry steam reservoirs) have been using geothermal generation since 1952? A quick and agile company could identify and submit applications for dry/wet wells in active areas. There is no oil to come gushing out, nor any radioactive materials to send into the suns orbit to get rid of. To me it's kind of like "wow, why didn't we do this a loong time ago" kind of scenario. Basically the same energy as our sun, but it's below our feet and it's still there at night too. :o
                          Bill Stange




                                                   

                          From: Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com>
                          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                          Sent: Fri, May 28, 2010 12:25:41 PM
                          Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                           

                          Solar Thermal Electricy Vs Solar Photovoltaic Electricity - 'No Profitable Gain' ?  

                           

                          In the past $ have always indicate otherwise due to big Solar Thermal advantages in efficiency, availablility, and scale.  It just did not happen because both NG and Coal electric power generation has been cheaper than both!

                           

                          Solar PV coverts at between 10 and 20 % maximum and can only sell power in high daylight which is about 1/3 of a 24 hour cycle.  Otherwise they need some storage mechanisms and batteries are not it.

                          If you must have power when the sun is gone,… Who Ya Gonna call?,…" Sun-Busters" ?

                           

                          Heat storage systems are designed to produce electricity over a full 24 hours, not just 8 daylight hours.  Steam Thermal Cycles also can reach higher than 30% eff.  So that extra 10% to 20% over the Solar PV available 24 hours, not 8 hours, actually becomes more like a 30% to 90% improvement over Solar PV. This can pay for a lot big Solar Thermal plants.  

                           

                          The problem is that while NG and Coal remain cheaper, it now also takes more investment to justify Solar Thermal Electricity because Solar PV panels is getting cheaper per Watt every month.  The best world has both big utility Solar Thermal Electricity plants and distributed Solar Photovoltaic Electricity.

                           

                           

                          From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Philip Timmons
                          Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 11:40 AM
                          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                          Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                           

                           

                          I am saying there is no profitable gain.  Just because you could store the power, it makes no sense to do so.

                          It is a Time of Use thing, that perfectly fits with Solar Thermal.  Most electric power is used exactly at the time(s) of day that Solar Thermal Electricity (without storage) is produced.

                          Take a look at this Time of Use billing plan for Northern Nevada >>>

                          http://www.nvenergy .com/home/ paymentbilling/ timeofusenorth. cfm

                          Daytime, Peak Solar Thermal is worth 46 cents per KWH.  Deep night power is worth 8 cents per KWH.  That is a near 6 times difference.  Why would one choose to store 46 cent power from the day (rather than sell it then), and hold it into the night to sell it for 8 cents? 

                          Base Load Coal and Nukes own the night.  Power is already vastly surplus in the night.  To unburden Solar Thermal Generation from storage costs, makes it already cheaper than Coal.








                          --- On Fri, 5/28/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com> wrote:


                          From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com>
                          Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:05 AM

                           

                          There is sometimes excess energy produced with solar thermal systems even from wind farms that could be harnessed or stored using the salt method however the main purpose is for nighttime energy generation. You cannot generate electricity from the sun at night....

                          I think you missed the point of the technology. The building costs of the system storage components does have a ROI and it tangible so I do not know why you think there is no productivity gain?

                           

                           

                          Regards 

                          John P. Matznick 

                          Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant

                          Green Tech Fusion

                          888.642.0226

                          www.GreenTechFusion .com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies

                           

                           

                           

                          On May 28, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Philip Timmons wrote:



                           

                          And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is made.

                          The storage equipment tends to add between double or at least a third of the overall cost and produces no gain.

                          But other than that, it is great stuff! :) :) :)



                            

                          --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com> wrote:


                          From: Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com>
                          Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 10:02 AM

                           

                           

                          Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable.  Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).

                           

                          For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.

                           

                          Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.

                           

                          From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
                          Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
                          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                          Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                           

                           

                          I knew about this.  What is the rational for choosing salt?  Salt has more heat capacity than water?  Betina

                           


                          From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                          Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
                          Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                           

                           

                          I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it.  Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles.  It makes sense to me.  Of course the demand will create better systems  in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.

                           

                          The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand.  The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.

                           

                          How does SolarReserve work?  Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt.  The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years.  After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries.  Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.

                           

                          FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades.  SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it.  I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.

                           

                          As any thing else, there are always pros & cons.  I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects.  It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field.  For more information see links below.

                           

                          I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries.  Disposing old batteries is not safe.

                           

                          Ahmad Solomon

                           

                          SOLAR-RESERVE

                          http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                           

                          http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                           

                          http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                           

                          http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                           

                            

                           

                          SOLAR-RESERVE

                          http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                           

                          http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                           

                          http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                           

                          http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                           

                           

                           

                           

                           




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                        • Philip Timmons
                          Ok . . .  Stepping back through some of the concepts . . . . The 46 cent part is because of Time Of Use -- not whether the source is Solar (of any form) or
                          Message 12 of 28 , May 29 7:24 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Ok . . . 

                            Stepping back through some of the concepts . . . .

                            The 46 cent part is because of Time Of Use -- not whether the source is Solar (of any form) or Nat Gas, or Nukes, or Coal, or Wind, or Hydro, or Geo-Thermal, or . . . .

                            Time of USE.  USE.  Not production.  Without regard to the source.  The USE is US -- all of US trying to do the same thing at the same time.  The big driver behind US and USE is Air Conditioning.  A/C is sole driver behind Summer Daytime Peak power being the premium. 

                            Take today.  Bright and Sunny all across Texas.  Highs in the 90's.  What are we all going to be doing by afternoon?  Turning on the A/C.  Not an industrial thing.  Not a "them" at the power plant (of any sort) thing.  It is an US thing.  Same here in Texas as in Nevada.  Take a look again that Nevada Time of Use plan . . .  Residential is right in the name.

                            "Residential Time of Use for Northern Service Territory"

                            http://www.nvenergy.com/home/paymentbilling/timeofusenorth.cfm

                            It is not driven by Industrial Use.  It is not driven by competing Sources of any source.  It is not driven (or even significantly reduced) by Compact Fluorescent Lighting or LED Lighting.  It is all about Air Conditioning.  And US.   We do not like to sweat.  :) :)

                            On the other side of the Clocked Time of USE, that Nevada Time Of Use plan gives electricity away at around cost for 8 cent during the deep night.

                            ======================

                            Back to Storage and Application. 

                            Since we use most power mostly during the day, especially on the Sunny Hot Days (all again, driven by US, all by our Time of USE . . .  And Solar Thermal produces best on those Sunny Hot Days, we will use every dime and dollar of Solar Thermal Electricity as it is produced, while it is produced.

                            If folks are really into storage, more sensible storage brings surplus power from the deep night and into the day -- here is  a sample.  This stores surplus power produced in the deep night for use in the day. 
                            >>>

                            http://www.consumersenergy.com/content.aspx?id=1830

                            That is the exact opposite of storing energy from the Heat of the Day (when everybody wants it) for use when nobody is using it nor wants it at night. 

                            Of course the real jump ahead would be to directly use Solar Thermal to directly cool us, and never even convert it to electricity. 
                            >>>

                            http://sopogy.com/

                            http://sopogy.com/solutions/?id=13


                            --- On Sat, 5/29/10, Solar Energy <WhySolar@...> wrote:

                            From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@...>
                            Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Saturday, May 29, 2010, 2:54 AM

                             

                            I admit that 46 cents per KWH is exessive.  When I spoke to a VP few days ago, he told me that it is not cheap.  However they secure financing to build it and only sell the power.  It means the customers do not have to invest hundreds of millions in such projects.  All they have to do is just buy electricity at 46 cents per KWH.  It is not for residential usage; it is for industrial usage and by cities with insatiable lust for electric power like Las Vegas.  

                            --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                            From: Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com>
                            Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:40 AM

                             
                            I am saying there is no profitable gain.  Just because you could store the power, it makes no sense to do so.

                            It is a Time of Use thing, that perfectly fits with Solar Thermal.  Most electric power is used exactly at the time(s) of day that Solar Thermal Electricity (without storage) is produced.

                            Take a look at this Time of Use billing plan for Northern Nevada >>>

                            http://www.nvenergy .com/home/ paymentbilling/ timeofusenorth. cfm

                            Daytime, Peak Solar Thermal is worth 46 cents per KWH.  Deep night power is worth 8 cents per KWH.  That is a near 6 times difference.  Why would one choose to store 46 cent power from the day (rather than sell it then), and hold it into the night to sell it for 8 cents? 

                            Base Load Coal and Nukes own the night.  Power is already vastly surplus in the night.  To unburden Solar Thermal Generation from storage costs, makes it already cheaper than Coal.








                            --- On Fri, 5/28/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com> wrote:

                            From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com>
                            Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:05 AM

                             
                            There is sometimes excess energy produced with solar thermal systems even from wind farms that could be harnessed or stored using the salt method however the main purpose is for nighttime energy generation. You cannot generate electricity from the sun at night....
                            I think you missed the point of the technology. The building costs of the system storage components does have a ROI and it tangible so I do not know why you think there is no productivity gain?


                            Regards 
                            John P. Matznick 
                            Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                            Green Tech Fusion
                            888.642.0226
                            www.GreenTechFusion .com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                            On May 28, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Philip Timmons wrote:


                            And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is made.

                            The storage equipment tends to add between double or at least a third of the overall cost and produces no gain.

                            But other than that, it is great stuff! :) :) :)



                              

                            --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com> wrote:

                            From: Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com>
                            Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 10:02 AM

                             

                            Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable.  Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).

                             

                            For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.

                             

                            Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.

                             

                            From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
                            Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                            Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                             
                             

                            I knew about this.  What is the rational for choosing salt?  Salt has more heat capacity than water?  Betina

                             

                            From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                            Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
                            Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                             

                             

                            I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it.  Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles.  It makes sense to me.  Of course the demand will create better systems  in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.

                             

                            The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand.  The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.

                             

                            How does SolarReserve work?  Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt.  The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years.  After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries.  Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.

                             

                            FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades.  SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it.  I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.

                             

                            As any thing else, there are always pros & cons.  I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects.  It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field.  For more information see links below.

                             

                            I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries.  Disposing old batteries is not safe.

                             

                            Ahmad Solomon

                             

                            SOLAR-RESERVE

                            http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                             

                            http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                             

                            http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                             

                            http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                             
                              
                             

                            SOLAR-RESERVE

                            http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                             

                            http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                             

                            http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                             

                            http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                             
                             







                          • Bill or Dorothy Swann
                            I might add that to this discussion, that if large scale adoption of electric vehicles happens over time - I think it is inevitable - that the daily use of
                            Message 13 of 28 , May 29 8:08 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I might add that to this discussion, that if large scale adoption of electric vehicles happens over time - I think it is inevitable - that the daily use of kWatts might invert, to where the peak occurs when most are charging their vehicles at 3 AM. I would be interested in comments.
                               
                              Thanks,Bill S
                              Ph 832-338-3080
                              www.watt-tracker.com
                              www.promotingevs.com
                              www.hstech.biz



                              From: Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@...>
                              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sat, May 29, 2010 9:24:25 AM
                              Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                               

                              Ok . . . 

                              Stepping back through some of the concepts . . . .

                              The 46 cent part is because of Time Of Use -- not whether the source is Solar (of any form) or Nat Gas, or Nukes, or Coal, or Wind, or Hydro, or Geo-Thermal, or . . . .

                              Time of USE.  USE.  Not production.  Without regard to the source.  The USE is US -- all of US trying to do the same thing at the same time.  The big driver behind US and USE is Air Conditioning.  A/C is sole driver behind Summer Daytime Peak power being the premium. 

                              Take today.  Bright and Sunny all across Texas.  Highs in the 90's.  What are we all going to be doing by afternoon?  Turning on the A/C.  Not an industrial thing.  Not a "them" at the power plant (of any sort) thing.  It is an US thing.  Same here in Texas as in Nevada.  Take a look again that Nevada Time of Use plan . . .  Residential is right in the name.

                              "Residential Time of Use for Northern Service Territory"

                              http://www.nvenergy .com/home/ paymentbilling/ timeofusenorth. cfm

                              It is not driven by Industrial Use.  It is not driven by competing Sources of any source.  It is not driven (or even significantly reduced) by Compact Fluorescent Lighting or LED Lighting.  It is all about Air Conditioning.  And US.   We do not like to sweat.  :) :)

                              On the other side of the Clocked Time of USE, that Nevada Time Of Use plan gives electricity away at around cost for 8 cent during the deep night.

                              ============ ========= =

                              Back to Storage and Application. 

                              Since we use most power mostly during the day, especially on the Sunny Hot Days (all again, driven by US, all by our Time of USE . . .  And Solar Thermal produces best on those Sunny Hot Days, we will use every dime and dollar of Solar Thermal Electricity as it is produced, while it is produced.

                              If folks are really into storage, more sensible storage brings surplus power from the deep night and into the day -- here is  a sample.  This stores surplus power produced in the deep night for use in the day. 
                              >>>

                              http://www.consumer senergy.com/ content.aspx? id=1830

                              That is the exact opposite of storing energy from the Heat of the Day (when everybody wants it) for use when nobody is using it nor wants it at night. 

                              Of course the real jump ahead would be to directly use Solar Thermal to directly cool us, and never even convert it to electricity. 
                              >>>

                              http://sopogy. com/

                              http://sopogy. com/solutions/ ?id=13


                              --- On Sat, 5/29/10, Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com> wrote:

                              From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                              Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Saturday, May 29, 2010, 2:54 AM

                               

                              I admit that 46 cents per KWH is exessive.  When I spoke to a VP few days ago, he told me that it is not cheap.  However they secure financing to build it and only sell the power.  It means the customers do not have to invest hundreds of millions in such projects.  All they have to do is just buy electricity at 46 cents per KWH.  It is not for residential usage; it is for industrial usage and by cities with insatiable lust for electric power like Las Vegas.  

                              --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                              From: Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com>
                              Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:40 AM

                               
                              I am saying there is no profitable gain.  Just because you could store the power, it makes no sense to do so.

                              It is a Time of Use thing, that perfectly fits with Solar Thermal.  Most electric power is used exactly at the time(s) of day that Solar Thermal Electricity (without storage) is produced.

                              Take a look at this Time of Use billing plan for Northern Nevada >>>

                              http://www.nvenergy .com/home/ paymentbilling/ timeofusenorth. cfm

                              Daytime, Peak Solar Thermal is worth 46 cents per KWH.  Deep night power is worth 8 cents per KWH.  That is a near 6 times difference.  Why would one choose to store 46 cent power from the day (rather than sell it then), and hold it into the night to sell it for 8 cents? 

                              Base Load Coal and Nukes own the night.  Power is already vastly surplus in the night.  To unburden Solar Thermal Generation from storage costs, makes it already cheaper than Coal.








                              --- On Fri, 5/28/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com> wrote:

                              From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com>
                              Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:05 AM

                               
                              There is sometimes excess energy produced with solar thermal systems even from wind farms that could be harnessed or stored using the salt method however the main purpose is for nighttime energy generation. You cannot generate electricity from the sun at night....
                              I think you missed the point of the technology. The building costs of the system storage components does have a ROI and it tangible so I do not know why you think there is no productivity gain?


                              Regards 
                              John P. Matznick 
                              Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                              Green Tech Fusion
                              888.642.0226
                              www.GreenTechFusion .com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                              On May 28, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Philip Timmons wrote:


                              And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is made.

                              The storage equipment tends to add between double or at least a third of the overall cost and produces no gain.

                              But other than that, it is great stuff! :) :) :)



                                

                              --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com> wrote:

                              From: Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com>
                              Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 10:02 AM

                               

                              Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable.  Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).

                               

                              For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.

                               

                              Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.

                               

                              From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
                              Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
                              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                              Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                               
                               

                              I knew about this.  What is the rational for choosing salt?  Salt has more heat capacity than water?  Betina

                               

                              From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
                              Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                               

                               

                              I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it.  Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles.  It makes sense to me.  Of course the demand will create better systems  in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.

                               

                              The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand.  The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.

                               

                              How does SolarReserve work?  Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt.  The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years.  After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries.  Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.

                               

                              FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades.  SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it.  I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.

                               

                              As any thing else, there are always pros & cons.  I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects.  It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field.  For more information see links below.

                               

                              I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries.  Disposing old batteries is not safe.

                               

                              Ahmad Solomon

                               

                              SOLAR-RESERVE

                              http://www.solar-reserve.com/

                               

                              http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                               

                              http://www.solar-reserve.com/technology/ProcessFlowDiagram.pdf

                               

                              http://www.solarfeeds.com/greentech-media/10405-solarreserve-lands-project-in-nevada

                               
                                
                               

                              SOLAR-RESERVE

                              http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                               

                              http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                               

                              http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                               

                              http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                               
                               







                            • William & Cynthia Stange
                              First and formost I would like to see some super-sleuthing into what happened to Tesla s electric vehicle design.His design from the 1930 s is still a
                              Message 14 of 28 , May 29 6:00 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                First and formost I would like to see some "super-sleuthing" into what happened to Tesla's electric vehicle design.His design from the 1930's is still a mystery. Why? As a component of electric vehicles the regenerative charging would have to be expanded upon. As far as physics involved I think it's obvious that electric motors win the prize at close to 90 % efficient as opposed to less than 20% efficient for combustion engines. My teenager would call that a "Duh." Unfortunately what I think is also inevitable is the way we drive, that will be the hardest conversion of all. Long associated with the freeedom in America is the automobile. Easy Mass transit will have to happen around major cities, combined with park and rides. The whole equation will have to look different, a very hard change for Americans.




                                ________________________________
                                From: Bill or Dorothy Swann <dbswann4@...>
                                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sat, May 29, 2010 10:08:18 AM
                                Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve


                                I might add that to this discussion, that if large scale adoption of electric vehicles happens over time - I think it is inevitable - that the daily use of kWatts might invert, to where the peak occurs when most are charging their vehicles at 3 AM. I would be interested in comments.
                              • Philip Timmons
                                Sure -- at least as far as the discussion part.  btw, Sorry to be the know-it-all-nerd on all this.  Keep in mind in much of this some of the top end
                                Message 15 of 28 , May 30 9:31 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Sure -- at least as far as the discussion part. 

                                  btw, Sorry to be the know-it-all-nerd on all this. 

                                  Keep in mind in much of this some of the top end business folks have some agendas.  I noticed that in particular regarding the "storage" part while doing some Large Solar Thermal design work.  After sitting back a while, I began to muse that is because the rest is so simple that the top end business folks who were looking ahead figured out they would not be needed unless all sorts of storage were "needed" -- whether it was/is needed or not.

                                  You asked about vehicles, and the gotta-have, gotta-have, gotta-have storage meme pops up in that realm, too.  But maybe let's start with transportation in general, and specifically ground transportation.  That is a good place to start because it is presently the largest single oil-consuming sector in America.  Take US off Oil for Ground Transportation, and we will stop bleeding debt, and significantly reduce air and water pollution -- so that is pretty good for most everyone . . .  except for the folks who live from the Oil Stream.

                                  Most folks on at least some level are aware that electric ground transportation exists and works well, and has for some hundred years . . .  with No Storage.  Subways, many light-rail trains, and other industrial vehicles operate on fully electric power directly from line power, and at most use a battery or generator as a back-up power source only for a power-failure condition. 

                                  Looking at transportation use -- which again is a Time Of Use thing -- most transportation goes on during the day.  So why would we start into the matter by starting with generating the power during the night, and then storing it to use in the day?  As with the Air Conditioning issues -- just make the power from Solar Thermal sources -- during the day -- during the Peak -- and use it then during the peak.  No Storage Needed.  Pretty simple if you do not chase too many of other (industry) folks' rabbit trails.  :) :)

                                  Should we go deeper?














                                  --- On Sat, 5/29/10, Bill or Dorothy Swann <dbswann4@...> wrote:

                                  From: Bill or Dorothy Swann <dbswann4@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Saturday, May 29, 2010, 10:08 AM

                                   

                                  I might add that to this discussion, that if large scale adoption of electric vehicles happens over time - I think it is inevitable - that the daily use of kWatts might invert, to where the peak occurs when most are charging their vehicles at 3 AM. I would be interested in comments.
                                   
                                  Thanks,Bill S
                                  Ph 832-338-3080
                                  www.watt-tracker. com
                                  www.promotingevs.com
                                  www.hstech.biz



                                  From: Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com>
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                  Sent: Sat, May 29, 2010 9:24:25 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                   

                                  Ok . . . 

                                  Stepping back through some of the concepts . . . .

                                  The 46 cent part is because of Time Of Use -- not whether the source is Solar (of any form) or Nat Gas, or Nukes, or Coal, or Wind, or Hydro, or Geo-Thermal, or . . . .

                                  Time of USE.  USE.  Not production.  Without regard to the source.  The USE is US -- all of US trying to do the same thing at the same time.  The big driver behind US and USE is Air Conditioning.  A/C is sole driver behind Summer Daytime Peak power being the premium. 

                                  Take today.  Bright and Sunny all across Texas.  Highs in the 90's.  What are we all going to be doing by afternoon?  Turning on the A/C.  Not an industrial thing.  Not a "them" at the power plant (of any sort) thing.  It is an US thing.  Same here in Texas as in Nevada.  Take a look again that Nevada Time of Use plan . . .  Residential is right in the name.

                                  "Residential Time of Use for Northern Service Territory"

                                  http://www.nvenergy .com/home/ paymentbilling/ timeofusenorth. cfm

                                  It is not driven by Industrial Use.  It is not driven by competing Sources of any source.  It is not driven (or even significantly reduced) by Compact Fluorescent Lighting or LED Lighting.  It is all about Air Conditioning.  And US.   We do not like to sweat.  :) :)

                                  On the other side of the Clocked Time of USE, that Nevada Time Of Use plan gives electricity away at around cost for 8 cent during the deep night.

                                  ============ ========= =

                                  Back to Storage and Application. 

                                  Since we use most power mostly during the day, especially on the Sunny Hot Days (all again, driven by US, all by our Time of USE . . .  And Solar Thermal produces best on those Sunny Hot Days, we will use every dime and dollar of Solar Thermal Electricity as it is produced, while it is produced.

                                  If folks are really into storage, more sensible storage brings surplus power from the deep night and into the day -- here is  a sample.  This stores surplus power produced in the deep night for use in the day.  >>>

                                  http://www.consumer senergy.com/ content.aspx? id=1830

                                  That is the exact opposite of storing energy from the Heat of the Day (when everybody wants it) for use when nobody is using it nor wants it at night. 

                                  Of course the real jump ahead would be to directly use Solar Thermal to directly cool us, and never even convert it to electricity.  >>>

                                  http://sopogy. com/

                                  http://sopogy. com/solutions/ ?id=13


                                  --- On Sat, 5/29/10, Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                  From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Saturday, May 29, 2010, 2:54 AM

                                   

                                  I admit that 46 cents per KWH is exessive.  When I spoke to a VP few days ago, he told me that it is not cheap.  However they secure financing to build it and only sell the power.  It means the customers do not have to invest hundreds of millions in such projects.  All they have to do is just buy electricity at 46 cents per KWH.  It is not for residential usage; it is for industrial usage and by cities with insatiable lust for electric power like Las Vegas.  

                                  --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                  From: Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com>
                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:40 AM

                                   
                                  I am saying there is no profitable gain.  Just because you could store the power, it makes no sense to do so.

                                  It is a Time of Use thing, that perfectly fits with Solar Thermal.  Most electric power is used exactly at the time(s) of day that Solar Thermal Electricity (without storage) is produced.

                                  Take a look at this Time of Use billing plan for Northern Nevada >>>

                                  http://www.nvenergy .com/home/ paymentbilling/ timeofusenorth. cfm

                                  Daytime, Peak Solar Thermal is worth 46 cents per KWH.  Deep night power is worth 8 cents per KWH.  That is a near 6 times difference.  Why would one choose to store 46 cent power from the day (rather than sell it then), and hold it into the night to sell it for 8 cents? 

                                  Base Load Coal and Nukes own the night.  Power is already vastly surplus in the night.  To unburden Solar Thermal Generation from storage costs, makes it already cheaper than Coal.








                                  --- On Fri, 5/28/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com> wrote:

                                  From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com>
                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:05 AM

                                   
                                  There is sometimes excess energy produced with solar thermal systems even from wind farms that could be harnessed or stored using the salt method however the main purpose is for nighttime energy generation. You cannot generate electricity from the sun at night....
                                  I think you missed the point of the technology. The building costs of the system storage components does have a ROI and it tangible so I do not know why you think there is no productivity gain?


                                  Regards 
                                  John P. Matznick 
                                  Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                                  Green Tech Fusion
                                  888.642.0226
                                  www.GreenTechFusion .com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                                  On May 28, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Philip Timmons wrote:


                                  And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is made.

                                  The storage equipment tends to add between double or at least a third of the overall cost and produces no gain.

                                  But other than that, it is great stuff! :) :) :)



                                    

                                  --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com> wrote:

                                  From: Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com>
                                  Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 10:02 AM

                                   

                                  Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable.  Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).

                                   

                                  For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.

                                   

                                  Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.

                                   

                                  From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
                                  Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                   
                                   

                                  I knew about this.  What is the rational for choosing salt?  Salt has more heat capacity than water?  Betina

                                   

                                  From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                  Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
                                  Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                   

                                   

                                  I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it.  Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles.  It makes sense to me.  Of course the demand will create better systems  in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.

                                   

                                  The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand.  The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.

                                   

                                  How does SolarReserve work?  Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt.  The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years.  After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries.  Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.

                                   

                                  FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades.  SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it.  I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.

                                   

                                  As any thing else, there are always pros & cons.  I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects.  It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field.  For more information see links below.

                                   

                                  I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries.  Disposing old batteries is not safe.

                                   

                                  Ahmad Solomon

                                   

                                  SOLAR-RESERVE

                                  http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                                   

                                  http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                                   

                                  http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                                   

                                  http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                                   
                                    
                                   

                                  SOLAR-RESERVE

                                  http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                                   

                                  http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                                   

                                  http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                                   

                                  http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                                   
                                   








                                • Bill or Dorothy Swann
                                  No need to go deeper. I might mention that Reliant is planning to demo a V2G application. The idea is that a large fleet of battery electric vehicles
                                  Message 16 of 28 , May 30 9:45 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    No need to go deeper. I might mention that Reliant is planning to demo a V2G application. The idea is that a large fleet of battery electric vehicles represents a lot of energy storage. Why not put wheels under the batteries?
                                     
                                    Thanks,Bill S
                                    Ph 832-338-3080
                                    www.watt-tracker.com
                                    www.promotingevs.com
                                    www.hstech.biz



                                    From: Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@...>
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sun, May 30, 2010 11:31:59 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                     

                                    Sure -- at least as far as the discussion part. 

                                    btw, Sorry to be the know-it-all- nerd on all this. 

                                    Keep in mind in much of this some of the top end business folks have some agendas.  I noticed that in particular regarding the "storage" part while doing some Large Solar Thermal design work.  After sitting back a while, I began to muse that is because the rest is so simple that the top end business folks who were looking ahead figured out they would not be needed unless all sorts of storage were "needed" -- whether it was/is needed or not.

                                    You asked about vehicles, and the gotta-have, gotta-have, gotta-have storage meme pops up in that realm, too.  But maybe let's start with transportation in general, and specifically ground transportation.  That is a good place to start because it is presently the largest single oil-consuming sector in America.  Take US off Oil for Ground Transportation, and we will stop bleeding debt, and significantly reduce air and water pollution -- so that is pretty good for most everyone . . .  except for the folks who live from the Oil Stream.

                                    Most folks on at least some level are aware that electric ground transportation exists and works well, and has for some hundred years . . .  with No Storage.  Subways, many light-rail trains, and other industrial vehicles operate on fully electric power directly from line power, and at most use a battery or generator as a back-up power source only for a power-failure condition. 

                                    Looking at transportation use -- which again is a Time Of Use thing -- most transportation goes on during the day.  So why would we start into the matter by starting with generating the power during the night, and then storing it to use in the day?  As with the Air Conditioning issues -- just make the power from Solar Thermal sources -- during the day -- during the Peak -- and use it then during the peak.  No Storage Needed.  Pretty simple if you do not chase too many of other (industry) folks' rabbit trails.  :) :)

                                    Should we go deeper?














                                    --- On Sat, 5/29/10, Bill or Dorothy Swann <dbswann4@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                    From: Bill or Dorothy Swann <dbswann4@yahoo. com>
                                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                    Date: Saturday, May 29, 2010, 10:08 AM

                                     

                                    I might add that to this discussion, that if large scale adoption of electric vehicles happens over time - I think it is inevitable - that the daily use of kWatts might invert, to where the peak occurs when most are charging their vehicles at 3 AM. I would be interested in comments.
                                     
                                    Thanks,Bill S
                                    Ph 832-338-3080
                                    www.watt-tracker. com
                                    www.promotingevs. com
                                    www.hstech.biz



                                    From: Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com>
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                    Sent: Sat, May 29, 2010 9:24:25 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                     

                                    Ok . . . 

                                    Stepping back through some of the concepts . . . .

                                    The 46 cent part is because of Time Of Use -- not whether the source is Solar (of any form) or Nat Gas, or Nukes, or Coal, or Wind, or Hydro, or Geo-Thermal, or . . . .

                                    Time of USE.  USE.  Not production.  Without regard to the source.  The USE is US -- all of US trying to do the same thing at the same time.  The big driver behind US and USE is Air Conditioning.  A/C is sole driver behind Summer Daytime Peak power being the premium. 

                                    Take today.  Bright and Sunny all across Texas.  Highs in the 90's.  What are we all going to be doing by afternoon?  Turning on the A/C.  Not an industrial thing.  Not a "them" at the power plant (of any sort) thing.  It is an US thing.  Same here in Texas as in Nevada.  Take a look again that Nevada Time of Use plan . . .  Residential is right in the name.

                                    "Residential Time of Use for Northern Service Territory"

                                    http://www.nvenergy .com/home/ paymentbilling/ timeofusenorth. cfm

                                    It is not driven by Industrial Use.  It is not driven by competing Sources of any source.  It is not driven (or even significantly reduced) by Compact Fluorescent Lighting or LED Lighting.  It is all about Air Conditioning.  And US.   We do not like to sweat.  :) :)

                                    On the other side of the Clocked Time of USE, that Nevada Time Of Use plan gives electricity away at around cost for 8 cent during the deep night.

                                    ============ ========= =

                                    Back to Storage and Application. 

                                    Since we use most power mostly during the day, especially on the Sunny Hot Days (all again, driven by US, all by our Time of USE . . .  And Solar Thermal produces best on those Sunny Hot Days, we will use every dime and dollar of Solar Thermal Electricity as it is produced, while it is produced.

                                    If folks are really into storage, more sensible storage brings surplus power from the deep night and into the day -- here is  a sample.  This stores surplus power produced in the deep night for use in the day.  >>>

                                    http://www.consumer senergy.com/ content.aspx? id=1830

                                    That is the exact opposite of storing energy from the Heat of the Day (when everybody wants it) for use when nobody is using it nor wants it at night. 

                                    Of course the real jump ahead would be to directly use Solar Thermal to directly cool us, and never even convert it to electricity.  >>>

                                    http://sopogy. com/

                                    http://sopogy. com/solutions/ ?id=13


                                    --- On Sat, 5/29/10, Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                    From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                    Date: Saturday, May 29, 2010, 2:54 AM

                                     

                                    I admit that 46 cents per KWH is exessive.  When I spoke to a VP few days ago, he told me that it is not cheap.  However they secure financing to build it and only sell the power.  It means the customers do not have to invest hundreds of millions in such projects.  All they have to do is just buy electricity at 46 cents per KWH.  It is not for residential usage; it is for industrial usage and by cities with insatiable lust for electric power like Las Vegas.  

                                    --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                    From: Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com>
                                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                    Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:40 AM

                                     
                                    I am saying there is no profitable gain.  Just because you could store the power, it makes no sense to do so.

                                    It is a Time of Use thing, that perfectly fits with Solar Thermal.  Most electric power is used exactly at the time(s) of day that Solar Thermal Electricity (without storage) is produced.

                                    Take a look at this Time of Use billing plan for Northern Nevada >>>

                                    http://www.nvenergy .com/home/ paymentbilling/ timeofusenorth. cfm

                                    Daytime, Peak Solar Thermal is worth 46 cents per KWH.  Deep night power is worth 8 cents per KWH.  That is a near 6 times difference.  Why would one choose to store 46 cent power from the day (rather than sell it then), and hold it into the night to sell it for 8 cents? 

                                    Base Load Coal and Nukes own the night.  Power is already vastly surplus in the night.  To unburden Solar Thermal Generation from storage costs, makes it already cheaper than Coal.








                                    --- On Fri, 5/28/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com> wrote:

                                    From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com>
                                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                    Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:05 AM

                                     
                                    There is sometimes excess energy produced with solar thermal systems even from wind farms that could be harnessed or stored using the salt method however the main purpose is for nighttime energy generation. You cannot generate electricity from the sun at night....
                                    I think you missed the point of the technology. The building costs of the system storage components does have a ROI and it tangible so I do not know why you think there is no productivity gain?


                                    Regards 
                                    John P. Matznick 
                                    Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                                    Green Tech Fusion
                                    888.642.0226
                                    www.GreenTechFusion .com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                                    On May 28, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Philip Timmons wrote:


                                    And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is made.

                                    The storage equipment tends to add between double or at least a third of the overall cost and produces no gain.

                                    But other than that, it is great stuff! :) :) :)



                                      

                                    --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com> wrote:

                                    From: Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com>
                                    Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                    Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 10:02 AM

                                     

                                    Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable.  Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).

                                     

                                    For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.

                                     

                                    Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.

                                     

                                    From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
                                    Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                     
                                     

                                    I knew about this.  What is the rational for choosing salt?  Salt has more heat capacity than water?  Betina

                                     

                                    From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                    Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
                                    Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                     

                                     

                                    I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it.  Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles.  It makes sense to me.  Of course the demand will create better systems  in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.

                                     

                                    The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand.  The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.

                                     

                                    How does SolarReserve work?  Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt.  The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years.  After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries.  Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.

                                     

                                    FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades.  SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it.  I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.

                                     

                                    As any thing else, there are always pros & cons.  I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects.  It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field.  For more information see links below.

                                     

                                    I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries.  Disposing old batteries is not safe.

                                     

                                    Ahmad Solomon

                                     

                                    SOLAR-RESERVE

                                    http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                                     

                                    http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                                     

                                    http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                                     

                                    http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                                     
                                      
                                     

                                    SOLAR-RESERVE

                                    http://www.solar- reserve.com/

                                     

                                    http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html

                                     

                                    http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf

                                     

                                    http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada

                                     
                                     








                                  • Philip Timmons
                                    What about dump the batteries, and just let the vehicles pick up the power from the grid in real time, as they are using the power? What is with all the
                                    Message 17 of 28 , May 30 10:45 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      What about dump the batteries, and just let the vehicles pick up the power from the grid in real time, as they are using the power?

                                      What is with all the storage?  It is all lossy and typically doubles the costs -- same as where this conversation started with storing Solar Thermal energy.

                                      This system couples power from the roadway to the vehicle >>>

                                      http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2010-03/koreas-online-electric-vehicle-gathers-power-road-wirelessly

                                      I sort of like roadway methods as cities, counties, states, and the feds own the roadways and this could help fund the country and local .gov rather than funding corporations.




                                      --- On Sun, 5/30/10, Bill or Dorothy Swann <dbswann4@...> wrote:

                                      From: Bill or Dorothy Swann <dbswann4@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010, 11:45 AM







                                       









                                      No need to go deeper. I might mention that Reliant is planning to demo a V2G application. The idea is that a large fleet of battery electric vehicles represents a lot of energy storage. Why not put wheels under the batteries?
                                       Thanks,Bill S
                                      Ph 832-338-3080
                                      www.watt-tracker. com
                                      www.promotingevs. com
                                      www.hstech.biz

                                      From: Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com>
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                      Sent: Sun, May 30, 2010 11:31:59 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve








                                       






                                      Sure -- at least as far as the discussion part. 

                                      btw, Sorry to be the know-it-all- nerd on all this. 

                                      Keep in mind in much of this some of the top end business folks have some agendas.  I noticed that in particular regarding the "storage" part while doing some Large Solar Thermal design work.  After sitting back a while, I began to muse that is because the rest is so simple that the top end business folks who were looking ahead figured out they would not be needed unless all sorts of storage were "needed" -- whether it was/is needed or not.

                                      You asked about vehicles, and the gotta-have, gotta-have, gotta-have storage meme pops up in that realm, too.  But maybe let's start with transportation in general, and specifically ground transportation.  That is a good place to start because it is
                                      presently the largest
                                      single oil-consuming sector in America.  Take US off Oil for Ground Transportation, and we will stop bleeding debt, and significantly reduce air and water pollution -- so that is pretty good for most everyone . . .  except for the folks who live from the Oil Stream.

                                      Most folks on at least some level are aware that electric ground transportation exists and works well, and has for some hundred years . . .  with No Storage.  Subways, many light-rail trains, and other industrial vehicles operate on fully electric power directly from line power, and at most use a battery or generator as a back-up power source only for a power-failure condition. 

                                      Looking at transportation use -- which again is a Time Of Use thing -- most transportation goes on during the day.  So why would we start into the matter by starting with generating the power during the night, and then storing it to use in the day?  As with the Air
                                      Conditioning issues -- just make the power from Solar Thermal sources -- during the day -- during the Peak -- and use it then during the peak.  No Storage Needed.  Pretty simple if you do not chase too many of other (industry) folks' rabbit trails.  :) :)

                                      Should we go deeper?














                                      --- On Sat, 5/29/10, Bill or Dorothy Swann <dbswann4@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                      From: Bill or Dorothy Swann <dbswann4@yahoo. com>
                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Saturday, May 29, 2010, 10:08 AM







                                       






                                      I might add that to this discussion, that if large scale adoption of electric vehicles happens over time - I think it is inevitable - that the daily use of kWatts might invert, to where the peak occurs when most are charging their vehicles at 3 AM. I would be interested in comments.
                                       Thanks,Bill S
                                      Ph 832-338-3080
                                      www.watt-tracker. com
                                      www.promotingevs. com
                                      www.hstech.biz

                                      From: Philip
                                      Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com>
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                      Sent: Sat, May 29, 2010 9:24:25 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve









                                       






                                      Ok . . . 



                                      Stepping back through some of the concepts . . . .



                                      The 46 cent part is because of Time Of Use -- not whether the source is
                                      Solar (of any form) or Nat Gas, or Nukes, or Coal, or Wind, or Hydro, or
                                      Geo-Thermal, or . . . .



                                      Time of USE.  USE.  Not production.  Without regard to the source.  The
                                      USE is US -- all of US trying to do the same thing at the same time. 
                                      The big driver behind US and USE is Air Conditioning.  A/C is sole
                                      driver behind Summer Daytime Peak power being the premium. 



                                      Take today.  Bright and Sunny all across Texas.  Highs in the 90's. 
                                      What are we all going to be doing by afternoon?  Turning on the A/C. 
                                      Not an industrial thing.  Not a "them" at the power plant (of any sort)
                                      thing.  It is an US thing.  Same here in Texas as in Nevada.  Take a
                                      look again that Nevada Time of Use plan . . .  Residential is right in
                                      the name.



                                      "Residential Time of Use for Northern Service Territory"



                                      http://www.nvenergy .com/home/ paymentbilling/ timeofusenorth. cfm



                                      It is not driven by Industrial Use.  It is not driven by competing
                                      Sources of any source.  It is not driven (or even significantly reduced)
                                      by Compact Fluorescent Lighting or LED Lighting.  It is all about Air
                                      Conditioning.  And US.   We do not like to sweat.  :) :)



                                      On the other side of the Clocked Time of USE, that Nevada Time Of Use
                                      plan gives electricity away at around cost for 8
                                      cent during the deep night.



                                      ============ ========= =



                                      Back to Storage and Application. 



                                      Since we use most power mostly during the day, especially on the Sunny
                                      Hot Days (all again, driven by US, all by our Time of USE . . .  And
                                      Solar Thermal produces best on those Sunny Hot Days, we will use every
                                      dime and dollar of Solar Thermal Electricity as it is produced, while it
                                      is produced.



                                      If folks are really into storage, more sensible storage brings surplus
                                      power from the deep night and into the day -- here is  a sample.  This
                                      stores surplus power produced in the deep night for use in the day. 
                                      >>>



                                      http://www.consumer senergy.com/ content.aspx? id=1830



                                      That is the exact opposite of storing energy from the Heat of the Day
                                      (when everybody wants it) for use when nobody is using it nor wants it
                                      at night. 



                                      Of course the real jump ahead would be to directly use Solar Thermal to
                                      directly cool us, and never even convert it to electricity. 
                                      >>>



                                      http://sopogy. com/



                                      http://sopogy. com/solutions/ ?id=13



                                      --- On Sat, 5/29/10, Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                      From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Saturday, May 29, 2010, 2:54 AM







                                       






                                      I admit that 46 cents per KWH is exessive.  When I spoke to a VP few days ago, he told me that it is not cheap.  However they secure financing to build it and only sell the power.  It means the customers do not have to invest hundreds of millions in such projects.  All they have to do is just buy electricity at 46 cents per KWH.  It is not for residential usage; it is for industrial usage and by cities with insatiable lust for electric power like Las Vegas.  

                                      --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com> wrote:


                                      From: Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:40 AM


                                       





                                      I am saying there is no profitable gain.  Just because you could store the power, it makes no sense to do so.

                                      It is a Time of Use thing, that perfectly fits with Solar Thermal.  Most electric power is used exactly at the time(s) of day that Solar Thermal Electricity (without storage) is produced.

                                      Take a look at this Time of Use billing plan for Northern Nevada >>>

                                      http://www.nvenergy .com/home/ paymentbilling/ timeofusenorth. cfm

                                      Daytime, Peak Solar Thermal is worth 46 cents per KWH.  Deep night power is worth 8 cents per KWH.  That is a near 6 times difference.  Why would one choose to store 46 cent power from the day (rather than sell it then), and hold it into the night to sell it for 8 cents? 

                                      Base Load Coal and Nukes own the night.  Power is already vastly surplus in the
                                      night.  To
                                      unburden Solar Thermal Generation from storage costs, makes it
                                      already
                                      cheaper than Coal.









                                      --- On Fri, 5/28/10, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com> wrote:


                                      From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@greentec hfusion.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 11:05 AM


                                       

                                      There is sometimes excess energy produced with solar thermal systems even from wind farms that could be harnessed or stored using the salt method however the main purpose is for nighttime energy generation. You cannot generate electricity from the sun at night....
                                      I think you missed the point of the technology. The building costs of the system storage components does have a ROI and it tangible so I do not know why you think there is no productivity gain?













                                      Regards 
                                      John P. Matznick 
                                      Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                                      Green Tech Fusion
                                      888.642.0226
                                      www.GreenTechFusion .com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies





                                      On May 28, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Philip Timmons wrote:











                                      And of course in practice, there is little point in storing any of the power, as heat or electricity, as it can all be used in the day, real-time, while it is made.

                                      The storage equipment tends to add between double or at least a third of the overall cost and produces no gain.

                                      But other than that, it is great stuff! :) :) :)



                                        

                                      --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com> wrote:


                                      From: Gary Beck <eco@eco-holdings. com>
                                      Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 10:02 AM


                                       




                                      Salt is cheap, readily available, and chemically predicatable.  Molten Salt and Salt-brine solutions have been recognized for a long time for their ability to store and then release heat (from greek geothermal health spas pools to nuclear plants).
                                       

                                      For solar, salt melts at reasonably low temperature just above 400 degrees but then does not break apart into gases until a much much higher temperature not really attainable by solar unless you really try. This means you do not need to design a tower and piping system to resist gas pressures.
                                       

                                      Besides a good natural temperature range of operation, as it cools at night salt can return above 90% of the heat energy put into it during the day.
                                       



                                      From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of betina wolfowicz
                                      Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:18 AM
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                       

                                       






                                      I knew about this.  What is the rational for choosing salt?  Salt has more heat capacity than water?  Betina

                                       





                                      From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@yahoo. com>
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                      Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 4:59:27 AM
                                      Subject: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                       





                                       

                                      I visit HREG at the rate of once a month to find out if there are new technologies out there that might easily replace energy produced from fossil fuel and I think I have found it.  Although I have known about this SolarReserve plant near Mohave, California for over 4 or 5 years, it is only now that I have looked at the deisgn & operation principles.  It makes sense to me.  Of course the demand will create better systems  in the futur but I believe this is currently the best available system in utilizing solar enengy on large scale plants in terms of tens or hundreds of megawatts.
                                       

                                      The number one challenge to the renewable energy - solar in this case - is how to store energy and how to use it based on demand.  The secret is salt, which is abundantly & naturally available.
                                       

                                      How does SolarReserve work?  Energy is reflected & directed at the core of a tower at the top filled with salt.  The salt is heated to 1050 deg F to create molten salt, which is pumped to heat exchangers to produce steam and the steam drives power generators. That's it. We have been using steam to power generators for perhaps 100 years.  After all we powered trains with steam - fueled by coal - for over 1-1/2 centuries.  Why not use it in combination with molten salt heated with solar energy.
                                       

                                      FYI, we have used molten salt to produce steam in the oilfields and refineries for many decades.  SolarReserve just took this existing technology of steam generation and improved on it.  I kinda like it because I am very familiar with molten salt used in energy transfer in the oilfields.
                                       

                                      As any thing else, there are always pros & cons.  I suspect animal lovers will scream once they find out what this unit might do to birds and flying insects.  It will fry a bird in mid air in a second if it flies into the beam of concentrated sun light toward the tower in the center of solar mirrors field.  For more information see links below.
                                       

                                      I believe storing energy in salt is superior to using batteries.  Disposing old batteries is not safe.
                                       

                                      Ahmad Solomon
                                       

                                      SOLAR-RESERVE
                                      http://www.solar- reserve.com/
                                       

                                      http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html
                                       

                                      http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf
                                       

                                      http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada
                                       

                                        

                                       

                                      SOLAR-RESERVE
                                      http://www.solar- reserve.com/
                                       

                                      http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology. html
                                       

                                      http://www.solar- reserve.com/ technology/ ProcessFlowDiagr am.pdf
                                       

                                      http://www.solarfee ds.com/greentech -media/10405- solarreserve- lands-project- in-nevada
                                       

                                       
                                    • mkewert@comcast.net
                                      Phillip, Note that utility peak demands extend several hours after solar production peaks: http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy10osti/45653.pdf At least a few hours of
                                      Message 18 of 28 , May 30 1:09 PM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Phillip,
                                        Note that utility peak demands extend several hours after solar production peaks:
                                        http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy10osti/45653.pdf

                                        At least a few hours of storage will be very valuable for displacing other generation sources.

                                        Mike
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Philip Timmons" <philiptimmons@...>
                                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 11:31:59 AM GMT -06:00 Guadalajara / Mexico City / Monterrey
                                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                         


                                      • Philip Timmons
                                        Sure California s Peak Use is not too different than ours (Texas). And California is where I have done the larger (utility) scale Solar Thermal design work.
                                        Message 19 of 28 , May 30 9:35 PM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Sure California's Peak Use is not too different than ours (Texas).

                                          And California is where I have done the larger (utility) scale Solar Thermal design work.

                                          They tend to trend about 10 years ahead of us on many things -- good or bad.

                                          So if you work with their example of figure 2 -- "2009 Summer Day in California,"  in that document -- It shows the typical peak rising up somewhere between noon and 2 pm, and dropping off somewhere between 6 and 8 pm, with the Peak of the Peak at about 4 pm.  Is that about a fair statement?

                                          Very closely matches ours, and if you ever happen to see the pattern of the Texas hydro dams (yeah we have some of those) like at Lake Texoma -- They open full bore at 4 pm, and run until about 8 pm.

                                          We all match on all of that.  However, So does Solar Thermal.  When Solar Thermal wakes up in the morning, it does so relatively slowly -- especially compared to PV.  You probably know that PV closely follows the LIGHT of day that the Sun produces.  But no so much with Solar Thermal. 

                                          With Solar Thermal, there is generally a bunch of hardware to heat up with incoming energy of the Solar Thermal.  Depending on the style of the mechanical design, there are pipes, tubes, heat exchangers, steam separators/drums/tanks to heat up.  Along with heat transfer medium, itself -- whether Oil, or Water, or . . .   at any rate a Whole Lot of Mass to Heat up before the thing even starts spitting steam at the turbines. 

                                          That delay (sort of a hysteresis) can take a couple hours on the front end -- making the Solar Thermal production rise almost in-line with the same figure from your link.  And on the back side -- the evening, as it were -- those same delays show up again.  It takes a couple hours for the residual heat of the equipment to cool down and the turbines to spin down.  Some designs coast well into to evening with no real intent of storage.

                                          All of this makes Solar Thermal hit the overall Peak Use quite well.  Now if you step back and look at what causes the Peak Use to start with, you can sort of have an Ah-Ha! moment.  The Daily Peak Use is caused by the Daily Residual Heat -- the same thing we humans are attempting to fight with our Air Conditioning.  The Peak Use we are looking at in that Figure 2 is simply Peak Air Conditioning Use. 

                                          Simple Solar Thermal (without storage) experiences that same residual heat in its basic operation.  Why not work with nature, instead of trying to fight it?  How simple is that?



                                          --- On Sun, 5/30/10, mkewert@... <mkewert@...> wrote:

                                          From: mkewert@... <mkewert@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010, 3:09 PM

                                           

                                          Phillip,
                                          Note that utility peak demands extend several hours after solar production peaks:
                                          http://www.nrel. gov/docs/ fy10osti/ 45653.pdf

                                          At least a few hours of storage will be very valuable for displacing other generation sources.

                                          Mike
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Philip Timmons" <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com>
                                          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                          Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 11:31:59 AM GMT -06:00 Guadalajara / Mexico City / Monterrey
                                          Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                           



                                        • William & Cynthia Stange
                                          If that is the case, and it s a good one. Peak and the larger percent of usage is to cool our homes,no? If we as a nation built homes to be ten-times more
                                          Message 20 of 28 , May 31 6:32 AM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            If that is the case, and it's a good one. Peak and the larger percent of usage is to cool our homes,no? If we as a nation built homes to be ten-times more efficient at resisting the heat load THAT electricity could be used somewhere else as a "swap" of peak usage/storage combination to "charge" or shore up EV's? Taking into consideration that electric rail use ( both public transpo and transport of goods) could be utilized as well. Just thinking a what the future could look like. Since energy will become quite a lot more expensive to build, feed with fossil fuel to keep up with increasing loads, it seems that the most logical solution is to super-double down the way we build and live in our homes. Being absolutely more specific of environmental regions. As ours is hot and humid, with flooding likely from time to time, and a drought thrown in every couple of years? Hmmm... Design concepts are begining to get more complicated!
                                            LaVerne? Instead of concrete slab foundations we should have used bright white concrete roof structures instead, we're upside down!!
                                            Thank you for the interesting emails all of you.
                                            Bill
                                          • mkewert@comcast.net
                                            Phillip, I agree with your logic IF there really is that much inherent thermal capacitance in the solar trough plants. I was surprised to find this NREL
                                            Message 21 of 28 , May 31 8:50 AM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Phillip,
                                              I agree with your logic IF there really is that much inherent thermal capacitance in the solar trough plants.  I was surprised to find this NREL document that seems to support your position from an economic standpoint, assuming their model is good.  See Fig. 3.  I don't understand why levelized cost would go up again for larger plants (regardless of storage).  Do you?
                                              http://www.nrel.gov/csp/pdfs/42852.pdf

                                              Do you have any power plant kW output curves from the SEGS in CA?  That would really convince me.
                                              Mike
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Philip Timmons" <philiptimmons@...>
                                              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 11:35:11 PM GMT -06:00 Guadalajara / Mexico City / Monterrey
                                              Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                               

                                              Sure California's Peak Use is not too different than ours (Texas).

                                              And California is where I have done the larger (utility) scale Solar Thermal design work.

                                              They tend to trend about 10 years ahead of us on many things -- good or bad.

                                              So if you work with their example of figure 2 -- "2009 Summer Day in California,"  in that document -- It shows the typical peak rising up somewhere between noon and 2 pm, and dropping off somewhere between 6 and 8 pm, with the Peak of the Peak at about 4 pm.  Is that about a fair statement?

                                              Very closely matches ours, and if you ever happen to see the pattern of the Texas hydro dams (yeah we have some of those) like at Lake Texoma -- They open full bore at 4 pm, and run until about 8 pm.

                                              We all match on all of that.  However, So does Solar Thermal.  When Solar Thermal wakes up in the morning, it does so relatively slowly -- especially compared to PV.  You probably know that PV closely follows the LIGHT of day that the Sun produces.  But no so much with Solar Thermal. 

                                              With Solar Thermal, there is generally a bunch of hardware to heat up with incoming energy of the Solar Thermal.  Depending on the style of the mechanical design, there are pipes, tubes, heat exchangers, steam separators/drums/tanks to heat up.  Along with heat transfer medium, itself -- whether Oil, or Water, or . . .   at any rate a Whole Lot of Mass to Heat up before the thing even starts spitting steam at the turbines. 

                                              That delay (sort of a hysteresis) can take a couple hours on the front end -- making the Solar Thermal production rise almost in-line with the same figure from your link.  And on the back side -- the evening, as it were -- those same delays show up again.  It takes a couple hours for the residual heat of the equipment to cool down and the turbines to spin down.  Some designs coast well into to evening with no real intent of storage.

                                              All of this makes Solar Thermal hit the overall Peak Use quite well.  Now if you step back and look at what causes the Peak Use to start with, you can sort of have an Ah-Ha! moment.  The Daily Peak Use is caused by the Daily Residual Heat -- the same thing we humans are attempting to fight with our Air Conditioning.  The Peak Use we are looking at in that Figure 2 is simply Peak Air Conditioning Use. 

                                              Simple Solar Thermal (without storage) experiences that same residual heat in its basic operation.  Why not work with nature, instead of trying to fight it?  How simple is that?



                                              --- On Sun, 5/30/10, mkewert@... <mkewert@...> wrote:

                                              From: mkewert@... <mkewert@...>
                                              Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010, 3:09 PM

                                               

                                              Phillip,
                                              Note that utility peak demands extend several hours after solar production peaks:
                                              http://www.nrel. gov/docs/ fy10osti/ 45653.pdf

                                              At least a few hours of storage will be very valuable for displacing other generation sources.

                                              Mike
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Philip Timmons" <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com>
                                              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                              Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 11:31:59 AM GMT -06:00 Guadalajara / Mexico City / Monterrey
                                              Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                               



                                            • Philip Timmons
                                              Let me start with  a couple of caveats -- I have not done design nor review work on trough plants -- so I am no expert on their nuances.  My large scale work
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jun 1, 2010
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Let me start with  a couple of caveats -- I have not done design nor review work on trough plants -- so I am no expert on their nuances. 

                                                My large scale work was for these guys -- www.ausra.com -- which are sort of like the trough plants in that they use a long-line design, but have some important differences on keeping expenses down, and do not use oil.  And my other, small-scale, work (from which I see much better application for real world people) comes closer to dish designs.  But that aside . . .

                                                This NREL document and software package may be sort of a Solution-Looking-for-a-Problem that we are looking at?  Dunno whether it is fully valid across all models?  I follow they had a few trough systems to look at, but numbers can be a bit more wild than that.   While Engineering Economics (the detailed modeling behind this sample software) can be useful for comparing Apples to Oranges -- it is a little risky to use to determine the Answer = X, or = Y, or whatever.

                                                So with all that upfront . . . .  The particular figure you ref-fed -- #3 -- is interesting to me in the net cost per kWh cited -- it hits it minimum at about 15 to 16 cents?  That I assume is production costs -- the point at which the transformers jump it up to transmission voltage?  (before transmission costs and retail costs).  If so, we could observe that it never does become competitive.  With storage or not.  But with particular interest to your question -- is their "Solar Multiple" (the X axis of that graph) their units or measure of storage?

                                                But if you look back to the title and abstract, these guys are not really trying to compare storage, but rather how to do the modeling, itself.  When you get to page 5 and 6, it goes into their Thermal Storage portion of the model, but I am not clear on whether it has an option for simply zero-ing the storage, and having never suffered those costs?

                                                For a sort of break-away from the storage obsession, maybe look to Google's work on Solar Thermal?  Sample Story >>>

                                                http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/03/google-solar-thermal-mirrors-cheaper-renewable-energy.php

                                                Google understands very clearly that it is all about the money.  Google's focus (pun intended :) ) has been how to do the mirrors cheaply -- as has mine.  Since there is a lot of mirror surface involved, doing that which makes it cheaper, better, faster -- makes more economic difference than many other financial aspects combined.







                                                 




                                                --- On Mon, 5/31/10, mkewert@... <mkewert@...> wrote:

                                                From: mkewert@... <mkewert@...>
                                                Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Monday, May 31, 2010, 10:50 AM

                                                 

                                                Phillip,
                                                I agree with your logic IF there really is that much inherent thermal capacitance in the solar trough plants.  I was surprised to find this NREL document that seems to support your position from an economic standpoint, assuming their model is good.  See Fig. 3.  I don't understand why levelized cost would go up again for larger plants (regardless of storage).  Do you?
                                                http://www.nrel. gov/csp/pdfs/ 42852.pdf

                                                Do you have any power plant kW output curves from the SEGS in CA?  That would really convince me.
                                                Mike
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "Philip Timmons" <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com>
                                                To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                                Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 11:35:11 PM GMT -06:00 Guadalajara / Mexico City / Monterrey
                                                Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                                 

                                                Sure California's Peak Use is not too different than ours (Texas).

                                                And California is where I have done the larger (utility) scale Solar Thermal design work.

                                                They tend to trend about 10 years ahead of us on many things -- good or bad.

                                                So if you work with their example of figure 2 -- "2009 Summer Day in California,"  in that document -- It shows the typical peak rising up somewhere between noon and 2 pm, and dropping off somewhere between 6 and 8 pm, with the Peak of the Peak at about 4 pm.  Is that about a fair statement?

                                                Very closely matches ours, and if you ever happen to see the pattern of the Texas hydro dams (yeah we have some of those) like at Lake Texoma -- They open full bore at 4 pm, and run until about 8 pm.

                                                We all match on all of that.  However, So does Solar Thermal.  When Solar Thermal wakes up in the morning, it does so relatively slowly -- especially compared to PV.  You probably know that PV closely follows the LIGHT of day that the Sun produces.  But no so much with Solar Thermal. 

                                                With Solar Thermal, there is generally a bunch of hardware to heat up with incoming energy of the Solar Thermal.  Depending on the style of the mechanical design, there are pipes, tubes, heat exchangers, steam separators/drums/ tanks to heat up.  Along with heat transfer medium, itself -- whether Oil, or Water, or . . .   at any rate a Whole Lot of Mass to Heat up before the thing even starts spitting steam at the turbines. 

                                                That delay (sort of a hysteresis) can take a couple hours on the front end -- making the Solar Thermal production rise almost in-line with the same figure from your link.  And on the back side -- the evening, as it were -- those same delays show up again.  It takes a couple hours for the residual heat of the equipment to cool down and the turbines to spin down.  Some designs coast well into to evening with no real intent of storage.

                                                All of this makes Solar Thermal hit the overall Peak Use quite well.  Now if you step back and look at what causes the Peak Use to start with, you can sort of have an Ah-Ha! moment.  The Daily Peak Use is caused by the Daily Residual Heat -- the same thing we humans are attempting to fight with our Air Conditioning.  The Peak Use we are looking at in that Figure 2 is simply Peak Air Conditioning Use. 

                                                Simple Solar Thermal (without storage) experiences that same residual heat in its basic operation.  Why not work with nature, instead of trying to fight it?  How simple is that?



                                                --- On Sun, 5/30/10, mkewert@comcast. net <mkewert@comcast. net> wrote:

                                                From: mkewert@comcast. net <mkewert@comcast. net>
                                                Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve
                                                To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                                Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010, 3:09 PM

                                                 

                                                Phillip,
                                                Note that utility peak demands extend several hours after solar production peaks:
                                                http://www.nrel. gov/docs/ fy10osti/ 45653.pdf

                                                At least a few hours of storage will be very valuable for displacing other generation sources.

                                                Mike
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "Philip Timmons" <philiptimmons@ yahoo.com>
                                                To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                                Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 11:31:59 AM GMT -06:00 Guadalajara / Mexico City / Monterrey
                                                Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                                 




                                              • Tyra Rankin
                                                Bill: Great comments all; I completely support the visionary thinking. I want to apologize to the group for expressing my horror at the spill in such a loud
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jun 7, 2010
                                                • 0 Attachment

                                                  Bill:

                                                   

                                                  Great comments all; I completely support the visionary thinking. 

                                                   

                                                  I want to apologize to the group for expressing my horror at the spill in such a loud way on this forum.  My father and brother both have life long careers as petroleum engineers in drilling.  It’s not my expertise.  My brother returned this week from his drilling work in Nigeria and I had a long technical conversation with him and his colleague from Britain about the spill.  What I learned is the extreme complexity of drilling systems.  In BP’s case there were issues in so many areas, starting with well design.  One of the main things I took away was how much decision making on rigs is left to a very few people, who are guided almost entirely by corporate incentives.  Get it done. Get it done quickly; time is money.  So, so many steps were left out in BP’s drilling process, far before the BOP came into play.  The BOP is the tool of very last resort.  BP’s had multiple failures, some of which were known well in advance of the blow out; should have been remedied when discovered but were not.

                                                   

                                                  My brother and his colleague discussed the division of MMS into 3 separate agencies, enforcement, royalties and regulation – this was done in England years ago after a large North Sea blow out there.

                                                   

                                                  They described how the 6 month moratorium on drilling will move rigs overseas.  Job losses in the gulf could be as high as 30,000 or 50,000 at a time when jobs are desperately needed.  Ultimately, changes implemented will lead to more jobs, more regulation and different ways of doing oil and gas business.  But in the meantime, those in the industry and this region will suffer greatly. 

                                                   

                                                  What I struggle with is change.  As someone working to bring change in the form of new and renewable energy supplies, I’m frequently extremely frustrated by the slowness and resistance of those who don’t want change.  How do we get folks to be more willing to embrace change, corporations, governments, people without having to suffer such horrible catastrophe?   There are many who believe that the effects of climate change will bring similar environmental and economic catastrophic upheaval.  How do we build in incentives and change agents in a timely and more comfortable way without having to destroy ourselves and our environments in the process? 

                                                  Tyra

                                                   


                                                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of William & Cynthia Stange
                                                  Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 8:33 AM
                                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  If that is the case, and it's a good one. Peak and the larger percent of usage is to cool our homes,no? If we as a nation built homes to be ten-times more efficient at resisting the heat load THAT electricity could be used somewhere else as a "swap" of peak usage/storage combination to "charge" or shore up EV's? Taking into consideration that electric rail use ( both public transpo and transport of goods) could be utilized as well. Just thinking a what the future could look like. Since energy will become quite a lot more expensive to build, feed with fossil fuel to keep up with increasing loads, it seems that the most logical solution is to super-double down the way we build and live in our homes. Being absolutely more specific of environmental regions. As ours is hot and humid, with flooding likely from time to time, and a drought thrown in every couple of years? Hmmm... Design concepts are begining to get more complicated!
                                                  LaVerne? Instead of concrete slab foundations we should have used bright white concrete roof structures instead, we're upside down!!
                                                  Thank you for the interesting emails all of you.
                                                  Bill

                                                • William & Cynthia Stange
                                                  http://www.better place.com/ This is a interesting site! I hope I am not stealing someone elses thunder here, I seem to have forgotten whether the link was
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jun 7, 2010
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    http://www.better place.com/     This is a interesting site!
                                                     I hope I am not stealing someone elses thunder here, I seem to have forgotten whether the link was from Hreg or facebook. Anyhow this is partly the way I see the future start to look. I know, I know, the old saying of " it will take decades to change the way we drive!" Well , not exactly take for instance the internet. As a civilization it did not take too long for that to be coordinated into everything we know, now our phones even log on! Extended Wi-Fi !! So electric vehicles (EV'S) do not have to be 20 years away, 5-10 ton electric hybris trucks are already rolling out in Florida and being sent overseas. Uh, Duh? Keep the pressure on , keep brain-storming and we'll get this thing right at last!!! Teamsters can learn to operate high-speed trains, hybrid semis. We can figure this out, we HAVE to figure this out. As always thank you Tyra, please keep us in the loop with legal parameters and info that you collect. Re- invent ourselves we deserve it.
                                                     Bill Stange


                                                    From: Tyra Rankin <tyra@...>
                                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Mon, June 7, 2010 10:40:46 AM
                                                    Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                                     

                                                    Bill:

                                                     

                                                    Great comments all; I completely support the visionary thinking. 

                                                     

                                                    I want to apologize to the group for expressing my horror at the spill in such a loud way on this forum.  My father and brother both have life long careers as petroleum engineers in drilling.  It’s not my expertise.  My brother returned this week from his drilling work in Nigeria and I had a long technical conversation with him and his colleague from Britain about the spill.  What I learned is the extreme complexity of drilling systems.  In BP’s case there were issues in so many areas, starting with well design.  One of the main things I took away was how much decision making on rigs is left to a very few people, who are guided almost entirely by corporate incentives.  Get it done. Get it done quickly; time is money.  So, so many steps were left out in BP’s drilling process, far before the BOP came into play.  The BOP is the tool of very last resort.  BP’s had multiple failures, some of which were known well in advance of the blow out; should have been remedied when discovered but were not.

                                                     

                                                    My brother and his colleague discussed the division of MMS into 3 separate agencies, enforcement, royalties and regulation – this was done in England years ago after a large North Sea blow out there.

                                                     

                                                    They described how the 6 month moratorium on drilling will move rigs overseas.  Job losses in the gulf could be as high as 30,000 or 50,000 at a time when jobs are desperately needed.  Ultimately, changes implemented will lead to more jobs, more regulation and different ways of doing oil and gas business.  But in the meantime, those in the industry and this region will suffer greatly. 

                                                     

                                                    What I struggle with is change.  As someone working to bring change in the form of new and renewable energy supplies, I’m frequently extremely frustrated by the slowness and resistance of those who don’t want change.  How do we get folks to be more willing to embrace change, corporations, governments, people without having to suffer such horrible catastrophe?   There are many who believe that the effects of climate change will bring similar environmental and economic catastrophic upheaval.  How do we build in incentives and change agents in a timely and more comfortable way without having to destroy ourselves and our environments in the process? 

                                                    Tyra

                                                     


                                                    From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of William & Cynthia Stange
                                                    Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 8:33 AM
                                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    If that is the case, and it's a good one. Peak and the larger percent of usage is to cool our homes,no? If we as a nation built homes to be ten-times more efficient at resisting the heat load THAT electricity could be used somewhere else as a "swap" of peak usage/storage combination to "charge" or shore up EV's? Taking into consideration that electric rail use ( both public transpo and transport of goods) could be utilized as well. Just thinking a what the future could look like. Since energy will become quite a lot more expensive to build, feed with fossil fuel to keep up with increasing loads, it seems that the most logical solution is to super-double down the way we build and live in our homes. Being absolutely more specific of environmental regions. As ours is hot and humid, with flooding likely from time to time, and a drought thrown in every couple of years? Hmmm... Design concepts are begining to get more complicated!
                                                    LaVerne? Instead of concrete slab foundations we should have used bright white concrete roof structures instead, we're upside down!!
                                                    Thank you for the interesting emails all of you.
                                                    Bill

                                                  • apallegraa@aol.com
                                                    Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ... From: William & Cynthia Stange Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 14:24:24 To:
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jun 8, 2010
                                                    • 0 Attachment

                                                      Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


                                                      From: William & Cynthia Stange <stangfam@...>
                                                      Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 14:24:24 -0700 (PDT)
                                                      To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                                       

                                                      http://www.better place.com/     This is a interesting site!
                                                       I hope I am not stealing someone elses thunder here, I seem to have forgotten whether the link was from Hreg or facebook. Anyhow this is partly the way I see the future start to look. I know, I know, the old saying of " it will take decades to change the way we drive!" Well , not exactly take for instance the internet. As a civilization it did not take too long for that to be coordinated into everything we know, now our phones even log on! Extended Wi-Fi !! So electric vehicles (EV'S) do not have to be 20 years away, 5-10 ton electric hybris trucks are already rolling out in Florida and being sent overseas. Uh, Duh? Keep the pressure on , keep brain-storming and we'll get this thing right at last!!! Teamsters can learn to operate high-speed trains, hybrid semis. We can figure this out, we HAVE to figure this out. As always thank you Tyra, please keep us in the loop with legal parameters and info that you collect. Re- invent ourselves we deserve it.
                                                       Bill Stange


                                                      From: Tyra Rankin <tyra@...>
                                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                                      Sent: Mon, June 7, 2010 10:40:46 AM
                                                      Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                                       

                                                      Bill:

                                                       

                                                      Great comments all; I completely support the visionary thinking. 

                                                       

                                                      I want to apologize to the group for expressing my horror at the spill in such a loud way on this forum.  My father and brother both have life long careers as petroleum engineers in drilling.  It’s not my expertise.  My brother returned this week from his drilling work in Nigeria and I had a long technical conversation with him and his colleague from Britain about the spill.  What I learned is the extreme complexity of drilling systems.  In BP’s case there were issues in so many areas, starting with well design.  One of the main things I took away was how much decision making on rigs is left to a very few people, who are guided almost entirely by corporate incentives.  Get it done. Get it done quickly; time is money.  So, so many steps were left out in BP’s drilling process, far before the BOP came into play.  The BOP is the tool of very last resort.  BP’s had multiple failures, some of which were known well in advance of the blow out; should have been remedied when discovered but were not.

                                                       

                                                      My brother and his colleague discussed the division of MMS into 3 separate agencies, enforcement, royalties and regulation – this was done in England years ago after a large North Sea blow out there.

                                                       

                                                      They described how the 6 month moratorium on drilling will move rigs overseas.  Job losses in the gulf could be as high as 30,000 or 50,000 at a time when jobs are desperately needed.  Ultimately, changes implemented will lead to more jobs, more regulation and different ways of doing oil and gas business.  But in the meantime, those in the industry and this region will suffer greatly. 

                                                       

                                                      What I struggle with is change.  As someone working to bring change in the form of new and renewable energy supplies, I’m frequently extremely frustrated by the slowness and resistance of those who don’t want change.  How do we get folks to be more willing to embrace change, corporations, governments, people without having to suffer such horrible catastrophe?   There are many who believe that the effects of climate change will bring similar environmental and economic catastrophic upheaval.  How do we build in incentives and change agents in a timely and more comfortable way without having to destroy ourselves and our environments in the process? 

                                                      Tyra

                                                       


                                                      From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of William & Cynthia Stange
                                                      Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 8:33 AM
                                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      If that is the case, and it's a good one. Peak and the larger percent of usage is to cool our homes,no? If we as a nation built homes to be ten-times more efficient at resisting the heat load THAT electricity could be used somewhere else as a "swap" of peak usage/storage combination to "charge" or shore up EV's? Taking into consideration that electric rail use ( both public transpo and transport of goods) could be utilized as well. Just thinking a what the future could look like. Since energy will become quite a lot more expensive to build, feed with fossil fuel to keep up with increasing loads, it seems that the most logical solution is to super-double down the way we build and live in our homes. Being absolutely more specific of environmental regions. As ours is hot and humid, with flooding likely from time to time, and a drought thrown in every couple of years? Hmmm... Design concepts are begining to get more complicated!
                                                      LaVerne? Instead of concrete slab foundations we should have used bright white concrete roof structures instead, we're upside down!!
                                                      Thank you for the interesting emails all of you.
                                                      Bill

                                                    • Tyra Rankin
                                                      Yep, Better Place, it s amazing!! They were here in Houston about 2 weeks ago at AJC. Mayor Parker keynoted. Noble Energy sponsored and is continuing to
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Jun 8, 2010
                                                      • 0 Attachment

                                                        Yep, Better Place , it’s amazing!!  They were here in Houston about 2 weeks ago at AJC.  Mayor Parker keynoted.  Noble Energy sponsored and is continuing to work with AJC.  Absolutely, Bill, thank you!

                                                         

                                                        Mike Granoff, head of Oil Inde penden ce Policies spoke.  Granoff’s presentation had us intensely on the edge of our chairs.  Afterwards, I asked him if BP’s spill was helping his efforts in Washington .  Sadly, he said there is still much resistance.  The US is not embracing Better Place ’s program as other countries have. 

                                                         

                                                        We have to get past our fear of change.   Maybe Bill Murray style, Baby Steps!

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        Bipartisan EV bill to help U.S. get into the global green car race

                                                        Posted by Mike Granoff, Head of Oil Inde penden ce Policies

                                                        May 27th, 2010

                                                        “For two generations, political leaders from both major political parties have identified oil de penden ce as a major vulnerability, and have asserted the need for the U.S. to break that addiction. But despite all of the passionate rhetoric, precious little has been proposed by way of a tangible strategy.

                                                        Today, there is hope that this is about to change.

                                                        Democratic and Republican members of the House and the Senate just”

                                                        read more >>

                                                         

                                                        Tyra


                                                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of William & Cynthia Stange
                                                        Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 4:24 PM
                                                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        http://www.better place.com/     This is a interesting site!

                                                         I hope I am not stealing someone elses thunder here, I seem to have forgotten whether the link was from Hreg or facebook. Anyhow this is partly the way I see the future start to look. I know, I know, the old saying of " it will take decades to change the way we drive!" Well , not exactly take for instance the internet. As a civilization it did not take too long for that to be coordinated into everything we know, now our phones even log on! Extended Wi-Fi !! So electric vehicles (EV'S) do not have to be 20 years away, 5-10 ton electric hybris trucks are already rolling out in Florida and being sent overseas. Uh, Duh? Keep the pressure on , keep brain-storming and we'll get this thing right at last!!! Teamsters can learn to operate high-speed trains, hybrid semis. We can figure this out, we HAVE to figure this out. As always thank you Tyra, please keep us in the loop with legal parameters and info that you collect. Re- invent ourselves we deserve it.

                                                         Bill Stange

                                                         


                                                        From: Tyra Rankin < tyra@... >
                                                        To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                                        Sent: Mon, June 7, 2010 10:40:46 AM
                                                        Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                                         

                                                        Bill:

                                                         

                                                        Great comments all; I completely support the visionary thinking. 

                                                         

                                                        I want to apologize to the group for expressing my horror at the spill in such a loud way on this forum.  My father and brother both have life long careers as petroleum engineers in drilling.  It’s not my expertise.  My brother returned this week from his drilling work in Nigeria and I had a long technical conversation with him and his colleague from Britain about the spill.  What I learned is the extreme complexity of drilling systems.  In BP’s case there were issues in so many areas, starting with well design.  One of the main things I took away was how much decision making on rigs is left to a very few people, who are guided almost entirely by corporate incentives.  Get it done. Get it done quickly; time is money.  So, so many steps were left out in BP’s drilling process, far before the BOP came into play.  The BOP is the tool of very last resort.  BP’s had multiple failures, some of which were known well in advance of the blow out; should have been remedied when discovered but were not.

                                                         

                                                        My brother and his colleague discussed the division of MMS into 3 separate agencies, enforcement, royalties and regulation – this was done in England years ago after a large North Sea blow out there.

                                                         

                                                        They described how the 6 month moratorium on drilling will move rigs overseas.  Job losses in the gulf could be as high as 30,000 or 50,000 at a time when jobs are desperately needed.  Ultimately, changes implemented will lead to more jobs, more regulation and different ways of doing oil and gas business.  But in the meantime, those in the industry and this region will suffer greatly. 

                                                         

                                                        What I struggle with is change.  As someone working to bring change in the form of new and renewable energy supplies, I’m frequently extremely frustrated by the slowness and resistance of those who don’t want change.  How do we get folks to be more willing to embrace change, corporations, governments, people without having to suffer such horrible catastrophe?   There are many who believe that the effects of climate change will bring similar environmental and economic catastrophic upheaval.  How do we build in incentives and change agents in a timely and more comfortable way without having to destroy ourselves and our environments in the process? 

                                                        Tyra

                                                         


                                                        From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of William & Cynthia Stange
                                                        Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 8:33 AM
                                                        To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Resrve

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        If that is the case, and it's a good one. Peak and the larger percent of usage is to cool our homes,no? If we as a nation built homes to be ten-times more efficient at resisting the heat load THAT electricity could be used somewhere else as a "swap" of peak usage/storage combination to "charge" or shore up EV's? Taking into consideration that electric rail use ( both public transpo and transport of goods) could be utilized as well. Just thinking a what the future could look like. Since energy will become quite a lot more expensive to build, feed with fossil fuel to keep up with increasing loads, it seems that the most logical solution is to super-double down the way we build and live in our homes. Being absolutely more specific of environmental regions. As ours is hot and humid, with flooding likely from time to time, and a drought thrown in every couple of years? Hmmm... Design concepts are begining to get more complicated!
                                                        LaVerne? Instead of concrete slab foundations we should have used bright white concrete roof structures instead, we're upside down!!
                                                        Thank you for the interesting emails all of you.
                                                        Bill

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