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Re: Residential Deed Restrictions

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  • jay.ring@ymail.com
    What my architectural guidelines say is this (My commentary follows): 11.1) The ACC will approve solar panels which are unobtrusive and which blend in with the
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 19, 2009
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      What my architectural guidelines say is this (My commentary follows):



      11.1) The ACC will approve solar panels which are unobtrusive and which blend in with the roof shingle color.

      11.2) Parabolic colar collectors which are not mounted so as to be flusg with the roof will not be approved.

      11.3) Solor panel frames should be bronze or black in color in order to best blend in with the shingles. All unfinished aluminum must be painted the color of the shingles.

      11.4) No solar panel should be mounted so that it extends above the roof line.

      11.5) The ACC would prefer to have solar panels mounted so they they are not visible from the fronting street.



      Personally, I would like to see 5 stricken. The word "prefer" is worthless and leaves too much wiggle room. I also don't really like the rule ;)

      The rest I am okay with, I particularly like the phrasing "the ACC -will- approve". That is very positive language.

      I like the idea of painting the frames to match the color.

      I have very mixed feelings about the phrasing "which blend in with the roof shingle color". Does that mean blue panels are prohibited? It is unclear, something that should be avoided in these types of documents. I have to say, I personally don't think the blue panels look any worse, but I also respect the opinions of my neighbors in this regard.

      On the whole, I would strike the line "which blend in with the roof shingle color" and remove 11.5 completely.

      Otherwise, I am fairly happy with this language, and very very happy with the phrase "will approve". I think if you get that language in the document, the rest is less important.


      - Jay




      --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "J P Malone" <JPMALONE@...> wrote:
      >
      > Can anyone recommended language to insert or remove from residential Deed
      > Restrictions/architectural Guidelines that would help the renewable energy
      > movement and reduce friction when installing Solar Panels, small wind
      > generators, water collection barrels, etc.?
      >
      >
      >
      > My sub-division is changing its deed restrictions and we have to submit
      > recommended changes before April 1.
      >
    • David Power
      There are several bills working that will remove all restrictions on solar installation unless they provide a hazard to persons or property. Check with your
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 19, 2009
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        There are several bills working that will remove all restrictions on solar installation unless they provide a hazard to persons or property. Check with your legislator to make sure they are aware of these bills.

        David
        On Mar 19, 2009, at 10:01 AM, jay.ring@... wrote:

        What my architectural guidelines say is this (My commentary follows):

        11.1) The ACC will approve solar panels which are unobtrusive and which blend in with the roof shingle color.

        11.2) Parabolic colar collectors which are not mounted so as to be flusg with the roof will not be approved.

        11.3) Solor panel frames should be bronze or black in color in order to best blend in with the shingles. All unfinished aluminum must be painted the color of the shingles.

        11.4) No solar panel should be mounted so that it extends above the roof line.

        11.5) The ACC would prefer to have solar panels mounted so they they are not visible from the fronting street.

        Personally, I would like to see 5 stricken. The word "prefer" is worthless and leaves too much wiggle room. I also don't really like the rule ;)

        The rest I am okay with, I particularly like the phrasing "the ACC -will- approve". That is very positive language.

        I like the idea of painting the frames to match the color.

        I have very mixed feelings about the phrasing "which blend in with the roof shingle color". Does that mean blue panels are prohibited? It is unclear, something that should be avoided in these types of documents. I have to say, I personally don't think the blue panels look any worse, but I also respect the opinions of my neighbors in this regard.

        On the whole, I would strike the line "which blend in with the roof shingle color" and remove 11.5 completely.

        Otherwise, I am fairly happy with this language, and very very happy with the phrase "will approve". I think if you get that language in the document, the rest is less important.

        - Jay

        --- In hreg@yahoogroups. com, "J P Malone" <JPMALONE@.. .> wrote:
        >
        > Can anyone recommended language to insert or remove from residential Deed
        > Restrictions/ architectural Guidelines that would help the renewable energy
        > movement and reduce friction when installing Solar Panels, small wind
        > generators, water collection barrels, etc.?
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > My sub-division is changing its deed restrictions and we have to submit
        > recommended changes before April 1.
        >


      • Gary Beck
        Here are my comments to these architectural guidelines - 11.1 Not possible 11.2 Not possible 11.3 Unlikely unless you want a black or very dark blue
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 20, 2009
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          Here are my comments to these architectural guidelines -

           

          11.1    Not possible

          11.2    Not possible

          11.3    Unlikely unless you want a black or very dark blue roof - which is not too green.  Also likely requires black or very dark blue epoxy painting of aluminum which would be a cool experiment since aluminum transfers heat so quickly it will expand and contract 'fast' every day probably cracking the paint.  So you might have a neat visual effect up there after a year or two.  

          11.4    All mounting racks I have seen have a gaps below for cooling the Solar PV. Hot PVs produce less electricity.

          11.5   All houses on the north side of the street could not have Solar panels, which need to face south. But they could see the PVs of their neighbor over the fence to the north. Not too fair, but good fodder for a class action suite "North Vs South".

           

          Here ore some slides from a recent presentation that briefly covered this subject.

           

          * Just an image -not 10kW !

           

          Home Owners Associations need to get with it. They should recognize that solar PVs are a beautiful roof addition that show that their neighbor is forward thinking community, and not a lame, out of date neighborhood to live in.

           

          Gary Beck, P.E., SECB, LEED AP

          Eco-Holdings Engineering Services

          4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd. Ste 114

          Houston, Texas 77025

          Tel: 713-377-4209  Fax: 832-201-5338

           

          SECB certified in the Practice of Structural Engineering, a structural inspector for the Texas Residential Construction Commission SIRP program, and a listed Engineer for the Texas Department of Insurance Wind Storm program. Eco provides Engineering and Engineer's Inspection Services for Residential, Commercial, Lodging, Educational, Industrial and Government Facilities. Eco's design engineering services include AutoCAD based construction documents for permitting and building foundations, structures, storm water systems, and detention ponds; and Autodesk Revit based 3D Building Information Modeling for green building practices.

           

           

           

          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Power
          Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:16 PM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: Residential Deed Restrictions

           

          There are several bills working that will remove all restrictions on solar installation unless they provide a hazard to persons or property. Check with your legislator to make sure they are aware of these bills.

           

          David

          On Mar 19, 2009, at 10:01 AM, jay.ring@... wrote:



          What my architectural guidelines say is this (My commentary follows):

          11.1) The ACC will approve solar panels which are unobtrusive and which blend in with the roof shingle color.

          11.2) Parabolic colar collectors which are not mounted so as to be flusg with the roof will not be approved.

          11.3) Solor panel frames should be bronze or black in color in order to best blend in with the shingles. All unfinished aluminum must be painted the color of the shingles.

          11.4) No solar panel should be mounted so that it extends above the roof line.

          11.5) The ACC would prefer to have solar panels mounted so they they are not visible from the fronting street.

          Personally, I would like to see 5 stricken. The word "prefer" is worthless and leaves too much wiggle room. I also don't really like the rule ;)

          The rest I am okay with, I particularly like the phrasing "the ACC -will- approve". That is very positive language.

          I like the idea of painting the frames to match the color.

          I have very mixed feelings about the phrasing "which blend in with the roof shingle color". Does that mean blue panels are prohibited? It is unclear, something that should be avoided in these types of documents. I have to say, I personally don't think the blue panels look any worse, but I also respect the opinions of my neighbors in this regard.

          On the whole, I would strike the line "which blend in with the roof shingle color" and remove 11.5 completely.

          Otherwise, I am fairly happy with this language, and very very happy with the phrase "will approve". I think if you get that language in the document, the rest is less important.

          - Jay

          --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "J P Malone" <JPMALONE@...> wrote:

          >
          > Can anyone recommended language to insert or remove from residential Deed
          > Restrictions/architectural Guidelines that would help the renewable energy
          > movement and reduce friction when installing Solar Panels, small wind
          > generators, water collection barrels, etc.?
          > 
          > 
          > 
          > My sub-division is changing its deed restrictions and we have to submit
          > recommended changes before April 1.
          >

           

        • jay.ring@ymail.com
          I think you are being overly pessimistic. I think it s a reasonable standard. As for the particulars: On 11.1 (color matching and unobtrusive), I think it is
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 20, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            I think you are being overly pessimistic. I think it's a reasonable standard. As for the particulars:

            On 11.1 (color matching and unobtrusive), I think it is very possible. In fact, the first picture you posted ("plan for solor energy") looks pretty unobtrusive and close in close.

            On 11.3, (painting the frames black) I see no problem with painting aluminum black. I have lots of metal on my roof already (flashing, p[lumbing vents, and attic vents) and it is painted for corrosion prevention, and the color is in fact black. This is a common building practice.

            On 11.4, (panels can not extend above roof line) - I think you have mis-interpreted the word "roofline". The roofline is the contour or silhouette of the house. It just means that you shouldn't be able to stand on the north side of the house and see panels mounted on the southside "over the roofline". It doesn't say you can't have an air-gap.

            So I think you are being somewhat overly pessimistic on these.

            On 11.2 (no parabolas), it is a little more complicated. It's a prohibition, based on aesthetics. I'd like to see what sort of thing they are prohibiting. I am inclined to leave it to the review committee, because I trust my neighbors to make the right decision :)

            On 11.5, I have to agree with the sentiment. I think they look good too! There is no reason to penalize people on the north side.


            I included 11.5 only for completeness so that other people would have a "full picture" of what a typical neighborhood might be. You can then view your own restrictions in full awareness.

            Other than 11.5, I am pretty happy with these rules.

            Being a solar enthusiast, I am of course included to want to liberalize it somewhat; but I also think it is important that solar enthusiasts make every effort to really make it look as good as possible, especially early in the revolution. We don't want the early adopters to give people a bad impression.

            So, on the whole, I think they are pretty good.


            - Jay


            --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Beck" <eco@...> wrote:
            >
            > Here are my comments to these architectural guidelines -
            >
            >
            >
            > 11.1 Not possible
            >
            > 11.2 Not possible
            >
            > 11.3 Unlikely unless you want a black or very dark blue roof - which
            > is not too green. Also likely requires black or very dark blue epoxy
            > painting of aluminum which would be a cool experiment since aluminum
            > transfers heat so quickly it will expand and contract 'fast' every day
            > probably cracking the paint. So you might have a neat visual effect up
            > there after a year or two.
            >
            > 11.4 All mounting racks I have seen have a gaps below for cooling the
            > Solar PV. Hot PVs produce less electricity.
            >
            > 11.5 All houses on the north side of the street could not have Solar
            > panels, which need to face south. But they could see the PVs of their
            > neighbor over the fence to the north. Not too fair, but good fodder for
            > a class action suite "North Vs South".
            >
            >
            >
            > Here ore some slides from a recent presentation that briefly covered
            > this subject.
            >
            >
            >
            > * Just an image -not 10kW !
            >
            >
            >
            > Home Owners Associations need to get with it. They should recognize that
            > solar PVs are a beautiful roof addition that show that their neighbor is
            > forward thinking community, and not a lame, out of date neighborhood to
            > live in.
            >
            >
            >
            > Gary Beck, P.E., SECB, LEED AP
            >
            > Eco-Holdings Engineering Services
            >
            > 4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd. Ste 114
            >
            > Houston, Texas 77025
            >
            > Tel: 713-377-4209 Fax: 832-201-5338
            >
            >
            >
            > SECB certified in the Practice of Structural Engineering, a structural
            > inspector for the Texas Residential Construction Commission SIRP
            > program, and a listed Engineer for the Texas Department of Insurance
            > Wind Storm program. Eco provides Engineering and Engineer's Inspection
            > Services for Residential, Commercial, Lodging, Educational, Industrial
            > and Government Facilities. Eco's design engineering services include
            > AutoCAD based construction documents for permitting and building
            > foundations, structures, storm water systems, and detention ponds; and
            > Autodesk Revit based 3D Building Information Modeling for green building
            > practices.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            > David Power
            > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:16 PM
            > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: Residential Deed Restrictions
            >
            >
            >
            > There are several bills working that will remove all restrictions on
            > solar installation unless they provide a hazard to persons or property.
            > Check with your legislator to make sure they are aware of these bills.
            >
            >
            >
            > David
            >
            > On Mar 19, 2009, at 10:01 AM, jay.ring@... wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > What my architectural guidelines say is this (My commentary follows):
            >
            > 11.1) The ACC will approve solar panels which are unobtrusive and which
            > blend in with the roof shingle color.
            >
            > 11.2) Parabolic colar collectors which are not mounted so as to be flusg
            > with the roof will not be approved.
            >
            > 11.3) Solor panel frames should be bronze or black in color in order to
            > best blend in with the shingles. All unfinished aluminum must be painted
            > the color of the shingles.
            >
            > 11.4) No solar panel should be mounted so that it extends above the roof
            > line.
            >
            > 11.5) The ACC would prefer to have solar panels mounted so they they are
            > not visible from the fronting street.
            >
            > Personally, I would like to see 5 stricken. The word "prefer" is
            > worthless and leaves too much wiggle room. I also don't really like the
            > rule ;)
            >
            > The rest I am okay with, I particularly like the phrasing "the ACC
            > -will- approve". That is very positive language.
            >
            > I like the idea of painting the frames to match the color.
            >
            > I have very mixed feelings about the phrasing "which blend in with the
            > roof shingle color". Does that mean blue panels are prohibited? It is
            > unclear, something that should be avoided in these types of documents. I
            > have to say, I personally don't think the blue panels look any worse,
            > but I also respect the opinions of my neighbors in this regard.
            >
            > On the whole, I would strike the line "which blend in with the roof
            > shingle color" and remove 11.5 completely.
            >
            > Otherwise, I am fairly happy with this language, and very very happy
            > with the phrase "will approve". I think if you get that language in the
            > document, the rest is less important.
            >
            > - Jay
            >
            > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hreg%40yahoogroups.com> , "J P
            > Malone" <JPMALONE@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Can anyone recommended language to insert or remove from residential
            > Deed
            > > Restrictions/architectural Guidelines that would help the renewable
            > energy
            > > movement and reduce friction when installing Solar Panels, small wind
            > > generators, water collection barrels, etc.?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > My sub-division is changing its deed restrictions and we have to
            > submit
            > > recommended changes before April 1.
            > >
            >
          • Gary Beck
            I m sorry but I have little simpathy for HOAs that write new rules and get into areas in which they have zero expertise. They should buy a hour of consulting
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 20, 2009
            • 0 Attachment

              I'm sorry but I have little simpathy for HOAs that write new rules and get into areas in which they have zero expertise.  They should buy a hour of consulting time and get it right.  HOAs really need to be limited to keeping yards pretty, and even then recognizing that bluebonnets in a front yard may look like weeds until they bloom. (the eye of the beholder)

               

              I also know of HOAs that decided not just what roof color can be installed, but what model and make shingle can be used (when a board member's brother happened to own the closest roofing supply company).  Or the HOA that decided to buy their own neighborhood lighting with an HOA driven fund raiser, instead of using free city provided new replacement street lighting.  There was not enough money collected so only a portion of the neighborhood got the 'fancy' lights. And the group chose an open top globe light that shines so much light up into the sky that the Space shuttle could use the neighborhood for landing alignment purposes.

               

              My comments re your comments…

              11.1   But what if you were 'green' enough to want a light colored or a white 'cool' roof on your house?  You would be declined because the panels do not match the roof.  That is the same as saying that you must park a red car in the garage instead of in the driveway because if does not match the garage door color.

              11.2  Parobolic?  This is 1970's speak someone downloaded by mistake, unless they mean they are against a solar power liquid brine steam turbine generator plant in the backyard. 

              11.3   A Solar PV system is an appliance, not a cladding.  So why paint something (adding work, cost, maintenance) when you don't have to?  And unpainted it better matches my preferred green light colored roof.

              11.4  If 'roof line' is meant to mean  'ridge line' it should say 'ridge line' or even 'top of ridge plate' which is a clear framing term.  A 'roof line' moves depending on the viewers elevation (a short HOA board member might then have no problem!). 

               

              This HOA's rules are outdated and basically just not needed, and they should be stricken.  The fact that all this language can be misinterpreted means there will be room to decline anyone depending on the current politics of a the HOA.  Plus why should someone whose only sunny location is on the northern side not be allowed to mounted the panels on that side to face south. 

               

              The structural and safe construction rules are clear enough to keep it strong/safe/stable in high winds. The safety issues are well handled by the International Residential and International Building Codes, which do not try to regulate the 'look' of anything, just the safety and performance of it.   Plus anyone who can afford solar PV will probably have a good looking and well planned out house design anyway.

               

              If you have not figured it out by know I am for smaller government, and I guess that now includes HOAs.

               

              Gary

               

               

              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jay.ring@...
              Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 9:42 AM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [hreg] Re: Residential Deed Restrictions

               

              I think you are being overly pessimistic. I think it's a reasonable standard. As for the particulars:

              On 11.1 (color matching and unobtrusive), I think it is very possible. In fact, the first picture you posted ("plan for solar energy") looks pretty unobtrusive and close in close.

              On 11.3, (painting the frames black) I see no problem with painting aluminum black. I have lots of metal on my roof already (flashing, p[lumbing vents, and attic vents) and it is painted for corrosion prevention, and the color is in fact black. This is a common building practice.

              On 11.4, (panels can not extend above roof line) - I think you have mis-interpreted the word "roofline". The roofline is the contour or silhouette of the house. It just means that you shouldn't be able to stand on the north side of the house and see panels mounted on the southside "over the roofline". It doesn't say you can't have an air-gap.

              So I think you are being somewhat overly pessimistic on these.

              On 11.2 (no parabolas), it is a little more complicated. It's a prohibition, based on aesthetics. I'd like to see what sort of thing they are prohibiting. I am inclined to leave it to the review committee, because I trust my neighbors to make the right decision :)

              On 11.5, I have to agree with the sentiment. I think they look good too! There is no reason to penalize people on the north side.

              I included 11.5 only for completeness so that other people would have a "full picture" of what a typical neighborhood might be. You can then view your own restrictions in full awareness.

              Other than 11.5, I am pretty happy with these rules.

              Being a solar enthusiast, I am of course included to want to liberalize it somewhat; but I also think it is important that solar enthusiasts make every effort to really make it look as good as possible, especially early in the revolution. We don't want the early adopters to give people a bad impression.

              So, on the whole, I think they are pretty good.

              - Jay

              --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Beck" <eco@...> wrote:

              >
              > Here are my comments to these architectural guidelines -
              >
              >
              >
              > 11.1 Not possible
              >
              > 11.2 Not possible
              >
              > 11.3 Unlikely unless you want a black or very dark blue roof - which
              > is not too green. Also likely requires black or very dark blue epoxy
              > painting of aluminum which would be a cool experiment since aluminum
              > transfers heat so quickly it will expand and contract 'fast' every day
              > probably cracking the paint. So you might have a neat visual effect up
              > there after a year or two.
              >
              > 11.4 All mounting racks I have seen have a gaps below for cooling the
              > Solar PV. Hot PVs produce less electricity.
              >
              > 11.5 All houses on the north side of the street could not have Solar
              > panels, which need to face south. But they could see the PVs of their
              > neighbor over the fence to the north. Not too fair, but good fodder for
              > a class action suite "North Vs South".
              >
              >
              >
              > Here ore some slides from a recent presentation that briefly covered
              > this subject.
              >
              >
              >
              > * Just an image -not 10kW !
              >
              >
              >
              > Home Owners Associations need to get with it. They should recognize that
              > solar PVs are a beautiful roof addition that show that their neighbor is
              > forward thinking community, and not a lame, out of date neighborhood to
              > live in.
              >
              >
              >
              > Gary Beck, P.E., SECB, LEED AP
              >
              > Eco-Holdings Engineering Services
              >
              > 4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd. Ste 114
              >
              > Houston, Texas 77025
              >
              > Tel: 713-377-4209 Fax: 832-201-5338
              >
              >
              >
              > SECB certified in the Practice of Structural Engineering, a structural
              > inspector for the Texas Residential Construction Commission SIRP
              > program, and a listed Engineer for the Texas Department of Insurance
              > Wind Storm program. Eco provides Engineering and Engineer's Inspection
              > Services for Residential, Commercial, Lodging, Educational, Industrial
              > and Government Facilities. Eco's design engineering services include
              > AutoCAD based construction documents for permitting and building
              > foundations, structures, storm water systems, and detention ponds; and
              > Autodesk Revit based 3D Building Information Modeling for green building
              > practices.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              > David Power
              > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:16 PM
              > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: Residential Deed Restrictions
              >
              >
              >
              > There are several bills working that will remove all restrictions on
              > solar installation unless they provide a hazard to persons or property.
              > Check with your legislator to make sure they are aware of these bills.
              >
              >
              >
              > David
              >
              > On Mar 19, 2009, at 10:01 AM, jay.ring@...
              wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > What my architectural guidelines say is this (My commentary follows):
              >
              > 11.1) The ACC will approve solar panels which are unobtrusive and which
              > blend in with the roof shingle color.
              >
              > 11.2) Parabolic colar collectors which are not mounted so as to be flusg
              > with the roof will not be approved.
              >
              > 11.3) Solor panel frames should be bronze or black in color in order to
              > best blend in with the shingles. All unfinished aluminum must be painted
              > the color of the shingles.
              >
              > 11.4) No solar panel should be mounted so that it extends above the roof
              > line.
              >
              > 11.5) The ACC would prefer to have solar panels mounted so they they are
              > not visible from the fronting street.
              >
              > Personally, I would like to see 5 stricken. The word "prefer" is
              > worthless and leaves too much wiggle room. I also don't really like the
              > rule ;)
              >
              > The rest I am okay with, I particularly like the phrasing "the ACC
              > -will- approve". That is very positive language.
              >
              > I like the idea of painting the frames to match the color.
              >
              > I have very mixed feelings about the phrasing "which blend in with
              the
              > roof shingle color". Does that mean blue panels are prohibited? It is
              > unclear, something that should be avoided in these types of documents. I
              > have to say, I personally don't think the blue panels look any worse,
              > but I also respect the opinions of my neighbors in this regard.
              >
              > On the whole, I would strike the line "which blend in with the roof
              > shingle color" and remove 11.5 completely.
              >
              > Otherwise, I am fairly happy with this language, and very very happy
              > with the phrase "will approve". I think if you get that language
              in the
              > document, the rest is less important.
              >
              > - Jay
              >
              > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:hreg%40yahoogroups.com> , "J P
              > Malone" <JPMALONE@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Can anyone recommended language to insert or remove from residential
              > Deed
              > > Restrictions/architectural Guidelines that would help the renewable
              > energy
              > > movement and reduce friction when installing Solar Panels, small wind
              > > generators, water collection barrels, etc.?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > My sub-division is changing its deed restrictions and we have to
              > submit
              > > recommended changes before April 1.
              > >
              >

            • Gary Beck
              Now that Solar is managed , lets move on to Wind Turbines... Anyone know how high can you go with a pole or wind turbine top radius inside the City of
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 20, 2009
              • 0 Attachment

                Now that Solar is 'managed', lets move on to Wind Turbines…

                 

                Anyone know how high can you go with a pole or wind turbine top radius inside the City of Houston?  Any sound or other known constraints?

                 

                Gary

                 

                 

                 

                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jay.ring@...
                Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 9:42 AM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [hreg] Re: Residential Deed Restrictions

                 

                I think you are being overly pessimistic. I think it's a reasonable standard. As for the particulars:

                On 11.1 (color matching and unobtrusive), I think it is very possible. In fact, the first picture you posted ("plan for solor energy") looks pretty unobtrusive and close in close.

                On 11.3, (painting the frames black) I see no problem with painting aluminum black. I have lots of metal on my roof already (flashing, p[lumbing vents, and attic vents) and it is painted for corrosion prevention, and the color is in fact black. This is a common building practice.

                On 11.4, (panels can not extend above roof line) - I think you have mis-interpreted the word "roofline". The roofline is the contour or silhouette of the house. It just means that you shouldn't be able to stand on the north side of the house and see panels mounted on the southside "over the roofline". It doesn't say you can't have an air-gap.

                So I think you are being somewhat overly pessimistic on these.

                On 11.2 (no parabolas), it is a little more complicated. It's a prohibition, based on aesthetics. I'd like to see what sort of thing they are prohibiting. I am inclined to leave it to the review committee, because I trust my neighbors to make the right decision :)

                On 11.5, I have to agree with the sentiment. I think they look good too! There is no reason to penalize people on the north side.

                I included 11.5 only for completeness so that other people would have a "full picture" of what a typical neighborhood might be. You can then view your own restrictions in full awareness.

                Other than 11.5, I am pretty happy with these rules.

                Being a solar enthusiast, I am of course included to want to liberalize it somewhat; but I also think it is important that solar enthusiasts make every effort to really make it look as good as possible, especially early in the revolution. We don't want the early adopters to give people a bad impression.

                So, on the whole, I think they are pretty good.

                - Jay

                --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Beck" <eco@...> wrote:

                >
                > Here are my comments to these architectural guidelines -
                >
                >
                >
                > 11.1 Not possible
                >
                > 11.2 Not possible
                >
                > 11.3 Unlikely unless you want a black or very dark blue roof - which
                > is not too green. Also likely requires black or very dark blue epoxy
                > painting of aluminum which would be a cool experiment since aluminum
                > transfers heat so quickly it will expand and contract 'fast' every day
                > probably cracking the paint. So you might have a neat visual effect up
                > there after a year or two.
                >
                > 11.4 All mounting racks I have seen have a gaps below for cooling the
                > Solar PV. Hot PVs produce less electricity.
                >
                > 11.5 All houses on the north side of the street could not have Solar
                > panels, which need to face south. But they could see the PVs of their
                > neighbor over the fence to the north. Not too fair, but good fodder for
                > a class action suite "North Vs South".
                >
                >
                >
                > Here ore some slides from a recent presentation that briefly covered
                > this subject.
                >
                >
                >
                > * Just an image -not 10kW !
                >
                >
                >
                > Home Owners Associations need to get with it. They should recognize that
                > solar PVs are a beautiful roof addition that show that their neighbor is
                > forward thinking community, and not a lame, out of date neighborhood to
                > live in.
                >
                >
                >
                > Gary Beck, P.E., SECB, LEED AP
                >
                > Eco-Holdings Engineering Services
                >
                > 4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd. Ste 114
                >
                > Houston, Texas 77025
                >
                > Tel: 713-377-4209 Fax: 832-201-5338
                >
                >
                >
                > SECB certified in the Practice of Structural Engineering, a structural
                > inspector for the Texas Residential Construction Commission SIRP
                > program, and a listed Engineer for the Texas Department of Insurance
                > Wind Storm program. Eco provides Engineering and Engineer's Inspection
                > Services for Residential, Commercial, Lodging, Educational, Industrial
                > and Government Facilities. Eco's design engineering services include
                > AutoCAD based construction documents for permitting and building
                > foundations, structures, storm water systems, and detention ponds; and
                > Autodesk Revit based 3D Building Information Modeling for green building
                > practices.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                > David Power
                > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:16 PM
                > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: Residential Deed Restrictions
                >
                >
                >
                > There are several bills working that will remove all restrictions on
                > solar installation unless they provide a hazard to persons or property.
                > Check with your legislator to make sure they are aware of these bills.
                >
                >
                >
                > David
                >
                > On Mar 19, 2009, at 10:01 AM, jay.ring@... wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > What my architectural guidelines say is this (My commentary follows):
                >
                > 11.1) The ACC will approve solar panels which are unobtrusive and which
                > blend in with the roof shingle color.
                >
                > 11.2) Parabolic colar collectors which are not mounted so as to be flusg
                > with the roof will not be approved.
                >
                > 11.3) Solor panel frames should be bronze or black in color in order to
                > best blend in with the shingles. All unfinished aluminum must be painted
                > the color of the shingles.
                >
                > 11.4) No solar panel should be mounted so that it extends above the roof
                > line.
                >
                > 11.5) The ACC would prefer to have solar panels mounted so they they are
                > not visible from the fronting street.
                >
                > Personally, I would like to see 5 stricken. The word "prefer" is
                > worthless and leaves too much wiggle room. I also don't really like the
                > rule ;)
                >
                > The rest I am okay with, I particularly like the phrasing "the ACC
                > -will- approve". That is very positive language.
                >
                > I like the idea of painting the frames to match the color.
                >
                > I have very mixed feelings about the phrasing "which blend in with
                the
                > roof shingle color". Does that mean blue panels are prohibited? It is
                > unclear, something that should be avoided in these types of documents. I
                > have to say, I personally don't think the blue panels look any worse,
                > but I also respect the opinions of my neighbors in this regard.
                >
                > On the whole, I would strike the line "which blend in with the roof
                > shingle color" and remove 11.5 completely.
                >
                > Otherwise, I am fairly happy with this language, and very very happy
                > with the phrase "will approve". I think if you get that language
                in the
                > document, the rest is less important.
                >
                > - Jay
                >
                > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:hreg%40yahoogroups.com> , "J P
                > Malone" <JPMALONE@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Can anyone recommended language to insert or remove from residential
                > Deed
                > > Restrictions/architectural Guidelines that would help the renewable
                > energy
                > > movement and reduce friction when installing Solar Panels, small wind
                > > generators, water collection barrels, etc.?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > My sub-division is changing its deed restrictions and we have to
                > submit
                > > recommended changes before April 1.
                > >
                >

              • Tyra Rankin
                Way to go, Gary, you are a hoot! Adore your comments - as much for the humor as the strengently accurate insight! Tyra _____ From: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 20, 2009
                • 0 Attachment

                   

                  Way to go, Gary , you are a hoot!  Adore your comments – as much for the humor as the strengently accurate insight!

                  Tyra 


                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Gary Beck
                  Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:22 PM
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [hreg] Re: Residential Deed Restrictions

                   

                  I'm sorry but I have little simpathy for HOAs that write new rules and get into areas in which they have zero expertise.  They should buy a hour of consulting time and get it right.  HOAs really need to be limited to keeping yards pretty, and even then recognizing that bluebonnets in a front yard may look like weeds until they bloom. (the eye of the beholder)

                   

                  I also know of HOAs that decided not just what roof color can be installed, but what model and make shingle can be used (when a board member's brother happened to own the closest roofing supply company).  Or the HOA that decided to buy their own neighborhood lighting with an HOA driven fund raiser, instead of using free city provided new replacement street lighting.  There was not enough money collected so only a portion of the neighborhood got the 'fancy' lights. And the group chose an open top globe light that shines so much light up into the sky that the Space shuttle could use the neighborhood for landing alignment purposes.

                   

                  My comments re your comments…

                  11.1   But what if you were 'green' enough to want a light colored or a white 'cool' roof on your house?  You would be declined because the panels do not match the roof.  That is the same as saying that you must park a red car in the garage instead of in the driveway because if does not match the garage door color.

                  11.2  Parobolic?  This is 1970's speak someone downloaded by mistake, unless they mean they are against a solar power liquid brine steam turbine generator plant in the backyard. 

                  11.3   A Solar PV system is an appliance, not a cladding.  So why paint something (adding work, cost, maintenance) when you don't have to?  And unpainted it better matches my preferred green light colored roof.

                  11.4  If 'roof line' is meant to mean  'ridge line' it should say 'ridge line' or even 'top of ridge plate' which is a clear framing term.  A 'roof line' moves depending on the viewers elevation (a short HOA board member might then have no problem!). 

                   

                  This HOA's rules are outdated and basically just not needed, and they should be stricken.  The fact that all this language can be misinterpreted means there will be room to decline anyone depending on the current politics of a the HOA.  Plus why should someone whose only sunny location is on the northern side not be allowed to mounted the panels on that side to face south. 

                   

                  The structural and safe construction rules are clear enough to keep it strong/safe/ stable in high winds. The safety issues are well handled by the International Residential and International Building Codes, which do not try to regulate the 'look' of anything, just the safety and performance of it.   Plus anyone who can afford solar PV will probably have a good looking and well planned out house design anyway.

                   

                  If you have not figured it out by know I am for smaller government, and I guess that now includes HOAs.

                   

                  Gary

                   

                   

                  From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of jay.ring@ymail. com
                  Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 9:42 AM
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: [hreg] Re: Residential Deed Restrictions

                   

                  I think you are being overly pessimistic. I think it's a reasonable standard. As for the particulars:

                  On 11.1 (color matching and unobtrusive) , I think it is very possible. In fact, the first picture you posted ("plan for solar energy") looks pretty unobtrusive and close in close.

                  On 11.3, (painting the frames black) I see no problem with painting aluminum black. I have lots of metal on my roof already (flashing, p[lumbing vents, and attic vents) and it is painted for corrosion prevention, and the color is in fact black. This is a common building practice.

                  On 11.4, (panels can not extend above roof line) - I think you have mis-interpreted the word "roofline". The roofline is the contour or silhouette of the house. It just means that you shouldn't be able to stand on the north side of the house and see panels mounted on the southside "over the roofline". It doesn't say you can't have an air-gap.

                  So I think you are being somewhat overly pessimistic on these.

                  On 11.2 (no parabolas), it is a little more complicated. It's a prohibition, based on aesthetics. I'd like to see what sort of thing they are prohibiting. I am inclined to leave it to the review committee, because I trust my neighbors to make the right decision :)

                  On 11.5, I have to agree with the sentiment. I think they look good too! There is no reason to penalize people on the north side.

                  I included 11.5 only for completeness so that other people would have a "full picture" of what a typical neighborhood might be. You can then view your own restrictions in full awareness.

                  Other than 11.5, I am pretty happy with these rules.

                  Being a solar enthusiast, I am of course included to want to liberalize it somewhat; but I also think it is important that solar enthusiasts make every effort to really make it look as good as possible, especially early in the revolution. We don't want the early adopters to give people a bad impression.

                  So, on the whole, I think they are pretty good.

                  - Jay

                  --- In hreg@yahoogroups. com, "Gary Beck" <eco@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > Here are my comments to these architectural guidelines -
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > 11.1 Not possible
                  >
                  > 11.2 Not possible
                  >
                  > 11.3 Unlikely unless you want a black or very dark blue roof - which
                  > is not too green. Also likely requires black or very dark blue epoxy
                  > painting of aluminum which would be a cool experiment since aluminum
                  > transfers heat so quickly it will expand and contract 'fast' every day
                  > probably cracking the paint. So you might have a neat visual effect up
                  > there after a year or two.
                  >
                  > 11.4 All mounting racks I have seen have a gaps below for cooling the
                  > Solar PV. Hot PVs produce less electricity.
                  >
                  > 11.5 All houses on the north side of the street could not have Solar
                  > panels, which need to face south. But they could see the PVs of their
                  > neighbor over the fence to the north. Not too fair, but good fodder for
                  > a class action suite "North Vs South".
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Here ore some slides from a recent presentation that briefly covered
                  > this subject.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > * Just an image -not 10kW !
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Home Owners Associations need to get with it. They should recognize that
                  > solar PVs are a beautiful roof addition that show that their neighbor is
                  > forward thinking community, and not a lame, out of date neighborhood to
                  > live in.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Gary Beck, P.E., SECB, LEED AP
                  >
                  > Eco-Holdings Engineering Services
                  >
                  > 4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd. Ste
                  114
                  >
                  > Houston ,
                  w:st="on">Texas 77025
                  >
                  > Tel: 713-377-4209 Fax: 832-201-5338
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SECB certified in the Practice of Structural Engineering, a structural
                  > inspector for the Texas Residential Construction Commission SIRP
                  > program, and a listed Engineer for the Texas Department of Insurance
                  > Wind Storm program. Eco provides Engineering and Engineer's Inspection
                  > Services for Residential, Commercial, Lodging, Educational, Industrial
                  > and Government Facilities. Eco's design engineering services include
                  > AutoCAD based construction documents for permitting and building
                  > foundations, structures, storm water systems, and detention ponds; and
                  > Autodesk Revit based 3D Building Information Modeling for green building
                  > practices.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                  [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
                  > David Power
                  > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:16 PM
                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: Residential Deed Restrictions
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > There are several bills working that will remove all restrictions on
                  > solar installation unless they provide a hazard to persons or property.
                  > Check with your legislator to make sure they are aware of these bills.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > David
                  >
                  > On Mar 19, 2009, at 10:01 AM, jay.ring@...
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > What my architectural guidelines say is this (My commentary follows):
                  >
                  > 11.1) The ACC will approve solar panels which are unobtrusive and which
                  > blend in with the roof shingle color.
                  >
                  > 11.2) Parabolic colar collectors which are not mounted so as to be flusg
                  > with the roof will not be approved.
                  >
                  > 11.3) Solor panel frames should be bronze or black in color in order to
                  > best blend in with the shingles. All unfinished aluminum must be painted
                  > the color of the shingles.
                  >
                  > 11.4) No solar panel should be mounted so that it extends above the roof
                  > line.
                  >
                  > 11.5) The ACC would prefer to have solar panels mounted so they they are
                  > not visible from the fronting street.
                  >
                  > Personally, I would like to see 5 stricken. The word "prefer" is
                  > worthless and leaves too much wiggle room. I also don't really like the
                  > rule ;)
                  >
                  > The rest I am okay with, I particularly like the phrasing "the ACC
                  > -will- approve". That is very positive language.
                  >
                  > I like the idea of painting the frames to match the color.
                  >
                  > I have very mixed feelings about the phrasing "which blend in with
                  the
                  > roof shingle color". Does that mean blue panels are prohibited? It is
                  > unclear, something that should be avoided in these types of documents. I
                  > have to say, I personally don't think the blue panels look any worse,
                  > but I also respect the opinions of my neighbors in this regard.
                  >
                  > On the whole, I would strike the line "which blend in with the roof
                  > shingle color" and remove 11.5 completely.
                  >
                  > Otherwise, I am fairly happy with this language, and very very happy
                  > with the phrase "will approve". I think if you get that language
                  in the
                  > document, the rest is less important.
                  >
                  > - Jay
                  >
                  > --- In hreg@yahoogroups. com
                  <mailto:hreg% 40yahoogroups. com> , "J P
                  > Malone" <JPMALONE@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Can anyone recommended language to insert or remove from residential
                  > Deed
                  > > Restrictions/ architectural Guidelines that would help the
                  renewable
                  > energy
                  > > movement and reduce friction when installing Solar Panels, small wind
                  > > generators, water collection barrels, etc.?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > My sub-division is changing its deed restrictions and we have to
                  > submit
                  > > recommended changes before April 1.
                  > >
                  >

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