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Re: [hreg] Is the U.S. responsible for repressive governments in Middle Eastern countries? [off topic response to Ahmad]

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  • Garth & Kim Travis
    Greetings, Yes, politics is part of renewable energy. A big part. If we want our economies to change to renewable, understand the current situation is basic
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 22 5:03 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Greetings,
      Yes, politics is part of renewable energy. A big part. If we want our
      economies to change to renewable, understand the current situation is
      basic to changing it. Want to install a system on your home, politics
      of the home owner board may have lots to do with it. So many way
      politics affects renewable energy that it is impossible to stop the
      political comment and still have a viable discussion group on renewables.

      There is delete key, every computer comes with one. The subject line
      lets you know which posts are on politics. It also says off topic.

      Calling someone else's post BS, is coming close to flaming, we do have
      manners on this list. If you don't want to read a post, don't.

      Bright Blessings,
      Kim

      Kerry Gregg wrote:
      > I also agree. I joined this group to keep up with the latest in
      > renewable energy, and people interested in renewable energy, in the
      > Houston area. I do not care to hear the political opinions of the
      > members here (sorry – but I get THAT on other lists:-).
      >
      >
      >
      > This will be MY first and last post on the issue. If this BS continues,
      > I’ll go elsewhere.
      >
      >
      >
      > Peace!
      >
      > Kerry
      >
      >
      >
      > *From:* hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
      > *Tom Ritter
      > *Sent:* Monday, July 21, 2008 5:37 PM
      > *To:* hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > *Subject:* RE: [hreg] Is the U.S. responsible for repressive governments
      > in Middle Eastern countries? [off topic response to Ahmad]
      >
      >
      >
      > Agreed!
      >
      >
      >
      > Tom
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > *From:* hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
      > *Neldon Costin
      > *Sent:* Monday, July 21, 2008 5:15 PM
      > *To:* hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > *Subject:* Re: [hreg] Is the U.S. responsible for repressive governments
      > in Middle Eastern countries? [off topic response to Ahmad]
      >
      >
      >
      > If this is renewable energy information, I think I joined the wrong group!!
      > I get enough e-mail without having to plow through all of this stuff.
      >
      > --- On *Sun, 7/20/08, Robert Johnston /<junk1@...>/* wrote:
      >
      > From: Robert Johnston <junk1@...>
      > Subject: [hreg] Is the U.S. responsible for repressive governments in
      > Middle Eastern countries? [off topic response to Ahmad]
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 11:52 PM
      >
      > Ahmad,
      >
      >
      >
      > Could it be that you are one of the MORE than 80% of US population that
      > has come here as an immigrant or temporary worker (pretty much all of us
      > but the Amerindians, and even they came as immigrants a few thousand
      > years earlier)? If so, why are you so resentful of the Indians,
      > Filipinos, etc., who have found gainful employment in the Middle East
      > building and servicing the oil-rich economies on behalf of the people
      > (or governments, as the case may be) of those states? Sorry for the
      > length of my remarks below, but your comment (and a previous one) struck
      > a nerve, and I want to respond but do so in what I hope is a
      > constructive manner--seeking to encourage conversation and dialogue, not
      > start a flame war.
      >
      >
      >
      > You apparently don’t like the governments in power in the Middle East.
      > I am sympathetic; I wouldn’t care to live in many of their countries
      > either. But the Iranians seem to be doing a good job of screwing up
      > their national economy and foreign relations without any help from the
      > US (note for example their expensive and wasteful fuel subsidies). As
      > for the other countries, I understand that in some oil-rich countries,
      > many nationals prefer desk jobs or collecting government checks than
      > working construction, refinery, shipping, service, etc., jobs. Hence
      > the number of Indians, Philipinos, etc, who work there. (Same reason so
      > many Mexicans readily find work here). Is the US is to blame for that,
      > other than its role, along with Europe, in buying lots of oil at high
      > prices and thereby providing the money to make the construction and
      > labor importation possible? Suppose the US didn’t support existing
      > governments. For example, suppose there was a Shiite uprising in Saudi
      > Arabia and Sunnis were overthrown. What would the new government do?
      > It would sell oil to the Americans and Europeans, just as the current
      > government does (and as the Iranians do, even though their government
      > hates us). It would spend the money on projects (or waste it on
      > subsidies). I suspect the U.S. government and companies wouldn’t really
      > care, so long as the new government supported stability and peace in the
      > Middle East and sold oil. The U.S. would prefer democratic governments
      > based on the rule of law, but history shows that the U.S. will support
      > other forms of government too when those governments are aligned with
      > U.S. interests. The U.S. foreign policy is primarily focused on
      > national security (military and economic), not spreading democracy
      > (i.e., we are friends with Singapore and China, and while we encourage
      > them to open their society/government, we don’t work to overthrow the
      > existing government). It seems naïve to assume it should be different.
      >
      >
      >
      > I think you should consider looking inward, not just focusing your venom
      > on the U.S. There is indeed a long history of intervention by Western
      > powers in the affairs of the Middle East, and oil is a part of the
      > reason for that (there are geo-strategic reasons also). I understand
      > how that has created resentments, especially among citizens wishing to
      > be freed from repressive governments that feed off that oil money. But
      > is it possible that you are blaming the U.S. for problems that it may
      > have contributed to, but is not primarily responsible for? Are you
      > ignoring the impact of other nations (such as Russia/former Soviet
      > Union, China, etc.) in Middle East geopolitics, the role of populist
      > nationalist leaders (Nasser and his pan-Arab dreams), kings (whether
      > empowered by the West or not, if the West were to topple current kings,
      > they would be accused of colonialism or worse), religion (more comments
      > below), and cultural traditions? In a world where the ebb and flow of
      > power between various people and governments is the stuff of history
      > since the dawn of civilization, can you really pin the problems of the
      > Middle East primarily on the U.S. and its actions? Is the US—or any
      > other nation—EXCLUSIVELY evil, or is it a mixture of good and evil?
      > Instead of calling it the Great Satan, would it be more productive to
      > seek to build relations with the US by focusing on the good? (much as
      > the US sought to open up trade and relations with its enemy China in the
      > 1970’s during the Nixon administration) . Is the repetitive mantra of
      > US evil a convenient escape from personal and national responsibility
      > for societal failures and injustices?
      >
      >
      >
      > A popular idea (at least among the left) is that Western Colonial powers
      > are responsible for much of the political instability in the world:
      > Africa, Middle East, Asia, etc. But consider the evidence: (1) evil,
      > war, corruption, victimization of the poor, resource exploitation, etc.
      > all existed for thousands of years before Western liberal democracies
      > were thought about. The Egyptian pyramids, for example, attest to each
      > of these characteristics in a Middle Eastern society thousands of years
      > ago, free of any influence by the U.S., IMF, World Bank, Bush, Cheney,
      > etc. (There /is/ a story in the Torah about Moses and a burning bush,
      > but that isn’t the same bush as our current president, much as you might
      > like him to burn!). (2) Democracy and political stability HAS taken
      > root in many former colonial countries—the U.S. being an example. (3)
      > Totalitarian, anti-democratic, oppressive and corrupt governments have
      > been established in many non-colonial countries too. Russia would be
      > just one example. (4) History is “open”, indeterminate and dynamic;
      > while each plays a part and does affect the course of history, one can’t
      > blame a particular person, time, place, or event for all that follows.
      > For example, African Americans may be here because of slavery, but to
      > argue as some do that this is PRIMARILY responsible for high levels of
      > drug abuse and crime among black US males today is questionable (as B.
      > Obama and B. Cosby, among other black leaders, have courageously said).
      > The current generation must take responsibility for their own choices.
      > Likewise, while the U.S. etc. may be involved in supporting Middle
      > Eastern governments—some of whom might even be viewed as corrupt or
      > oppressive by some in their populations—blaming the U.S. shouldn’t be
      > the major focus. The population and culture itself must take
      > responsibility for the role they have played in getting people to where
      > they are (or aren’t) today. Individuals—and entire nations—can have a
      > “victim” attitude or they can take personal responsibility. It is a
      > choice. Several Arab nations have had opportunities to take hold of
      > democracy and the rule of law, but have failed because they have
      > preferred to cling to populist, nationalist leaders and to false
      > worldviews and bankrupt ideologies (including terrorism).
      >
      >
      >
      > So what is the response of the Arab street and its populist leaders?
      > Hasn’t it been to blame external powers? By leading the populace—like
      > Ahmad— to blame external powers, populist leaders show their own
      > corruption, contributing to the myth that Arabs are powerless and that
      > their governments can’t be held accountable because they are at the
      > mercy of foreign powers. By responding with such joy (as we witnessed
      > on TV) to the news of 9/11 destruction, the Arab street showed that they
      > are focused on vengeance towards perceived aggressors rather than
      > building a just society in their own neighborhoods. By leading the
      > people to believe they are powerless, populist leaders open the way for
      > extremists to convince young men and women to blow themselves and
      > innocent civilians up. That they would resort to such a horrific tool
      > shows not only the desperation of the people but the cynicism of their
      > leaders—they encourage such random violence because they know that
      > societies having any shred of justice will pull back in horror from such
      > evil. Thus, they can and do influence Western opinion, but they fail to
      > help their people.
      >
      >
      >
      > Though this may offend--and I really don’t want to--I wonder if there is
      > a religious connection, especially because some populist leaders have
      > strong religious links (Sadr, for example). I can’t help but wonder if
      > some of this isn’t related to Islam itself, particularly its more
      > fundamentalist elements. A religion that uses government power to
      > enforce its beliefs on the population (religious police), that prohibits
      > freedom of conscience in its own territory (conversion to non-Islamic
      > religions being forbidden in many states, for instance), that punishes
      > proselytizers, that subjugates women and deprives them of freedom in
      > numerous ways, that uses public money to fund religious education
      > instead of promoting science and liberal philosophy—such a religion
      > surely must play a major role in defining a culture where democracy
      > seems to have a difficult time thriving? It isn’t just the Middle
      > East. Look at Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan. Stable democracies have
      > eluded these Islamic nations as well. I wonder if democracy and the
      > freedom from oppressive government that Ahmad wants in the Middle East
      > is even possible in such a suppressed, fundamentalist culture? In
      > short, to what extent is religion-derived repression responsible for
      > lack of freedom and democracy, and how does this contribution compare in
      > size to the impact of Western governments, institutions and businesses?
      > The religious police that walk the streets of Tehran or Riyadh are not
      > the work of the IMF or the US government, yet the religious police and
      > their religious leaders support (in the case of Saudi Arabia) the
      > government that some resent for being aligned with the West. I
      > understand it is a bargain between the Wahabists and the government that
      > keeps the king in power in Saudi Arabia; each agrees to support the other.
      >
      >
      >
      > IS THERE something in Islam upon which one can build the concepts of
      > democracy and personal liberty into a society? Would a government based
      > on these concepts be viewed as just and good by the population of Middle
      > Eastern states? Or is democracy a concept that fundamentally
      > contradicts Islam? If that is the case, then what, Ahmad, is the kind
      > of government you would like to see? Is it one that is corrupt and
      > oppressive of those who disagree with YOU (i.e., the current governments
      > are only perceived as oppressive because you happen to be of the wrong
      > tribe, sect, etc.)? If, on the other hand, Islam is consistent with
      > democracy, then what are the building blocks (in Islam) that you think
      > would allow a strong democracy to be built? How do you propose that
      > this could be brought about? Do you think governments of Islamic
      > nations could ever support the equivalent of the U.S. Bill of Rights or
      > the E.U.’s statement on human rights?
      >
      >
      > Robert
      >
      >
      >
      > *From:* hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] *On Behalf
      > Of *Solar Energy
      > *Sent:* Sunday, July 20, 2008 7:41 PM
      > *To:* hreg@yahoogroups. com
      > *Subject:* Re: [hreg] Re: Trimming posts was : List owners note : was
      > Why can't we do thi
      >
      >
      >
      > This is just one of the 101 ways foreign corporations, banks, the IMF,
      > the World Bank .. Bush, Dick Cheney and 1000s of others looting the
      > resources of these nations using the US military forces to keep these
      > corrupt regimes in power to legalize their theft of nations. The UAE &
      > Dubail could reduce their CO2 by 80% just by deporting 80% of the
      > population who are all from other countries. the ratio of foreign to
      > local is 5:1. If the US does the same, the US population would be 1.5
      > billion.
      >
      > Ahmad
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Garth & Kim Travis
      Greetings, Sorry Mike, hadn t read your response yet. Bright Blessings, Kim
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 22 5:10 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Greetings,
        Sorry Mike, hadn't read your response yet.
        Bright Blessings,
        Kim
      • Bashir Syed
        The problem lies with only looking at the Illuminated Side of the Moon, and no one cares to look at the DARK side, coupled with tolerance. I just returned from
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 22 6:40 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          The problem lies with only looking at the Illuminated Side of the Moon, and
          no one cares to look at the DARK side, coupled with tolerance. I just
          returned from a short visit to Middle East, and once you land in DUBAI, you
          sense the presence of Multicultural folks who have been hired to do the jobs
          which the locals partly due to lack of education and partly because of EASY
          GOING life with Petro-Dollars do not want to axccept thus the vacuum is
          filled with ALIENS (Definition: Inhabitants of a different Planet). The
          Media too has been responsible in creating distorted images of the region
          because of charged political environment in the Middle East. We have seen
          similar days prior to the changes brought by LBJ through Human Rights laws
          to alter the thinking of people during the last four decades. But as human
          nature goes Prejudice is part and parcel of all human beings. Let us develop
          tolerance for each other's views and try to make this world a better place
          for all.

          Bashir A. Syed
          Member: ASES & Sr. Member ISES

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Garth & Kim Travis" <gartht@...>
          To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 7:03 AM
          Subject: Re: [hreg] Is the U.S. responsible for repressive governments in
          Middle Eastern countries? [off topic response to Ahmad]


          > Greetings,
          > Yes, politics is part of renewable energy. A big part. If we want our
          > economies to change to renewable, understand the current situation is
          > basic to changing it. Want to install a system on your home, politics
          > of the home owner board may have lots to do with it. So many way
          > politics affects renewable energy that it is impossible to stop the
          > political comment and still have a viable discussion group on renewables.
          >
          > There is delete key, every computer comes with one. The subject line
          > lets you know which posts are on politics. It also says off topic.
          >
          > Calling someone else's post BS, is coming close to flaming, we do have
          > manners on this list. If you don't want to read a post, don't.
          >
          > Bright Blessings,
          > Kim
          >
          > Kerry Gregg wrote:
          >> I also agree. I joined this group to keep up with the latest in
          >> renewable energy, and people interested in renewable energy, in the
          >> Houston area. I do not care to hear the political opinions of the
          >> members here (sorry – but I get THAT on other lists:-).
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> This will be MY first and last post on the issue. If this BS continues,
          >> I’ll go elsewhere.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Peace!
          >>
          >> Kerry
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> *From:* hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
          >> *Tom Ritter
          >> *Sent:* Monday, July 21, 2008 5:37 PM
          >> *To:* hreg@yahoogroups.com
          >> *Subject:* RE: [hreg] Is the U.S. responsible for repressive governments
          >> in Middle Eastern countries? [off topic response to Ahmad]
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Agreed!
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Tom
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> *From:* hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
          >> *Neldon Costin
          >> *Sent:* Monday, July 21, 2008 5:15 PM
          >> *To:* hreg@yahoogroups.com
          >> *Subject:* Re: [hreg] Is the U.S. responsible for repressive governments
          >> in Middle Eastern countries? [off topic response to Ahmad]
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> If this is renewable energy information, I think I joined the wrong
          >> group!!
          >> I get enough e-mail without having to plow through all of this stuff.
          >>
          >> --- On *Sun, 7/20/08, Robert Johnston /<junk1@...>/* wrote:
          >>
          >> From: Robert Johnston <junk1@...>
          >> Subject: [hreg] Is the U.S. responsible for repressive governments in
          >> Middle Eastern countries? [off topic response to Ahmad]
          >> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          >> Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 11:52 PM
          >>
          >> Ahmad,
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Could it be that you are one of the MORE than 80% of US population that
          >> has come here as an immigrant or temporary worker (pretty much all of us
          >> but the Amerindians, and even they came as immigrants a few thousand
          >> years earlier)? If so, why are you so resentful of the Indians,
          >> Filipinos, etc., who have found gainful employment in the Middle East
          >> building and servicing the oil-rich economies on behalf of the people
          >> (or governments, as the case may be) of those states? Sorry for the
          >> length of my remarks below, but your comment (and a previous one) struck
          >> a nerve, and I want to respond but do so in what I hope is a
          >> constructive manner--seeking to encourage conversation and dialogue, not
          >> start a flame war.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> You apparently don’t like the governments in power in the Middle East.
          >> I am sympathetic; I wouldn’t care to live in many of their countries
          >> either. But the Iranians seem to be doing a good job of screwing up
          >> their national economy and foreign relations without any help from the
          >> US (note for example their expensive and wasteful fuel subsidies). As
          >> for the other countries, I understand that in some oil-rich countries,
          >> many nationals prefer desk jobs or collecting government checks than
          >> working construction, refinery, shipping, service, etc., jobs. Hence
          >> the number of Indians, Philipinos, etc, who work there. (Same reason so
          >> many Mexicans readily find work here). Is the US is to blame for that,
          >> other than its role, along with Europe, in buying lots of oil at high
          >> prices and thereby providing the money to make the construction and
          >> labor importation possible? Suppose the US didn’t support existing
          >> governments. For example, suppose there was a Shiite uprising in Saudi
          >> Arabia and Sunnis were overthrown. What would the new government do?
          >> It would sell oil to the Americans and Europeans, just as the current
          >> government does (and as the Iranians do, even though their government
          >> hates us). It would spend the money on projects (or waste it on
          >> subsidies). I suspect the U.S. government and companies wouldn’t really
          >> care, so long as the new government supported stability and peace in the
          >> Middle East and sold oil. The U.S. would prefer democratic governments
          >> based on the rule of law, but history shows that the U.S. will support
          >> other forms of government too when those governments are aligned with
          >> U.S. interests. The U.S. foreign policy is primarily focused on
          >> national security (military and economic), not spreading democracy
          >> (i.e., we are friends with Singapore and China, and while we encourage
          >> them to open their society/government, we don’t work to overthrow the
          >> existing government). It seems naïve to assume it should be different.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> I think you should consider looking inward, not just focusing your venom
          >> on the U.S. There is indeed a long history of intervention by Western
          >> powers in the affairs of the Middle East, and oil is a part of the
          >> reason for that (there are geo-strategic reasons also). I understand
          >> how that has created resentments, especially among citizens wishing to
          >> be freed from repressive governments that feed off that oil money. But
          >> is it possible that you are blaming the U.S. for problems that it may
          >> have contributed to, but is not primarily responsible for? Are you
          >> ignoring the impact of other nations (such as Russia/former Soviet
          >> Union, China, etc.) in Middle East geopolitics, the role of populist
          >> nationalist leaders (Nasser and his pan-Arab dreams), kings (whether
          >> empowered by the West or not, if the West were to topple current kings,
          >> they would be accused of colonialism or worse), religion (more comments
          >> below), and cultural traditions? In a world where the ebb and flow of
          >> power between various people and governments is the stuff of history
          >> since the dawn of civilization, can you really pin the problems of the
          >> Middle East primarily on the U.S. and its actions? Is the US—or any
          >> other nation—EXCLUSIVELY evil, or is it a mixture of good and evil?
          >> Instead of calling it the Great Satan, would it be more productive to
          >> seek to build relations with the US by focusing on the good? (much as
          >> the US sought to open up trade and relations with its enemy China in the
          >> 1970’s during the Nixon administration) . Is the repetitive mantra of
          >> US evil a convenient escape from personal and national responsibility
          >> for societal failures and injustices?
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> A popular idea (at least among the left) is that Western Colonial powers
          >> are responsible for much of the political instability in the world:
          >> Africa, Middle East, Asia, etc. But consider the evidence: (1) evil,
          >> war, corruption, victimization of the poor, resource exploitation, etc.
          >> all existed for thousands of years before Western liberal democracies
          >> were thought about. The Egyptian pyramids, for example, attest to each
          >> of these characteristics in a Middle Eastern society thousands of years
          >> ago, free of any influence by the U.S., IMF, World Bank, Bush, Cheney,
          >> etc. (There /is/ a story in the Torah about Moses and a burning bush,
          >> but that isn’t the same bush as our current president, much as you might
          >> like him to burn!). (2) Democracy and political stability HAS taken
          >> root in many former colonial countries—the U.S. being an example. (3)
          >> Totalitarian, anti-democratic, oppressive and corrupt governments have
          >> been established in many non-colonial countries too. Russia would be
          >> just one example. (4) History is “open”, indeterminate and dynamic;
          >> while each plays a part and does affect the course of history, one can’t
          >> blame a particular person, time, place, or event for all that follows.
          >> For example, African Americans may be here because of slavery, but to
          >> argue as some do that this is PRIMARILY responsible for high levels of
          >> drug abuse and crime among black US males today is questionable (as B.
          >> Obama and B. Cosby, among other black leaders, have courageously said).
          >> The current generation must take responsibility for their own choices.
          >> Likewise, while the U.S. etc. may be involved in supporting Middle
          >> Eastern governments—some of whom might even be viewed as corrupt or
          >> oppressive by some in their populations—blaming the U.S. shouldn’t be
          >> the major focus. The population and culture itself must take
          >> responsibility for the role they have played in getting people to where
          >> they are (or aren’t) today. Individuals—and entire nations—can have a
          >> “victim” attitude or they can take personal responsibility. It is a
          >> choice. Several Arab nations have had opportunities to take hold of
          >> democracy and the rule of law, but have failed because they have
          >> preferred to cling to populist, nationalist leaders and to false
          >> worldviews and bankrupt ideologies (including terrorism).
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> So what is the response of the Arab street and its populist leaders?
          >> Hasn’t it been to blame external powers? By leading the populace—like
          >> Ahmad— to blame external powers, populist leaders show their own
          >> corruption, contributing to the myth that Arabs are powerless and that
          >> their governments can’t be held accountable because they are at the
          >> mercy of foreign powers. By responding with such joy (as we witnessed
          >> on TV) to the news of 9/11 destruction, the Arab street showed that they
          >> are focused on vengeance towards perceived aggressors rather than
          >> building a just society in their own neighborhoods. By leading the
          >> people to believe they are powerless, populist leaders open the way for
          >> extremists to convince young men and women to blow themselves and
          >> innocent civilians up. That they would resort to such a horrific tool
          >> shows not only the desperation of the people but the cynicism of their
          >> leaders—they encourage such random violence because they know that
          >> societies having any shred of justice will pull back in horror from such
          >> evil. Thus, they can and do influence Western opinion, but they fail to
          >> help their people.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Though this may offend--and I really don’t want to--I wonder if there is
          >> a religious connection, especially because some populist leaders have
          >> strong religious links (Sadr, for example). I can’t help but wonder if
          >> some of this isn’t related to Islam itself, particularly its more
          >> fundamentalist elements. A religion that uses government power to
          >> enforce its beliefs on the population (religious police), that prohibits
          >> freedom of conscience in its own territory (conversion to non-Islamic
          >> religions being forbidden in many states, for instance), that punishes
          >> proselytizers, that subjugates women and deprives them of freedom in
          >> numerous ways, that uses public money to fund religious education
          >> instead of promoting science and liberal philosophy—such a religion
          >> surely must play a major role in defining a culture where democracy
          >> seems to have a difficult time thriving? It isn’t just the Middle
          >> East. Look at Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan. Stable democracies have
          >> eluded these Islamic nations as well. I wonder if democracy and the
          >> freedom from oppressive government that Ahmad wants in the Middle East
          >> is even possible in such a suppressed, fundamentalist culture? In
          >> short, to what extent is religion-derived repression responsible for
          >> lack of freedom and democracy, and how does this contribution compare in
          >> size to the impact of Western governments, institutions and businesses?
          >> The religious police that walk the streets of Tehran or Riyadh are not
          >> the work of the IMF or the US government, yet the religious police and
          >> their religious leaders support (in the case of Saudi Arabia) the
          >> government that some resent for being aligned with the West. I
          >> understand it is a bargain between the Wahabists and the government that
          >> keeps the king in power in Saudi Arabia; each agrees to support the
          >> other.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> IS THERE something in Islam upon which one can build the concepts of
          >> democracy and personal liberty into a society? Would a government based
          >> on these concepts be viewed as just and good by the population of Middle
          >> Eastern states? Or is democracy a concept that fundamentally
          >> contradicts Islam? If that is the case, then what, Ahmad, is the kind
          >> of government you would like to see? Is it one that is corrupt and
          >> oppressive of those who disagree with YOU (i.e., the current governments
          >> are only perceived as oppressive because you happen to be of the wrong
          >> tribe, sect, etc.)? If, on the other hand, Islam is consistent with
          >> democracy, then what are the building blocks (in Islam) that you think
          >> would allow a strong democracy to be built? How do you propose that
          >> this could be brought about? Do you think governments of Islamic
          >> nations could ever support the equivalent of the U.S. Bill of Rights or
          >> the E.U.’s statement on human rights?
          >>
          >>
          >> Robert
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> *From:* hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] *On Behalf
          >> Of *Solar Energy
          >> *Sent:* Sunday, July 20, 2008 7:41 PM
          >> *To:* hreg@yahoogroups. com
          >> *Subject:* Re: [hreg] Re: Trimming posts was : List owners note : was
          >> Why can't we do thi
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> This is just one of the 101 ways foreign corporations, banks, the IMF,
          >> the World Bank .. Bush, Dick Cheney and 1000s of others looting the
          >> resources of these nations using the US military forces to keep these
          >> corrupt regimes in power to legalize their theft of nations. The UAE &
          >> Dubail could reduce their CO2 by 80% just by deporting 80% of the
          >> population who are all from other countries. the ratio of foreign to
          >> local is 5:1. If the US does the same, the US population would be 1.5
          >> billion.
          >>
          >> Ahmad
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Garth & Kim Travis
          Greetings, Robert, I am not sure that anything was directed at you. I do believe it was at the person who called your posts names. However, As this group
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 22 8:54 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Greetings,
            Robert, I am not sure that anything was directed at you. I do believe
            it was at the person who called your posts names. However, As this
            group gets larger, we do have more varied opinions of what should be
            discussed and what shouldn't.

            We already have one spin off group for HREG, the HREGTHINKTANK for
            speculative science that is not welcome on this list. Perhaps it is
            time to start a HREGPOLITICS list as well.

            The rules of the list are rewritten from time to time. In the
            beginning, when we were still on egroups, there was no need to even put
            OT in front of a subject. The only rules then was no flaming, no foul
            language and no porn.

            What does the group think? Does anyone want a list for renewable energy
            politics?

            Bright Blessings,
            Kim

            Robert Johnston wrote:
            > Sorry. I included “Off Topic” in my subject line following the rules
            > laid out by Kim (see below) in 2007—here is my subject line, before you
            > truncated it in your response: “Is the U.S. responsible for repressive
            > governments in Middle Eastern countries? [off topic response to Ahmad]”.
            >
            >
          • phil6142@aol.com
            For my part I think there are two very different types of politics.  The type of information that we get from Nan about current actions and information about
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 22 9:33 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              For my part I think there are two very different types of politics.  The type of information that we get from Nan about current actions and information about local or statewide happenings, or current HOA rules and how to work with those

              and another type of politics that is discussing things that are largely a matter of opinion or rhetoric about this or forgien countries.  Perhaps for some it is hard to see the difference but to me it is obvious.  I would hate to have to dig through a bunch of political rhetoric to get the updates on local renewable energy current events.  As for my part I have no problem deleting an email that has OT at the start of the subject line.  I would prefer to keep one list so that I don't miss out on relevant local happenings.

              Phillip


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@...>
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:54 am
              Subject: Re: [hreg] Please stop this topic - Is the U.S. responsible for repressive governments in Middle Eastern countries?

              Greetings,
              Robert, I am not sure that anything was directed at you.  I do believe 
              it was at the person who called your posts names.  However, As this 
              group gets larger, we do have more varied opinions of20what should be 
              discussed and what shouldn't.
              
              We already have one spin off group for HREG, the HREGTHINKTANK for 
              speculative science that is not welcome on this list.  Perhaps it is 
              time to start a HREGPOLITICS list as well.
              
              The rules of the list are rewritten from time to time.  In the 
              beginning, when we were still on egroups, there was no need to even put 
              OT in front of a subject.  The only rules then was no flaming, no foul 
              language and no porn.
              
              What does the group think?  Does anyone want a list for renewable energy 
              politics?
              
              Bright Blessings,
              Kim
              
              Robert Johnston wrote:
              
              > Sorry. I included “Off Topic” in my subject line following the rules > laid out by Kim (see below) in 2007—here is my subject line, before you > truncated it in your response: “Is the U.S. responsible for repressive > governments in Middle Eastern countries? [off topic response to Ahmad]”. > >
              ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hreg/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hreg/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To=2 0change settings via email: mailto:hreg-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:hreg-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: hreg-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • evelyn sardina
              I agree with this too. I have been able to participate on some of the events that aim to change legislation and would like to continue recieving the
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 22 9:52 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                I agree with this too. I have been able to participate on some of the events that aim to change legislation and would like to continue recieving the information. I'll just delete what I don't want to read. Did you guys see the article in the paper about the owner of Dans Hardware store in Spring? He has started a group for anyone who would like to brainstorm and invent things that will help our energy needs. Seems since people are getting tired of waiting for goverment to do things they are taking matters into their own hands. Should be interesting to see what they come up with. In the mean time I will be inviting the owner to the Hreg meetings and see if he would like to come....

                --- On Tue, 7/22/08, phil6142@... <phil6142@...> wrote:
                From: phil6142@... <phil6142@...>
                Subject: Re: [hreg] Please stop this topic - Is the U.S. responsible for repressive governments in Middle Eastern countries?
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 11:33 AM

                For my part I think there are two very different types of politics.  The type of information that we get from Nan about current actions and information about local or statewide happenings, or current HOA rules and how to work with those

                and another type of politics that is discussing things that are largely a matter of opinion or rhetoric about this or forgien countries.  Perhaps for some it is hard to see the difference but to me it is obvious.  I would hate to have to dig through a bunch of political rhetoric to get the updates on local renewable energy current events.  As for my part I have no problem deleting an email that has OT at the start of the subject line.  I would prefer to keep one list so that I don't miss out on relevant local happenings.

                Phillip


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@txcyber. com>
                To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:54 am
                Subject: Re: [hreg] Please stop this topic - Is the U.S. responsible for repressive governments in Middle Eastern countries?

                Greetings,
                Robert, I am not sure that anything was directed at you.  I do believe 
                it was at the person who called your posts names.  However, As this 
                group gets larger, we do have more varied opinions of20what should be 
                discussed and what shouldn't.
                
                We already have one spin off group for HREG, the HREGTHINKTANK for 
                speculative science that is not welcome on this list.  Perhaps it is 
                time to start a HREGPOLITICS list as well.
                
                The rules of the list are rewritten from time to time.  In the 
                beginning, when we were still on egroups, there was no need to even put 
                OT in front of a subject.  The only rules then was no flaming, no foul 
                language and no porn.
                
                What does the group think?  Does anyone want a list for renewable energy 
                politics?
                
                Bright Blessings,
                Kim
                
                Robert Johnston wrote:
                > Sorry.  I included “Off Topic” in my subject line following the rules 
                > laid out by Kim (see below) in 2007—here is my subject line, before you 
                > truncated it in your response:  “Is the U.S. responsible for repressive 
                > governments in Middle Eastern countries? [off topic response to Ahmad]”.
                > 
                >  
                
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