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Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

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  • Garth & Kim Travis
    Greetings, Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are food,
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
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      Greetings,

      Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
      real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
      food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
      products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
      question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
      what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
      refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
      a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.

      Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
      questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
      eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
      why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
      are poorly phrased, the research is useless.

      The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
      the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
      solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
      we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.

      A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
      portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
      our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
      to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
      grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
      this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
      to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?

      Bright Blessings,
      Kim

      J P Malone wrote:
      > Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
      >
    • J P Malone
      I never mentioned virgin product usage , that was your statement. The original question was Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
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        I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
        The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
        energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?

        My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level research,
        merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.

        One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
        Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
        learn more about how to be green.

        Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping the
        continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't have
        time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
        start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed opinion.




        -----Original Message-----
        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
        & Kim Travis
        Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

        Greetings,

        Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
        real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
        food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
        products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
        question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
        what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
        refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
        a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.

        Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
        questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
        eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
        why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
        are poorly phrased, the research is useless.

        The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
        the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
        solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
        we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.

        A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
        portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
        our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
        to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
        grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
        this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
        to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?

        Bright Blessings,
        Kim

        J P Malone wrote:
        > Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
        >

        Original question:
        "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
        reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than land
        crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
        gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be most
        effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste and
        excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."

        Wikipedia

        Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
        acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?



        No virus found in this outgoing message.
        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
        8:45 PM
      • Kevin Conlin
        I agree, in a world of dwindling resources a cooperative approach will be more sustainable than a competitive one. ________________________ Kevin Conlin
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
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          I agree, in a world of dwindling resources a cooperative approach will be more sustainable than a competitive one.

           

           

          ________________________

          Kevin Conlin

          Solarcraft, Inc.

          4007 C Greenbriar

          Stafford, TX 77477-4536

          Local (281) 340-1224

          Toll Free (877) 340-1224

          Fax 281 340 1230

          Cell 281 960 8979

          kconlin@...

          www.solarcraft.net

           

          Please make a note of our new contact information above.

           


          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
          Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 7:56 PM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

           

          Well, then consider this. I read in a newsletter this weekend that because
          people are getting upset at globalization and free trade, nations are
          becoming more self-sufficient, but at great expense. Witness: U.S. growing
          corn etc. for biofuel so that it can be less dependent on petroleum imports
          from the Middle East. Saudi Arabia installing water desalinization plants
          so that it can grow wheat in the desert and import less from US. Where's
          the sense in that? Seems to me that trading would be the better way to go.

          Robert Johnston

        • evelyn sardina
          I am currently reading ENERGY AUTONOMY by Hermann Scheer. He talks about how Germany is doing it and how everyone else can too. He is very thourough and
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            I am currently reading ENERGY AUTONOMY by Hermann Scheer. He talks about how Germany is doing it and how everyone else can too. He is very thourough and explains what Willie Nelson said this weekend when Amy Goodman interviewed him..... " Biodisel and other forms of bio mass works well only when used locally. If you have to transport it, it looses it's effectiveness" It should be used in conjuction with other forms of energy that interrelate and compliment each other. It is supposed to use something that otherwise would have been discarded and it should be done in a sustainable way."  Cna you say permaculture? Hermann Scheer ( as I interpret ) says that the main way is going to be descentralizing energy so that each area uses the form of energy that is most complimentary to him. I got the book from the University of Texas in San Antonio as an interlibrary loan. It took me about 3 months to get it 'cause you have to fight the college kids to get it. Might be better off getting at a book store. The book is full of information and detail as to how the whole thing can be done. Gotta read the book!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Evelyn

            Kevin Conlin <kconlin@...> wrote:
            I agree, in a world of dwindling resources a cooperative approach will be more sustainable than a competitive one.
            ____________ _________ ___
            Kevin Conlin
            Solarcraft, Inc.
            4007 C Greenbriar
            Stafford, TX 77477-4536
            Local (281) 340-1224
            Toll Free (877) 340-1224
            Fax 281 340 1230
            Cell 281 960 8979
            Please make a note of our new contact information above.

            From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
            Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 7:56 PM
            To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
            Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
            Well, then consider this. I read in a newsletter this weekend that because
            people are getting upset at globalization and free trade, nations are
            becoming more self-sufficient, but at great expense. Witness: U.S. growing
            corn etc. for biofuel so that it can be less dependent on petroleum imports
            from the Middle East. Saudi Arabia installing water desalinization plants
            so that it can grow wheat in the desert and import less from US. Where's
            the sense in that? Seems to me that trading would be the better way to go.

            Robert Johnston


            Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

          • Garth & Kim Travis
            Greetings, Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre? What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop for
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Greetings,
              Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
              What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
              for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

              How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
              environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
              do so.

              Bright Blessings,
              Kim

              J P Malone wrote:
              > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
              > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
              > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
              >
              > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level research,
              > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
              >
              > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
              > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
              > learn more about how to be green.
              >
              > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping the
              > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't have
              > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
              > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed opinion.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
              > & Kim Travis
              > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
              > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
              >
              > Greetings,
              >
              > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
              > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
              > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
              > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
              > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
              > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
              > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
              > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
              >
              > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
              > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
              > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
              > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
              > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
              >
              > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
              > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
              > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
              > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
              >
              > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
              > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
              > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
              > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
              > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
              > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
              > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
              >
              > Bright Blessings,
              > Kim
              >
              > J P Malone wrote:
              >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
              >>
              >
              > Original question:
              > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
              > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than land
              > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
              > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be most
              > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste and
              > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
              >
              > Wikipedia
              >
              > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
              > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
              >
              >
              >
              > No virus found in this outgoing message.
              > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
              > 8:45 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • J P Malone
              I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow switch grass,
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what
                crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow
                switch grass, bamboo, corn, algae, soybeans. Which will yield the highest
                amount of fuel, BTU, whatever the proper unit of measure maybe for the
                amount of land it takes to grow each crop. Like a retail store that measure
                profit dollars per square foot of rent paid. It is basic commerce. If my
                family owns 114,532 acres of land which currently grows switch grass is
                there another crop that will give me more energy biofuel per acre than
                switch grass (will it move a car further than what I am currently growing).

                That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that’s your
                label. To me it is a simple question.

                Does such a database exist? Period.

                I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.

                Thanks.



                -----Original Message-----
                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                & Kim Travis
                Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:05 PM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                Greetings,
                Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
                What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
                for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

                How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
                environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
                do so.

                Bright Blessings,
                Kim

                J P Malone wrote:
                > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                >
                > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level
                research,
                > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
                >
                > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                > learn more about how to be green.
                >
                > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping
                the
                > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't
                have
                > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed
                opinion.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Garth
                > & Kim Travis
                > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                >
                > Greetings,
                >
                > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
                >
                > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
                >
                > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
                >
                > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
                >
                > Bright Blessings,
                > Kim
                >
                > J P Malone wrote:
                >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                >>
                >
                > Original question:
                > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than
                land
                > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be
                most
                > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste
                and
                > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
                >
                > Wikipedia
                >
                > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                >
                >
                >
                > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                > 8:45 PM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >



                Yahoo! Groups Links




                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                8:45 PM


                No virus found in this outgoing message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                8:45 PM
              • Ed Sarlls
                Try http://www.nrel.gov/ If the information is available they will have it. Ed Sarlls ... From: J P Malone To:
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Try http://www.nrel.gov/ If the information is available they will have it.
                  Ed Sarlls


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "J P Malone" <JPMALONE@...>
                  To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:38 PM
                  Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel


                  I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what
                  crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow
                  switch grass, bamboo, corn, algae, soybeans. Which will yield the highest
                  amount of fuel, BTU, whatever the proper unit of measure maybe for the
                  amount of land it takes to grow each crop. Like a retail store that measure
                  profit dollars per square foot of rent paid. It is basic commerce. If my
                  family owns 114,532 acres of land which currently grows switch grass is
                  there another crop that will give me more energy biofuel per acre than
                  switch grass (will it move a car further than what I am currently growing).

                  That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                  consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                  product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that’s your
                  label. To me it is a simple question.

                  Does such a database exist? Period.

                  I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                  database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.

                  Thanks.



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                  & Kim Travis
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:05 PM
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                  Greetings,
                  Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
                  What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
                  for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

                  How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
                  environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
                  do so.

                  Bright Blessings,
                  Kim

                  J P Malone wrote:
                  > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                  > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                  > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                  >
                  > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level
                  research,
                  > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
                  >
                  > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                  > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                  > learn more about how to be green.
                  >
                  > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping
                  the
                  > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't
                  have
                  > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                  > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed
                  opinion.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  Garth
                  > & Kim Travis
                  > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                  >
                  > Greetings,
                  >
                  > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                  > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                  > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                  > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                  > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                  > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                  > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                  > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
                  >
                  > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                  > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                  > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                  > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                  > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
                  >
                  > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                  > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                  > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                  > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
                  >
                  > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                  > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                  > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                  > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                  > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                  > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                  > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
                  >
                  > Bright Blessings,
                  > Kim
                  >
                  > J P Malone wrote:
                  >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                  >>
                  >
                  > Original question:
                  > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                  > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than
                  land
                  > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                  > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be
                  most
                  > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste
                  and
                  > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
                  >
                  > Wikipedia
                  >
                  > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                  > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                  > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                  > 8:45 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  Yahoo! Groups Links




                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                  8:45 PM


                  No virus found in this outgoing message.
                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                  8:45 PM





                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Neil Smith
                  Why don t all us crazed green folk buy some property. That way we can experiment with the products on hand. Seems far fetched but there is some good
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Why don't all us crazed green folk buy some property. That way we can experiment with the products on hand. Seems far fetched but there is some good enthusiasm here. I am a builder of green homes so I will do my part.


                    Neil


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: J P Malone <JPMALONE@...>
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:38:16 PM
                    Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                    I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what
                    crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow
                    switch grass, bamboo, corn, algae, soybeans. Which will yield the highest
                    amount of fuel, BTU, whatever the proper unit of measure maybe for the
                    amount of land it takes to grow each crop. Like a retail store that measure
                    profit dollars per square foot of rent paid. It is basic commerce. If my
                    family owns 114,532 acres of land which currently grows switch grass is
                    there another crop that will give me more energy biofuel per acre than
                    switch grass (will it move a car further than what I am currently growing).

                    That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                    consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                    product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that’s your
                    label. To me it is a simple question.

                    Does such a database exist? Period.

                    I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                    database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.

                    Thanks.



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                    & Kim Travis
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:05 PM
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                    Greetings,
                    Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
                    What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
                    for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

                    How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
                    environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
                    do so.

                    Bright Blessings,
                    Kim

                    J P Malone wrote:
                    > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                    > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                    > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                    >
                    > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level
                    research,
                    > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
                    >
                    > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                    > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                    > learn more about how to be green.
                    >
                    > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping
                    the
                    > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't
                    have
                    > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                    > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed
                    opinion.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Garth
                    > & Kim Travis
                    > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                    > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                    >
                    > Greetings,
                    >
                    > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                    > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                    > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                    > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                    > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                    > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                    > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                    > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
                    >
                    > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                    > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                    > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                    > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                    > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
                    >
                    > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                    > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                    > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                    > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
                    >
                    > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                    > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                    > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                    > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                    > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                    > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                    > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
                    >
                    > Bright Blessings,
                    > Kim
                    >
                    > J P Malone wrote:
                    >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                    >>
                    >
                    > Original question:
                    > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                    > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than
                    land
                    > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                    > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be
                    most
                    > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste
                    and
                    > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
                    >
                    > Wikipedia
                    >
                    > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                    > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                    > 8:45 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    Yahoo! Groups Links




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                  • ajthomann@pol.net
                    -1. I guess the algal fuels wheel is being reinvented all over the place.  The Chronicle had an article on algae last October:
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      -1. I guess the algal fuels 'wheel' is being reinvented all over the place.  The Chronicle had an article on algae last October:

                      http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2007_4438360

                      -2. Wasn't the solar airplane designed, manufactured, and flown by Rutan, basically 'free' of NASA participation? 


                      Ariel
                      - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                      - All countries need NO REGRETS strategic policies regarding every non-renewable resource, including water.
                      - Plan ahead seven generations -- reduce all your consumption, and eliminate waste.
                      ----------------------------------------

                    • J P Malone
                      Thanks Ed. Also, below is a table from a Chronicle article that Ariel sent the link on. Gives a veggie oil yield per acre. Some very dramatic differences in
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks Ed. Also, below is a table from a Chronicle article that Ariel sent
                        the link on. Gives a veggie oil yield per acre. Some very dramatic
                        differences in yield. Not all the info needed to make a decision, but a
                        good start. Why would anyone grow corn, if all other factors being equal,
                        they could grow Algae? (I know, all factors are never equal, but there is a
                        wide margin of safety in these numbers).


                        FUELING GROWTH

                        Yield of vegetable oil in gallons per acre per year:

                        Algae: 100,000

                        Palm: 700

                        Rapeseed: 130

                        Sunflower: 110

                        Soybeans: 50

                        Corn: 29

                        Source: GlobalGreen Solutions; Valcent Products


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed
                        Sarlls
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:05 PM
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                        Try http://www.nrel.gov/ If the information is available they will have it.
                        Ed Sarlls


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "J P Malone" <JPMALONE@...>
                        To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:38 PM
                        Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel


                        I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what
                        crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow
                        switch grass, bamboo, corn, algae, soybeans. Which will yield the highest
                        amount of fuel, BTU, whatever the proper unit of measure maybe for the
                        amount of land it takes to grow each crop. Like a retail store that measure
                        profit dollars per square foot of rent paid. It is basic commerce. If my
                        family owns 114,532 acres of land which currently grows switch grass is
                        there another crop that will give me more energy biofuel per acre than
                        switch grass (will it move a car further than what I am currently growing).

                        That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                        consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                        product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that’s your
                        label. To me it is a simple question.

                        Does such a database exist? Period.

                        I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                        database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.

                        Thanks.



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                        & Kim Travis
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:05 PM
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                        Greetings,
                        Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
                        What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
                        for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

                        How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
                        environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
                        do so.

                        Bright Blessings,
                        Kim

                        J P Malone wrote:
                        > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                        > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                        > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                        >
                        > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level
                        research,
                        > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
                        >
                        > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                        > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                        > learn more about how to be green.
                        >
                        > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping
                        the
                        > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't
                        have
                        > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                        > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed
                        opinion.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        Garth
                        > & Kim Travis
                        > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                        > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                        >
                        > Greetings,
                        >
                        > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                        > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                        > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                        > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                        > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                        > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                        > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                        > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
                        >
                        > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                        > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                        > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                        > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                        > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
                        >
                        > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                        > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                        > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                        > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
                        >
                        > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                        > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                        > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                        > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                        > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                        > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                        > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
                        >
                        > Bright Blessings,
                        > Kim
                        >
                        > J P Malone wrote:
                        >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                        >>
                        >
                        > Original question:
                        > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                        > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than
                        land
                        > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                        > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be
                        most
                        > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste
                        and
                        > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
                        >
                        > Wikipedia
                        >
                        > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                        > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                        > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                        > 8:45 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        Yahoo! Groups Links




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                        8:45 PM


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                        8:45 PM





                        Yahoo! Groups Links






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                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                        8:45 PM


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                        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                        Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: 2/26/2008
                        7:50 PM
                      • Garth & Kim Travis
                        Greetings, No actually the data base you are asking for does exist. I had it on my computer about 8 years ago, but I have since removed all useless data. If
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Greetings,
                          No actually the data base you are asking for does exist. I had it on my
                          computer about 8 years ago, but I have since removed all useless data.

                          If you ask on a biofuels list, especially the one run off of
                          www.journeytoforever.org they can tell you where the current info can be
                          found.

                          The real problem with the information is that it is all from monocrop
                          situations. A practice we desperately need to end.

                          The answers will not be found until we pay attention to the questions,
                          for as Sarek said: "It is hard to answer when one does not understand
                          the question." It is all tied together, so only by looking for closed
                          systems and looking at all the ancillary consequences, can we come up
                          with any answers that are better than the mess we are in today.

                          Bright Blessings,
                          Kim

                          J P Malone wrote:
                          >
                          > That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                          > consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                          > product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that’s your
                          > label. To me it is a simple question.
                          >
                          > Does such a database exist? Period.
                          >
                          > I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                          > database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.
                          >
                          > Thanks.
                          >
                        • Garth & Kim Travis
                          Greetings, I did, 15 years ago. I am working to create systems that are sustainable, and provide a variety of products, fuel and food, while caring for Mother
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Greetings,
                            I did, 15 years ago. I am working to create systems that are
                            sustainable, and provide a variety of products, fuel and food, while
                            caring for Mother Earth and improving health. Work crews to help move
                            the work along are always welcome.
                            Bright Blessings,
                            Kim

                            Neil Smith wrote:
                            > Why don't all us crazed green folk buy some property. That way we can experiment with the products on hand. Seems far fetched but there is some good enthusiasm here. I am a builder of green homes so I will do my part.
                            >
                            >
                            > Neil
                            >
                            >
                          • J P Malone
                            Thanks. ... From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth & Kim Travis Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:33 AM To:
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thanks.

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                              & Kim Travis
                              Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:33 AM
                              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                              Greetings,
                              No actually the data base you are asking for does exist. I had it on my
                              computer about 8 years ago, but I have since removed all useless data.

                              If you ask on a biofuels list, especially the one run off of
                              www.journeytoforever.org they can tell you where the current info can be
                              found.

                              The real problem with the information is that it is all from monocrop
                              situations. A practice we desperately need to end.

                              The answers will not be found until we pay attention to the questions,
                              for as Sarek said: "It is hard to answer when one does not understand
                              the question." It is all tied together, so only by looking for closed
                              systems and looking at all the ancillary consequences, can we come up
                              with any answers that are better than the mess we are in today.

                              Bright Blessings,
                              Kim

                              J P Malone wrote:
                              >
                              > That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                              > consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                              > product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that’s your
                              > label. To me it is a simple question.
                              >
                              > Does such a database exist? Period.
                              >
                              > I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                              > database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.
                              >
                              > Thanks.
                              >



                              Yahoo! Groups Links




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                              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: 2/26/2008
                              7:50 PM


                              No virus found in this outgoing message.
                              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: 2/26/2008
                              7:50 PM
                            • Garth & Kim Travis
                              Greetings, In one word: Subsidies. One of the biggest problems is the government interference and support of many bad, bad ideas. If you have a strong
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Greetings,
                                In one word: Subsidies. One of the biggest problems is the government
                                interference and support of many bad, bad ideas. If you have a strong
                                stomache, read the early history of the FDA, then understand how big
                                money interests sell the rest of us out, in the name of protection.
                                Bright Blessings,
                                Kim

                                J P Malone wrote:
                                > Why would anyone grow corn, if all other factors being equal,
                                > they could grow Algae? (I know, all factors are never equal, but there is a
                                > wide margin of safety in these numbers).
                                >
                              • Gary Beck
                                Wow. Algae 100,000 gal/acre/year. Sounds a bit unbelievable but even if 1% of this level is true algae looks great, especially if you consider tax fueled
                                Message 15 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Wow. Algae 100,000 gal/acre/year. Sounds a bit unbelievable but even if 1% of this level is true algae looks great, especially if you consider tax fueled subsidies versus private investment.

                                  Government subsidies in Germany allowed my brother in law in Germany to begin buying rapeseed based biodiesel for his Audi wagon 15 years ago. I thought Rapeseed was a weed infestation when I first saw it being grown in Northern Germany. Government subsidies support US corn based Ethanol and I assume similar funds are available to support sunflowers and soybeans before a farmer invests his land. These government 'investments' of taxpayer money was probably very inefficient use of funds and self serving each area's political recipient, but they then (unexpectantly) pointed public interest in a green fuel direction.

                                  For market driven biofuels, I'm sure 'algae in the desert' started with research grants, but then private investment probably quickly took over when the $ returns were projected. On the other end of the private investment scale palm oil from tropical regions requires only land, growth time, and unskilled labor. I've been in Palm Oil plantation in Malaysia and they take huge swaths out of tropical forest areas. You would hope that some smart algae technology investor is already talking to the Malay palm oil producers about building an algae plant or two and while converting palm oil plantations into organic food crop production farms. Then replicate that business plan somewhere in arid north Africa. Talk about a green impact!

                                  To summarize... subsidies bad, grants good, and green technology transfer better*.

                                  Gary Beck, P.E., LEED AP

                                  Engineering and Green Consulting Services
                                  Eco-Holdings 4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd., Ste 114 Houston, TX 77025
                                  Tel: 713-377-4209 Fax: 832-201-5338 www.ecoegr.com
                                  Engineering Services: Inspection of Foundation and Framing Systems;
                                  Residential, Retail, Commercial, Lodging, Educational, & Governmental
                                  Design Documents (Blue Prints) Energy Consulting, Low Energy Design

                                  *and small smart government best!



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 6:28 AM
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                  Thanks Ed. Also, below is a table from a Chronicle article that Ariel sent
                                  the link on. Gives a veggie oil yield per acre. Some very dramatic
                                  differences in yield. Not all the info needed to make a decision, but a
                                  good start. Why would anyone grow corn, if all other factors being equal,
                                  they could grow Algae? (I know, all factors are never equal, but there is a
                                  wide margin of safety in these numbers).


                                  FUELING GROWTH

                                  Yield of vegetable oil in gallons per acre per year:

                                  Algae: 100,000

                                  Palm: 700

                                  Rapeseed: 130

                                  Sunflower: 110

                                  Soybeans: 50

                                  Corn: 29

                                  Source: GlobalGreen Solutions; Valcent Products


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed
                                  Sarlls
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:05 PM
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                  Try http://www.nrel.gov/ If the information is available they will have it.
                                  Ed Sarlls


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "J P Malone" <JPMALONE@...>
                                  To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:38 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel


                                  I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what
                                  crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow
                                  switch grass, bamboo, corn, algae, soybeans. Which will yield the highest
                                  amount of fuel, BTU, whatever the proper unit of measure maybe for the
                                  amount of land it takes to grow each crop. Like a retail store that measure
                                  profit dollars per square foot of rent paid. It is basic commerce. If my
                                  family owns 114,532 acres of land which currently grows switch grass is
                                  there another crop that will give me more energy biofuel per acre than
                                  switch grass (will it move a car further than what I am currently growing).

                                  That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                                  consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                                  product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that's your
                                  label. To me it is a simple question.

                                  Does such a database exist? Period.

                                  I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                                  database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.

                                  Thanks.



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                                  & Kim Travis
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:05 PM
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                  Greetings,
                                  Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
                                  What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
                                  for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

                                  How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
                                  environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
                                  do so.

                                  Bright Blessings,
                                  Kim

                                  J P Malone wrote:
                                  > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                                  > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                                  > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                  >
                                  > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level
                                  research,
                                  > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
                                  >
                                  > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                                  > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                                  > learn more about how to be green.
                                  >
                                  > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping
                                  the
                                  > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't
                                  have
                                  > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                                  > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed
                                  opinion.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                  Garth
                                  > & Kim Travis
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                                  >
                                  > Greetings,
                                  >
                                  > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                                  > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                                  > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                                  > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                                  > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                                  > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                                  > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                                  > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
                                  >
                                  > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                                  > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                                  > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                                  > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                                  > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
                                  >
                                  > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                                  > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                                  > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                                  > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
                                  >
                                  > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                                  > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                                  > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                                  > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                                  > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                                  > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                                  > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
                                  >
                                  > Bright Blessings,
                                  > Kim
                                  >
                                  > J P Malone wrote:
                                  >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > Original question:
                                  > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                                  > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than
                                  land
                                  > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                                  > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be
                                  most
                                  > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste
                                  and
                                  > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
                                  >
                                  > Wikipedia
                                  >
                                  > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                                  > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                  > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                                  > 8:45 PM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  Yahoo! Groups Links




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                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • J P Malone
                                  Or replicate it, as you say, in the Mojave, Sonora, and Chihuahua deserts of North America. Estimates came out yesterday that the full cost of the Iraq war may
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                    Or replicate it, as you say, in the Mojave, Sonora, and Chihuahua deserts of North America.

                                    Estimates came out yesterday that the full cost of the Iraq war may be closer to $3.5 billion.  With that kind of $$ investment solar take a giant step forward.

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                    From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Beck
                                    Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:33 AM
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                     

                                    Wow. Algae 100,000 gal/acre/year. Sounds a bit unbelievable but even if 1% of this level is true algae looks great, especially if you consider tax fueled subsidies versus private investment.

                                    Government subsidies in Germany allowed my brother in law in Germany to begin buying rapeseed based biodiesel for his Audi wagon 15 years ago. I thought Rapeseed was a weed infestation when I first saw it being grown in Northern Germany. Government subsidies support US corn based Ethanol and I assume similar funds are available to support sunflowers and soybeans before a farmer invests his land. These government 'investments' of taxpayer money was probably very inefficient use of funds and self serving each area's political recipient, but they then (unexpectantly) pointed public interest in a green fuel direction.

                                    For market driven biofuels, I'm sure 'algae in the desert' started with research grants, but then private investment probably quickly took over when the $ returns were projected. On the other end of the private investment scale palm oil from tropical regions requires only land, growth time, and unskilled labor. I've been in Palm Oil plantation in Malaysia and they take huge swaths out of tropical forest areas. You would hope that some smart algae technology investor is already talking to the Malay palm oil producers about building an algae plant or two and while converting palm oil plantations into organic food crop production farms. Then replicate that business plan somewhere in arid north Africa. Talk about a green impact!

                                    To summarize... subsidies bad, grants good, and green technology transfer better*.

                                    Gary Beck, P.E., LEED AP

                                    Engineering and Green Consulting Services
                                    Eco-Holdings 4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd., Ste 114 Houston, TX 77025
                                    Tel: 713-377-4209 Fax: 832-201-5338 www.ecoegr.com
                                    Engineering Services: Inspection of Foundation and Framing Systems;
                                    Residential, Retail, Commercial, Lodging, Educational, & Governmental
                                    Design Documents (Blue Prints) Energy Consulting, Low Energy Design

                                    *and small smart government best!

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
                                    Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 6:28 AM
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                    Thanks Ed. Also, below is a table from a Chronicle article that Ariel sent
                                    the link on. Gives a veggie oil yield per acre. Some very dramatic
                                    differences in yield. Not all the info needed to make a decision, but a
                                    good start. Why would anyone grow corn, if all other factors being equal,
                                    they could grow Algae? (I know, all factors are never equal, but there is a
                                    wide margin of safety in these numbers).

                                    FUELING GROWTH

                                    Yield of vegetable oil in gallons per acre per year:

                                    Algae: 100,000

                                    Palm: 700

                                    Rapeseed: 130

                                    Sunflower: 110

                                    Soybeans: 50

                                    Corn: 29

                                    Source: GlobalGreen Solutions; Valcent Products

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed
                                    Sarlls
                                    Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:05 PM
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                    Try http://www.nrel.gov/ If the information is available they will have it.
                                    Ed Sarlls

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "J P Malone" <JPMALONE@...>
                                    To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:38 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                    I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what
                                    crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow
                                    switch grass, bamboo, corn, algae, soybeans. Which will yield the highest
                                    amount of fuel, BTU, whatever the proper unit of measure maybe for the
                                    amount of land it takes to grow each crop. Like a retail store that measure
                                    profit dollars per square foot of rent paid. It is basic commerce. If my
                                    family owns 114,532 acres of land which currently grows switch grass is
                                    there another crop that will give me more energy biofuel per acre than
                                    switch grass (will it move a car further than what I am currently growing).

                                    That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                                    consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                                    product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that's your
                                    label. To me it is a simple question.

                                    Does such a database exist? Period.

                                    I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                                    database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.

                                    Thanks.

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                                    & Kim Travis
                                    Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:05 PM
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                    Greetings,
                                    Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
                                    What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
                                    for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

                                    How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
                                    environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
                                    do so.

                                    Bright Blessings,
                                    Kim

                                    J P Malone wrote:
                                    > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                                    > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                                    > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                    >
                                    > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level
                                    research,
                                    > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
                                    >
                                    > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                                    > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                                    > learn more about how to be green.
                                    >
                                    > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping
                                    the
                                    > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't
                                    have
                                    > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                                    > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed
                                    opinion.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                    Garth
                                    > & Kim Travis
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                                    > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                                    >
                                    > Greetings,
                                    >
                                    > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                                    > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                                    > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                                    > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                                    > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                                    > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                                    > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                                    > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
                                    >
                                    > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                                    > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                                    > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                                    > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                                    > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
                                    >
                                    > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                                    > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                                    > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                                    > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
                                    >
                                    > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                                    > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                                    > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                                    > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                                    > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                                    > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                                    > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
                                    >
                                    > Bright Blessings,
                                    > Kim
                                    >
                                    > J P Malone wrote:
                                    >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    > Original question:
                                    > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                                    > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than
                                    land
                                    > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                                    > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be
                                    most
                                    > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste
                                    and
                                    > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
                                    >
                                    > Wikipedia
                                    >
                                    > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                                    > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                    > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                                    > 8:45 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    Yahoo! Groups Links

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                                    Yahoo! Groups Links

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                                  • PatGBrown@aol.com
                                    $3.5 TRILLION **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
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                                      $3.5 TRILLION




                                      Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living.
                                    • Robert Foster
                                      See ppt table attached. Algae is by far the highest density biofuel resource, but still not ready for prime time. See more at
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        See ppt table attached. Algae is by far the highest density biofuel resource, but still not ready for prime time. See more at


                                        Also check out the Oct. 2007 National Geographic excellent biofuels article.

                                        Regards,

                                        Robert Foster

                                      • Neil Smith
                                        What kind if work needs to be done? Have any pics or info on systems that work? I am in the process of building a raised bed garden and could always use tips
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          What kind if work needs to be done?  Have any pics or info on systems that work?  I am in the process of building a raised bed garden and could always use tips from those who have the experience of what works best.

                                          Thanks so much
                                          Neil

                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@...>
                                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:35:25 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                          Greetings,
                                          I did, 15 years ago. I am working to create systems that are
                                          sustainable, and provide a variety of products, fuel and food, while
                                          caring for Mother Earth and improving health. Work crews to help move
                                          the work along are always welcome.
                                          Bright Blessings,
                                          Kim

                                          Neil Smith wrote:

                                          > Why don't all us crazed green folk buy some property. That way we can experiment with the products on hand. Seems far fetched but there is some good enthusiasm here. I am a builder of green homes so I will do my part.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Neil
                                          >
                                          >




                                          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                                        • Garth & Kim Travis
                                          Greetings, The phone system out here has been very bad for the last few months, so no pictures available. I have been known to log on at 4.5, takes me back
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Feb 28, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Greetings,
                                            The phone system out here has been very bad for the last few months, so
                                            no pictures available. I have been known to log on at 4.5, takes me
                                            back too many years. One of these days I will get my web site done, but
                                            no time.

                                            As always, we have a variety of projects on the go. Depends on the
                                            weather, time of year, etc. Fences are my one wish for a fairy god mother.

                                            We are building water catchments and installing a small off grid system
                                            in the rabbitry at the moment, whenever the gardening chores are caught
                                            up. Contact us off list if you would like to come for a working visit.

                                            Bright Blessings,
                                            Kim & Garth

                                            Neil Smith wrote:
                                            > What kind if work needs to be done? Have any pics or info on systems
                                            > that work? I am in the process of building a raised bed garden and
                                            > could always use tips from those who have the experience of what works best.
                                            >
                                            > Thanks so much
                                            > Neil
                                            >
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