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Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

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  • Ed Sarlls
    The first flight by a commercial airline to be powered partly by biofuel has taken place. A Virgin Atlantic jumbo jet has flown between London s Heathrow and
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 24, 2008
      The first flight by a commercial airline to be powered partly by biofuel has taken place.

      A Virgin Atlantic jumbo jet has flown between London's Heathrow and Amsterdam using fuel derived from a mixture of Brazilian babassu nuts and coconuts.

      Environmentalists have branded the flight a publicity stunt and claim biofuel cultivation is not sustainable. 

      (I guess that some will never be satisfied.) Ed

      For more info see link:
       
    • Gary Beck
      I don t know why, but the idea of using food crops and higher plant forms like trees or nuts for fuel just strikes me as wrong. Seems like a waste of the power
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 25, 2008

        I don't know why, but the idea of using food crops and higher plant forms like trees or nuts for fuel just strikes me as wrong. Seems like a waste of the power of nature.  I like the idea of using the speed of fast growth nature like microbes, bacteria, and algae slurries that can be grown in non forest and non food production areas.

         

        PS: Sound like greewashing to me. They could have used a slingshot to get from London to Amsterdam! And I still  bet that planes fuel mixture was more than 90% petroleum based and in one tank only!  

         

        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed Sarlls
        Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 5:41 PM
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

         

        The first flight by a commercial airline to be powered partly by biofuel has taken place.

        A Virgin Atlantic jumbo jet has flown between London's Heathrow and Amsterdam using fuel derived from a mixture of Brazilian babassu nuts and coconuts.

        Environmentalists have branded the flight a publicity stunt and claim biofuel cultivation is not sustainable. 

        (I guess that some will never be satisfied.) Ed

        For more info see link:

         

      • Kevin Conlin
        I heartily agree, burning food is not the answer to energy problems. Climate change is already shifting the patterns of agriculture, and not favorably. By
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 25, 2008

          I heartily agree, burning food is not the answer to energy problems.  Climate change is already shifting the patterns of agriculture, and not favorably. By burning food we are only exacerbating the problem, and we’re losing topsoil and groundwater to boot.  Who thought this was a good idea?

           

           

          ________________________

          Kevin Conlin

          Solarcraft, Inc.

          4007 C Greenbriar

          Stafford, TX 77477-4536

          Local (281) 340-1224

          Toll Free (877) 340-1224

          Fax 281 340 1230

          Cell 281 960 8979

          kconlin@...

          www.solarcraft.net

           

          Please make a note of our new contact information above.

           


          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Beck
          Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 8:35 AM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

           

          I don't know why, but the idea of using food crops and higher plant forms like trees or nuts for fuel just strikes me as wrong. Seems like a waste of the power of nature.  I like the idea of using the speed of fast growth nature like microbes, bacteria, and algae slurries that can be grown in non forest and non food production areas.

           

          PS: Sound like greewashing to me. They could have used a slingshot to get from London to Amsterdam! And I still  bet that planes fuel mixture was more than 90% petroleum based and in one tank only!  

           

          From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Ed Sarlls
          Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 5:41 PM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
          Subject: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

           

          The first flight by a commercial airline to be powered partly by biofuel has taken place.

          A Virgin Atlantic jumbo jet has flown between London's Heathrow and Amsterdam using fuel derived from a mixture of Brazilian babassu nuts and coconuts.

          Environmentalists have branded the flight a publicity stunt and claim biofuel cultivation is not sustainable. 

          (I guess that some will never be satisfied.) Ed

          For more info see link:

           

        • Garth & Kim Travis
          Greetings, But, they can make biodeisel out of bamboo. I don t have the details, but I found it in the excellent book: Bamboo: The Gift of the Gods by Oscar
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 25, 2008
            Greetings,
            But, they can make biodeisel out of bamboo. I don't have the details,
            but I found it in the excellent book: Bamboo: The Gift of the Gods by
            Oscar Hidalgo-Lopez.

            Bamboo can help protect our top soil when planted around the perimeter
            of the field, can prevent erosion in very wet areas. It provides
            excellent fodder for ruminants, can be harvested every year. Makes
            better paper than wood, and the list goes on and on.

            I agree that growing corn, most of it, is dumb. It is not a good return
            on the dollar for environmental issues. It is a heavy feeder with a low
            protien return. And definitely not the plant of choice for biofuels, by
            anyone but the government.

            There are many plants that can provide what we need, grow fast and don't
            harm the environment, that can be exploited. Not food plants, although
            bamboo is that too.

            We need integrated systems, such as a methane digester off the rabbitry,
            which produce fuel and the effluent is used to fertilize the fields that
            feed humans and the rabbits. I am personally working on this one.

            Bio fuels will need to be part of our solution, but as has been pointed
            out, they must be produced wisely.

            I don't know the plant that was named, was it a food plant? I don't
            think it was.

            Bright Blessings,
            Kim

            Kevin Conlin wrote:
            > I heartily agree, burning food is not the answer to energy problems.
            > Climate change is already shifting the patterns of agriculture, and not
            > favorably. By burning food we are only exacerbating the problem, and
            > we’re losing topsoil and groundwater to boot. Who thought this was a
            > good idea?
            >
            >
          • J P Malone
            Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than land crops such
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 25, 2008
              "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
              reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than land
              crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
              gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be most
              effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste and
              excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."

              Wikipedia

              Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
              acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?



              -----Original Message-----
              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
              & Kim Travis
              Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 5:05 PM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

              Greetings,
              But, they can make biodeisel out of bamboo. I don't have the details,
              but I found it in the excellent book: Bamboo: The Gift of the Gods by
              Oscar Hidalgo-Lopez.

              Bamboo can help protect our top soil when planted around the perimeter
              of the field, can prevent erosion in very wet areas. It provides
              excellent fodder for ruminants, can be harvested every year. Makes
              better paper than wood, and the list goes on and on.

              I agree that growing corn, most of it, is dumb. It is not a good return
              on the dollar for environmental issues. It is a heavy feeder with a low
              protien return. And definitely not the plant of choice for biofuels, by
              anyone but the government.

              There are many plants that can provide what we need, grow fast and don't
              harm the environment, that can be exploited. Not food plants, although
              bamboo is that too.

              We need integrated systems, such as a methane digester off the rabbitry,
              which produce fuel and the effluent is used to fertilize the fields that
              feed humans and the rabbits. I am personally working on this one.

              Bio fuels will need to be part of our solution, but as has been pointed
              out, they must be produced wisely.

              I don't know the plant that was named, was it a food plant? I don't
              think it was.

              Bright Blessings,
              Kim

              Kevin Conlin wrote:
              > I heartily agree, burning food is not the answer to energy problems.
              > Climate change is already shifting the patterns of agriculture, and not
              > favorably. By burning food we are only exacerbating the problem, and
              > we’re losing topsoil and groundwater to boot. Who thought this was a
              > good idea?
              >
              >



              Yahoo! Groups Links




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            • Robert Johnston
              Well, then consider this. I read in a newsletter this weekend that because people are getting upset at globalization and free trade, nations are becoming more
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 25, 2008
                Well, then consider this. I read in a newsletter this weekend that because
                people are getting upset at globalization and free trade, nations are
                becoming more self-sufficient, but at great expense. Witness: U.S. growing
                corn etc. for biofuel so that it can be less dependent on petroleum imports
                from the Middle East. Saudi Arabia installing water desalinization plants
                so that it can grow wheat in the desert and import less from US. Where's
                the sense in that? Seems to me that trading would be the better way to go.

                Robert Johnston
              • Ed Sarlls
                Here is a link to some more information. I contains much of what we have heard.
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 25, 2008
                  Here is a link to some more information. I contains much of what we have
                  heard.

                  http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL2451986620080224?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

                  There are a lot of food crops that spoil in the field or go to landfill or
                  compost. That is the candidate for biofuel. I doubt that it will be a very
                  high percentage of the total fuel market.

                  Ed
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "J P Malone" <JPMALONE@...>
                  To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 6:24 PM
                  Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel


                  "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                  reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than land
                  crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                  gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be most
                  effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste and
                  excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."

                  Wikipedia

                  Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                  acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                  & Kim Travis
                  Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 5:05 PM
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                  Greetings,
                  But, they can make biodeisel out of bamboo. I don't have the details,
                  but I found it in the excellent book: Bamboo: The Gift of the Gods by
                  Oscar Hidalgo-Lopez.

                  Bamboo can help protect our top soil when planted around the perimeter
                  of the field, can prevent erosion in very wet areas. It provides
                  excellent fodder for ruminants, can be harvested every year. Makes
                  better paper than wood, and the list goes on and on.

                  I agree that growing corn, most of it, is dumb. It is not a good return
                  on the dollar for environmental issues. It is a heavy feeder with a low
                  protien return. And definitely not the plant of choice for biofuels, by
                  anyone but the government.

                  There are many plants that can provide what we need, grow fast and don't
                  harm the environment, that can be exploited. Not food plants, although
                  bamboo is that too.

                  We need integrated systems, such as a methane digester off the rabbitry,
                  which produce fuel and the effluent is used to fertilize the fields that
                  feed humans and the rabbits. I am personally working on this one.

                  Bio fuels will need to be part of our solution, but as has been pointed
                  out, they must be produced wisely.

                  I don't know the plant that was named, was it a food plant? I don't
                  think it was.

                  Bright Blessings,
                  Kim

                  Kevin Conlin wrote:
                  > I heartily agree, burning food is not the answer to energy problems.
                  > Climate change is already shifting the patterns of agriculture, and not
                  > favorably. By burning food we are only exacerbating the problem, and
                  > we’re losing topsoil and groundwater to boot. Who thought this was a
                  > good idea?
                  >
                  >



                  Yahoo! Groups Links




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                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.0/1296 - Release Date: 2/24/2008
                  12:19 PM


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                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Bashir Syed
                  If NASA can fly one of its Solar Powered Plane around the globe entirely on Solar PV, why can t the aircraft designers design a Hybrid system which can fly on
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 25, 2008
                    If NASA can fly one of its Solar Powered Plane around the globe entirely on Solar PV, why can't the aircraft designers design a Hybrid system which can fly on Solar PV energy when the plane is in the air by cutting down the regular fuel and combining the electric propulsion at higher altitudes.
                    Working on MARS project, one of the Astronaut, Dr. Franklin Chang-Diaz (Ph.D. MIT) invented a Pulsed Plasma (Ionic) Engine to propel MARS Space Craft using this Pulsed Plasma Engine/Rocket. Similasr hybrid approach could be adopted for Aircraft flying at high altitude saving not only expensive Hydrocarbon fossil fuel, but also minimizing the pollution by those CONTRAILS that certainly contribute to the already alarming amount of Carbon in the atmosphere contributing to the Earth Warming, which is a physical reality and not fiction any more. Modern Technology based upon recent advances in Materials as well as other branches of Physics can be applied to build a better mouse trap than using Bio-Fuels, to fool the public.
                     
                    Bashir A. Syed
                    Retired Aerospace Physicist 
                    Member: APS, IEEE, ASES, UCS, and New York Academy of Sciences
                    Senior Member, International Solar Energy Society.
                    Vice-Pres., Alt-EnergyTech, Inc. Houston.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 11:45 AM
                    Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                    I heartily agree, burning food is not the answer to energy problems.  Climate change is already shifting the patterns of agriculture, and not favorably. By burning food we are only exacerbating the problem, and we’re losing topsoil and groundwater to boot.  Who thought this was a good idea?

                    ____________ _________ ___

                    Kevin Conlin

                    Solarcraft, Inc.

                    4007 C Greenbriar

                    Stafford, TX 77477-4536

                    Local (281) 340-1224

                    Toll Free (877) 340-1224

                    Fax 281 340 1230

                    Cell 281 960 8979

                    kconlin@solarcraft. net

                    www.solarcraft. net

                    Please make a note of our new contact information above.


                    From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Gary Beck
                    Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 8:35 AM
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                    I don't know why, but the idea of using food crops and higher plant forms like trees or nuts for fuel just strikes me as wrong. Seems like a waste of the power of nature.  I like the idea of using the speed of fast growth nature like microbes, bacteria, and algae slurries that can be grown in non forest and non food production areas.

                    PS: Sound like greewashing to me. They could have used a slingshot to get from London to Amsterdam! And I still  bet that planes fuel mixture was more than 90% petroleum based and in one tank only!  

                    From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Ed Sarlls
                    Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 5:41 PM
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                    The first flight by a commercial airline to be powered partly by biofuel has taken place.

                    A Virgin Atlantic jumbo jet has flown between London's Heathrow and Amsterdam using fuel derived from a mixture of Brazilian babassu nuts and coconuts.

                    Environmentalists have branded the flight a publicity stunt and claim biofuel cultivation is not sustainable. 

                    (I guess that some will never be satisfied.) Ed

                    For more info see link:

                  • Garth & Kim Travis
                    Greetings, Which fuel? They are not one size fits all, even if we are talking about a single crop, it will depend on how the land has been treated. Many
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
                      Greetings,
                      Which fuel? They are not one size fits all, even if we are talking
                      about a single crop, it will depend on how the land has been treated.
                      Many biofuels are made from waste material that has become a hazard,
                      many wastes are wasted because people are too squeamish to use them
                      properly such as methane production from solid waste plants.

                      This question is part of the problem. The use of virgin anything grown
                      strictly for biofuel will always be inherently wrong. It is the use of
                      byproducts and waste for fuel that will be the saving grace.

                      For example, Bamboo can be grown to do many jobs at the same time. A
                      single harvesting of bamboo can provide pulp for paper and a very high
                      quality livestock feed at the same time. Which of course helps to
                      provide manure which gives fuel and fertilizer for the bamboo. This is
                      appropriate for our climate, other climates have other cycles.

                      Thinking in isolation will not solve our problems, we need to look for
                      circles that can be closed.

                      Bright Blessings,
                      Kim

                      J P Malone wrote:

                      > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                      > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                      >
                      >
                    • J P Malone
                      Not sure how a question can be part of the problem. I agree with your comments on multiple fuels and methods and that one size does not fit all. However, it
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
                        Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.

                        I agree with your comments on multiple fuels and methods and that one size
                        does not fit all.
                        However, it does seem to be appropriate to ask, in each local, what
                        resources give the biggest bang for the buck.
                        Why use soybeans & corn if algae (as an example only) can use less acreage
                        and provide a greatly more efficient source of green fuel.
                        Transporting/transmitting the energy produced is another big piece of the
                        puzzle.

                        In Iceland, they have huge geo-thermal resources which they are exploiting.
                        America has a diverse range of climates and resources. So it still seems
                        productive to ask which are most efficient. If a local climate will only
                        allow the use of resources that start at number 44 in a ranking then that is
                        where they should at least start considering which resources to use.

                        Designing consumer & industrial products so that there is no waste (Wm.
                        McDonough, Cradle to Cradle) is a good way to stop feeding the beast while
                        working on a Green Manhattan Project. The original Manhattan Project took
                        less than 4 years and $20 billion (in 2007 $) from conception to Hiroshima.
                        That is only about 2 months of the Iraq War cost. So a Green Manhattan
                        Project is feasible if we can get our new leaders to commit to it.



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                        & Kim Travis
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:51 AM
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                        Greetings,
                        Which fuel? They are not one size fits all, even if we are talking
                        about a single crop, it will depend on how the land has been treated.
                        Many biofuels are made from waste material that has become a hazard,
                        many wastes are wasted because people are too squeamish to use them
                        properly such as methane production from solid waste plants.

                        This question is part of the problem. The use of virgin anything grown
                        strictly for biofuel will always be inherently wrong. It is the use of
                        byproducts and waste for fuel that will be the saving grace.

                        For example, Bamboo can be grown to do many jobs at the same time. A
                        single harvesting of bamboo can provide pulp for paper and a very high
                        quality livestock feed at the same time. Which of course helps to
                        provide manure which gives fuel and fertilizer for the bamboo. This is
                        appropriate for our climate, other climates have other cycles.

                        Thinking in isolation will not solve our problems, we need to look for
                        circles that can be closed.

                        Bright Blessings,
                        Kim

                        J P Malone wrote:

                        > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                        > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                        >
                        >



                        Yahoo! Groups Links




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                        8:45 PM


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                      • Garth & Kim Travis
                        Greetings, Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are food,
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
                          Greetings,

                          Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                          real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                          food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                          products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                          question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                          what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                          refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                          a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.

                          Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                          questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                          eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                          why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                          are poorly phrased, the research is useless.

                          The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                          the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                          solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                          we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.

                          A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                          portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                          our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                          to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                          grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                          this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                          to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?

                          Bright Blessings,
                          Kim

                          J P Malone wrote:
                          > Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                          >
                        • J P Malone
                          I never mentioned virgin product usage , that was your statement. The original question was Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
                            I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                            The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                            energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?

                            My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level research,
                            merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.

                            One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                            Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                            learn more about how to be green.

                            Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping the
                            continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't have
                            time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                            start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed opinion.




                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                            & Kim Travis
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                            Greetings,

                            Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                            real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                            food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                            products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                            question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                            what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                            refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                            a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.

                            Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                            questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                            eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                            why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                            are poorly phrased, the research is useless.

                            The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                            the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                            solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                            we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.

                            A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                            portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                            our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                            to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                            grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                            this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                            to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?

                            Bright Blessings,
                            Kim

                            J P Malone wrote:
                            > Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                            >

                            Original question:
                            "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                            reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than land
                            crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                            gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be most
                            effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste and
                            excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."

                            Wikipedia

                            Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                            acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?



                            No virus found in this outgoing message.
                            Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                            8:45 PM
                          • Kevin Conlin
                            I agree, in a world of dwindling resources a cooperative approach will be more sustainable than a competitive one. ________________________ Kevin Conlin
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008

                              I agree, in a world of dwindling resources a cooperative approach will be more sustainable than a competitive one.

                               

                               

                              ________________________

                              Kevin Conlin

                              Solarcraft, Inc.

                              4007 C Greenbriar

                              Stafford, TX 77477-4536

                              Local (281) 340-1224

                              Toll Free (877) 340-1224

                              Fax 281 340 1230

                              Cell 281 960 8979

                              kconlin@...

                              www.solarcraft.net

                               

                              Please make a note of our new contact information above.

                               


                              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
                              Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 7:56 PM
                              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                               

                              Well, then consider this. I read in a newsletter this weekend that because
                              people are getting upset at globalization and free trade, nations are
                              becoming more self-sufficient, but at great expense. Witness: U.S. growing
                              corn etc. for biofuel so that it can be less dependent on petroleum imports
                              from the Middle East. Saudi Arabia installing water desalinization plants
                              so that it can grow wheat in the desert and import less from US. Where's
                              the sense in that? Seems to me that trading would be the better way to go.

                              Robert Johnston

                            • evelyn sardina
                              I am currently reading ENERGY AUTONOMY by Hermann Scheer. He talks about how Germany is doing it and how everyone else can too. He is very thourough and
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
                                I am currently reading ENERGY AUTONOMY by Hermann Scheer. He talks about how Germany is doing it and how everyone else can too. He is very thourough and explains what Willie Nelson said this weekend when Amy Goodman interviewed him..... " Biodisel and other forms of bio mass works well only when used locally. If you have to transport it, it looses it's effectiveness" It should be used in conjuction with other forms of energy that interrelate and compliment each other. It is supposed to use something that otherwise would have been discarded and it should be done in a sustainable way."  Cna you say permaculture? Hermann Scheer ( as I interpret ) says that the main way is going to be descentralizing energy so that each area uses the form of energy that is most complimentary to him. I got the book from the University of Texas in San Antonio as an interlibrary loan. It took me about 3 months to get it 'cause you have to fight the college kids to get it. Might be better off getting at a book store. The book is full of information and detail as to how the whole thing can be done. Gotta read the book!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Evelyn

                                Kevin Conlin <kconlin@...> wrote:
                                I agree, in a world of dwindling resources a cooperative approach will be more sustainable than a competitive one.
                                ____________ _________ ___
                                Kevin Conlin
                                Solarcraft, Inc.
                                4007 C Greenbriar
                                Stafford, TX 77477-4536
                                Local (281) 340-1224
                                Toll Free (877) 340-1224
                                Fax 281 340 1230
                                Cell 281 960 8979
                                Please make a note of our new contact information above.

                                From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
                                Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 7:56 PM
                                To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                                Well, then consider this. I read in a newsletter this weekend that because
                                people are getting upset at globalization and free trade, nations are
                                becoming more self-sufficient, but at great expense. Witness: U.S. growing
                                corn etc. for biofuel so that it can be less dependent on petroleum imports
                                from the Middle East. Saudi Arabia installing water desalinization plants
                                so that it can grow wheat in the desert and import less from US. Where's
                                the sense in that? Seems to me that trading would be the better way to go.

                                Robert Johnston


                                Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

                              • Garth & Kim Travis
                                Greetings, Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre? What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop for
                                Message 15 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
                                  Greetings,
                                  Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
                                  What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
                                  for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

                                  How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
                                  environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
                                  do so.

                                  Bright Blessings,
                                  Kim

                                  J P Malone wrote:
                                  > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                                  > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                                  > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                  >
                                  > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level research,
                                  > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
                                  >
                                  > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                                  > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                                  > learn more about how to be green.
                                  >
                                  > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping the
                                  > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't have
                                  > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                                  > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed opinion.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                                  > & Kim Travis
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                                  >
                                  > Greetings,
                                  >
                                  > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                                  > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                                  > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                                  > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                                  > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                                  > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                                  > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                                  > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
                                  >
                                  > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                                  > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                                  > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                                  > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                                  > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
                                  >
                                  > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                                  > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                                  > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                                  > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
                                  >
                                  > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                                  > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                                  > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                                  > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                                  > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                                  > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                                  > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
                                  >
                                  > Bright Blessings,
                                  > Kim
                                  >
                                  > J P Malone wrote:
                                  >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > Original question:
                                  > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                                  > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than land
                                  > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                                  > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be most
                                  > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste and
                                  > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
                                  >
                                  > Wikipedia
                                  >
                                  > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                                  > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                  > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                  > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                                  > 8:45 PM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • J P Malone
                                  I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow switch grass,
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
                                    I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what
                                    crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow
                                    switch grass, bamboo, corn, algae, soybeans. Which will yield the highest
                                    amount of fuel, BTU, whatever the proper unit of measure maybe for the
                                    amount of land it takes to grow each crop. Like a retail store that measure
                                    profit dollars per square foot of rent paid. It is basic commerce. If my
                                    family owns 114,532 acres of land which currently grows switch grass is
                                    there another crop that will give me more energy biofuel per acre than
                                    switch grass (will it move a car further than what I am currently growing).

                                    That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                                    consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                                    product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that’s your
                                    label. To me it is a simple question.

                                    Does such a database exist? Period.

                                    I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                                    database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.

                                    Thanks.



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                                    & Kim Travis
                                    Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:05 PM
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                    Greetings,
                                    Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
                                    What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
                                    for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

                                    How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
                                    environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
                                    do so.

                                    Bright Blessings,
                                    Kim

                                    J P Malone wrote:
                                    > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                                    > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                                    > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                    >
                                    > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level
                                    research,
                                    > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
                                    >
                                    > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                                    > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                                    > learn more about how to be green.
                                    >
                                    > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping
                                    the
                                    > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't
                                    have
                                    > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                                    > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed
                                    opinion.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                    Garth
                                    > & Kim Travis
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                                    > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                                    >
                                    > Greetings,
                                    >
                                    > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                                    > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                                    > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                                    > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                                    > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                                    > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                                    > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                                    > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
                                    >
                                    > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                                    > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                                    > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                                    > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                                    > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
                                    >
                                    > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                                    > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                                    > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                                    > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
                                    >
                                    > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                                    > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                                    > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                                    > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                                    > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                                    > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                                    > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
                                    >
                                    > Bright Blessings,
                                    > Kim
                                    >
                                    > J P Malone wrote:
                                    >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    > Original question:
                                    > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                                    > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than
                                    land
                                    > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                                    > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be
                                    most
                                    > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste
                                    and
                                    > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
                                    >
                                    > Wikipedia
                                    >
                                    > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                                    > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                    > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                                    > 8:45 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >



                                    Yahoo! Groups Links




                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                    Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                                    8:45 PM


                                    No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                    Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                                    8:45 PM
                                  • Ed Sarlls
                                    Try http://www.nrel.gov/ If the information is available they will have it. Ed Sarlls ... From: J P Malone To:
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
                                      Try http://www.nrel.gov/ If the information is available they will have it.
                                      Ed Sarlls


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "J P Malone" <JPMALONE@...>
                                      To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:38 PM
                                      Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel


                                      I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what
                                      crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow
                                      switch grass, bamboo, corn, algae, soybeans. Which will yield the highest
                                      amount of fuel, BTU, whatever the proper unit of measure maybe for the
                                      amount of land it takes to grow each crop. Like a retail store that measure
                                      profit dollars per square foot of rent paid. It is basic commerce. If my
                                      family owns 114,532 acres of land which currently grows switch grass is
                                      there another crop that will give me more energy biofuel per acre than
                                      switch grass (will it move a car further than what I am currently growing).

                                      That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                                      consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                                      product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that’s your
                                      label. To me it is a simple question.

                                      Does such a database exist? Period.

                                      I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                                      database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.

                                      Thanks.



                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                                      & Kim Travis
                                      Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:05 PM
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                      Greetings,
                                      Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
                                      What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
                                      for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

                                      How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
                                      environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
                                      do so.

                                      Bright Blessings,
                                      Kim

                                      J P Malone wrote:
                                      > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                                      > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                                      > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                      >
                                      > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level
                                      research,
                                      > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
                                      >
                                      > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                                      > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                                      > learn more about how to be green.
                                      >
                                      > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping
                                      the
                                      > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't
                                      have
                                      > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                                      > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed
                                      opinion.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                      Garth
                                      > & Kim Travis
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                                      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                                      >
                                      > Greetings,
                                      >
                                      > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                                      > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                                      > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                                      > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                                      > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                                      > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                                      > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                                      > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
                                      >
                                      > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                                      > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                                      > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                                      > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                                      > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
                                      >
                                      > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                                      > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                                      > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                                      > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
                                      >
                                      > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                                      > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                                      > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                                      > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                                      > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                                      > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                                      > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
                                      >
                                      > Bright Blessings,
                                      > Kim
                                      >
                                      > J P Malone wrote:
                                      >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > Original question:
                                      > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                                      > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than
                                      land
                                      > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                                      > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be
                                      most
                                      > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste
                                      and
                                      > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
                                      >
                                      > Wikipedia
                                      >
                                      > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                                      > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                      > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                                      > 8:45 PM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >



                                      Yahoo! Groups Links




                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                      Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                      Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                                      8:45 PM


                                      No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                      Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                      Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                                      8:45 PM





                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • Neil Smith
                                      Why don t all us crazed green folk buy some property. That way we can experiment with the products on hand. Seems far fetched but there is some good
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
                                        Why don't all us crazed green folk buy some property. That way we can experiment with the products on hand. Seems far fetched but there is some good enthusiasm here. I am a builder of green homes so I will do my part.


                                        Neil


                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                        From: J P Malone <JPMALONE@...>
                                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:38:16 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                        I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what
                                        crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow
                                        switch grass, bamboo, corn, algae, soybeans. Which will yield the highest
                                        amount of fuel, BTU, whatever the proper unit of measure maybe for the
                                        amount of land it takes to grow each crop. Like a retail store that measure
                                        profit dollars per square foot of rent paid. It is basic commerce. If my
                                        family owns 114,532 acres of land which currently grows switch grass is
                                        there another crop that will give me more energy biofuel per acre than
                                        switch grass (will it move a car further than what I am currently growing).

                                        That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                                        consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                                        product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that’s your
                                        label. To me it is a simple question.

                                        Does such a database exist? Period.

                                        I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                                        database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.

                                        Thanks.



                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                                        & Kim Travis
                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:05 PM
                                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                        Greetings,
                                        Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
                                        What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
                                        for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

                                        How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
                                        environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
                                        do so.

                                        Bright Blessings,
                                        Kim

                                        J P Malone wrote:
                                        > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                                        > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                                        > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                        >
                                        > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level
                                        research,
                                        > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
                                        >
                                        > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                                        > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                                        > learn more about how to be green.
                                        >
                                        > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping
                                        the
                                        > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't
                                        have
                                        > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                                        > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed
                                        opinion.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                        Garth
                                        > & Kim Travis
                                        > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                                        > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                                        >
                                        > Greetings,
                                        >
                                        > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                                        > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                                        > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                                        > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                                        > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                                        > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                                        > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                                        > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
                                        >
                                        > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                                        > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                                        > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                                        > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                                        > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
                                        >
                                        > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                                        > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                                        > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                                        > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
                                        >
                                        > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                                        > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                                        > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                                        > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                                        > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                                        > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                                        > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
                                        >
                                        > Bright Blessings,
                                        > Kim
                                        >
                                        > J P Malone wrote:
                                        >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        > Original question:
                                        > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                                        > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than
                                        land
                                        > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                                        > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be
                                        most
                                        > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste
                                        and
                                        > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
                                        >
                                        > Wikipedia
                                        >
                                        > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                                        > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                      • ajthomann@pol.net
                                        -1. I guess the algal fuels wheel is being reinvented all over the place.  The Chronicle had an article on algae last October:
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Feb 26, 2008
                                          -1. I guess the algal fuels 'wheel' is being reinvented all over the place.  The Chronicle had an article on algae last October:

                                          http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2007_4438360

                                          -2. Wasn't the solar airplane designed, manufactured, and flown by Rutan, basically 'free' of NASA participation? 


                                          Ariel
                                          - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                                          - All countries need NO REGRETS strategic policies regarding every non-renewable resource, including water.
                                          - Plan ahead seven generations -- reduce all your consumption, and eliminate waste.
                                          ----------------------------------------

                                        • J P Malone
                                          Thanks Ed. Also, below is a table from a Chronicle article that Ariel sent the link on. Gives a veggie oil yield per acre. Some very dramatic differences in
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                                            Thanks Ed. Also, below is a table from a Chronicle article that Ariel sent
                                            the link on. Gives a veggie oil yield per acre. Some very dramatic
                                            differences in yield. Not all the info needed to make a decision, but a
                                            good start. Why would anyone grow corn, if all other factors being equal,
                                            they could grow Algae? (I know, all factors are never equal, but there is a
                                            wide margin of safety in these numbers).


                                            FUELING GROWTH

                                            Yield of vegetable oil in gallons per acre per year:

                                            Algae: 100,000

                                            Palm: 700

                                            Rapeseed: 130

                                            Sunflower: 110

                                            Soybeans: 50

                                            Corn: 29

                                            Source: GlobalGreen Solutions; Valcent Products


                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed
                                            Sarlls
                                            Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:05 PM
                                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                            Try http://www.nrel.gov/ If the information is available they will have it.
                                            Ed Sarlls


                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "J P Malone" <JPMALONE@...>
                                            To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:38 PM
                                            Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel


                                            I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what
                                            crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow
                                            switch grass, bamboo, corn, algae, soybeans. Which will yield the highest
                                            amount of fuel, BTU, whatever the proper unit of measure maybe for the
                                            amount of land it takes to grow each crop. Like a retail store that measure
                                            profit dollars per square foot of rent paid. It is basic commerce. If my
                                            family owns 114,532 acres of land which currently grows switch grass is
                                            there another crop that will give me more energy biofuel per acre than
                                            switch grass (will it move a car further than what I am currently growing).

                                            That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                                            consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                                            product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that’s your
                                            label. To me it is a simple question.

                                            Does such a database exist? Period.

                                            I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                                            database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.

                                            Thanks.



                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                                            & Kim Travis
                                            Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:05 PM
                                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                            Greetings,
                                            Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
                                            What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
                                            for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

                                            How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
                                            environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
                                            do so.

                                            Bright Blessings,
                                            Kim

                                            J P Malone wrote:
                                            > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                                            > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                                            > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                            >
                                            > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level
                                            research,
                                            > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
                                            >
                                            > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                                            > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                                            > learn more about how to be green.
                                            >
                                            > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping
                                            the
                                            > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't
                                            have
                                            > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                                            > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed
                                            opinion.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                            Garth
                                            > & Kim Travis
                                            > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                                            > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                                            >
                                            > Greetings,
                                            >
                                            > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                                            > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                                            > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                                            > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                                            > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                                            > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                                            > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                                            > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
                                            >
                                            > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                                            > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                                            > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                                            > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                                            > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
                                            >
                                            > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                                            > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                                            > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                                            > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
                                            >
                                            > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                                            > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                                            > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                                            > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                                            > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                                            > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                                            > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
                                            >
                                            > Bright Blessings,
                                            > Kim
                                            >
                                            > J P Malone wrote:
                                            >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            > Original question:
                                            > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                                            > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than
                                            land
                                            > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                                            > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be
                                            most
                                            > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste
                                            and
                                            > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
                                            >
                                            > Wikipedia
                                            >
                                            > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                                            > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                            > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                                            > 8:45 PM
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >



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                                          • Garth & Kim Travis
                                            Greetings, No actually the data base you are asking for does exist. I had it on my computer about 8 years ago, but I have since removed all useless data. If
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                                              Greetings,
                                              No actually the data base you are asking for does exist. I had it on my
                                              computer about 8 years ago, but I have since removed all useless data.

                                              If you ask on a biofuels list, especially the one run off of
                                              www.journeytoforever.org they can tell you where the current info can be
                                              found.

                                              The real problem with the information is that it is all from monocrop
                                              situations. A practice we desperately need to end.

                                              The answers will not be found until we pay attention to the questions,
                                              for as Sarek said: "It is hard to answer when one does not understand
                                              the question." It is all tied together, so only by looking for closed
                                              systems and looking at all the ancillary consequences, can we come up
                                              with any answers that are better than the mess we are in today.

                                              Bright Blessings,
                                              Kim

                                              J P Malone wrote:
                                              >
                                              > That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                                              > consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                                              > product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that’s your
                                              > label. To me it is a simple question.
                                              >
                                              > Does such a database exist? Period.
                                              >
                                              > I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                                              > database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.
                                              >
                                              > Thanks.
                                              >
                                            • Garth & Kim Travis
                                              Greetings, I did, 15 years ago. I am working to create systems that are sustainable, and provide a variety of products, fuel and food, while caring for Mother
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                                                Greetings,
                                                I did, 15 years ago. I am working to create systems that are
                                                sustainable, and provide a variety of products, fuel and food, while
                                                caring for Mother Earth and improving health. Work crews to help move
                                                the work along are always welcome.
                                                Bright Blessings,
                                                Kim

                                                Neil Smith wrote:
                                                > Why don't all us crazed green folk buy some property. That way we can experiment with the products on hand. Seems far fetched but there is some good enthusiasm here. I am a builder of green homes so I will do my part.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Neil
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • J P Malone
                                                Thanks. ... From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth & Kim Travis Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:33 AM To:
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                                                  Thanks.

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                                                  & Kim Travis
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:33 AM
                                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                                  Greetings,
                                                  No actually the data base you are asking for does exist. I had it on my
                                                  computer about 8 years ago, but I have since removed all useless data.

                                                  If you ask on a biofuels list, especially the one run off of
                                                  www.journeytoforever.org they can tell you where the current info can be
                                                  found.

                                                  The real problem with the information is that it is all from monocrop
                                                  situations. A practice we desperately need to end.

                                                  The answers will not be found until we pay attention to the questions,
                                                  for as Sarek said: "It is hard to answer when one does not understand
                                                  the question." It is all tied together, so only by looking for closed
                                                  systems and looking at all the ancillary consequences, can we come up
                                                  with any answers that are better than the mess we are in today.

                                                  Bright Blessings,
                                                  Kim

                                                  J P Malone wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                                                  > consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                                                  > product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that’s your
                                                  > label. To me it is a simple question.
                                                  >
                                                  > Does such a database exist? Period.
                                                  >
                                                  > I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                                                  > database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks.
                                                  >



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                                                • Garth & Kim Travis
                                                  Greetings, In one word: Subsidies. One of the biggest problems is the government interference and support of many bad, bad ideas. If you have a strong
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                                                    Greetings,
                                                    In one word: Subsidies. One of the biggest problems is the government
                                                    interference and support of many bad, bad ideas. If you have a strong
                                                    stomache, read the early history of the FDA, then understand how big
                                                    money interests sell the rest of us out, in the name of protection.
                                                    Bright Blessings,
                                                    Kim

                                                    J P Malone wrote:
                                                    > Why would anyone grow corn, if all other factors being equal,
                                                    > they could grow Algae? (I know, all factors are never equal, but there is a
                                                    > wide margin of safety in these numbers).
                                                    >
                                                  • Gary Beck
                                                    Wow. Algae 100,000 gal/acre/year. Sounds a bit unbelievable but even if 1% of this level is true algae looks great, especially if you consider tax fueled
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                                                      Wow. Algae 100,000 gal/acre/year. Sounds a bit unbelievable but even if 1% of this level is true algae looks great, especially if you consider tax fueled subsidies versus private investment.

                                                      Government subsidies in Germany allowed my brother in law in Germany to begin buying rapeseed based biodiesel for his Audi wagon 15 years ago. I thought Rapeseed was a weed infestation when I first saw it being grown in Northern Germany. Government subsidies support US corn based Ethanol and I assume similar funds are available to support sunflowers and soybeans before a farmer invests his land. These government 'investments' of taxpayer money was probably very inefficient use of funds and self serving each area's political recipient, but they then (unexpectantly) pointed public interest in a green fuel direction.

                                                      For market driven biofuels, I'm sure 'algae in the desert' started with research grants, but then private investment probably quickly took over when the $ returns were projected. On the other end of the private investment scale palm oil from tropical regions requires only land, growth time, and unskilled labor. I've been in Palm Oil plantation in Malaysia and they take huge swaths out of tropical forest areas. You would hope that some smart algae technology investor is already talking to the Malay palm oil producers about building an algae plant or two and while converting palm oil plantations into organic food crop production farms. Then replicate that business plan somewhere in arid north Africa. Talk about a green impact!

                                                      To summarize... subsidies bad, grants good, and green technology transfer better*.

                                                      Gary Beck, P.E., LEED AP

                                                      Engineering and Green Consulting Services
                                                      Eco-Holdings 4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd., Ste 114 Houston, TX 77025
                                                      Tel: 713-377-4209 Fax: 832-201-5338 www.ecoegr.com
                                                      Engineering Services: Inspection of Foundation and Framing Systems;
                                                      Residential, Retail, Commercial, Lodging, Educational, & Governmental
                                                      Design Documents (Blue Prints) Energy Consulting, Low Energy Design

                                                      *and small smart government best!



                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 6:28 AM
                                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                                      Thanks Ed. Also, below is a table from a Chronicle article that Ariel sent
                                                      the link on. Gives a veggie oil yield per acre. Some very dramatic
                                                      differences in yield. Not all the info needed to make a decision, but a
                                                      good start. Why would anyone grow corn, if all other factors being equal,
                                                      they could grow Algae? (I know, all factors are never equal, but there is a
                                                      wide margin of safety in these numbers).


                                                      FUELING GROWTH

                                                      Yield of vegetable oil in gallons per acre per year:

                                                      Algae: 100,000

                                                      Palm: 700

                                                      Rapeseed: 130

                                                      Sunflower: 110

                                                      Soybeans: 50

                                                      Corn: 29

                                                      Source: GlobalGreen Solutions; Valcent Products


                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed
                                                      Sarlls
                                                      Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:05 PM
                                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                                      Try http://www.nrel.gov/ If the information is available they will have it.
                                                      Ed Sarlls


                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "J P Malone" <JPMALONE@...>
                                                      To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:38 PM
                                                      Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel


                                                      I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what
                                                      crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow
                                                      switch grass, bamboo, corn, algae, soybeans. Which will yield the highest
                                                      amount of fuel, BTU, whatever the proper unit of measure maybe for the
                                                      amount of land it takes to grow each crop. Like a retail store that measure
                                                      profit dollars per square foot of rent paid. It is basic commerce. If my
                                                      family owns 114,532 acres of land which currently grows switch grass is
                                                      there another crop that will give me more energy biofuel per acre than
                                                      switch grass (will it move a car further than what I am currently growing).

                                                      That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                                                      consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                                                      product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that's your
                                                      label. To me it is a simple question.

                                                      Does such a database exist? Period.

                                                      I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                                                      database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.

                                                      Thanks.



                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                                                      & Kim Travis
                                                      Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:05 PM
                                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                                      Greetings,
                                                      Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
                                                      What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
                                                      for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

                                                      How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
                                                      environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
                                                      do so.

                                                      Bright Blessings,
                                                      Kim

                                                      J P Malone wrote:
                                                      > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                                                      > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                                                      > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                                      >
                                                      > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level
                                                      research,
                                                      > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
                                                      >
                                                      > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                                                      > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                                                      > learn more about how to be green.
                                                      >
                                                      > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping
                                                      the
                                                      > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't
                                                      have
                                                      > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                                                      > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed
                                                      opinion.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                      > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                      Garth
                                                      > & Kim Travis
                                                      > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                                                      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                                                      >
                                                      > Greetings,
                                                      >
                                                      > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                                                      > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                                                      > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                                                      > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                                                      > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                                                      > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                                                      > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                                                      > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
                                                      >
                                                      > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                                                      > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                                                      > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                                                      > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                                                      > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
                                                      >
                                                      > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                                                      > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                                                      > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                                                      > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
                                                      >
                                                      > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                                                      > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                                                      > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                                                      > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                                                      > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                                                      > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                                                      > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
                                                      >
                                                      > Bright Blessings,
                                                      > Kim
                                                      >
                                                      > J P Malone wrote:
                                                      >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                                                      >>
                                                      >
                                                      > Original question:
                                                      > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                                                      > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than
                                                      land
                                                      > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                                                      > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be
                                                      most
                                                      > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste
                                                      and
                                                      > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
                                                      >
                                                      > Wikipedia
                                                      >
                                                      > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                                                      > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                                      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                                      > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                                                      > 8:45 PM
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >



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                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    • J P Malone
                                                      Or replicate it, as you say, in the Mojave, Sonora, and Chihuahua deserts of North America. Estimates came out yesterday that the full cost of the Iraq war may
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008

                                                        Or replicate it, as you say, in the Mojave, Sonora, and Chihuahua deserts of North America.

                                                        Estimates came out yesterday that the full cost of the Iraq war may be closer to $3.5 billion.  With that kind of $$ investment solar take a giant step forward.

                                                         

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Beck
                                                        Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:33 AM
                                                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                                         

                                                        Wow. Algae 100,000 gal/acre/year. Sounds a bit unbelievable but even if 1% of this level is true algae looks great, especially if you consider tax fueled subsidies versus private investment.

                                                        Government subsidies in Germany allowed my brother in law in Germany to begin buying rapeseed based biodiesel for his Audi wagon 15 years ago. I thought Rapeseed was a weed infestation when I first saw it being grown in Northern Germany. Government subsidies support US corn based Ethanol and I assume similar funds are available to support sunflowers and soybeans before a farmer invests his land. These government 'investments' of taxpayer money was probably very inefficient use of funds and self serving each area's political recipient, but they then (unexpectantly) pointed public interest in a green fuel direction.

                                                        For market driven biofuels, I'm sure 'algae in the desert' started with research grants, but then private investment probably quickly took over when the $ returns were projected. On the other end of the private investment scale palm oil from tropical regions requires only land, growth time, and unskilled labor. I've been in Palm Oil plantation in Malaysia and they take huge swaths out of tropical forest areas. You would hope that some smart algae technology investor is already talking to the Malay palm oil producers about building an algae plant or two and while converting palm oil plantations into organic food crop production farms. Then replicate that business plan somewhere in arid north Africa. Talk about a green impact!

                                                        To summarize... subsidies bad, grants good, and green technology transfer better*.

                                                        Gary Beck, P.E., LEED AP

                                                        Engineering and Green Consulting Services
                                                        Eco-Holdings 4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd., Ste 114 Houston, TX 77025
                                                        Tel: 713-377-4209 Fax: 832-201-5338 www.ecoegr.com
                                                        Engineering Services: Inspection of Foundation and Framing Systems;
                                                        Residential, Retail, Commercial, Lodging, Educational, & Governmental
                                                        Design Documents (Blue Prints) Energy Consulting, Low Energy Design

                                                        *and small smart government best!

                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
                                                        Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 6:28 AM
                                                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                                        Thanks Ed. Also, below is a table from a Chronicle article that Ariel sent
                                                        the link on. Gives a veggie oil yield per acre. Some very dramatic
                                                        differences in yield. Not all the info needed to make a decision, but a
                                                        good start. Why would anyone grow corn, if all other factors being equal,
                                                        they could grow Algae? (I know, all factors are never equal, but there is a
                                                        wide margin of safety in these numbers).

                                                        FUELING GROWTH

                                                        Yield of vegetable oil in gallons per acre per year:

                                                        Algae: 100,000

                                                        Palm: 700

                                                        Rapeseed: 130

                                                        Sunflower: 110

                                                        Soybeans: 50

                                                        Corn: 29

                                                        Source: GlobalGreen Solutions; Valcent Products

                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed
                                                        Sarlls
                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:05 PM
                                                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                                        Try http://www.nrel.gov/ If the information is available they will have it.
                                                        Ed Sarlls

                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                        From: "J P Malone" <JPMALONE@...>
                                                        To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:38 PM
                                                        Subject: RE: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                                        I was simply asking if anyone knows of a database that shows data on what
                                                        crop will give the highest energy biofuel. For example, if one can grow
                                                        switch grass, bamboo, corn, algae, soybeans. Which will yield the highest
                                                        amount of fuel, BTU, whatever the proper unit of measure maybe for the
                                                        amount of land it takes to grow each crop. Like a retail store that measure
                                                        profit dollars per square foot of rent paid. It is basic commerce. If my
                                                        family owns 114,532 acres of land which currently grows switch grass is
                                                        there another crop that will give me more energy biofuel per acre than
                                                        switch grass (will it move a car further than what I am currently growing).

                                                        That was the only question I was asking. Not any other ancillary,
                                                        consequential, other parameters that might constrain one choice or waste
                                                        product questions. If that means virgin product to you, fine, that's your
                                                        label. To me it is a simple question.

                                                        Does such a database exist? Period.

                                                        I guess the answer must be that no one knows of the existence of such a
                                                        database, otherwise I would have an answer by now.

                                                        Thanks.

                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
                                                        & Kim Travis
                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 7:05 PM
                                                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                                        Greetings,
                                                        Then please explain what you mean by energy yeild of biofuels per acre?
                                                        What else could it mean? Definitely sounds to me like growing a crop
                                                        for biofuels or in more formal terms, virgin product usage.

                                                        How would you clean up the polution? By using the waste products in an
                                                        environmental sound way, such as making biofuels, is my idea of how to
                                                        do so.

                                                        Bright Blessings,
                                                        Kim

                                                        J P Malone wrote:
                                                        > I never mentioned "virgin product usage", that was your statement.
                                                        > The original question was "Does anyone know of a source that ranks the
                                                        > energy yield of biofuels per acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                                        >
                                                        > My question was not framed for a project definition for NASA level
                                                        research,
                                                        > merely a request for information. Did not mean to irritate anyone.
                                                        >
                                                        > One thing that turns a lot of people off about the green movement is the
                                                        > Gestapo attitude that sometimes surfaces when less informed people try to
                                                        > learn more about how to be green.
                                                        >
                                                        > Personally, I think the place to start is not cleaning up, but stopping
                                                        the
                                                        > continued pollution. Without stopping the growth of pollution we won't
                                                        have
                                                        > time to clean up the mess that has already been done. Hopefully we can
                                                        > start both simultaneously. But that is strictly my poorly informed
                                                        opinion.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                        > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                        Garth
                                                        > & Kim Travis
                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM
                                                        > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel
                                                        >
                                                        > Greetings,
                                                        >
                                                        > Questioning is fine, but looking at it from a virgin product usage is a
                                                        > real problem and that is what your question was. Corn and soybean are
                                                        > food, now if you are asking how much fuel can be made from the waste
                                                        > products of each crop, then that is different. You need to expand the
                                                        > question to acknowledge the real crop and the available refuse, plus
                                                        > what will be needed to restore fertility to the field if you take the
                                                        > refuse. A straight line question of how much per acre will always give
                                                        > a bad answer that will lead to a further depletion of major resources.
                                                        >
                                                        > Bad lines of inquiry are always part of the problem. How you phrase you
                                                        > questions directs how research is done and what possibilities are
                                                        > eliminated. No human can investigate every line of possibility, that is
                                                        > why research is designed to answer certain questions. If the question
                                                        > are poorly phrased, the research is useless.
                                                        >
                                                        > The place to start is by cleaning up the wastes we have contaminating
                                                        > the planet. That line of inquiry coupled to conservation efforts will
                                                        > solve a certain percentage of the problem. Then and only then, should
                                                        > we be looking at any virgin product for fuel production.
                                                        >
                                                        > A big production research project would eliminate the conservation
                                                        > portion of what we need. Most people would go on being energy hogs and
                                                        > our environment will continue to be destroyed. We need the fuel crunch
                                                        > to end the spoil brat era of western societies. Few will volunteer to
                                                        > grow up, if not forced to. The volunteers are here, and places like
                                                        > this. But what percentage of the population are concerned enough to try
                                                        > to learn about conservation and fuel alternatives?
                                                        >
                                                        > Bright Blessings,
                                                        > Kim
                                                        >
                                                        > J P Malone wrote:
                                                        >> Not sure how a question can be part of the problem.
                                                        >>
                                                        >
                                                        > Original question:
                                                        > "Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is
                                                        > reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than
                                                        land
                                                        > crops such as soybeans, and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000
                                                        > gpa. Unused desert land (which receives high solar radiation) could be
                                                        most
                                                        > effective for growing the algae, and the algae could utilize farm waste
                                                        and
                                                        > excess CO2 from factories to help speed the growth of the algae."
                                                        >
                                                        > Wikipedia
                                                        >
                                                        > Does anyone know of a source that ranks the energy yield of biofuels per
                                                        > acre; replenishment cycle time, etc.?
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                                        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                                        > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1298 - Release Date: 2/25/2008
                                                        > 8:45 PM
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >

                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links

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                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links

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                                                      • PatGBrown@aol.com
                                                        $3.5 TRILLION **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                                                          $3.5 TRILLION




                                                          Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living.
                                                        • Robert Foster
                                                          See ppt table attached. Algae is by far the highest density biofuel resource, but still not ready for prime time. See more at
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                                                            See ppt table attached. Algae is by far the highest density biofuel resource, but still not ready for prime time. See more at


                                                            Also check out the Oct. 2007 National Geographic excellent biofuels article.

                                                            Regards,

                                                            Robert Foster

                                                          • Neil Smith
                                                            What kind if work needs to be done? Have any pics or info on systems that work? I am in the process of building a raised bed garden and could always use tips
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Feb 27, 2008
                                                              What kind if work needs to be done?  Have any pics or info on systems that work?  I am in the process of building a raised bed garden and could always use tips from those who have the experience of what works best.

                                                              Thanks so much
                                                              Neil

                                                              ----- Original Message ----
                                                              From: Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@...>
                                                              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:35:25 AM
                                                              Subject: Re: [hreg] Commercial aircraft flight partial on biofuel

                                                              Greetings,
                                                              I did, 15 years ago. I am working to create systems that are
                                                              sustainable, and provide a variety of products, fuel and food, while
                                                              caring for Mother Earth and improving health. Work crews to help move
                                                              the work along are always welcome.
                                                              Bright Blessings,
                                                              Kim

                                                              Neil Smith wrote:

                                                              > Why don't all us crazed green folk buy some property. That way we can experiment with the products on hand. Seems far fetched but there is some good enthusiasm here. I am a builder of green homes so I will do my part.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Neil
                                                              >
                                                              >




                                                              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                                                            • Garth & Kim Travis
                                                              Greetings, The phone system out here has been very bad for the last few months, so no pictures available. I have been known to log on at 4.5, takes me back
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Feb 28, 2008
                                                                Greetings,
                                                                The phone system out here has been very bad for the last few months, so
                                                                no pictures available. I have been known to log on at 4.5, takes me
                                                                back too many years. One of these days I will get my web site done, but
                                                                no time.

                                                                As always, we have a variety of projects on the go. Depends on the
                                                                weather, time of year, etc. Fences are my one wish for a fairy god mother.

                                                                We are building water catchments and installing a small off grid system
                                                                in the rabbitry at the moment, whenever the gardening chores are caught
                                                                up. Contact us off list if you would like to come for a working visit.

                                                                Bright Blessings,
                                                                Kim & Garth

                                                                Neil Smith wrote:
                                                                > What kind if work needs to be done? Have any pics or info on systems
                                                                > that work? I am in the process of building a raised bed garden and
                                                                > could always use tips from those who have the experience of what works best.
                                                                >
                                                                > Thanks so much
                                                                > Neil
                                                                >
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