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RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

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  • Ooi, Han S [NTK]
    Perhaps my definition of a supercapacitor is different from others. I have a EE degree. Back in the days of EE class, the prof defined a supercapacitor as
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 5, 2007
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      Perhaps my definition of a “supercapacitor” is different from others.  I have a EE degree.  Back in the days of EE class, the prof defined a supercapacitor as one that can hold an immense amount of charge with no current leakage.  To do that, it needs an immense (near infinite) electrode surface area and the material keeping the electrode apart has infinite resistance.  The near infinite resistance also prevents the capacitor from discharging by itself.

       

      The supercapacitors we have today I would classify as very high capacity.  They certainly hold a lot of charge but they are far from the textbook ideal.  I guess the textbook definition got used a bit loosely; I do note on the Maxwell website, they refer to their capacitor as “ultracapacitors” so they at least did not violate the definition of “supercapacitor” as I learned it.

       

      I referred to diamond desposition nanotechnology and superconductors because that is what is needed to create a safe capacitor that is close to the textbook ideal.  Superconductor electrodes would have no resistance, the diamond capacitor would be build up in layers with each layer either doped to be a superconductor or a super resistance material.  All this build atomic layer by atomic layer so the surface area would be immense.

       

      I have used high capacity capacitors back in my job designing machines for factories.  We had this machine that cut cardboard into distinct shapes and its roller cutters needed to be able to change speed very quickly repeatedly.  The most energy efficient way was to use capacitors which would store the steel rollers’ energy to slow them down and discharge to speed them up.

       

      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Power
      Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:03 PM
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

       

      They have been around for a while, not cheep. I have one in my car and one to play with, a medium sized one by today’s standards, only 50f, but when you consider most capacitors are mfd  a 50 farad cap has a bunch of storage. It makes me nervous if there is ever a short. It does make the 12v power rail absolutely ridged.

       

      Clipped from the wiki

       

      “One of the earliest commercial-grade electronic devices powered by a single SuperCapacitor (a high-quality audio mixer) was described in the milestone article "Single capacitor powers audio mixer" authored by Aleksandr Belousov (EDN, March 14, 1997) [2]. A carefully designed circuit, which utilized micro-power amplifiers and farad-range supercapacitor (SuperCap or DynaCap), was capable of running for more than 2 hours on a single charge. It also demonstrated the ability to be charged very fast (in about ten seconds) compared to the hours required for traditional rechargeable batteries.”

       

      The new caps are using a very rigid and brittle ceramic material which makes it a challenge to use them in a mobile situation. Packaging and stabilization is the key. If a LiION can burst into flames who wants the equivalent of a tank full of gas of energy going poof in a second or so.

       

       

      David

      Perhaps we (I?) have our terms confused. Define super capacitors.

      Paul

      5:51pm, Bashir Syed wrote:

      > Paul:
      > You are wrong to state that Super Capacitors don't exist. I have used them
      in my RADIATION reasearch while I was supporting NASA/JSC's SR&QA Division. Our research was collaborated by Prairie View A&M University's Center for Applied Radiation Research and funded by NASA/JSC's SR&C Advanced Technology Group. The units we used were manufactured by Maxwell Industries, and since that time (between 2000 and 2003) Japanese Industry took the ball and ran with it. There is a lot of research going on Super Capacitors for Energy Storage in Japan. Maxwell also published APPLICATION NOTES on their products, which one might be able to obtain if the company has not been bought up by some other Conglomerate as it usually happens these days.
      >
      > Bashir A. Syed
      > Retired Aerospace Physicist
      > Senior Member International Solar Energy Society, & Member ASES
      > VP, R&D
      > Alt-EnergyTech, Inc.
      > Houston, TX 77058
      > Biz: 281-333-9889.
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Paul Archer
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 5:08 PM
      > Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for
      electric cars?
      >
      >
      > 4:36pm, Ooi, Han S [NTK] wrote:
      >
      > > Well, the problem with that analogy is hydrogen fuel cells really do
      exist. They were used by NASA on the Apollo missions. Super capacitors don't exist. They are more of a theoretical ideal in physics and electrical engineering.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > And quite frankly, the technology to build super capacitors are not
      mature yet. You would need room temperature super conductors and nano, 3D, mono-isotope diamond technology. These are all on the frontier of research and much work needs to be done.
      > >
      > > Han
      > >
      > >
      > Just out of curiousity, Han, what is your background in regards to this
      > subject matter, or where are you getting your information?
      > I've been following this issue of ultracapacitors for a while, and have
      > never heard mention of the need for superconductors, or 3D mono-isotope
      > anything.
      > (BTW, supercapacitors exist. Ultracapacitors (caps with a power density
      > greater than a battery) are the issue at hand.)
      >
      > Paul
      >
      >
      >

      ----------------------------------------------------------
      The wonder of all the Internet security problems is that they
      are continually labeled as 'e-mail viruses' or 'Internet worms,'
      rather than the more correct designation of 'Windows viruses' or
      'Microsoft Outlook viruses.'" --Robert X. Cringely
      ----------------------------------------------------------

      -----11005 days until retirement!-----

    • Ariel Thomann
      There s also ASES; specifically with Solar Tours coming up: http://www.ases.org/tour/ Or EAA s http://www.eaaev.org/eaaevents.html#AltWheels if you re
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 5, 2007
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        There's also ASES; specifically with Solar Tours coming up: http://www.ases.org/tour/
        Or EAA's http://www.eaaev.org/eaaevents.html#AltWheels if you're inclined to travel.



        On Wed, September 5, 2007 09:41 CDT, JOHN GARDNER wrote:



















         


        Take a look at the TXSES calendar of events.


         








        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Solar Energy com>
        To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2007 10:59:50 PM
        Subject: [hreg] Any Events coming up?


        Are there any events coming up on renewable energy?

        Thanks,

        Ahmad




        Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more.

         







         



















         

         





        Ariel
        - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
        - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
        ------------------------------------

      • Bashir Syed
        The basic Physics governs the behavior of a Capacitor, in which the dielectric properties of the medium filling the space between two charged electrodes plays
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 5, 2007
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          The basic Physics governs the behavior of a Capacitor, in which the dielectric properties of the medium filling the space between two charged electrodes plays a significant role. One of the electrode in an Ultra Capacitor is made up of spongy carbon, which increases the effective area of this electrode. The dielectric material in this device is an organic gel. Superconductivity has nothing to do with its electrical behavior. Superconductivitivity plays only a role when charge flows through a conductor. In a capacitor Charge is stationary unless there is conductive path internally or externally. What most people tend to forget is that our environment has ionizing radiation both from within the earth (due to the presence of radioactive elements like Uranium, Thorium, Radium, etc.) and from the high energy protons and other heavy elements (like Iron ions), coming towards us in the form of Cosmic rays. High energy protons come from Solar flares and Coronal Mass Ejections (CME) which are responsible for a charged object to lose its charge after a while. Ultra capacitors can hold the charge for quite a while, but due to ionized medium (i.e. dielectric), the charge is effected. But as Maxwell's literature shows that such capacitors are used across a DC source which is frequently turned on and off to opperate a machine (like DC motors, etc. in trams -Europe) The transients are cushioned by the presence of such a device across the power source (such as batteries) and does not cause undue stress upon the source of EMF. Our tests verified the fact that Ionising Radiation (like Cosmic rays and High Energy Solar Protons) as we know, does effect the stored charge in these devices, but very little effect is caused by Gamma radiation.  
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:03 AM
          Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

          Perhaps my definition of a “supercapacitor” is different from others.  I have a EE degree.  Back in the days of EE class, the prof defined a supercapacitor as one that can hold an immense amount of charge with no current leakage.  To do that, it needs an immense (near infinite) electrode surface area and the material keeping the electrode apart has infinite resistance.  The near infinite resistance also prevents the capacitor from discharging by itself.

          The supercapacitors we have today I would classify as very high capacity.  They certainly hold a lot of charge but they are far from the textbook ideal.  I guess the textbook definition got used a bit loosely; I do note on the Maxwell website, they refer to their capacitor as “ultracapacitors” so they at least did not violate the definition of “supercapacitor” as I learned it.

          I referred to diamond desposition nanotechnology and superconductors because that is what is needed to create a safe capacitor that is close to the textbook ideal.  Superconductor electrodes would have no resistance, the diamond capacitor would be build up in layers with each layer either doped to be a superconductor or a super resistance material.  All this build atomic layer by atomic layer so the surface area would be immense.

          I have used high capacity capacitors back in my job designing machines for factories.  We had this machine that cut cardboard into distinct shapes and its roller cutters needed to be able to change speed very quickly repeatedly.  The most energy efficient way was to use capacitors which would store the steel rollers’ energy to slow them down and discharge to speed them up.

          From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of David Power
          Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:03 PM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
          Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

          They have been around for a while, not cheep. I have one in my car and one to play with, a medium sized one by today’s standards, only 50f, but when you consider most capacitors are mfd  a 50 farad cap has a bunch of storage. It makes me nervous if there is ever a short. It does make the 12v power rail absolutely ridged.

          Clipped from the wiki

          “One of the earliest commercial-grade electronic devices powered by a single SuperCapacitor (a high-quality audio mixer) was described in the milestone article "Single capacitor powers audio mixer" authored by Aleksandr Belousov (EDN, March 14, 1997) [2]. A carefully designed circuit, which utilized micro-power amplifiers and farad-range supercapacitor (SuperCap or DynaCap), was capable of running for more than 2 hours on a single charge. It also demonstrated the ability to be charged very fast (in about ten seconds) compared to the hours required for traditional rechargeable batteries.”

          The new caps are using a very rigid and brittle ceramic material which makes it a challenge to use them in a mobile situation. Packaging and stabilization is the key. If a LiION can burst into flames who wants the equivalent of a tank full of gas of energy going poof in a second or so.

          David

          Perhaps we (I?) have our terms confused. Define super capacitors.

          Paul

          5:51pm, Bashir Syed wrote:

          > Paul:
          > You are wrong to state that Super Capacitors don't exist. I have used them in my RADIATION reasearch while I was supporting NASA/JSC's SR&QA Division. Our research was collaborated by Prairie View A&M University's Center for Applied Radiation Research and funded by NASA/JSC's SR&C Advanced Technology Group. The units we used were manufactured by Maxwell Industries, and since that time (between 2000 and 2003) Japanese Industry took the ball and ran with it. There is a lot of research going on Super Capacitors for Energy Storage in Japan. Maxwell also published APPLICATION NOTES on their products, which one might be able to obtain if the company has not been bought up by some other Conglomerate as it usually happens these days.
          >
          > Bashir A. Syed
          > Retired Aerospace Physicist
          > Senior Member International Solar Energy Society, & Member ASES
          > VP, R&D
          > Alt-EnergyTech, Inc.
          > Houston, TX 77058
          > Biz: 281-333-9889.
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Paul Archer
          > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
          > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 5:08 PM
          > Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?
          >
          >
          > 4:36pm, Ooi, Han S [NTK] wrote:
          >
          > > Well, the problem with that analogy is hydrogen fuel cells really do exist. They were used by NASA on the Apollo missions. Super capacitors don't exist. They are more of a theoretical ideal in physics and electrical engineering.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > And quite frankly, the technology to build super capacitors are not mature yet. You would need room temperature super conductors and nano, 3D, mono-isotope diamond technology. These are all on the frontier of research and much work needs to be done.
          > >
          > > Han
          > >
          > >
          > Just out of curiousity, Han, what is your background in regards to this
          > subject matter, or where are you getting your information?
          > I've been following this issue of ultracapacitors for a while, and have
          > never heard mention of the need for superconductors, or 3D mono-isotope
          > anything.
          > (BTW, supercapacitors exist. Ultracapacitors (caps with a power density
          > greater than a battery) are the issue at hand.)
          >
          > Paul
          >
          >
          >

          ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
          The wonder of all the Internet security problems is that they
          are continually labeled as 'e-mail viruses' or 'Internet worms,'
          rather than the more correct designation of 'Windows viruses' or
          'Microsoft Outlook viruses.'" --Robert X. Cringely
          ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

          -----11005 days until retirement!- ----

        • Gary Beck
          I have sent the presentation to the emails we had for the class attendees. If you attended but did not receive a copy, please email me. Thanks, Gary Beck,
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 6, 2007
          • 0 Attachment

            I have sent the presentation to the emails we had for the class attendees.

             

            If you attended but did not receive a copy, please email me.

             

            Thanks,

             

            Gary Beck, P.E., LEED AP

            Eco-Holdings LLC

            4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd., Suite 114

            Houston, Texas 77025

             

            Tel: 713-377-4209

            Fax: 832-201-5338

            Cell: 713-530-1950

            www.eco-holdings.com

             

            “Where Sustainability is Designed”

             

          • RHANI BABENDURE
            I would appreciate receiving the presentation copy even though I was not there. If possible, please send to me as follows: Rhani Sale Babendure
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 6, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
                     I would appreciate receiving the presentation copy even though I was not there.  If  possible,  please 
               send to me as follows:
                                                              Rhani Sale Babendure
                                                              2023 Fairway Green     
                                                              Kingwood, TX  77339
               
                                                              281-360-4880 
               
                      Thank you!    

              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              From: eco@...
              Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:50:02 -0500
              Subject: [hreg] Green Homes Intro Class Presentation Copy

              I have sent the presentation to the emails we had for the class attendees.

               

              If you attended but did not receive a copy, please email me.

               

              Thanks,

               

              Gary Beck, P.E., LEED AP

              Eco-Holdings LLC

              4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd., Suite 114

              Houston, Texas 77025

               

              Tel: 713-377-4209

              Fax: 832-201-5338

              Cell: 713-530-1950

              www.eco-holdings. com

               

              “Where Sustainability is Designed”

               


            • Pete J. Carrasquillo
              Me too please: Pete J. Carrasquillo 14527 Cottage Timbers Houston, Texas 77044 Pete J. Carrasquillo Remax Suburban 832-969-5685 Direct 281-852-8900 Office
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 6, 2007
              • 0 Attachment

                Me too please:

                 

                Pete J. Carrasquillo

                14527 Cottage Timbers

                Houston, Texas 77044

                 

                Pete J. Carrasquillo

                Remax Suburban

                832-969-5685 Direct

                281-852-8900 Office

                832-644-2572 Fax

                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RHANI BABENDURE
                Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 3:55 PM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [hreg] Green Homes Intro Class Presentation Copy

                 

                       I would appreciate receiving the presentation copy even though I was not there.  If  possible,  please 
                 send to me as follows:
                                                                Rhani Sale Babendure
                                                                2023 Fairway Green     
                                                                Kingwood, TX  77339
                 
                                                                281-360-4880 
                 
                        Thank you!    


                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                From: eco@...
                Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:50:02 -0500
                Subject: [hreg] Green Homes Intro Class Presentation Copy

                I have sent the presentation to the emails we had for the class attendees.

                 

                If you attended but did not receive a copy, please email me.

                 

                Thanks,

                 

                Gary Beck, P.E., LEED AP

                Eco-Holdings LLC

                4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd., Suite 114

                Houston, Texas 77025

                 

                Tel: 713-377-4209

                Fax: 832-201-5338

                Cell: 713-530-1950

                www.eco-holdings.com

                 

                “Where Sustainability is Designed”

                 

                 

              • Solar Energy
                Thanks to you, Bashir & Gardner, for your reply. Ariel Thomann wrote: There s also ASES; specifically with Solar Tours coming up:
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 6, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks to you, Bashir & Gardner, for your reply.

                  Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@...> wrote:

                  There's also ASES; specifically with Solar Tours coming up: http://www.ases. org/tour/
                  Or EAA's http://www.eaaev. org/eaaevents. html#AltWheels if you're inclined to travel.



                  On Wed, September 5, 2007 09:41 CDT, JOHN GARDNER wrote:



















                   

                  Take a look at the TXSES calendar of events.


                   








                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Solar Energy com>
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2007 10:59:50 PM
                  Subject: [hreg] Any Events coming up?


                  Are there any events coming up on renewable energy?

                  Thanks,

                  Ahmad



                  Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more.
                   






                   


















                   
                   




                  Ariel
                  - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                  - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                  ------------ --------- --------- ------



                  Building a website is a piece of cake.
                  Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

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