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RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

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  • Ooi, Han S [NTK]
    I would say this is nothing more than a pump and dump stock scam PR piece. The fact that the stock of Zenn lists on the Toronto exchange only further confirms
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 4, 2007
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      I would say this is nothing more than a pump and dump stock scam PR piece.  The fact that the stock of Zenn lists on the Toronto exchange only further confirms my suspicions.  The Toronto Exchange has a reputation of being like the Pink Sheets.

       

      Putting super capacitors in cars would be the very worst application possible, if they even exist (which they don’t).  Regular capacitors leak charge; a capacitor of this level of capacity’s charge leakage would produce some serious heat.  Also, for a super capacitor to exist, one needs a near perfect insulator that would stay as such in different temperature ranges. 

       

      Now consider such a capacitor really storing so much energy in a car.  What happens when the car gets hit and the capacitor gets compromised?  The whole car would explode like a thermite bomb when the capacitor short circuits; such an explosion may produce enough heat to melt the concrete the car happens to be riding on.

       

      To give some background info, a few years back, some Taiwanese manufacturers stole the design from the Japanese of a high capacity capacitor for computer motherboards.  The problem was the Taiwanese didn’t get all the info and manufactured a bunch of defective knockoffs.  Those defective knockoffs had the unfortunate tendency to overheat and leak or explode on the Taiwanese computer motherboards that used them.

       

      If this company was honest, the best application would be for super capacitors to be installed in homes or commercial buildings.  Then one would be able to buy power at the low late night rate and use it during the day when electricity cost much more.  Or power companies would use larger versions of super capacitors to smooth out the electric load thus reducing the need for expensive peaker power plants.  Both application have the advantage of being stationary where protective shielding and cooling could be better deployed to increase safety.

       

      Han Ooi

       

      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim & Janet
      Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:49 AM
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

       

      For what it's worth, the parent company has some impressive venture capital backing them. That's not to say the VCs are always right but those with a far better than average success rate, only a handfull,  do demand more respect and attention.

      The article was in the Fort Worth Star Telegram as well.

      Jim Duncan

       

      ----- Original Message -----

      Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:01 AM

      Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

       

      I think the issue with Zenn is that even with the new ultracapacitors from
      EEstor, they're still selling low-speed vehicles. While it's a great idea in
      theory, how many people are really going to be willing to shell out the $$$
      for a car that they can only drive in their neighborhood--especially when
      getting to the grocery store (for instance) generally means getting on a
      street like Chimney Rock or Bellfort (to name a couple in my area) where the
      traffic is doing 45-50MPH most of the time?

      Now, EEstor, on the other hand, may be revolutionary. I don't think they'll
      take Zenn with them, though, unless Zenn branches out into full-speed cars.

      Paul

      11:28am, chasmauch@... wrote:

      > Very interesting article in the Chronicle today (see first link below) about
      > Zenn Motor Company, a Canadian electric car company that has licensed the
      > new invention. It will be revolutionary (if it works). There are sceptics and
      > its a long shot but if it does work this company would seem to have pretty
      > fantastic prospects. Possibly another Microsoft, AOL, or Amazon?
      >
      > So just for kicks I went to their website (second link below) and watched
      > the video about the little electric cars they are making (it does not mention
      > the new technology). There is a link to the Toronto stock exchange where it is
      > listed. It's symbol is ZNNMF and it's pretty cheap so I put in an order with
      > Fidelity for 100 shares. It immediately filled at $3.4313. I was willing to
      > gamble that much almost sight unseen to see if it could be bought in this
      > country - turns out it can be.
      >
      > Clearly the risk (but also potential reward) is pretty great. Did I just
      > blow $343? Does anyone know any more about this and can help me do some real due
      > diligence?
      >
      > _http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/5104667.html_
      > (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/5104667.html)
      >
      > _http://www.zenncars.com/_ (http://www.zenncars.com/)
      >
      >
      >
      > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
      > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
      >

      ----------------------------------------------------------
      "My parents just came back from a planet where the dominant lifeform
      had no bilateral symmetry, and all I got was this stupid F-Shirt."
      ----------------------------------------------------------

      -----11005 days until retirement!-----

    • Jim & Janet
      Han wrote: Or power companies would use larger versions of super capacitors to smooth out the electric load thus reducing the need for expensive peak power
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 4, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Han wrote:
        Or power companies would use larger versions of super capacitors to smooth out the electric load thus reducing the need for expensive peak power plants.
         
        Already a number of utilities have constructed huge battery banks to store power for use during short, critical peak load periods. Situated in specific locations to address heavy localized loads seems to be just enough "distributed generation" to get past the critical demand.
        Also the article in the FWST (I didn't read the Houston version) stated the potential for a stationary PV power storage device was another goal of the technology. Cap output would work perfectly for short surges like when the air conditioner compressor and fan kicks on and overnight.
        Jim Duncan
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 1:42 PM
        Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

        I would say this is nothing more than a pump and dump stock scam PR piece.  The fact that the stock of Zenn lists on the Toronto exchange only further confirms my suspicions.  The Toronto Exchange has a reputation of being like the Pink Sheets.

        Putting super capacitors in cars would be the very worst application possible, if they even exist (which they don’t).  Regular capacitors leak charge; a capacitor of this level of capacity’s charge leakage would produce some serious heat.  Also, for a super capacitor to exist, one needs a near perfect insulator that would stay as such in different temperature ranges. 

        Now consider such a capacitor really storing so much energy in a car.  What happens when the car gets hit and the capacitor gets compromised?  The whole car would explode like a thermite bomb when the capacitor short circuits; such an explosion may produce enough heat to melt the concrete the car happens to be riding on.

        To give some background info, a few years back, some Taiwanese manufacturers stole the design from the Japanese of a high capacity capacitor for computer motherboards.  The problem was the Taiwanese didn’t get all the info and manufactured a bunch of defective knockoffs.  Those defective knockoffs had the unfortunate tendency to overheat and leak or explode on the Taiwanese computer motherboards that used them.

        If this company was honest, the best application would be for super capacitors to be installed in homes or commercial buildings.  Then one would be able to buy power at the low late night rate and use it during the day when electricity cost much more.  Or power companies would use larger versions of super capacitors to smooth out the electric load thus reducing the need for expensive peaker power plants.  Both application have the advantage of being stationary where protective shielding and cooling could be better deployed to increase safety.

        Han Ooi

        From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Jim & Janet
        Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:49 AM
        To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
        Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

        For what it's worth, the parent company has some impressive venture capital backing them. That's not to say the VCs are always right but those with a far better than average success rate, only a handfull,  do demand more respect and attention.

        The article was in the Fort Worth Star Telegram as well.

        Jim Duncan

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:01 AM

        Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

        I think the issue with Zenn is that even with the new ultracapacitors from
        EEstor, they're still selling low-speed vehicles. While it's a great idea in
        theory, how many people are really going to be willing to shell out the $$$
        for a car that they can only drive in their neighborhood- -especially when
        getting to the grocery store (for instance) generally means getting on a
        street like Chimney Rock or Bellfort (to name a couple in my area) where the
        traffic is doing 45-50MPH most of the time?

        Now, EEstor, on the other hand, may be revolutionary. I don't think they'll
        take Zenn with them, though, unless Zenn branches out into full-speed cars.

        Paul

        11:28am, chasmauch@aol. com wrote:

        > Very interesting article in the Chronicle today (see first link below) about
        > Zenn Motor Company, a Canadian electric car company that has licensed the
        > new invention. It will be revolutionary (if it works). There are sceptics and
        > its a long shot but if it does work this company would seem to have pretty
        > fantastic prospects. Possibly another Microsoft, AOL, or Amazon?
        >
        > So just for kicks I went to their website (second link below) and watched
        > the video about the little electric cars they are making (it does not mention
        > the new technology). There is a link to the Toronto stock exchange where it is
        > listed. It's symbol is ZNNMF and it's pretty cheap so I put in an order with
        > Fidelity for 100 shares. It immediately filled at $3.4313. I was willing to
        > gamble that much almost sight unseen to see if it could be bought in this
        > country - turns out it can be.
        >
        > Clearly the risk (but also potential reward) is pretty great. Did I just
        > blow $343? Does anyone know any more about this and can help me do some real due
        > diligence?
        >
        > _http://www.chron. com/disp/ story.mpl/ business/ 5104667.html_
        > (http://www.chron. com/disp/ story.mpl/ business/ 5104667.html)
        >
        > _http://www.zenncars .com/_ (http://www.zenncars .com/)
        >
        >
        >
        > ************ ********* ********* ******** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
        > http://discover. aol.com/memed/ aolcom30tour
        >

        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
        "My parents just came back from a planet where the dominant lifeform
        had no bilateral symmetry, and all I got was this stupid F-Shirt."
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

        -----11005 days until retirement!- ----

      • Ooi, Han S [NTK]
        Potential and yet they are putting it in cars first? If this was for real we d be hearing about a power company using this tech first and not Zenn Motors
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 4, 2007
        • 0 Attachment

          “Potential” and yet they are putting it in cars first?  If this was for real we’d be hearing about a power company using this tech first and not Zenn Motors who has stock to sell.

           

          This has all the hallmarks of an Ed Kramer posting.

           

          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim & Janet
          Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:16 PM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

           

          Han wrote:

          Or power companies would use larger versions of super capacitors to smooth out the electric load thus reducing the need for expensive peak power plants.

           

          Already a number of utilities have constructed huge battery banks to store power for use during short, critical peak load periods. Situated in specific locations to address heavy localized loads seems to be just enough "distributed generation" to get past the critical demand.

          Also the article in the FWST (I didn't read the Houston version) stated the potential for a stationary PV power storage device was another goal of the technology. Cap output would work perfectly for short surges like when the air conditioner compressor and fan kicks on and overnight.

          Jim Duncan

           

           

          ----- Original Message -----

          Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 1:42 PM

          Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

           

          I would say this is nothing more than a pump and dump stock scam PR piece.  The fact that the stock of Zenn lists on the Toronto exchange only further confirms my suspicions.  The Toronto Exchange has a reputation of being like the Pink Sheets.

          Putting super capacitors in cars would be the very worst application possible, if they even exist (which they don’t).  Regular capacitors leak charge; a capacitor of this level of capacity’s charge leakage would produce some serious heat.  Also, for a super capacitor to exist, one needs a near perfect insulator that would stay as such in different temperature ranges. 

          Now consider such a capacitor really storing so much energy in a car.  What happens when the car gets hit and the capacitor gets compromised?  The whole car would explode like a thermite bomb when the capacitor short circuits; such an explosion may produce enough heat to melt the concrete the car happens to be riding on.

          To give some background info, a few years back, some Taiwanese manufacturers stole the design from the Japanese of a high capacity capacitor for computer motherboards.  The problem was the Taiwanese didn’t get all the info and manufactured a bunch of defective knockoffs.  Those defective knockoffs had the unfortunate tendency to overheat and leak or explode on the Taiwanese computer motherboards that used them.

          If this company was honest, the best application would be for super capacitors to be installed in homes or commercial buildings.  Then one would be able to buy power at the low late night rate and use it during the day when electricity cost much more.  Or power companies would use larger versions of super capacitors to smooth out the electric load thus reducing the need for expensive peaker power plants.  Both application have the advantage of being stationary where protective shielding and cooling could be better deployed to increase safety.

          Han Ooi

          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim & Janet
          Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:49 AM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

          For what it's worth, the parent company has some impressive venture capital backing them. That's not to say the VCs are always right but those with a far better than average success rate, only a handfull,  do demand more respect and attention.

          The article was in the Fort Worth Star Telegram as well.

          Jim Duncan

          ----- Original Message -----

          Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:01 AM

          Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

          I think the issue with Zenn is that even with the new ultracapacitors from
          EEstor, they're still selling low-speed vehicles. While it's a great idea in
          theory, how many people are really going to be willing to shell out the $$$
          for a car that they can only drive in their neighborhood--especially when
          getting to the grocery store (for instance) generally means getting on a
          street like Chimney Rock or Bellfort (to name a couple in my area) where the
          traffic is doing 45-50MPH most of the time?

          Now, EEstor, on the other hand, may be revolutionary. I don't think they'll
          take Zenn with them, though, unless Zenn branches out into full-speed cars.

          Paul

          11:28am, chasmauch@... wrote:

          > Very interesting article in the Chronicle today (see first link below) about
          > Zenn Motor Company, a Canadian electric car company that has licensed the
          > new invention. It will be revolutionary (if it works). There are sceptics and
          > its a long shot but if it does work this company would seem to have pretty
          > fantastic prospects. Possibly another Microsoft, AOL, or Amazon?
          >
          > So just for kicks I went to their website (second link below) and watched
          > the video about the little electric cars they are making (it does not mention
          > the new technology). There is a link to the Toronto stock exchange where it is
          > listed. It's symbol is ZNNMF and it's pretty cheap so I put in an order with
          > Fidelity for 100 shares. It immediately filled at $3.4313. I was willing to
          > gamble that much almost sight unseen to see if it could be bought in this
          > country - turns out it can be.
          >
          > Clearly the risk (but also potential reward) is pretty great. Did I just
          > blow $343? Does anyone know any more about this and can help me do some real due
          > diligence?
          >
          > _http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/5104667.html_
          > (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/5104667.html)
          >
          > _http://www.zenncars.com/_ (http://www.zenncars.com/)
          >
          >
          >
          > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
          > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
          >

          ----------------------------------------------------------
          "My parents just came back from a planet where the dominant lifeform
          had no bilateral symmetry, and all I got was this stupid F-Shirt."
          ----------------------------------------------------------

          -----11005 days until retirement!-----

        • Jim & Janet
          Sounds like these guys are taking the same learning curve the hydrogen fuel cell industry followed. They tried to develop a fuel cell for cars but ended up
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 4, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Sounds like these guys are taking the same learning curve the hydrogen fuel cell industry followed. They tried to develop a fuel cell for cars but ended up finding that it was much cheaper and easier to power cars from batteries and build the fuel cells stationary to charge the batteries. The biggest market potential is not always the most profitable.
            Jim
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:23 PM
            Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

            “Potential” and yet they are putting it in cars first?  If this was for real we’d be hearing about a power company using this tech first and not Zenn Motors who has stock to sell.

            This has all the hallmarks of an Ed Kramer posting.

            From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Jim & Janet
            Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:16 PM
            To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
            Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

            Han wrote:

            Or power companies would use larger versions of super capacitors to smooth out the electric load thus reducing the need for expensive peak power plants.

            Already a number of utilities have constructed huge battery banks to store power for use during short, critical peak load periods. Situated in specific locations to address heavy localized loads seems to be just enough "distributed generation" to get past the critical demand.

            Also the article in the FWST (I didn't read the Houston version) stated the potential for a stationary PV power storage device was another goal of the technology. Cap output would work perfectly for short surges like when the air conditioner compressor and fan kicks on and overnight.

            Jim Duncan

            ----- Original Message -----

            Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 1:42 PM

            Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

            I would say this is nothing more than a pump and dump stock scam PR piece.  The fact that the stock of Zenn lists on the Toronto exchange only further confirms my suspicions.  The Toronto Exchange has a reputation of being like the Pink Sheets.

            Putting super capacitors in cars would be the very worst application possible, if they even exist (which they don’t).  Regular capacitors leak charge; a capacitor of this level of capacity’s charge leakage would produce some serious heat.  Also, for a super capacitor to exist, one needs a near perfect insulator that would stay as such in different temperature ranges. 

            Now consider such a capacitor really storing so much energy in a car.  What happens when the car gets hit and the capacitor gets compromised?  The whole car would explode like a thermite bomb when the capacitor short circuits; such an explosion may produce enough heat to melt the concrete the car happens to be riding on.

            To give some background info, a few years back, some Taiwanese manufacturers stole the design from the Japanese of a high capacity capacitor for computer motherboards.  The problem was the Taiwanese didn’t get all the info and manufactured a bunch of defective knockoffs.  Those defective knockoffs had the unfortunate tendency to overheat and leak or explode on the Taiwanese computer motherboards that used them.

            If this company was honest, the best application would be for super capacitors to be installed in homes or commercial buildings.  Then one would be able to buy power at the low late night rate and use it during the day when electricity cost much more.  Or power companies would use larger versions of super capacitors to smooth out the electric load thus reducing the need for expensive peaker power plants.  Both application have the advantage of being stationary where protective shielding and cooling could be better deployed to increase safety.

            Han Ooi

            From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Jim & Janet
            Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:49 AM
            To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
            Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

            For what it's worth, the parent company has some impressive venture capital backing them. That's not to say the VCs are always right but those with a far better than average success rate, only a handfull,  do demand more respect and attention.

            The article was in the Fort Worth Star Telegram as well.

            Jim Duncan

            ----- Original Message -----

            Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:01 AM

            Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

            I think the issue with Zenn is that even with the new ultracapacitors from
            EEstor, they're still selling low-speed vehicles. While it's a great idea in
            theory, how many people are really going to be willing to shell out the $$$
            for a car that they can only drive in their neighborhood- -especially when
            getting to the grocery store (for instance) generally means getting on a
            street like Chimney Rock or Bellfort (to name a couple in my area) where the
            traffic is doing 45-50MPH most of the time?

            Now, EEstor, on the other hand, may be revolutionary. I don't think they'll
            take Zenn with them, though, unless Zenn branches out into full-speed cars.

            Paul

            11:28am, chasmauch@aol. com wrote:

            > Very interesting article in the Chronicle today (see first link below) about
            > Zenn Motor Company, a Canadian electric car company that has licensed the
            > new invention. It will be revolutionary (if it works). There are sceptics and
            > its a long shot but if it does work this company would seem to have pretty
            > fantastic prospects. Possibly another Microsoft, AOL, or Amazon?
            >
            > So just for kicks I went to their website (second link below) and watched
            > the video about the little electric cars they are making (it does not mention
            > the new technology). There is a link to the Toronto stock exchange where it is
            > listed. It's symbol is ZNNMF and it's pretty cheap so I put in an order with
            > Fidelity for 100 shares. It immediately filled at $3.4313. I was willing to
            > gamble that much almost sight unseen to see if it could be bought in this
            > country - turns out it can be.
            >
            > Clearly the risk (but also potential reward) is pretty great. Did I just
            > blow $343? Does anyone know any more about this and can help me do some real due
            > diligence?
            >
            > _http://www.chron. com/disp/ story.mpl/ business/ 5104667.html_
            > (http://www.chron. com/disp/ story.mpl/ business/ 5104667.html)
            >
            > _http://www.zenncars .com/_ (http://www.zenncars .com/)
            >
            >
            >
            > ************ ********* ********* ******** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
            > http://discover. aol.com/memed/ aolcom30tour
            >

            ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
            "My parents just came back from a planet where the dominant lifeform
            had no bilateral symmetry, and all I got was this stupid F-Shirt."
            ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

            -----11005 days until retirement!- ----

          • Ooi, Han S [NTK]
            Well, the problem with that analogy is hydrogen fuel cells really do exist. They were used by NASA on the Apollo missions. Super capacitors don t exist.
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 4, 2007
            • 0 Attachment

              Well, the problem with that analogy is hydrogen fuel cells really do exist.  They were used by NASA on the Apollo missions.  Super capacitors don’t exist.  They are more of a theoretical ideal in physics and electrical engineering.

               

              And quite frankly, the technology to build super capacitors are not mature yet.  You would need room temperature super conductors and nano, 3D, mono-isotope diamond technology.  These are all on the frontier of research and much work needs to be done.

              Han

               

              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim & Janet
              Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 4:14 PM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

               

              Sounds like these guys are taking the same learning curve the hydrogen fuel cell industry followed. They tried to develop a fuel cell for cars but ended up finding that it was much cheaper and easier to power cars from batteries and build the fuel cells stationary to charge the batteries. The biggest market potential is not always the most profitable.

              Jim

               

              ----- Original Message -----

              Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:23 PM

              Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

               

              “Potential” and yet they are putting it in cars first?  If this was for real we’d be hearing about a power company using this tech first and not Zenn Motors who has stock to sell.

              This has all the hallmarks of an Ed Kramer posting.

              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim & Janet
              Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:16 PM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

              Han wrote:

              Or power companies would use larger versions of super capacitors to smooth out the electric load thus reducing the need for expensive peak power plants.

              Already a number of utilities have constructed huge battery banks to store power for use during short, critical peak load periods. Situated in specific locations to address heavy localized loads seems to be just enough "distributed generation" to get past the critical demand.

              Also the article in the FWST (I didn't read the Houston version) stated the potential for a stationary PV power storage device was another goal of the technology. Cap output would work perfectly for short surges like when the air conditioner compressor and fan kicks on and overnight.

              Jim Duncan

              ----- Original Message -----

              Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 1:42 PM

              Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

              I would say this is nothing more than a pump and dump stock scam PR piece.  The fact that the stock of Zenn lists on the Toronto exchange only further confirms my suspicions.  The Toronto Exchange has a reputation of being like the Pink Sheets.

              Putting super capacitors in cars would be the very worst application possible, if they even exist (which they don’t).  Regular capacitors leak charge; a capacitor of this level of capacity’s charge leakage would produce some serious heat.  Also, for a super capacitor to exist, one needs a near perfect insulator that would stay as such in different temperature ranges. 

              Now consider such a capacitor really storing so much energy in a car.  What happens when the car gets hit and the capacitor gets compromised?  The whole car would explode like a thermite bomb when the capacitor short circuits; such an explosion may produce enough heat to melt the concrete the car happens to be riding on.

              To give some background info, a few years back, some Taiwanese manufacturers stole the design from the Japanese of a high capacity capacitor for computer motherboards.  The problem was the Taiwanese didn’t get all the info and manufactured a bunch of defective knockoffs.  Those defective knockoffs had the unfortunate tendency to overheat and leak or explode on the Taiwanese computer motherboards that used them.

              If this company was honest, the best application would be for super capacitors to be installed in homes or commercial buildings.  Then one would be able to buy power at the low late night rate and use it during the day when electricity cost much more.  Or power companies would use larger versions of super capacitors to smooth out the electric load thus reducing the need for expensive peaker power plants.  Both application have the advantage of being stationary where protective shielding and cooling could be better deployed to increase safety.

              Han Ooi

              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim & Janet
              Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:49 AM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

              For what it's worth, the parent company has some impressive venture capital backing them. That's not to say the VCs are always right but those with a far better than average success rate, only a handfull,  do demand more respect and attention.

              The article was in the Fort Worth Star Telegram as well.

              Jim Duncan

              ----- Original Message -----

              Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:01 AM

              Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

              I think the issue with Zenn is that even with the new ultracapacitors from
              EEstor, they're still selling low-speed vehicles. While it's a great idea in
              theory, how many people are really going to be willing to shell out the $$$
              for a car that they can only drive in their neighborhood--especially when
              getting to the grocery store (for instance) generally means getting on a
              street like Chimney Rock or Bellfort (to name a couple in my area) where the
              traffic is doing 45-50MPH most of the time?

              Now, EEstor, on the other hand, may be revolutionary. I don't think they'll
              take Zenn with them, though, unless Zenn branches out into full-speed cars.

              Paul

              11:28am, chasmauch@... wrote:

              > Very interesting article in the Chronicle today (see first link below) about
              > Zenn Motor Company, a Canadian electric car company that has licensed the
              > new invention. It will be revolutionary (if it works). There are sceptics and
              > its a long shot but if it does work this company would seem to have pretty
              > fantastic prospects. Possibly another Microsoft, AOL, or Amazon?
              >
              > So just for kicks I went to their website (second link below) and watched
              > the video about the little electric cars they are making (it does not mention
              > the new technology). There is a link to the Toronto stock exchange where it is
              > listed. It's symbol is ZNNMF and it's pretty cheap so I put in an order with
              > Fidelity for 100 shares. It immediately filled at $3.4313. I was willing to
              > gamble that much almost sight unseen to see if it could be bought in this
              > country - turns out it can be.
              >
              > Clearly the risk (but also potential reward) is pretty great. Did I just
              > blow $343? Does anyone know any more about this and can help me do some real due
              > diligence?
              >
              > _http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/5104667.html_
              > (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/5104667.html)
              >
              > _http://www.zenncars.com/_ (http://www.zenncars.com/)
              >
              >
              >
              > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
              > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
              >

              ----------------------------------------------------------
              "My parents just came back from a planet where the dominant lifeform
              had no bilateral symmetry, and all I got was this stupid F-Shirt."
              ----------------------------------------------------------

              -----11005 days until retirement!-----

            • Paul Archer
              ... Just out of curiousity, Han, what is your background in regards to this subject matter, or where are you getting your information? I ve been following this
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 4, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                4:36pm, Ooi, Han S [NTK] wrote:

                > Well, the problem with that analogy is hydrogen fuel cells really do exist. They were used by NASA on the Apollo missions. Super capacitors don't exist. They are more of a theoretical ideal in physics and electrical engineering.
                >
                >
                >
                > And quite frankly, the technology to build super capacitors are not mature yet. You would need room temperature super conductors and nano, 3D, mono-isotope diamond technology. These are all on the frontier of research and much work needs to be done.
                >
                > Han
                >
                >
                Just out of curiousity, Han, what is your background in regards to this
                subject matter, or where are you getting your information?
                I've been following this issue of ultracapacitors for a while, and have
                never heard mention of the need for superconductors, or 3D mono-isotope
                anything.
                (BTW, supercapacitors exist. Ultracapacitors (caps with a power density
                greater than a battery) are the issue at hand.)

                Paul
              • Bashir Syed
                Paul: You are wrong to state that Super Capacitors don t exist. I have used them in my RADIATION reasearch while I was supporting NASA/JSC s SR&QA Division.
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 4, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Paul:
                  You are wrong to state that Super Capacitors don't exist. I have used them in my RADIATION reasearch while I was supporting NASA/JSC's SR&QA Division. Our research was collaborated by Prairie View A&M University's Center for Applied Radiation Research and funded by NASA/JSC's SR&C Advanced Technology Group. The units we used were manufactured by Maxwell Industries, and since that time (between 2000 and 2003) Japanese Industry took the ball and ran with it. There is a lot of research going on Super Capacitors for Energy Storage in Japan. Maxwell also published APPLICATION NOTES on their products, which one might be able to obtain if the company has not been bought up by some other Conglomerate as it usually happens these days.
                   
                  Bashir A. Syed
                  Retired Aerospace Physicist
                  Senior Member International Solar Energy Society, & Member ASES
                  VP, R&D
                  Alt-EnergyTech, Inc.
                  Houston, TX 77058
                  Biz: 281-333-9889.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 5:08 PM
                  Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

                  4:36pm, Ooi, Han S [NTK] wrote:

                  > Well, the problem with that analogy is hydrogen fuel cells really do exist. They were used by NASA on the Apollo missions. Super capacitors don't exist. They are more of a theoretical ideal in physics and electrical engineering.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > And quite frankly, the technology to build super capacitors are not mature yet. You would need room temperature super conductors and nano, 3D, mono-isotope diamond technology. These are all on the frontier of research and much work needs to be done.
                  >
                  > Han
                  >
                  >
                  Just out of curiousity, Han, what is your background in regards to this
                  subject matter, or where are you getting your information?
                  I've been following this issue of ultracapacitors for a while, and have
                  never heard mention of the need for superconductors, or 3D mono-isotope
                  anything.
                  (BTW, supercapacitors exist. Ultracapacitors (caps with a power density
                  greater than a battery) are the issue at hand.)

                  Paul

                • Paul Archer
                  Perhaps we (I?) have our terms confused. Define super capacitors. Paul ... The wonder of all the Internet security problems is that they are continually
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 4, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Perhaps we (I?) have our terms confused. Define super capacitors.

                    Paul

                    5:51pm, Bashir Syed wrote:

                    > Paul:
                    > You are wrong to state that Super Capacitors don't exist. I have used them in my RADIATION reasearch while I was supporting NASA/JSC's SR&QA Division. Our research was collaborated by Prairie View A&M University's Center for Applied Radiation Research and funded by NASA/JSC's SR&C Advanced Technology Group. The units we used were manufactured by Maxwell Industries, and since that time (between 2000 and 2003) Japanese Industry took the ball and ran with it. There is a lot of research going on Super Capacitors for Energy Storage in Japan. Maxwell also published APPLICATION NOTES on their products, which one might be able to obtain if the company has not been bought up by some other Conglomerate as it usually happens these days.
                    >
                    > Bashir A. Syed
                    > Retired Aerospace Physicist
                    > Senior Member International Solar Energy Society, & Member ASES
                    > VP, R&D
                    > Alt-EnergyTech, Inc.
                    > Houston, TX 77058
                    > Biz: 281-333-9889.
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Paul Archer
                    > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 5:08 PM
                    > Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?
                    >
                    >
                    > 4:36pm, Ooi, Han S [NTK] wrote:
                    >
                    > > Well, the problem with that analogy is hydrogen fuel cells really do exist. They were used by NASA on the Apollo missions. Super capacitors don't exist. They are more of a theoretical ideal in physics and electrical engineering.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > And quite frankly, the technology to build super capacitors are not mature yet. You would need room temperature super conductors and nano, 3D, mono-isotope diamond technology. These are all on the frontier of research and much work needs to be done.
                    > >
                    > > Han
                    > >
                    > >
                    > Just out of curiousity, Han, what is your background in regards to this
                    > subject matter, or where are you getting your information?
                    > I've been following this issue of ultracapacitors for a while, and have
                    > never heard mention of the need for superconductors, or 3D mono-isotope
                    > anything.
                    > (BTW, supercapacitors exist. Ultracapacitors (caps with a power density
                    > greater than a battery) are the issue at hand.)
                    >
                    > Paul
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    ----------------------------------------------------------------
                    The wonder of all the Internet security problems is that they
                    are continually labeled as 'e-mail viruses' or 'Internet worms,'
                    rather than the more correct designation of 'Windows viruses' or
                    'Microsoft Outlook viruses.'" --Robert X. Cringely
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------

                    -----11005 days until retirement!-----
                  • David Power
                    They have been around for a while, not cheep. I have one in my car and one to play with, a medium sized one by today s standards, only 50f, but when you
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 4, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment

                      They have been around for a while, not cheep. I have one in my car and one to play with, a medium sized one by today’s standards, only 50f, but when you consider most capacitors are mfd  a 50 farad cap has a bunch of storage. It makes me nervous if there is ever a short. It does make the 12v power rail absolutely ridged.

                       

                      Clipped from the wiki

                       

                      “One of the earliest commercial-grade electronic devices powered by a single SuperCapacitor (a high-quality audio mixer) was described in the milestone article "Single capacitor powers audio mixer" authored by Aleksandr Belousov (EDN, March 14, 1997) [2]. A carefully designed circuit, which utilized micro-power amplifiers and farad-range supercapacitor (SuperCap or DynaCap), was capable of running for more than 2 hours on a single charge. It also demonstrated the ability to be charged very fast (in about ten seconds) compared to the hours required for traditional rechargeable batteries.”

                       

                      The new caps are using a very rigid and brittle ceramic material which makes it a challenge to use them in a mobile situation. Packaging and stabilization is the key. If a LiION can burst into flames who wants the equivalent of a tank full of gas of energy going poof in a second or so.

                       

                       

                      David

                      Perhaps we (I?) have our terms confused. Define super capacitors.

                      Paul

                      5:51pm, Bashir Syed wrote:

                      > Paul:
                      > You are wrong to state that Super Capacitors don't exist. I have used them
                      in my RADIATION reasearch while I was supporting NASA/JSC's SR&QA Division. Our research was collaborated by Prairie View A&M University 's Center for Applied Radiation Research and funded by NASA/JSC's SR&C Advanced Technology Group. The units we used were manufactured by Maxwell Industries, and since that time (between 2000 and 2003) Japanese Industry took the ball and ran with it. There is a lot of research going on Super Capacitors for Energy Storage in Japan . Maxwell also published APPLICATION NOTES on their products, which one might be able to obtain if the company has not been bought up by some other Conglomerate as it usually happens these days.
                      >
                      > Bashir A. Syed
                      > Retired Aerospace Physicist
                      > Senior Member International Solar Energy Society, & Member ASES
                      > VP, R&D
                      > Alt-EnergyTech, Inc.
                      > Houston ,
                      w:st="on">TX 77058
                      > Biz: 281-333-9889.
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Paul Archer
                      > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                      > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 5:08 PM
                      > Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for
                      electric cars?
                      >
                      >
                      > 4:36pm, Ooi, Han S [NTK] wrote:
                      >
                      > > Well, the problem with that analogy is hydrogen fuel cells really do
                      exist. They were used by NASA on the Apollo missions. Super capacitors don't exist. They are more of a theoretical ideal in physics and electrical engineering.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > And quite frankly, the technology to build super capacitors are not
                      mature yet. You would need room temperature super conductors and nano, 3D, mono-isotope diamond technology. These are all on the frontier of research and much work needs to be done.
                      > >
                      > > Han
                      > >
                      > >
                      > Just out of curiousity, Han, what is your background in regards to this
                      > subject matter, or where are you getting your information?
                      > I've been following this issue of ultracapacitors for a while, and have
                      > never heard mention of the need for superconductors, or 3D mono-isotope
                      > anything.
                      > (BTW, supercapacitors exist. Ultracapacitors (caps with a power density
                      > greater than a battery) are the issue at hand.)
                      >
                      > Paul
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                      The wonder of all the Internet security problems is that they
                      are continually labeled as 'e-mail viruses' or 'Internet worms,'
                      rather than the more correct designation of 'Windows viruses' or
                      'Microsoft Outlook viruses.'" --Robert X. Cringely
                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                      -----11005 days until retirement!- ----

                    • Solar Energy
                      Are there any events coming up on renewable energy? Thanks, Ahmad ... Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos &
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 4, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Are there any events coming up on renewable energy?

                        Thanks,

                        Ahmad


                        Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
                      • Bashir Syed
                        It is a capacitor which has a tremendous charge density in a smaller space, and a small unit having a size of a conventional Electrolytic Capacitor has
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 4, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          It is a capacitor which has a tremendous charge density in a smaller space, and a small unit having a size of a conventional Electrolytic Capacitor has capacitance of the order of several FARADS in stead of Micro-Farads. Such capacitors are used in hand-cranked LED Flahlights, and the other which requires vigorous shaking of a magnet in a cylindrical coil which generates induced EMF. This induced EMF is rectified and stored in a Super Capacitor to light a high luminosoty LED in flashlight which requires no batteries. Such super-capacitors are being used in conjunction with batteries in Electric Trams in Europe.  
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 7:34 PM
                          Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

                          Perhaps we (I?) have our terms confused. Define super capacitors.

                          Paul

                          5:51pm, Bashir Syed wrote:

                          > Paul:
                          > You are wrong to state that Super Capacitors don't exist. I have used them in my RADIATION reasearch while I was supporting NASA/JSC's SR&QA Division. Our research was collaborated by Prairie View A&M University's Center for Applied Radiation Research and funded by NASA/JSC's SR&C Advanced Technology Group. The units we used were manufactured by Maxwell Industries, and since that time (between 2000 and 2003) Japanese Industry took the ball and ran with it. There is a lot of research going on Super Capacitors for Energy Storage in Japan. Maxwell also published APPLICATION NOTES on their products, which one might be able to obtain if the company has not been bought up by some other Conglomerate as it usually happens these days.
                          >
                          > Bashir A. Syed
                          > Retired Aerospace Physicist
                          > Senior Member International Solar Energy Society, & Member ASES
                          > VP, R&D
                          > Alt-EnergyTech, Inc.
                          > Houston, TX 77058
                          > Biz: 281-333-9889.
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Paul Archer
                          > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                          > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 5:08 PM
                          > Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?
                          >
                          >
                          > 4:36pm, Ooi, Han S [NTK] wrote:
                          >
                          > > Well, the problem with that analogy is hydrogen fuel cells really do exist. They were used by NASA on the Apollo missions. Super capacitors don't exist. They are more of a theoretical ideal in physics and electrical engineering.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > And quite frankly, the technology to build super capacitors are not mature yet. You would need room temperature super conductors and nano, 3D, mono-isotope diamond technology. These are all on the frontier of research and much work needs to be done.
                          > >
                          > > Han
                          > >
                          > >
                          > Just out of curiousity, Han, what is your background in regards to this
                          > subject matter, or where are you getting your information?
                          > I've been following this issue of ultracapacitors for a while, and have
                          > never heard mention of the need for superconductors, or 3D mono-isotope
                          > anything.
                          > (BTW, supercapacitors exist. Ultracapacitors (caps with a power density
                          > greater than a battery) are the issue at hand.)
                          >
                          > Paul
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                          The wonder of all the Internet security problems is that they
                          are continually labeled as 'e-mail viruses' or 'Internet worms,'
                          rather than the more correct designation of 'Windows viruses' or
                          'Microsoft Outlook viruses.'" --Robert X. Cringely
                          ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                          -----11005 days until retirement!- ----

                        • Bashir Syed
                          Yes! 8th Annual Renewable Roundup & Green Living Fair in downtown Fredericksburg, TX during Sept. 28-30, 2007. See detaoils at www.TheRoundup .org Bashir A.
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 4, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Yes! 8th Annual Renewable Roundup & Green Living Fair in downtown Fredericksburg, TX during Sept. 28-30, 2007. See detaoils at www.TheRoundup .org
                             
                            Bashir A. Syed
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:59 PM
                            Subject: [hreg] Any Events coming up?

                            Are there any events coming up on renewable energy?

                            Thanks,

                            Ahmad


                            Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more.

                          • Paul Archer
                            If what you are describing is a super capacitor, then what EEstor is (claiming to be) developing is an ultra capacitor--one with a density greater than a
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 5, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              If what you are describing is a super capacitor, then what EEstor is
                              (claiming to be) developing is an ultra capacitor--one with a density
                              greater than a battery, and with similar self-discharge characteristics. In
                              a nutshell, a capacitor with the qualities and capacities to allow it to
                              replace the batteries in an electric vehicle.

                              Paul


                              Yesterday, Bashir Syed wrote:

                              > It is a capacitor which has a tremendous charge density in a smaller space, and a small unit having a size of a conventional Electrolytic Capacitor has capacitance of the order of several FARADS in stead of Micro-Farads. Such capacitors are used in hand-cranked LED Flahlights, and the other which requires vigorous shaking of a magnet in a cylindrical coil which generates induced EMF. This induced EMF is rectified and stored in a Super Capacitor to light a high luminosoty LED in flashlight which requires no batteries. Such super-capacitors are being used in conjunction with batteries in Electric Trams in Europe.
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Paul Archer
                              > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 7:34 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?
                              >
                              >
                              > Perhaps we (I?) have our terms confused. Define super capacitors.
                              >
                              > Paul
                              >
                              > 5:51pm, Bashir Syed wrote:
                              >
                              > > Paul:
                              > > You are wrong to state that Super Capacitors don't exist. I have used them in my RADIATION reasearch while I was supporting NASA/JSC's SR&QA Division. Our research was collaborated by Prairie View A&M University's Center for Applied Radiation Research and funded by NASA/JSC's SR&C Advanced Technology Group. The units we used were manufactured by Maxwell Industries, and since that time (between 2000 and 2003) Japanese Industry took the ball and ran with it. There is a lot of research going on Super Capacitors for Energy Storage in Japan. Maxwell also published APPLICATION NOTES on their products, which one might be able to obtain if the company has not been bought up by some other Conglomerate as it usually happens these days.
                              > >
                              > > Bashir A. Syed
                              > > Retired Aerospace Physicist
                              > > Senior Member International Solar Energy Society, & Member ASES
                              > > VP, R&D
                              > > Alt-EnergyTech, Inc.
                              > > Houston, TX 77058
                              > > Biz: 281-333-9889.
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: Paul Archer
                              > > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 5:08 PM
                              > > Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > 4:36pm, Ooi, Han S [NTK] wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Well, the problem with that analogy is hydrogen fuel cells really do exist. They were used by NASA on the Apollo missions. Super capacitors don't exist. They are more of a theoretical ideal in physics and electrical engineering.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > And quite frankly, the technology to build super capacitors are not mature yet. You would need room temperature super conductors and nano, 3D, mono-isotope diamond technology. These are all on the frontier of research and much work needs to be done.
                              > > >
                              > > > Han
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > Just out of curiousity, Han, what is your background in regards to this
                              > > subject matter, or where are you getting your information?
                              > > I've been following this issue of ultracapacitors for a while, and have
                              > > never heard mention of the need for superconductors, or 3D mono-isotope
                              > > anything.
                              > > (BTW, supercapacitors exist. Ultracapacitors (caps with a power density
                              > > greater than a battery) are the issue at hand.)
                              > >
                              > > Paul
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > ----------------------------------------------------------
                              > The wonder of all the Internet security problems is that they
                              > are continually labeled as 'e-mail viruses' or 'Internet worms,'
                              > rather than the more correct designation of 'Windows viruses' or
                              > 'Microsoft Outlook viruses.'" --Robert X. Cringely
                              > ----------------------------------------------------------
                              >
                              > -----11005 days until retirement!-----
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my religion. I could
                              never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma.
                              ---------------------- Abraham Lincoln----------------------------------

                              -----11004 days until retirement!-----
                            • JOHN GARDNER
                              Take a look at the TXSES calendar of events. www.txses.org ... From: Solar Energy To: hreg@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 4,
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 5, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Take a look at the TXSES calendar of events.
                                 


                                 
                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Solar Energy <WhySolar@...>
                                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2007 10:59:50 PM
                                Subject: [hreg] Any Events coming up?

                                Are there any events coming up on renewable energy?

                                Thanks,

                                Ahmad


                                Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more.


                              • Ooi, Han S [NTK]
                                Perhaps my definition of a supercapacitor is different from others. I have a EE degree. Back in the days of EE class, the prof defined a supercapacitor as
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 5, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  Perhaps my definition of a “supercapacitor” is different from others.  I have a EE degree.  Back in the days of EE class, the prof defined a supercapacitor as one that can hold an immense amount of charge with no current leakage.  To do that, it needs an immense (near infinite) electrode surface area and the material keeping the electrode apart has infinite resistance.  The near infinite resistance also prevents the capacitor from discharging by itself.

                                   

                                  The supercapacitors we have today I would classify as very high capacity.  They certainly hold a lot of charge but they are far from the textbook ideal.  I guess the textbook definition got used a bit loosely; I do note on the Maxwell website, they refer to their capacitor as “ultracapacitors” so they at least did not violate the definition of “supercapacitor” as I learned it.

                                   

                                  I referred to diamond desposition nanotechnology and superconductors because that is what is needed to create a safe capacitor that is close to the textbook ideal.  Superconductor electrodes would have no resistance, the diamond capacitor would be build up in layers with each layer either doped to be a superconductor or a super resistance material.  All this build atomic layer by atomic layer so the surface area would be immense.

                                   

                                  I have used high capacity capacitors back in my job designing machines for factories.  We had this machine that cut cardboard into distinct shapes and its roller cutters needed to be able to change speed very quickly repeatedly.  The most energy efficient way was to use capacitors which would store the steel rollers’ energy to slow them down and discharge to speed them up.

                                   

                                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Power
                                  Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:03 PM
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

                                   

                                  They have been around for a while, not cheep. I have one in my car and one to play with, a medium sized one by today’s standards, only 50f, but when you consider most capacitors are mfd  a 50 farad cap has a bunch of storage. It makes me nervous if there is ever a short. It does make the 12v power rail absolutely ridged.

                                   

                                  Clipped from the wiki

                                   

                                  “One of the earliest commercial-grade electronic devices powered by a single SuperCapacitor (a high-quality audio mixer) was described in the milestone article "Single capacitor powers audio mixer" authored by Aleksandr Belousov (EDN, March 14, 1997) [2]. A carefully designed circuit, which utilized micro-power amplifiers and farad-range supercapacitor (SuperCap or DynaCap), was capable of running for more than 2 hours on a single charge. It also demonstrated the ability to be charged very fast (in about ten seconds) compared to the hours required for traditional rechargeable batteries.”

                                   

                                  The new caps are using a very rigid and brittle ceramic material which makes it a challenge to use them in a mobile situation. Packaging and stabilization is the key. If a LiION can burst into flames who wants the equivalent of a tank full of gas of energy going poof in a second or so.

                                   

                                   

                                  David

                                  Perhaps we (I?) have our terms confused. Define super capacitors.

                                  Paul

                                  5:51pm, Bashir Syed wrote:

                                  > Paul:
                                  > You are wrong to state that Super Capacitors don't exist. I have used them
                                  in my RADIATION reasearch while I was supporting NASA/JSC's SR&QA Division. Our research was collaborated by Prairie View A&M University's Center for Applied Radiation Research and funded by NASA/JSC's SR&C Advanced Technology Group. The units we used were manufactured by Maxwell Industries, and since that time (between 2000 and 2003) Japanese Industry took the ball and ran with it. There is a lot of research going on Super Capacitors for Energy Storage in Japan. Maxwell also published APPLICATION NOTES on their products, which one might be able to obtain if the company has not been bought up by some other Conglomerate as it usually happens these days.
                                  >
                                  > Bashir A. Syed
                                  > Retired Aerospace Physicist
                                  > Senior Member International Solar Energy Society, & Member ASES
                                  > VP, R&D
                                  > Alt-EnergyTech, Inc.
                                  > Houston, TX 77058
                                  > Biz: 281-333-9889.
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Paul Archer
                                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 5:08 PM
                                  > Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for
                                  electric cars?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > 4:36pm, Ooi, Han S [NTK] wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Well, the problem with that analogy is hydrogen fuel cells really do
                                  exist. They were used by NASA on the Apollo missions. Super capacitors don't exist. They are more of a theoretical ideal in physics and electrical engineering.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > And quite frankly, the technology to build super capacitors are not
                                  mature yet. You would need room temperature super conductors and nano, 3D, mono-isotope diamond technology. These are all on the frontier of research and much work needs to be done.
                                  > >
                                  > > Han
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > Just out of curiousity, Han, what is your background in regards to this
                                  > subject matter, or where are you getting your information?
                                  > I've been following this issue of ultracapacitors for a while, and have
                                  > never heard mention of the need for superconductors, or 3D mono-isotope
                                  > anything.
                                  > (BTW, supercapacitors exist. Ultracapacitors (caps with a power density
                                  > greater than a battery) are the issue at hand.)
                                  >
                                  > Paul
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  ----------------------------------------------------------
                                  The wonder of all the Internet security problems is that they
                                  are continually labeled as 'e-mail viruses' or 'Internet worms,'
                                  rather than the more correct designation of 'Windows viruses' or
                                  'Microsoft Outlook viruses.'" --Robert X. Cringely
                                  ----------------------------------------------------------

                                  -----11005 days until retirement!-----

                                • Ariel Thomann
                                  There s also ASES; specifically with Solar Tours coming up: http://www.ases.org/tour/ Or EAA s http://www.eaaev.org/eaaevents.html#AltWheels if you re
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                    There's also ASES; specifically with Solar Tours coming up: http://www.ases.org/tour/
                                    Or EAA's http://www.eaaev.org/eaaevents.html#AltWheels if you're inclined to travel.



                                    On Wed, September 5, 2007 09:41 CDT, JOHN GARDNER wrote:



















                                     


                                    Take a look at the TXSES calendar of events.


                                     








                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: Solar Energy com>
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2007 10:59:50 PM
                                    Subject: [hreg] Any Events coming up?


                                    Are there any events coming up on renewable energy?

                                    Thanks,

                                    Ahmad




                                    Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more.

                                     







                                     



















                                     

                                     





                                    Ariel
                                    - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                                    - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                                    ------------------------------------

                                  • Bashir Syed
                                    The basic Physics governs the behavior of a Capacitor, in which the dielectric properties of the medium filling the space between two charged electrodes plays
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 5, 2007
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                                      The basic Physics governs the behavior of a Capacitor, in which the dielectric properties of the medium filling the space between two charged electrodes plays a significant role. One of the electrode in an Ultra Capacitor is made up of spongy carbon, which increases the effective area of this electrode. The dielectric material in this device is an organic gel. Superconductivity has nothing to do with its electrical behavior. Superconductivitivity plays only a role when charge flows through a conductor. In a capacitor Charge is stationary unless there is conductive path internally or externally. What most people tend to forget is that our environment has ionizing radiation both from within the earth (due to the presence of radioactive elements like Uranium, Thorium, Radium, etc.) and from the high energy protons and other heavy elements (like Iron ions), coming towards us in the form of Cosmic rays. High energy protons come from Solar flares and Coronal Mass Ejections (CME) which are responsible for a charged object to lose its charge after a while. Ultra capacitors can hold the charge for quite a while, but due to ionized medium (i.e. dielectric), the charge is effected. But as Maxwell's literature shows that such capacitors are used across a DC source which is frequently turned on and off to opperate a machine (like DC motors, etc. in trams -Europe) The transients are cushioned by the presence of such a device across the power source (such as batteries) and does not cause undue stress upon the source of EMF. Our tests verified the fact that Ionising Radiation (like Cosmic rays and High Energy Solar Protons) as we know, does effect the stored charge in these devices, but very little effect is caused by Gamma radiation.  
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:03 AM
                                      Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

                                      Perhaps my definition of a “supercapacitor” is different from others.  I have a EE degree.  Back in the days of EE class, the prof defined a supercapacitor as one that can hold an immense amount of charge with no current leakage.  To do that, it needs an immense (near infinite) electrode surface area and the material keeping the electrode apart has infinite resistance.  The near infinite resistance also prevents the capacitor from discharging by itself.

                                      The supercapacitors we have today I would classify as very high capacity.  They certainly hold a lot of charge but they are far from the textbook ideal.  I guess the textbook definition got used a bit loosely; I do note on the Maxwell website, they refer to their capacitor as “ultracapacitors” so they at least did not violate the definition of “supercapacitor” as I learned it.

                                      I referred to diamond desposition nanotechnology and superconductors because that is what is needed to create a safe capacitor that is close to the textbook ideal.  Superconductor electrodes would have no resistance, the diamond capacitor would be build up in layers with each layer either doped to be a superconductor or a super resistance material.  All this build atomic layer by atomic layer so the surface area would be immense.

                                      I have used high capacity capacitors back in my job designing machines for factories.  We had this machine that cut cardboard into distinct shapes and its roller cutters needed to be able to change speed very quickly repeatedly.  The most energy efficient way was to use capacitors which would store the steel rollers’ energy to slow them down and discharge to speed them up.

                                      From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of David Power
                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:03 PM
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                      Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?

                                      They have been around for a while, not cheep. I have one in my car and one to play with, a medium sized one by today’s standards, only 50f, but when you consider most capacitors are mfd  a 50 farad cap has a bunch of storage. It makes me nervous if there is ever a short. It does make the 12v power rail absolutely ridged.

                                      Clipped from the wiki

                                      “One of the earliest commercial-grade electronic devices powered by a single SuperCapacitor (a high-quality audio mixer) was described in the milestone article "Single capacitor powers audio mixer" authored by Aleksandr Belousov (EDN, March 14, 1997) [2]. A carefully designed circuit, which utilized micro-power amplifiers and farad-range supercapacitor (SuperCap or DynaCap), was capable of running for more than 2 hours on a single charge. It also demonstrated the ability to be charged very fast (in about ten seconds) compared to the hours required for traditional rechargeable batteries.”

                                      The new caps are using a very rigid and brittle ceramic material which makes it a challenge to use them in a mobile situation. Packaging and stabilization is the key. If a LiION can burst into flames who wants the equivalent of a tank full of gas of energy going poof in a second or so.

                                      David

                                      Perhaps we (I?) have our terms confused. Define super capacitors.

                                      Paul

                                      5:51pm, Bashir Syed wrote:

                                      > Paul:
                                      > You are wrong to state that Super Capacitors don't exist. I have used them in my RADIATION reasearch while I was supporting NASA/JSC's SR&QA Division. Our research was collaborated by Prairie View A&M University's Center for Applied Radiation Research and funded by NASA/JSC's SR&C Advanced Technology Group. The units we used were manufactured by Maxwell Industries, and since that time (between 2000 and 2003) Japanese Industry took the ball and ran with it. There is a lot of research going on Super Capacitors for Energy Storage in Japan. Maxwell also published APPLICATION NOTES on their products, which one might be able to obtain if the company has not been bought up by some other Conglomerate as it usually happens these days.
                                      >
                                      > Bashir A. Syed
                                      > Retired Aerospace Physicist
                                      > Senior Member International Solar Energy Society, & Member ASES
                                      > VP, R&D
                                      > Alt-EnergyTech, Inc.
                                      > Houston, TX 77058
                                      > Biz: 281-333-9889.
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Paul Archer
                                      > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 5:08 PM
                                      > Subject: RE: [hreg] Revolutionary new technology to replace batteries for electric cars?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > 4:36pm, Ooi, Han S [NTK] wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Well, the problem with that analogy is hydrogen fuel cells really do exist. They were used by NASA on the Apollo missions. Super capacitors don't exist. They are more of a theoretical ideal in physics and electrical engineering.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > And quite frankly, the technology to build super capacitors are not mature yet. You would need room temperature super conductors and nano, 3D, mono-isotope diamond technology. These are all on the frontier of research and much work needs to be done.
                                      > >
                                      > > Han
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > Just out of curiousity, Han, what is your background in regards to this
                                      > subject matter, or where are you getting your information?
                                      > I've been following this issue of ultracapacitors for a while, and have
                                      > never heard mention of the need for superconductors, or 3D mono-isotope
                                      > anything.
                                      > (BTW, supercapacitors exist. Ultracapacitors (caps with a power density
                                      > greater than a battery) are the issue at hand.)
                                      >
                                      > Paul
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                      The wonder of all the Internet security problems is that they
                                      are continually labeled as 'e-mail viruses' or 'Internet worms,'
                                      rather than the more correct designation of 'Windows viruses' or
                                      'Microsoft Outlook viruses.'" --Robert X. Cringely
                                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                      -----11005 days until retirement!- ----

                                    • Gary Beck
                                      I have sent the presentation to the emails we had for the class attendees. If you attended but did not receive a copy, please email me. Thanks, Gary Beck,
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 6, 2007
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                                        I have sent the presentation to the emails we had for the class attendees.

                                         

                                        If you attended but did not receive a copy, please email me.

                                         

                                        Thanks,

                                         

                                        Gary Beck, P.E., LEED AP

                                        Eco-Holdings LLC

                                        4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd., Suite 114

                                        Houston, Texas 77025

                                         

                                        Tel: 713-377-4209

                                        Fax: 832-201-5338

                                        Cell: 713-530-1950

                                        www.eco-holdings.com

                                         

                                        “Where Sustainability is Designed”

                                         

                                      • RHANI BABENDURE
                                        I would appreciate receiving the presentation copy even though I was not there. If possible, please send to me as follows: Rhani Sale Babendure
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 6, 2007
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                                                 I would appreciate receiving the presentation copy even though I was not there.  If  possible,  please 
                                           send to me as follows:
                                                                                          Rhani Sale Babendure
                                                                                          2023 Fairway Green     
                                                                                          Kingwood, TX  77339
                                           
                                                                                          281-360-4880 
                                           
                                                  Thank you!    

                                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: eco@...
                                          Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:50:02 -0500
                                          Subject: [hreg] Green Homes Intro Class Presentation Copy

                                          I have sent the presentation to the emails we had for the class attendees.

                                           

                                          If you attended but did not receive a copy, please email me.

                                           

                                          Thanks,

                                           

                                          Gary Beck, P.E., LEED AP

                                          Eco-Holdings LLC

                                          4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd., Suite 114

                                          Houston, Texas 77025

                                           

                                          Tel: 713-377-4209

                                          Fax: 832-201-5338

                                          Cell: 713-530-1950

                                          www.eco-holdings. com

                                           

                                          “Where Sustainability is Designed”

                                           


                                        • Pete J. Carrasquillo
                                          Me too please: Pete J. Carrasquillo 14527 Cottage Timbers Houston, Texas 77044 Pete J. Carrasquillo Remax Suburban 832-969-5685 Direct 281-852-8900 Office
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 6, 2007
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                                            Me too please:

                                             

                                            Pete J. Carrasquillo

                                            14527 Cottage Timbers

                                            Houston, Texas 77044

                                             

                                            Pete J. Carrasquillo

                                            Remax Suburban

                                            832-969-5685 Direct

                                            281-852-8900 Office

                                            832-644-2572 Fax

                                            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RHANI BABENDURE
                                            Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 3:55 PM
                                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: RE: [hreg] Green Homes Intro Class Presentation Copy

                                             

                                                   I would appreciate receiving the presentation copy even though I was not there.  If  possible,  please 
                                             send to me as follows:
                                                                                            Rhani Sale Babendure
                                                                                            2023 Fairway Green     
                                                                                            Kingwood, TX  77339
                                             
                                                                                            281-360-4880 
                                             
                                                    Thank you!    


                                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: eco@...
                                            Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:50:02 -0500
                                            Subject: [hreg] Green Homes Intro Class Presentation Copy

                                            I have sent the presentation to the emails we had for the class attendees.

                                             

                                            If you attended but did not receive a copy, please email me.

                                             

                                            Thanks,

                                             

                                            Gary Beck, P.E., LEED AP

                                            Eco-Holdings LLC

                                            4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd., Suite 114

                                            Houston, Texas 77025

                                             

                                            Tel: 713-377-4209

                                            Fax: 832-201-5338

                                            Cell: 713-530-1950

                                            www.eco-holdings.com

                                             

                                            “Where Sustainability is Designed”

                                             

                                             

                                          • Solar Energy
                                            Thanks to you, Bashir & Gardner, for your reply. Ariel Thomann wrote: There s also ASES; specifically with Solar Tours coming up:
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 6, 2007
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                                              Thanks to you, Bashir & Gardner, for your reply.

                                              Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@...> wrote:

                                              There's also ASES; specifically with Solar Tours coming up: http://www.ases. org/tour/
                                              Or EAA's http://www.eaaev. org/eaaevents. html#AltWheels if you're inclined to travel.



                                              On Wed, September 5, 2007 09:41 CDT, JOHN GARDNER wrote:



















                                               

                                              Take a look at the TXSES calendar of events.


                                               








                                              ----- Original Message ----
                                              From: Solar Energy com>
                                              To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                              Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2007 10:59:50 PM
                                              Subject: [hreg] Any Events coming up?


                                              Are there any events coming up on renewable energy?

                                              Thanks,

                                              Ahmad



                                              Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more.
                                               






                                               


















                                               
                                               




                                              Ariel
                                              - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                                              - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                                              ------------ --------- --------- ------



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