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Re: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

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  • evelyn sardina
    When you have lived in warm weather you know what to do. Open your windows, use fans and shower before you go to bed. When you are not willing to
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 9, 2007
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      When you have lived in warm weather you know what to do.  Open your windows, use fans and shower before you go to bed.  When you are not willing to sweat....using cfl, an automatic thermostat and fans should help greatly. If the air conditioner is the way to go then at least we can try to minimize the use of it. There is a company called solair that has a solar airconditioner but I think one unit only covers about 3 rooms at a time.  Keeping the sun away from the house is probably the best bet. Solar screens and planting trees near windows also helps.  At my permaculture class it was discussed to use trees that shed leaves in the winter to aliviate the cold.  I planted shrubs that grow tall near my windows and trimmed the bottoms to make them look like trees.  I have picture windows on my living and dinning room areas.  My house is like an oven I rather keep the sun away. In the winter just put a sweater on!  Adding a deck with a roof keeps the sun from hitting my windows directly.
      go slow because it takes some money and sweat to make the changes.  I dont mind, I intend to build a house later and all the projects are useful learning tools.  If you would like to learn about how to be more sustianable visit the animal farm in Cat Springs. I grew up in Puerto Rico, as you know we can aclimate to heat but we are very spoiled!
      Welcome, Evelyn

      Henry H Haynes <henryhh@...> wrote:
      Hey Steven:

      I recall about 10 (maybe more?) years ago hearing about a hotel in the Caribbean using solar a/c, but I didn't hear anything more about it.   It seems like we would hear more about it if it were successful.  However, my cynical side makes me wonder if information is being suppressed.  I would also be very interested in more information.  I wonder what effect scale has on such a system.  i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use.  It bothers me to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough to turn it off & sweat).

      Welcome to the group.

      Henry

      Steven M <marzolian@yahoo. com> wrote:
      Greetings, all.

      I was raised in Venezuela, where it's no hotter than Houston but it
      lasts all year round :-). Both there and in Texas, I have often
      thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
      Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof
      and worked better the hotter it got?

      Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
      professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
      subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me
      any easy answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
      especially with our electric rate hikes here in Houston the past
      couple of years.

      Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
      airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
      conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp cooler", but
      there wasn't enough information to understand how it works.

      I once read somewhere that the Houston metro area has the largest
      concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true,
      but it makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and
      it's so hot, that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be
      here. Or would it?

      Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out
      there, but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that
      seem to be available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.

      Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
      powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be
      more practical any time soon?

      Steven Marzuola




      The fish are biting.
      Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

    • Daniel
      Hi Steven, I am in the AC business and unfortunately I have not seen any of the major manufacturers offer a solar powered AC system. The most energy
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 9, 2007
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        Hi Steven,

        I am in the AC business and unfortunately I have not seen any of the major manufacturers offer a solar powered AC system.  The most energy efficiency technology I have seen them use is the variable speed motors and compressors which does significantly reduce the energy consumption of the unit.  You can also check out a product called Permafrost, this product improves the heat transfer of any AC system, allowing the unit to run less to achieve set temperatures.  On average the unit will use 10 - 20% less energy.   You can find more information about the product and case studies at www.PermafrostInfo.com 

         
        Best of luck to you,
         
        Daniel Vaczi
        MVP Mechanical LLC
        832-877-8492

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: "Steven M" <marzolian@...>
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:19:02 -0000
        Subject: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

        Greetings, all.

        I was raised in Venezuela, where it's no hotter than Houston but it
        lasts all year round :-). Both there and in Texas, I have often
        thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
        Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof
        and worked better the hotter it got?

        Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
        professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
        subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me
        any easy answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
        especially with our electric rate hikes here in Houston the past
        couple of years.

        Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
        airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
        conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp cooler", but
        there wasn't enough information to understand how it works.

        I once read somewhere that the Houston metro area has the largest
        concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true,
        but it makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and
        it's so hot, that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be
        here. Or would it?

        Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out
        there, but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that
        seem to be available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.

        Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
        powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be
        more practical any time soon?

        Steven Marzuola

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      • Dans1@PDQ.NET
        I can attest to the use of solar screens. I had a new house built 4 years ago and the first year the Family room and upstairs got real warm in the day time
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 9, 2007
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          I can attest to the use of solar screens.  I had a new house built 4 years ago and the first year the Family room and upstairs got real warm in the day time with the thermostat set at 81.  The back of the house has 4 large widows the length of the family room, bay windows in the breakfest room and bay windows in the master bedroom plus two windows upstairs back bedrooms.  all these windows face West North West so they get most of the heat during the day.  After having solar screens installed by Solar Screens of Texas at $50.00 each on all these windows, the house stays a lot cooler and the electric bill has dropped about $125.00 a month or more.  My house is 2700 sq feet and my electric bill in april was $59.00 and the May Bill was $115. but it was much hotter in may than April.  Still the savings is pretty substancial from the previous years.  I would say that I have saved more in electrical cost than what I paid for the solar screens.  One other thing I have noticed since the screens were installed was that the house is also quietier as I don't hear as much outside noise as before.  I also should say that all the windows are double glazed windows as well.

          Dan S.

          NW Houston



          On Mon Jul 9 8:06 , evelyn sardina <evelynsardina@...> sent:

          When you have lived in warm weather you know what to do.  Open your windows, use fans and shower before you go to bed.  When you are not willing to sweat....using cfl, an automatic thermostat and fans should help greatly. If the air conditioner is the way to go then at least we can try to minimize the use of it. There is a company called solair that has a solar airconditioner but I think one unit only covers about 3 rooms at a time.  Keeping the sun away from the house is probably the best bet. Solar screens and planting trees near windows also helps.  At my permaculture class it was discussed to use trees that shed leaves in the winter to aliviate the cold.  I planted shrubs that grow tall near my windows and trimmed the bottoms to make them look like trees.  I have picture windows on my living and dinning room areas.  My house is like an oven I rather keep the sun away. In the winter just put a sweater on!  Adding a deck with a roof keeps the sun from hitting my windows directly.
          go slow because it takes some money and sweat to make the changes.  I dont mind, I intend to build a house later and all the projects are useful learning tools.  If you would like to learn about how to be more sustianable visit the animal farm in Cat Springs. I grew up in Puerto Rico, as you know we can aclimate to heat but we are very spoiled!
          Welcome, Evelyn

          Henry H Haynes <henryhh@sbcglobal. net> wrote:
          Hey Steven:

          I recall about 10 (maybe more?) years ago hearing about a hotel in the Caribbean using solar a/c, but I didn't hear anything more about it.   It seems like we would hear more about it if it were successful.  However, my cynical side makes me wonder if information is being suppressed.  I would also be very interested in more information.  I wonder what effect scale has on such a system.  i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use.  It bothers me to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough to turn it off & sweat).

          Welcome to the group.

          Henry

          Steven M <marzolian@yahoo. com> wrote:
          Greetings, all.

          I was raised in Venezuela, where it's no hotter than Houston but it
          lasts all year round :-). Both there and in Texas, I have often
          thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
          Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof
          and worked better the hotter it got?

          Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
          professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
          subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me
          any easy answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
          especially with our electric rate hikes here in Houston the past
          couple of years.

          Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
          airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
          conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp cooler", but
          there wasn't enough information to understand how it works.

          I once read somewhere that the Houston metro area has the largest
          concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true,
          but it makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and
          it's so hot, that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be
          here. Or would it?

          Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out
          there, but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that
          seem to be available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.

          Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
          powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be
          more practical any time soon?

          Steven Marzuola




          The fish are biting.
          Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.


          ---- Msg sent via Internet America Webmail - http://www.internetamerica.com/
        • evelyn sardina
          The website for the solar air conditioner is www.solcool.net there is a write up about it in the treehugger website and you can also google it for more
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 9, 2007
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            The website for the solar air conditioner is www.solcool.net  there is a write up about it in the treehugger website and you can also google it for more information.  I have not idea if it works but if you find out let us know!  We are currently painting a beach house with radiant paint.  It has a slat roof and it is in pine color.  After much tought about the beauty  of the house it was a unanimous decision that it would still look beautiful when painted in white.  The house has a small loft area with a window to the outside that has been borded out to keep the heat out. We will see how much of a difference this will make. We were told that the because the paint did not have depth it would not provide the insulation we are looking for.  I painted an extra room in my house with this paint.  the room has three exposed sides to the elements.  It was the hottest room in the house.  The house is brick and the room is siding.  You would think this room would be cooler but is was unbearable during the day time.  Now it is the coolest room of the house. I have no scientific data.  I bought a prtable thermostat to record the findings.  But everyday the weather changed and it was not comparable to the rest of the days.  That is how the Houston weather is.  All I can say is that it worked for me!

            Dans1@... wrote:
            I can attest to the use of solar screens.  I had a new house built 4 years ago and the first year the Family room and upstairs got real warm in the day time with the thermostat set at 81.  The back of the house has 4 large widows the length of the family room, bay windows in the breakfest room and bay windows in the master bedroom plus two windows upstairs back bedrooms.  all these windows face West North West so they get most of the heat during the day.  After having solar screens installed by Solar Screens of Texas at $50.00 each on all these windows, the house stays a lot cooler and the electric bill has dropped about $125.00 a month or more.  My house is 2700 sq feet and my electric bill in april was $59.00 and the May Bill was $115. but it was much hotter in may than April.  Still the savings is pretty substancial from the previous years.  I would say that I have saved more in electrical cost than what I paid for the solar screens.  One other thing I have noticed since the screens were installed was that the house is also quietier as I don't hear as much outside noise as before.  I also should say that all the windows are double glazed windows as well.
            Dan S.
            NW Houston



            On Mon Jul 9 8:06 , evelyn sardina <evelynsardina@ yahoo.com> sent:

            When you have lived in warm weather you know what to do.  Open your windows, use fans and shower before you go to bed.  When you are not willing to sweat....using cfl, an automatic thermostat and fans should help greatly. If the air conditioner is the way to go then at least we can try to minimize the use of it. There is a company called solair that has a solar airconditioner but I think one unit only covers about 3 rooms at a time.  Keeping the sun away from the house is probably the best bet. Solar screens and planting trees near windows also helps.  At my permaculture class it was discussed to use trees that shed leaves in the winter to aliviate the cold.  I planted shrubs that grow tall near my windows and trimmed the bottoms to make them look like trees.  I have picture windows on my living and dinning room areas.  My house is like an oven I rather keep the sun away. In the winter just put a sweater on!  Adding a deck with a roof keeps the sun from hitting my windows directly.
            go slow because it takes some money and sweat to make the changes.  I dont mind, I intend to build a house later and all the projects are useful learning tools.  If you would like to learn about how to be more sustianable visit the animal farm in Cat Springs. I grew up in Puerto Rico, as you know we can aclimate to heat but we are very spoiled!
            Welcome, Evelyn

            Henry H Haynes <henryhh@sbcglobal. net> wrote:
            Hey Steven:

            I recall about 10 (maybe more?) years ago hearing about a hotel in the Caribbean using solar a/c, but I didn't hear anything more about it.   It seems like we would hear more about it if it were successful.  However, my cynical side makes me wonder if information is being suppressed.  I would also be very interested in more information.  I wonder what effect scale has on such a system.  i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use.  It bothers me to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough to turn it off sweat).

            Welcome to the group.

            Henry

            Steven M <marzolian@yahoo. com> wrote:
            Greetings, all.

            I was raised in Venezuela, where it's no hotter than Houston but it
            lasts all year round :-). Both there and in Texas, I have often
            thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
            Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof
            and worked better the hotter it got?

            Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
            professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
            subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me
            any easy answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
            especially with our electric rate hikes here in Houston the past
            couple of years.

            Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
            airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
            conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp cooler", but
            there wasn't enough information to understand how it works.

            I once read somewhere that the Houston metro area has the largest
            concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true,
            but it makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and
            it's so hot, that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be
            here. Or would it?

            Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out
            there, but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that
            seem to be available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.

            Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
            powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be
            more practical any time soon?

            Steven Marzuola




            The fish are biting.
            Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

            ---- Msg sent via Internet America Webmail - http://www.internet america.com/


            Don't pick lemons.
            See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.

          • Ariel Thomann
            I had lunch last week with a friend whose family still lives in the island of Dominique. As I understood it, all (new?) houses there must harvest rainwater
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 9, 2007
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              I had lunch last week with a friend whose family still lives in the island of
              Dominique. As I understood it, all (new?) houses there must harvest rainwater
              and use photovoltaics on their roofs. Sorry, I have no details.

              Ariel
              - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since
              otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
              - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
              generations.
              ------------------------------------

              > Hey Steven:
              >
              > I recall about 10 (maybe more?) years ago hearing about a hotel in the
              > Caribbean using solar a/c, but I didn't hear anything more about it. It
              > seems like we would hear more about it if it were successful. However, my
              > cynical side makes me wonder if information is being suppressed. I would also
              > be very interested in more information. I wonder what effect scale has on
              > such a system. i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use. It bothers me
              > to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough to turn it
              > off & sweat).
              >
              > Welcome to the group.
              >
              > Henry
              >
              > Steven M <marzolian@...> wrote:
              > Greetings, all.
              >
              > I was raised in Venezuela, where it's no hotter than Houston but it lasts all
              > year round :-). Both there and in Texas, I have often
              > thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
              > Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof and
              > worked better the hotter it got?
              >
              > Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
              > professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
              > subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me any easy
              > answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
              > especially with our electric rate hikes here in Houston the past
              > couple of years.
              >
              > Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
              > airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
              > conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp cooler", but there
              > wasn't enough information to understand how it works.
              >
              > I once read somewhere that the Houston metro area has the largest
              > concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true, but it
              > makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and it's so hot,
              > that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be here. Or would it?
              >
              > Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out there,
              > but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that seem to be
              > available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.
              >
              > Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
              > powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be more
              > practical any time soon?
              >
              > Steven Marzuola
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • evelyn sardina
              A freind just got back form Costa Rica. He brought back a picture of a long black hose that sits on top of a roof in a work house in the farm where he stayed.
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 9, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                A freind just got back form Costa Rica.  He brought back a picture of a long black hose that sits on top of a roof in a work house in the farm where he stayed.  It provided all the hot water needs for the shed. It was rolled up in many layers and was just sitting on top of the roof.  I think it was tied to the roof.  I asked him to email to the group but he unsuscribed.  It seems to me we make things that have simple solutions simply too complicated. I am not suggesting a hose on top of our houses but a tankless water heater or solar water heater?

                Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@...> wrote:
                I had lunch last week with a friend whose family still lives in the island of
                Dominique. As I understood it, all (new?) houses there must harvest rainwater
                and use photovoltaics on their roofs. Sorry, I have no details.

                Ariel
                - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since
                otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                generations.
                ------------ --------- --------- ------

                > Hey Steven:
                >
                > I recall about 10 (maybe more?) years ago hearing about a hotel in the
                > Caribbean using solar a/c, but I didn't hear anything more about it. It
                > seems like we would hear more about it if it were successful. However, my
                > cynical side makes me wonder if information is being suppressed. I would also
                > be very interested in more information. I wonder what effect scale has on
                > such a system. i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use. It bothers me
                > to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough to turn it
                > off & sweat).
                >
                > Welcome to the group.
                >
                > Henry
                >
                > Steven M <marzolian@yahoo. com> wrote:
                > Greetings, all.
                >
                > I was raised in Venezuela, where it's no hotter than Houston but it lasts all
                > year round :-). Both there and in Texas, I have often
                > thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
                > Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof and
                > worked better the hotter it got?
                >
                > Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
                > professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
                > subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me any easy
                > answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
                > especially with our electric rate hikes here in Houston the past
                > couple of years.
                >
                > Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
                > airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
                > conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp cooler", but there
                > wasn't enough information to understand how it works.
                >
                > I once read somewhere that the Houston metro area has the largest
                > concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true, but it
                > makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and it's so hot,
                > that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be here. Or would it?
                >
                > Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out there,
                > but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that seem to be
                > available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.
                >
                > Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
                > powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be more
                > practical any time soon?
                >
                > Steven Marzuola
                >
                >
                >
                >



                8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

              • Kevin Conlin
                Hi Folks, I believe the solar powered system in the Caribbean was a solar thermal absorbtion chiller. There have been several attempts to do this, usually
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 9, 2007
                • 0 Attachment

                  Hi Folks,  I believe the solar powered system in the Caribbean was a solar thermal absorbtion chiller.  There have been several attempts to do this, usually using a commercial absorbtion chiller that uses solar hot water from evacuated tube collectors as either a pre-heat with natural gas final heater, or using the chiller at lower efficiencies with lower temp solar water.  The absorbtion chillers are a very proven and extremely reliable process generally designed to use waste heat or stream in the low 200’sF.  They are known to run for 50 years or more as they have very few moving parts and very low energy consumption, most of which runs pumps.  They are mostly found in large factories or plants, I remember seeing a large one at a Procter & Gamble paper plant that used waste heat from a cogeneration turbine.  The plant maintenance crew loved it because it ran so quiet and smooth, and never required attention.  Unfortunately, this process is not scaled small enough for residential use, I think the smallest units are 20 tons, but with lower evacuated tube collectors coming out of China , it may be practical for commercial scale systems.

                   

                  There was one system at NASA over 20 years ago, but like most demo projects, it was very expensive, over engineered and under built. There was also a home builder here on Houston that offered solar AC  in the late 70’s, Morgan-Barnhart was their name, and they used tracking solar thermal trough concentrators mounted on the roof.  (Nice aesthetics!)  They also failed, due to various mechanical and other problems, as well as the relatively poor and often cloudy solar resource here in Houston during the summer.  Tracking collectors are better suited to cloudless regimes like west Texas , NM, AZ etc..

                   

                  I believe there are some residential systems being offered in Japan , but I have no first hand knowledge of them.  Solar A/C has long been one of the holy grail’s in the industry, it seems like a practical compromise using proven technologies would be a solar driven geothermal system.

                   

                  That’s all I can recall from memory, it would be great if someone would commercialize the technology and do it right, after all, they’ve been working on it for 30 years!

                   

                  Kevin

                   


                  From: evelyn sardina [mailto:evelynsardina@...]
                  Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 5:53 PM
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                   

                  A freind just got back form Costa Rica .  He brought back a picture of a long black hose that sits on top of a roof in a work house in the farm where he stayed.  It provided all the hot water needs for the shed. It was rolled up in many layers and was just sitting on top of the roof.  I think it was tied to the roof.  I asked him to email to the group but he unsuscribed.  It seems to me we make things that have simple solutions simply too complicated. I am not suggesting a hose on top of our houses but a tankless water heater or solar water heater?

                  Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@pol. net> wrote:

                  I had lunch last week with a friend whose family still lives in the island of
                  Dominique. As I understood it, all (new?) houses there must harvest rainwater
                  and use photovoltaics on their roofs. Sorry, I have no details.

                  Ariel
                  - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since
                  otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                  - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                  generations.
                  ------------ --------- --------- ------

                  > Hey Steven:
                  >
                  > I recall about 10 (maybe more?) years ago hearing about a hotel in the
                  > Caribbean using solar a/c, but I didn't hear anything more about it. It
                  > seems like we would hear more about it if it were successful. However, my
                  > cynical side makes me wonder if information is being suppressed. I would also
                  > be very interested in more information. I wonder what effect scale has on
                  > such a system. i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use. It bothers me
                  > to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough to turn it
                  > off & sweat).
                  >
                  > Welcome to the group.
                  >
                  > Henry
                  >
                  > Steven M <marzolian@yahoo. com> wrote:
                  > Greetings, all.
                  >
                  > I was raised in Venezuela , where it's no hotter than Houston but it lasts all
                  > year round :-). Both there and in Texas , I have often
                  > thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
                  > Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof and
                  > worked better the hotter it got?
                  >
                  > Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
                  > professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
                  > subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me any easy
                  > answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
                  > especially with our electric rate hikes here in Houston the past
                  > couple of years.
                  >
                  > Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
                  > airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
                  > conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp cooler", but there
                  > wasn't enough information to understand how it works.
                  >
                  > I once read somewhere that the Houston metro area has the largest
                  > concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true, but it
                  > makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and it's so hot,
                  > that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be here. Or would it?
                  >
                  > Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out there,
                  > but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that seem to be
                  > available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.
                  >
                  > Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
                  > powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be more
                  > practical any time soon?
                  >
                  > Steven Marzuola
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                   

                   


                  8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                  with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

                • Paul Archer
                  Kevin, you seem pretty well versed on the subject, so perhaps you can answer this question for me: (why) is the heat from the A/C itself not used in the
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 9, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Kevin, you seem pretty well versed on the subject, so perhaps you can answer
                    this question for me: (why) is the heat from the A/C itself not used in the
                    process? It seems to me that you could take cold (well, cool) water and run
                    it through a heat exchanger with the condenser coils (or whatever passes for
                    condenser coils in an absorbtion unit), and then on to the solar collectors,
                    for a gain in efficiency. Or is there something I'm missing with that?

                    Paul


                    9:24pm, Kevin Conlin wrote:

                    > Hi Folks, I believe the solar powered system in the Caribbean was a solar
                    > thermal absorbtion chiller. There have been several attempts to do this,
                    > usually using a commercial absorbtion chiller that uses solar hot water from
                    > evacuated tube collectors as either a pre-heat with natural gas final
                    > heater, or using the chiller at lower efficiencies with lower temp solar
                    > water. The absorbtion chillers are a very proven and extremely reliable
                    > process generally designed to use waste heat or stream in the low 200'sF.
                    > They are known to run for 50 years or more as they have very few moving
                    > parts and very low energy consumption, most of which runs pumps. They are
                    > mostly found in large factories or plants, I remember seeing a large one at
                    > a Procter & Gamble paper plant that used waste heat from a cogeneration
                    > turbine. The plant maintenance crew loved it because it ran so quiet and
                    > smooth, and never required attention. Unfortunately, this process is not
                    > scaled small enough for residential use, I think the smallest units are 20
                    > tons, but with lower evacuated tube collectors coming out of China, it may
                    > be practical for commercial scale systems.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > There was one system at NASA over 20 years ago, but like most demo projects,
                    > it was very expensive, over engineered and under built. There was also a
                    > home builder here on Houston that offered solar AC in the late 70's,
                    > Morgan-Barnhart was their name, and they used tracking solar thermal trough
                    > concentrators mounted on the roof. (Nice aesthetics!) They also failed,
                    > due to various mechanical and other problems, as well as the relatively poor
                    > and often cloudy solar resource here in Houston during the summer. Tracking
                    > collectors are better suited to cloudless regimes like west Texas, NM, AZ
                    > etc..
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I believe there are some residential systems being offered in Japan, but I
                    > have no first hand knowledge of them. Solar A/C has long been one of the
                    > holy grail's in the industry, it seems like a practical compromise using
                    > proven technologies would be a solar driven geothermal system.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > That's all I can recall from memory, it would be great if someone would
                    > commercialize the technology and do it right, after all, they've been
                    > working on it for 30 years!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Kevin
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: evelyn sardina [mailto:evelynsardina@...]
                    > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 5:53 PM
                    > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar powered A/C
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > A freind just got back form Costa Rica. He brought back a picture of a long
                    > black hose that sits on top of a roof in a work house in the farm where he
                    > stayed. It provided all the hot water needs for the shed. It was rolled up
                    > in many layers and was just sitting on top of the roof. I think it was tied
                    > to the roof. I asked him to email to the group but he unsuscribed. It
                    > seems to me we make things that have simple solutions simply too
                    > complicated. I am not suggesting a hose on top of our houses but a tankless
                    > water heater or solar water heater?
                    >
                    > Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I had lunch last week with a friend whose family still lives in the island
                    > of
                    > Dominique. As I understood it, all (new?) houses there must harvest
                    > rainwater
                    > and use photovoltaics on their roofs. Sorry, I have no details.
                    >
                    > Ariel
                    > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since
                    > otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                    > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                    > generations.
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    >> Hey Steven:
                    >>
                    >> I recall about 10 (maybe more?) years ago hearing about a hotel in the
                    >> Caribbean using solar a/c, but I didn't hear anything more about it. It
                    >> seems like we would hear more about it if it were successful. However, my
                    >> cynical side makes me wonder if information is being suppressed. I would
                    > also
                    >> be very interested in more information. I wonder what effect scale has on
                    >> such a system. i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use. It bothers
                    > me
                    >> to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough to turn
                    > it
                    >> off & sweat).
                    >>
                    >> Welcome to the group.
                    >>
                    >> Henry
                    >>
                    >> Steven M <marzolian@yahoo. <mailto:marzolian%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:
                    >> Greetings, all.
                    >>
                    >> I was raised in Venezuela, where it's no hotter than Houston but it lasts
                    > all
                    >> year round :-). Both there and in Texas, I have often
                    >> thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
                    >> Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof and
                    >> worked better the hotter it got?
                    >>
                    >> Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
                    >> professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
                    >> subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me any
                    > easy
                    >> answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
                    >> especially with our electric rate hikes here in Houston the past
                    >> couple of years.
                    >>
                    >> Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
                    >> airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
                    >> conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp cooler", but there
                    >> wasn't enough information to understand how it works.
                    >>
                    >> I once read somewhere that the Houston metro area has the largest
                    >> concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true, but it
                    >> makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and it's so
                    > hot,
                    >> that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be here. Or would it?
                    >>
                    >> Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out
                    > there,
                    >> but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that seem to be
                    >> available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.
                    >>
                    >> Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
                    >> powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be more
                    >> practical any time soon?
                    >>
                    >> Steven Marzuola
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                    > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    -------------------------------------------
                    "Looking down the barrel of a loaded gun...
                    Just to see where the bullets come from!"
                    --Screaming Blue Messiahs--
                    -------------------------------------------
                  • Kevin Conlin
                    That product write up is intriguing, but little technical info is available at their site. The test results were only for a ½ ton unit, or the equivalent of
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 9, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment

                      That product write up is intriguing, but little technical info is available at their site.  The test results were only for a ½ ton unit, or the equivalent of a small window A/C.

                       


                      From: evelyn sardina [mailto:evelynsardina@...]
                      Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 1:35 PM
                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                       

                      The website for the solar air conditioner is www.solcool. net  there is a write up about it in the treehugger website and you can also google it for more information.  I have not idea if it works but if you find out let us know!  We are currently painting a beach house with radiant paint.  It has a slat roof and it is in pine color.  After much tought about the beauty  of the house it was a unanimous decision that it would still look beautiful when painted in white.  The house has a small loft area with a window to the outside that has been borded out to keep the heat out. We will see how much of a difference this will make. We were told that the because the paint did not have depth it would not provide the insulation we are looking for.  I painted an extra room in my house with this paint.  the room has three exposed sides to the elements.  It was the hottest room in the house.  The house is brick and the room is siding.  You would think this room would be cooler but is was unbearable during the day time.  Now it is the coolest room of the house. I have no scientific data.  I bought a prtable thermostat to record the findings.  But everyday the weather changed and it was not comparable to the rest of the days.  That is how the Houston weather is.  All I can say is that it worked for me!

                      Dans1@... wrote:

                      I can attest to the use of solar screens.  I had a new house built 4 years ago and the first year the Family room and upstairs got real warm in the day time with the thermostat set at 81.  The back of the house has 4 large widows the length of the family room, bay windows in the breakfest room and bay windows in the master bedroom plus two windows upstairs back bedrooms.  all these windows face West North West so they get most of the heat during the day.  After having solar screens installed by Solar Screens of Texas at $50.00 each on all these windows, the house stays a lot cooler and the electric bill has dropped about $125.00 a month or more.  My house is 2700 sq feet and my electric bill in april was $59.00 and the May Bill was $115. but it was much hotter in may than April.  Still the savings is pretty substancial from the previous years.  I would say that I have saved more in electrical cost than what I paid for the solar screens.  One other thing I have noticed since the screens were installed was that the house is also quietier as I don't hear as much outside noise as before.  I also should say that all the windows are double glazed windows as well.

                      Dan S.

                      NW Houston



                      On Mon Jul 9 8:06 , evelyn sardina <evelynsardina@ yahoo.com> sent:

                      When you have lived in warm weather you know what to do.  Open your windows, use fans and shower before you go to bed.  When you are not willing to sweat....using cfl, an automatic thermostat and fans should help greatly. If the air conditioner is the way to go then at least we can try to minimize the use of it. There is a company called solair that has a solar airconditioner but I think one unit only covers about 3 rooms at a time.  Keeping the sun away from the house is probably the best bet. Solar screens and planting trees near windows also helps.  At my permaculture class it was discussed to use trees that shed leaves in the winter to aliviate the cold.  I planted shrubs that grow tall near my windows and trimmed the bottoms to make them look like trees.  I have picture windows on my living and dinning room areas.  My house is like an oven I rather keep the sun away. In the winter just put a sweater on!  Adding a deck with a roof keeps the sun from hitting my windows directly.

                      go slow because it takes some money and sweat to make the changes.  I dont mind, I intend to build a house later and all the projects are useful learning tools.  If you would like to learn about how to be more sustianable visit the animal farm in Cat Springs. I grew up in Puerto Rico , as you know we can aclimate to heat but we are very spoiled!

                      Welcome, Evelyn

                      Henry H Haynes <henryhh@sbcglobal. net> wrote:

                      Hey Steven:

                      I recall about 10 (maybe more?) years ago hearing about a hotel in the Caribbean using solar a/c, but I didn't hear anything more about it.   It seems like we would hear more about it if it were successful.  However, my cynical side makes me wonder if information is being suppressed.  I would also be very interested in more information.  I wonder what effect scale has on such a system.  i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use.  It bothers me to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough to turn it off sweat).

                      Welcome to the group.

                      Henry

                      Steven M <marzolian@yahoo. com> wrote:

                      Greetings, all.

                      I was raised in Venezuela , where it's no hotter than Houston but it
                      lasts all year round :-). Both there and in Texas , I have often
                      thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
                      Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof
                      and worked better the hotter it got?

                      Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
                      professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
                      subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me
                      any easy answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
                      especially with our electric rate hikes here in Houston the past
                      couple of years.

                      Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
                      airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
                      conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp cooler", but
                      there wasn't enough information to understand how it works.

                      I once read somewhere that the Houston metro area has the largest
                      concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true,
                      but it makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and
                      it's so hot, that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be
                      here. Or would it?

                      Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out
                      there, but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that
                      seem to be available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.

                      Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
                      powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be
                      more practical any time soon?

                      Steven Marzuola

                       

                       


                      The fish are biting.
                      Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.


                      ---- Msg sent via Internet America Webmail - http://www.internet america.com/

                       

                       


                      Don't pick lemons.
                      See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.

                    • Kevin Conlin
                      Hi Paul, I m afraid that s over my head. I m familiar with the technology, but can t explain it chemically, perhaps one of the smarter engineers can explain
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 9, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment

                        Hi Paul,  I’m afraid that’s over my head.  I’m familiar with the technology, but can’t explain it chemically, perhaps one of the smarter engineers can explain it.  The absorbtion chillers do not have conventional compressors, the heat is used to drive a chemical process using lithium bromide where I think it is vaporized, then used to absorb heat as the reaction reverses. It is a chemical phase change process, not a vapor/compression process.

                         

                        With regard to using water to cool the Freon in a conventional AC unit, I think those do exist, they are called de-superheaters and they make domestic hot water by pre-cooling the Freon before it enters the coils.  The problem is there is more hot water than the household can use, so it’s effect is limited. A Houston AC generates more hot water than even a swimming pool can absorb, even using spray bars for night time cooling, a NASA engineer tried it some years ago, and as he put it, he had the largest crab-boil in Houston !

                         

                        Sorry I don’t have time to Google any of this, I’m just getting back from vacation to several hundred e-mails and going from memory.

                         

                        Kevin

                         


                        From: Paul Archer [mailto:tigger@...]
                        Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:31 PM
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                         

                        Kevin, you seem pretty well versed on the subject, so perhaps you can answer
                        this question for me: (why) is the heat from the A/C itself not used in the
                        process? It seems to me that you could take cold (well, cool) water and run
                        it through a heat exchanger with the condenser coils (or whatever passes for
                        condenser coils in an absorbtion unit), and then on to the solar collectors,
                        for a gain in efficiency. Or is there something I'm missing with that?

                        Paul

                        9:24pm, Kevin Conlin wrote:

                        > Hi Folks, I believe the solar powered system in the Caribbean
                        was a solar
                        > thermal absorbtion chiller. There have been several attempts to do this,
                        > usually using a commercial absorbtion chiller that uses solar hot water
                        from
                        > evacuated tube collectors as either a pre-heat with natural gas final
                        > heater, or using the chiller at lower efficiencies with lower temp solar
                        > water. The absorbtion chillers are a very proven and extremely reliable
                        > process generally designed to use waste heat or stream in the low 200'sF.
                        > They are known to run for 50 years or more as they have very few moving
                        > parts and very low energy consumption, most of which runs pumps. They are
                        > mostly found in large factories or plants, I remember seeing a large one
                        at
                        > a Procter & Gamble paper plant that used waste heat from a
                        cogeneration
                        > turbine. The plant maintenance crew loved it because it ran so quiet and
                        > smooth, and never required attention. Unfortunately, this process is not
                        > scaled small enough for residential use, I think the smallest units are 20
                        > tons, but with lower evacuated tube collectors coming out of
                        w:st="on"> China , it may
                        > be practical for commercial scale systems.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > There was one system at NASA over 20 years ago, but like most demo
                        projects,
                        > it was very expensive, over engineered and under built. There was also a
                        > home builder here on Houston
                        that offered solar AC in the late 70's,
                        > Morgan-Barnhart was their name, and they used tracking solar thermal
                        trough
                        > concentrators mounted on the roof. (Nice aesthetics!) They also failed,
                        > due to various mechanical and other problems, as well as the relatively
                        poor
                        > and often cloudy solar resource here in
                        w:st="on">Houston during the summer. Tracking
                        > collectors are better suited to cloudless regimes like west
                        w:st="on"> Texas , NM, AZ
                        > etc..
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I believe there are some residential systems being offered in
                        w:st="on"> Japan , but I
                        > have no first hand knowledge of them. Solar A/C has long been one of the
                        > holy grail's in the industry, it seems like a practical compromise using
                        > proven technologies would be a solar driven geothermal system.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > That's all I can recall from memory, it would be great if someone would
                        > commercialize the technology and do it right, after all, they've been
                        > working on it for 30 years!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Kevin
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > From: evelyn sardina [mailto:evelynsardina@ yahoo.com]
                        > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 5:53 PM
                        > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                        > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar powered A/C
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > A freind just got back form
                        w:st="on">Costa Rica . He brought back a picture of a long
                        > black hose that sits on top of a roof in a work house in the farm where he
                        > stayed. It provided all the hot water needs for the shed. It was rolled up
                        > in many layers and was just sitting on top of the roof. I think it was
                        tied
                        > to the roof. I asked him to email to the group but he unsuscribed. It
                        > seems to me we make things that have simple solutions simply too
                        > complicated. I am not suggesting a hose on top of our houses but a
                        tankless
                        > water heater or solar water heater?
                        >
                        > Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@pol. net>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > I had lunch last week with a friend whose family still lives in the island
                        > of
                        > Dominique. As I understood it, all (new?) houses there must harvest
                        > rainwater
                        > and use photovoltaics on their roofs. Sorry, I have no details.
                        >
                        > Ariel
                        > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
                        since
                        > otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                        > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                        > generations.
                        > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                        >
                        >> Hey Steven:
                        >>
                        >> I recall about 10 (maybe more?) years ago hearing about a hotel in the
                        >> Caribbean using solar a/c, but I
                        didn't hear anything more about it. It
                        >> seems like we would hear more about it if it were successful. However,
                        my
                        >> cynical side makes me wonder if information is being suppressed. I
                        would
                        > also
                        >> be very interested in more information. I wonder what effect scale has
                        on
                        >> such a system. i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use. It
                        bothers
                        > me
                        >> to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough to
                        turn
                        > it
                        >> off & sweat).
                        >>
                        >> Welcome to the group.
                        >>
                        >> Henry
                        >>
                        >> Steven M <marzolian@yahoo. <mailto:marzolian% 40yahoo.com>
                        com> wrote:
                        >> Greetings, all.
                        >>
                        >> I was raised in Venezuela ,
                        where it's no hotter than Houston but it lasts
                        > all
                        >> year round :-). Both there and in
                        w:st="on">Texas , I have often
                        >> thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
                        >> Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof
                        and
                        >> worked better the hotter it got?
                        >>
                        >> Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
                        >> professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
                        >> subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me
                        any
                        > easy
                        >> answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
                        >> especially with our electric rate hikes here in
                        w:st="on">Houston the past
                        >> couple of years.
                        >>
                        >> Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
                        >> airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
                        >> conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp
                        cooler", but there
                        >> wasn't enough information to understand how it works.
                        >>
                        >> I once read somewhere that the Houston
                        metro area has the largest
                        >> concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true,
                        but it
                        >> makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and it's so
                        > hot,
                        >> that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be here. Or would
                        it?
                        >>
                        >> Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out
                        > there,
                        >> but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that seem to
                        be
                        >> available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.
                        >>
                        >> Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
                        >> powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be more
                        >> practical any time soon?
                        >>
                        >> Steven Marzuola
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                        > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----
                        "Looking down the barrel of a loaded gun...
                        Just to see where the bullets come from!"
                        --Screaming Blue Messiahs--
                        ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----

                      • Ed Sarlls
                        A garden hose laying in the lawn will produce water too hot to bath in. You just need a lot of garden hose or a tank for a long shower. On the down side most
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 9, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          A garden hose laying in the lawn will produce water too hot to bath in. You just need a lot of garden hose or a tank for a long shower. On the down side most garden hoses will swell or burst with city water pressure on them. I have had one hose burst when I forgot to turn off the water and drain the pressure on the hose.
                           
                          Ed
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 5:53 PM
                          Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                          A freind just got back form Costa Rica.  He brought back a picture of a long black hose that sits on top of a roof in a work house in the farm where he stayed.  It provided all the hot water needs for the shed. It was rolled up in many layers and was just sitting on top of the roof.  I think it was tied to the roof.  I asked him to email to the group but he unsuscribed.  It seems to me we make things that have simple solutions simply too complicated. I am not suggesting a hose on top of our houses but a tankless water heater or solar water heater?

                          Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@pol. net> wrote:

                          I had lunch last week with a friend whose family still lives in the island of
                          Dominique. As I understood it, all (new?) houses there must harvest rainwater
                          and use photovoltaics on their roofs. interested in more information. I wonder what effect scale has on
                          > such a system. i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use. It bothers me
                          > to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough to turn it
                          > off & sweat).
                          >
                          > Welcome to the group.
                          >
                          > Henry
                          >
                          > Steven M <marzolian@yahoo. com> wrote:
                          > Greetings, all.
                          >
                          > I was raised in Venezuela, where it's no hotter than Houston but it lasts all
                          > year round :-). Both there and in Texas, I have often
                          > thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
                          > Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof and
                          > worked better the hotter it got?
                          >
                          > Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
                          > professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
                          > subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me any easy
                          > answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
                          > especially with our electric rate hikes here in Houston the past
                          > couple of years.
                          >
                          > Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
                          > airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
                          > conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp cooler", but there
                          > wasn't enough information to understand how it works.
                          >
                          > I once read somewhere that the Houston metro area has the largest
                          > concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true, but it
                          > makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and it's so hot,
                          > that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be here. Or would it?
                          >
                          > Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out there,
                          > but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that seem to be
                          > available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.
                          >
                          > Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
                          > powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be more
                          > practical any time soon?
                          >
                          > Steven Marzuola
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                          with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

                        • David Power
                          Paul, Take a look at http://www.thermalflow.net/ for a look at an efficient use a of water cooled residential ac. They are made in Austin. I ve had one on my
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 9, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Paul,

                            Take a look at http://www.thermalflow.net/ for a look at an efficient use a of water cooled residential ac. They are made in Austin .

                            I’ve had one on my house for several years and have been very pleased with the performance. They do have a de-superheater option as well that is used as a pool and domestic hot water system.

                             

                            David

                             

                             


                            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Kevin Conlin
                            Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:50 PM
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                             

                            Hi Paul,  I’m afraid that’s over my head.  I’m familiar with the technology, but can’t explain it chemically, perhaps one of the smarter engineers can explain it.  The absorbtion chillers do not have conventional compressors, the heat is used to drive a chemical process using lithium bromide where I think it is vaporized, then used to absorb heat as the reaction reverses. It is a chemical phase change process, not a vapor/compression process.

                             

                            With regard to using water to cool the Freon in a conventional AC unit, I think those do exist, they are called de-superheaters and they make domestic hot water by pre-cooling the Freon before it enters the coils.  The problem is there is more hot water than the household can use, so it’s effect is limited. A Houston AC generates more hot water than even a swimming pool can absorb, even using spray bars for night time cooling, a NASA engineer tried it some years ago, and as he put it, he had the largest crab-boil in Houston !

                             

                            Sorry I don’t have time to Google any of this, I’m just getting back from vacation to several hundred e-mails and going from memory.

                             

                          • Paul Archer
                            Thanks for the responses. I had thought about putting some sort of sprayer on my condensing coils, but I ve been afraid that the water would have too many
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 10, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thanks for the responses.
                              I had thought about putting some sort of sprayer on my condensing coils, but
                              I've been afraid that the water would have too many impurities which would
                              end up on the coils. Now if I could divert the condensation from the cooling
                              coils (which is naturally distilled, of course), then that might help...

                              Paul

                              Yesterday, Kevin Conlin wrote:

                              > Hi Paul, I'm afraid that's over my head. I'm familiar with the technology,
                              > but can't explain it chemically, perhaps one of the smarter engineers can
                              > explain it. The absorbtion chillers do not have conventional compressors,
                              > the heat is used to drive a chemical process using lithium bromide where I
                              > think it is vaporized, then used to absorb heat as the reaction reverses. It
                              > is a chemical phase change process, not a vapor/compression process.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > With regard to using water to cool the Freon in a conventional AC unit, I
                              > think those do exist, they are called de-superheaters and they make domestic
                              > hot water by pre-cooling the Freon before it enters the coils. The problem
                              > is there is more hot water than the household can use, so it's effect is
                              > limited. A Houston AC generates more hot water than even a swimming pool can
                              > absorb, even using spray bars for night time cooling, a NASA engineer tried
                              > it some years ago, and as he put it, he had the largest crab-boil in
                              > Houston!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Sorry I don't have time to Google any of this, I'm just getting back from
                              > vacation to several hundred e-mails and going from memory.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Kevin
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _____
                              >
                              > From: Paul Archer [mailto:tigger@...]
                              > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:31 PM
                              > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Kevin, you seem pretty well versed on the subject, so perhaps you can answer
                              >
                              > this question for me: (why) is the heat from the A/C itself not used in the
                              > process? It seems to me that you could take cold (well, cool) water and run
                              > it through a heat exchanger with the condenser coils (or whatever passes for
                              >
                              > condenser coils in an absorbtion unit), and then on to the solar collectors,
                              >
                              > for a gain in efficiency. Or is there something I'm missing with that?
                              >
                              > Paul
                              >
                              > 9:24pm, Kevin Conlin wrote:
                              >
                              >> Hi Folks, I believe the solar powered system in the Caribbean was a solar
                              >> thermal absorbtion chiller. There have been several attempts to do this,
                              >> usually using a commercial absorbtion chiller that uses solar hot water
                              > from
                              >> evacuated tube collectors as either a pre-heat with natural gas final
                              >> heater, or using the chiller at lower efficiencies with lower temp solar
                              >> water. The absorbtion chillers are a very proven and extremely reliable
                              >> process generally designed to use waste heat or stream in the low 200'sF.
                              >> They are known to run for 50 years or more as they have very few moving
                              >> parts and very low energy consumption, most of which runs pumps. They are
                              >> mostly found in large factories or plants, I remember seeing a large one
                              > at
                              >> a Procter & Gamble paper plant that used waste heat from a cogeneration
                              >> turbine. The plant maintenance crew loved it because it ran so quiet and
                              >> smooth, and never required attention. Unfortunately, this process is not
                              >> scaled small enough for residential use, I think the smallest units are 20
                              >> tons, but with lower evacuated tube collectors coming out of China, it may
                              >> be practical for commercial scale systems.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> There was one system at NASA over 20 years ago, but like most demo
                              > projects,
                              >> it was very expensive, over engineered and under built. There was also a
                              >> home builder here on Houston that offered solar AC in the late 70's,
                              >> Morgan-Barnhart was their name, and they used tracking solar thermal
                              > trough
                              >> concentrators mounted on the roof. (Nice aesthetics!) They also failed,
                              >> due to various mechanical and other problems, as well as the relatively
                              > poor
                              >> and often cloudy solar resource here in Houston during the summer.
                              > Tracking
                              >> collectors are better suited to cloudless regimes like west Texas, NM, AZ
                              >> etc..
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> I believe there are some residential systems being offered in Japan, but I
                              >> have no first hand knowledge of them. Solar A/C has long been one of the
                              >> holy grail's in the industry, it seems like a practical compromise using
                              >> proven technologies would be a solar driven geothermal system.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> That's all I can recall from memory, it would be great if someone would
                              >> commercialize the technology and do it right, after all, they've been
                              >> working on it for 30 years!
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Kevin
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> _____
                              >>
                              >> From: evelyn sardina [mailto:evelynsardina@
                              > <mailto:evelynsardina%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com]
                              >> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 5:53 PM
                              >> To: hreg@yahoogroups. <mailto:hreg%40yahoogroups.com> com
                              >> Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar powered A/C
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> A freind just got back form Costa Rica. He brought back a picture of a
                              > long
                              >> black hose that sits on top of a roof in a work house in the farm where he
                              >> stayed. It provided all the hot water needs for the shed. It was rolled up
                              >> in many layers and was just sitting on top of the roof. I think it was
                              > tied
                              >> to the roof. I asked him to email to the group but he unsuscribed. It
                              >> seems to me we make things that have simple solutions simply too
                              >> complicated. I am not suggesting a hose on top of our houses but a
                              > tankless
                              >> water heater or solar water heater?
                              >>
                              >> Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@pol. <mailto:ajthomann%40pol.net> net> wrote:
                              >>
                              >> I had lunch last week with a friend whose family still lives in the island
                              >> of
                              >> Dominique. As I understood it, all (new?) houses there must harvest
                              >> rainwater
                              >> and use photovoltaics on their roofs. Sorry, I have no details.
                              >>
                              >> Ariel
                              >> - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
                              > since
                              >> otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                              >> - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                              >> generations.
                              >> ------------------------------------
                              >>
                              >>> Hey Steven:
                              >>>
                              >>> I recall about 10 (maybe more?) years ago hearing about a hotel in the
                              >>> Caribbean using solar a/c, but I didn't hear anything more about it. It
                              >>> seems like we would hear more about it if it were successful. However, my
                              >>> cynical side makes me wonder if information is being suppressed. I would
                              >> also
                              >>> be very interested in more information. I wonder what effect scale has on
                              >>> such a system. i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use. It bothers
                              >> me
                              >>> to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough to turn
                              >> it
                              >>> off & sweat).
                              >>>
                              >>> Welcome to the group.
                              >>>
                              >>> Henry
                              >>>
                              >>> Steven M <marzolian@yahoo. <mailto:marzolian%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:
                              >>> Greetings, all.
                              >>>
                              >>> I was raised in Venezuela, where it's no hotter than Houston but it lasts
                              >> all
                              >>> year round :-). Both there and in Texas, I have often
                              >>> thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
                              >>> Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof and
                              >>> worked better the hotter it got?
                              >>>
                              >>> Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
                              >>> professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
                              >>> subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me any
                              >> easy
                              >>> answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
                              >>> especially with our electric rate hikes here in Houston the past
                              >>> couple of years.
                              >>>
                              >>> Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
                              >>> airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
                              >>> conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp cooler", but there
                              >>> wasn't enough information to understand how it works.
                              >>>
                              >>> I once read somewhere that the Houston metro area has the largest
                              >>> concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true, but
                              > it
                              >>> makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and it's so
                              >> hot,
                              >>> that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be here. Or would it?
                              >>>
                              >>> Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out
                              >> there,
                              >>> but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that seem to be
                              >>> available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.
                              >>>
                              >>> Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
                              >>> powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be more
                              >>> practical any time soon?
                              >>>
                              >>> Steven Marzuola
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> _____
                              >>
                              >> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                              >> with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              > -------------------------------------------
                              > "Looking down the barrel of a loaded gun...
                              > Just to see where the bullets come from!"
                              > --Screaming Blue Messiahs--
                              > -------------------------------------------
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              ----------------------------------------------------------------
                              "All right...initialize the GBL."
                              "How do you do that, then?" Terry Pratchett
                              "It...it means pull the great big lever." from "Hogfather"
                              ----------------------------------------------------------------
                            • Robert Johnston
                              That s an interesting system! I took a look at the webpage. Does your experience jibe with their claims on energy/cost savings? i.e., what % drop in summer
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 10, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment

                                That’s an interesting system!  I took a look at the webpage. 

                                Does your experience jibe with their claims on energy/cost savings?  i.e., what % drop in summer kwh usage did you see vs. whatever you had in there before (what SEER was the old system?)?

                                 

                                When you made your decision to purchase this, did you also look at geothermal heat pumps?  What made you decide to go this route instead?  (This conceptually seems a lot like the geothermal heat pumps in the sense of using water in the cooling cycle, but this system does not have a heating cycle for winter).

                                 

                                Did the system cost a lot more than conventional units, and do you believe it has paid for itself in savings?

                                 

                                Thanks,


                                Robert Johnston

                                 


                                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of David Power
                                Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 11:05 PM
                                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                                 

                                Paul,

                                Take a look at http://www.thermalf low.net/ for a look at an efficient use a of water cooled residential ac. They are made in Austin .

                                I’ve had one on my house for several years and have been very pleased with the performance. They do have a de-superheater option as well that is used as a pool and domestic hot water system.

                                 

                                David

                                 

                                 


                                From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Kevin Conlin
                                Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:50 PM
                                To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                                 

                                Hi Paul,  I’m afraid that’s over my head.  I’m familiar with the technology, but can’t explain it chemically, perhaps one of the smarter engineers can explain it.  The absorbtion chillers do not have conventional compressors, the heat is used to drive a chemical process using lithium bromide where I think it is vaporized, then used to absorb heat as the reaction reverses. It is a chemical phase change process, not a vapor/compression process.

                                 

                                With regard to using water to cool the Freon in a conventional AC unit, I think those do exist, they are called de-superheaters and they make domestic hot water by pre-cooling the Freon before it enters the coils.  The problem is there is more hot water than the household can use, so it’s effect is limited. A Houston AC generates more hot water than even a swimming pool can absorb, even using spray bars for night time cooling, a NASA engineer tried it some years ago, and as he put it, he had the largest crab-boil in Houston !

                                 

                                Sorry I don’t have time to Google any of this, I’m just getting back from vacation to several hundred e-mails and going from memory.

                                 

                              • Michael Ewert
                                Kevin had a lot of good explanations. Thanks for the info. To elaborate on the temperatures, the absorption cycle takes in heat at a cool temperature in the
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 10, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  Kevin had a lot of good explanations.  Thanks for the info.

                                  To elaborate on the temperatures, the absorption cycle takes in heat at a cool temperature in the evaporator (the air you want to cool) and at a high temperature in the regenerator (the solar or other heat energy to run the cycle) and rejects it all at an intermediate temperature in the absorber (dumped to the atmosphere).  Remember there has to be an energy balance and heat has to flow from hot to cold.

                                   


                                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Paul Archer
                                  Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:31 PM
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                                   

                                  Kevin, you seem pretty well versed on the subject, so perhaps you can answer
                                  this question for me: (why) is the heat from the A/C itself not used in the
                                  process? It seems to me that you could take cold (well, cool) water and run
                                  it through a heat exchanger with the condenser coils (or whatever passes for
                                  condenser coils in an absorbtion unit), and then on to the solar collectors,
                                  for a gain in efficiency. Or is there something I'm missing with that?

                                  Paul

                                  9:24pm, Kevin Conlin wrote:

                                  > Hi Folks, I believe the solar powered system in the Caribbean
                                  was a solar
                                  > thermal absorbtion chiller. There have been several attempts to do this,
                                  > usually using a commercial absorbtion chiller that uses solar hot water
                                  from
                                  > evacuated tube collectors as either a pre-heat with natural gas final
                                  > heater, or using the chiller at lower efficiencies with lower temp solar
                                  > water. The absorbtion chillers are a very proven and extremely reliable
                                  > process generally designed to use waste heat or stream in the low 200'sF.
                                  > They are known to run for 50 years or more as they have very few moving
                                  > parts and very low energy consumption, most of which runs pumps. They are
                                  > mostly found in large factories or plants, I remember seeing a large one
                                  at
                                  > a Procter & Gamble paper plant that used waste heat from a
                                  cogeneration
                                  > turbine. The plant maintenance crew loved it because it ran so quiet and
                                  > smooth, and never required attention. Unfortunately, this process is not
                                  > scaled small enough for residential use, I think the smallest units are 20
                                  > tons, but with lower evacuated tube collectors coming out of
                                  w:st="on"> China , it may
                                  > be practical for commercial scale systems.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > There was one system at NASA over 20 years ago, but like most demo
                                  projects,
                                  > it was very expensive, over engineered and under built. There was also a
                                  > home builder here on Houston
                                  that offered solar AC in the late 70's,
                                  > Morgan-Barnhart was their name, and they used tracking solar thermal
                                  trough
                                  > concentrators mounted on the roof. (Nice aesthetics!) They also failed,
                                  > due to various mechanical and other problems, as well as the relatively
                                  poor
                                  > and often cloudy solar resource here in
                                  w:st="on">Houston during the summer. Tracking
                                  > collectors are better suited to cloudless regimes like west
                                  w:st="on"> Texas , NM, AZ
                                  > etc..
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I believe there are some residential systems being offered in
                                  w:st="on"> Japan , but I
                                  > have no first hand knowledge of them. Solar A/C has long been one of the
                                  > holy grail's in the industry, it seems like a practical compromise using
                                  > proven technologies would be a solar driven geothermal system.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > That's all I can recall from memory, it would be great if someone would
                                  > commercialize the technology and do it right, after all, they've been
                                  > working on it for 30 years!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Kevin
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: evelyn sardina [mailto:evelynsardina@ yahoo.com]
                                  > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 5:53 PM
                                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar powered A/C
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > A freind just got back form
                                  w:st="on">Costa Rica . He brought back a picture of a long
                                  > black hose that sits on top of a roof in a work house in the farm where he
                                  > stayed. It provided all the hot water needs for the shed. It was rolled up
                                  > in many layers and was just sitting on top of the roof. I think it was
                                  tied
                                  > to the roof. I asked him to email to the group but he unsuscribed. It
                                  > seems to me we make things that have simple solutions simply too
                                  > complicated. I am not suggesting a hose on top of our houses but a
                                  tankless
                                  > water heater or solar water heater?
                                  >
                                  > Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@pol. net>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I had lunch last week with a friend whose family still lives in the island
                                  > of
                                  > Dominique. As I understood it, all (new?) houses there must harvest
                                  > rainwater
                                  > and use photovoltaics on their roofs. Sorry, I have no details.
                                  >
                                  > Ariel
                                  > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
                                  since
                                  > otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                                  > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                                  > generations.
                                  > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                  >
                                  >> Hey Steven:
                                  >>
                                  >> I recall about 10 (maybe more?) years ago hearing about a hotel in the
                                  >> Caribbean using solar a/c, but I
                                  didn't hear anything more about it. It
                                  >> seems like we would hear more about it if it were successful. However,
                                  my
                                  >> cynical side makes me wonder if information is being suppressed. I
                                  would
                                  > also
                                  >> be very interested in more information. I wonder what effect scale has
                                  on
                                  >> such a system. i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use. It
                                  bothers
                                  > me
                                  >> to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough to
                                  turn
                                  > it
                                  >> off & sweat).
                                  >>
                                  >> Welcome to the group.
                                  >>
                                  >> Henry
                                  >>
                                  >> Steven M <marzolian@yahoo. <mailto:marzolian% 40yahoo.com>
                                  com> wrote:
                                  >> Greetings, all.
                                  >>
                                  >> I was raised in Venezuela ,
                                  where it's no hotter than Houston but it lasts
                                  > all
                                  >> year round :-). Both there and in
                                  w:st="on">Texas , I have often
                                  >> thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
                                  >> Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof
                                  and
                                  >> worked better the hotter it got?
                                  >>
                                  >> Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
                                  >> professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
                                  >> subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me
                                  any
                                  > easy
                                  >> answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
                                  >> especially with our electric rate hikes here in
                                  w:st="on">Houston the past
                                  >> couple of years.
                                  >>
                                  >> Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
                                  >> airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
                                  >> conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp
                                  cooler", but there
                                  >> wasn't enough information to understand how it works.
                                  >>
                                  >> I once read somewhere that the Houston
                                  metro area has the largest
                                  >> concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true,
                                  but it
                                  >> makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and it's so
                                  > hot,
                                  >> that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be here. Or would
                                  it?
                                  >>
                                  >> Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out
                                  > there,
                                  >> but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that seem to
                                  be
                                  >> available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.
                                  >>
                                  >> Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
                                  >> powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be more
                                  >> practical any time soon?
                                  >>
                                  >> Steven Marzuola
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                                  > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----
                                  "Looking down the barrel of a loaded gun...
                                  Just to see where the bullets come from!"
                                  --Screaming Blue Messiahs--
                                  ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----

                                • Gary Beck
                                  I was associated with some waste heat driven chiller development efforts earlier in my career. If you are building a campus, a hospital, a hotel, or a large
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jul 10, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                    I was associated with some waste heat driven chiller development efforts earlier in my career.  If you are building a campus, a hospital, a hotel, or a large active adult multiunit complex for 500+ people call me*, or call a really big company** first and then call me.

                                     

                                    But if you are building a house, you will do much better if you concentrate your efforts/$ on designing an then building a super insulated, air tight, clean interior, low emission building that can also occasionally enjoy natural breezes, and therefore requires 1/4 the cooling load. Trust me on this.

                                     

                                    Gary Beck, P.E.

                                    Eco-Holdings LLC

                                    4010 Blue Bonnet Blvd., Suite 114

                                    Houston, Texas 77025

                                     

                                    Tel: 713-377-4209

                                    Fax: 832-201-5338

                                    Cell: 713-530-1950

                                     

                                    FYI- Taking heat to cold without the use of electric driven compression of a refrigerant involves capturing large amounts of heat (solar, geothermal, waste steam, exhaust stacks, etc.), and then using it as energy in lieu of a compressor’s mechanical energy to drive a refrigeration loop.  After that energy does it does its work, the majority of it is then rejected into the atmosphere though cooling towers or some other means. The amount of heat energy converted into cold is on the order of about 5%. Commercially available units were limited to about 40 tons of cooling. A 20 ton unit was made for a while by Nishiyodo but that was very limited. Smaller units are in the works, but the ROI on a good design should rule these out unless you have too much $$, in which case you should also contact me.*

                                     

                                    * Link to me – www.eco-holdings.com (also see office above)

                                     

                                    ** Links to big companies with good experience and interesting heat-to-cold technologies-

                                    http://www.microturbine.com/prodsol/solutions/cchp.asp

                                    http://www.ms.ornl.gov/maw06/pdfs/presentations/Day2/Morrow.pdf

                                    http://www.adsorptionchiller.bigstep.com/  some adsorption chiller ‘bullets’ are

                                    • Water used as refrigerant, no freons, no Li-Br, no ammonia means : No hazardous leaks, no corrosion, no chemical testing, no replacement.
                                    • No compressor means: No alignment, no high voltage, no high pressure, no overhaul, no oil change, no surging, no vibration or noise.
                                    • Stable chilled water out-put driven by a wide range (194 to 122oF) of hot water.
                                    • Capacity out-put remains stable as in-put fluctuates. No back up burner required.
                                    • Simple and short start up / stop time
                                    • 38 F of chilled water is in the standard specification.
                                    • Constant operation - 24 hours / 7 days a week.

                                     


                                    From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Kevin Conlin
                                    Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:50 PM
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                                     

                                    Hi Paul,  I’m afraid that’s over my head.  I’m familiar with the technology, but can’t explain it chemically, perhaps one of the smarter engineers can explain it.  The absorbtion chillers do not have conventional compressors, the heat is used to drive a chemical process using lithium bromide where I think it is vaporized, then used to absorb heat as the reaction reverses. It is a chemical phase change process, not a vapor/compression process.

                                     

                                    With regard to using water to cool the Freon in a conventional AC unit, I think those do exist, they are called de-superheaters and they make domestic hot water by pre-cooling the Freon before it enters the coils.  The problem is there is more hot water than the household can use, so it’s effect is limited. A Houston AC generates more hot water than even a swimming pool can absorb, even using spray bars for night time cooling, a NASA engineer tried it some years ago, and as he put it, he had the largest crab-boil in Houston !

                                     

                                    Sorry I don’t have time to Google any of this, I’m just getting back from vacation to several hundred e-mails and going from memory.

                                     

                                    Kevin

                                     


                                    From: Paul Archer [mailto: tigger@ io.com ]
                                    Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:31 PM
                                    To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                    Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                                     

                                    Kevin, you seem pretty well versed on the subject, so perhaps you can answer
                                    this question for me: (why) is the heat from the A/C itself not used in the
                                    process? It seems to me that you could take cold (well, cool) water and run
                                    it through a heat exchanger with the condenser coils (or whatever passes for
                                    condenser coils in an absorbtion unit), and then on to the solar collectors,
                                    for a gain in efficiency. Or is there something I'm missing with that?

                                    Paul

                                    9:24pm, Kevin Conlin wrote:

                                    > Hi Folks, I believe the solar powered system in the Caribbean
                                    was a solar
                                    > thermal absorbtion chiller. There have been several attempts to do this,
                                    > usually using a commercial absorbtion chiller that uses solar hot water
                                    from
                                    > evacuated tube collectors as either a pre-heat with natural gas final
                                    > heater, or using the chiller at lower efficiencies with lower temp solar
                                    > water. The absorbtion chillers are a very proven and extremely reliable
                                    > process generally designed to use waste heat or stream in the low 200'sF.
                                    > They are known to run for 50 years or more as they have very few moving
                                    > parts and very low energy consumption, most of which runs pumps. They are
                                    > mostly found in large factories or plants, I remember seeing a large one
                                    at
                                    > a Procter & Gamble paper plant that used waste heat from a
                                    cogeneration
                                    > turbine. The plant maintenance crew loved it because it ran so quiet and
                                    > smooth, and never required attention. Unfortunately, this process is not
                                    > scaled small enough for residential use, I think the smallest units are 20
                                    > tons, but with lower evacuated tube collectors coming out of
                                    w:st="on"> China , it may
                                    > be practical for commercial scale systems.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > There was one system at NASA over 20 years ago, but like most demo
                                    projects,
                                    > it was very expensive, over engineered and under built. There was also a
                                    > home builder here on Houston
                                    that offered solar AC in the late 70's,
                                    > Morgan-Barnhart was their name, and they used tracking solar thermal
                                    trough
                                    > concentrators mounted on the roof. (Nice aesthetics!) They also failed,
                                    > due to various mechanical and other problems, as well as the relatively
                                    poor
                                    > and often cloudy solar resource here in
                                    w:st="on">Houston during the summer. Tracking
                                    > collectors are better suited to cloudless regimes like west
                                    w:st="on"> Texas , NM, AZ
                                    > etc..
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I believe there are some residential systems being offered in
                                    w:st="on"> Japan , but I
                                    > have no first hand knowledge of them. Solar A/C has long been one of the
                                    > holy grail's in the industry, it seems like a practical compromise using
                                    > proven technologies would be a solar driven geothermal system.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > That's all I can recall from memory, it would be great if someone would
                                    > commercialize the technology and do it right, after all, they've been
                                    > working on it for 30 years!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Kevin
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > _____
                                    >
                                    > From: evelyn sardina [mailto:evelynsardina@ yahoo.com]
                                    > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 5:53 PM
                                    > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar powered A/C
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > A freind just got back form
                                    w:st="on">Costa Rica . He brought back a picture of a long
                                    > black hose that sits on top of a roof in a work house in the farm where he
                                    > stayed. It provided all the hot water needs for the shed. It was rolled up
                                    > in many layers and was just sitting on top of the roof. I think it was
                                    tied
                                    > to the roof. I asked him to email to the group but he unsuscribed. It
                                    > seems to me we make things that have simple solutions simply too
                                    > complicated. I am not suggesting a hose on top of our houses but a
                                    tankless
                                    > water heater or solar water heater?
                                    >
                                    > Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@pol. net>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I had lunch last week with a friend whose family still lives in the island
                                    > of
                                    > Dominique. As I understood it, all (new?) houses there must harvest
                                    > rainwater
                                    > and use photovoltaics on their roofs. Sorry, I have no details.
                                    >
                                    > Ariel
                                    > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
                                    since
                                    > otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                                    > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                                    > generations.
                                    > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                    >
                                    >> Hey Steven:
                                    >>
                                    >> I recall about 10 (maybe more?) years ago hearing about a hotel in the
                                    >> Caribbean using solar a/c,
                                    but I didn't hear anything more about it. It
                                    >> seems like we would hear more about it if it were successful. However,
                                    my
                                    >> cynical side makes me wonder if information is being suppressed. I
                                    would
                                    > also
                                    >> be very interested in more information. I wonder what effect scale has
                                    on
                                    >> such a system. i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use. It
                                    bothers
                                    > me
                                    >> to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough to
                                    turn
                                    > it
                                    >> off & sweat).
                                    >>
                                    >> Welcome to the group.
                                    >>
                                    >> Henry
                                    >>
                                    >> Steven M <marzolian@yahoo. <mailto:marzolian% 40yahoo.com>
                                    com> wrote:
                                    >> Greetings, all.
                                    >>
                                    >> I was raised in Venezuela ,
                                    where it's no hotter than Houston but it lasts
                                    > all
                                    >> year round :-). Both there and in
                                    w:st="on">Texas , I have often
                                    >> thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool indoors.
                                    >> Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the roof
                                    and
                                    >> worked better the hotter it got?
                                    >>
                                    >> Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics, the
                                    >> professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
                                    >> subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give me
                                    any
                                    > easy
                                    >> answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
                                    >> especially with our electric rate hikes here in
                                    w:st="on"> Houston the past
                                    >> couple of years.
                                    >>
                                    >> Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
                                    >> airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
                                    >> conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp
                                    cooler", but there
                                    >> wasn't enough information to understand how it works.
                                    >>
                                    >> I once read somewhere that the
                                    w:st="on">Houston metro area has the largest
                                    >> concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's true,
                                    but it
                                    >> makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and it's so
                                    > hot,
                                    >> that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be here. Or would
                                    it?
                                    >>
                                    >> Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals out
                                    > there,
                                    >> but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that seem to
                                    be
                                    >> available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.
                                    >>
                                    >> Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of solar
                                    >> powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be more
                                    >> practical any time soon?
                                    >>
                                    >> Steven Marzuola
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > _____
                                    >
                                    > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                                    > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----
                                    "Looking down the barrel of a loaded gun...
                                    Just to see where the bullets come from!"
                                    --Screaming Blue Messiahs--
                                    ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----

                                  • Kevin Conlin
                                    Hi Paul, I believe your assessment of using tap water is correct, the water in Houston is too hard and you will have mineral deposits which will slow the heat
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jul 10, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      Hi Paul,  I believe your assessment of using tap water is correct, the water in Houston is too hard and you will have mineral deposits which will slow the heat transfer.  Using the condensate seems like a good idea if there is enough of it, might present an interesting plumbing challenge!  Good luck!

                                       

                                      Kevin

                                       

                                       

                                      ________________________

                                      Kevin Conlin

                                      Solarcraft, Inc.

                                      4007 C Greenbriar

                                      Stafford, TX 77477-4536

                                      Local (281) 340-1224

                                      Toll Free (877) 340-1224

                                      Fax 281 340 1230

                                      Cell 281 960 8979

                                      kconlin@...

                                      www.solarcraft.net

                                       

                                      Please make a note of our new contact information above.

                                       


                                      From: Paul Archer [mailto:tigger@...]
                                      Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 6:52 AM
                                      To: Houston RE Group
                                      Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                                       

                                      Thanks for the responses.
                                      I had thought about putting some sort of sprayer on my condensing coils, but
                                      I've been afraid that the water would have too many impurities which would
                                      end up on the coils. Now if I could divert the condensation from the cooling
                                      coils (which is naturally distilled, of course), then that might help...

                                      Paul

                                      Yesterday, Kevin Conlin wrote:

                                      > Hi Paul, I'm afraid that's over my head. I'm familiar with the technology,
                                      > but can't explain it chemically, perhaps one of the smarter engineers can
                                      > explain it. The absorbtion chillers do not have conventional compressors,
                                      > the heat is used to drive a chemical process using lithium bromide where I
                                      > think it is vaporized, then used to absorb heat as the reaction reverses.
                                      It
                                      > is a chemical phase change process, not a vapor/compression process.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > With regard to using water to cool the Freon in a conventional AC unit, I
                                      > think those do exist, they are called de-superheaters and they make
                                      domestic
                                      > hot water by pre-cooling the Freon before it enters the coils. The problem
                                      > is there is more hot water than the household can use, so it's effect is
                                      > limited. A Houston AC generates more hot water than even a swimming pool
                                      can
                                      > absorb, even using spray bars for night time cooling, a NASA engineer
                                      tried
                                      > it some years ago, and as he put it, he had the largest crab-boil in
                                      > Houston!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Sorry I don't have time to Google any of this, I'm just getting back from
                                      > vacation to several hundred e-mails and going from memory.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Kevin
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > _____
                                      >
                                      > From: Paul Archer [mailto:tigger@...]
                                      > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:31 PM
                                      > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                      > Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Kevin, you seem pretty well versed on the subject, so perhaps you can
                                      answer
                                      >
                                      > this question for me: (why) is the heat from the A/C itself not used in
                                      the
                                      > process? It seems to me that you could take cold (well, cool) water and
                                      run
                                      > it through a heat exchanger with the condenser coils (or whatever passes
                                      for
                                      >
                                      > condenser coils in an absorbtion unit), and then on to the solar
                                      collectors,
                                      >
                                      > for a gain in efficiency. Or is there something I'm missing with that?
                                      >
                                      > Paul
                                      >
                                      > 9:24pm, Kevin Conlin wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> Hi Folks, I believe the solar powered system in the Caribbean was a
                                      solar
                                      >> thermal absorbtion chiller. There have been several attempts to do
                                      this,
                                      >> usually using a commercial absorbtion chiller that uses solar hot
                                      water
                                      > from
                                      >> evacuated tube collectors as either a pre-heat with natural gas final
                                      >> heater, or using the chiller at lower efficiencies with lower temp
                                      solar
                                      >> water. The absorbtion chillers are a very proven and extremely
                                      reliable
                                      >> process generally designed to use waste heat or stream in the low
                                      200'sF.
                                      >> They are known to run for 50 years or more as they have very few
                                      moving
                                      >> parts and very low energy consumption, most of which runs pumps. They
                                      are
                                      >> mostly found in large factories or plants, I remember seeing a large
                                      one
                                      > at
                                      >> a Procter & Gamble paper plant that used waste heat from a
                                      cogeneration
                                      >> turbine. The plant maintenance crew loved it because it ran so quiet
                                      and
                                      >> smooth, and never required attention. Unfortunately, this process is
                                      not
                                      >> scaled small enough for residential use, I think the smallest units
                                      are 20
                                      >> tons, but with lower evacuated tube collectors coming out of China, it
                                      may
                                      >> be practical for commercial scale systems.
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> There was one system at NASA over 20 years ago, but like most demo
                                      > projects,
                                      >> it was very expensive, over engineered and under built. There was also
                                      a
                                      >> home builder here on Houston that offered solar AC in the late 70's,
                                      >> Morgan-Barnhart was their name, and they used tracking solar thermal
                                      > trough
                                      >> concentrators mounted on the roof. (Nice aesthetics!) They also
                                      failed,
                                      >> due to various mechanical and other problems, as well as the
                                      relatively
                                      > poor
                                      >> and often cloudy solar resource here in Houston during the summer.
                                      > Tracking
                                      >> collectors are better suited to cloudless regimes like west Texas, NM,
                                      AZ
                                      >> etc..
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> I believe there are some residential systems being offered in Japan,
                                      but I
                                      >> have no first hand knowledge of them. Solar A/C has long been one of
                                      the
                                      >> holy grail's in the industry, it seems like a practical compromise
                                      using
                                      >> proven technologies would be a solar driven geothermal system.
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> That's all I can recall from memory, it would be great if someone
                                      would
                                      >> commercialize the technology and do it right, after all, they've been
                                      >> working on it for 30 years!
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Kevin
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> _____
                                      >>
                                      >> From: evelyn sardina [mailto:evelynsardi na@
                                      > <mailto:evelynsardi na%40yahoo. com> yahoo.com]
                                      >> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 5:53 PM
                                      >> To: hreg@yahoogroups. <mailto:hreg% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                      com
                                      >> Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar powered A/C
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> A freind just got back form Costa Rica. He brought back a picture of a
                                      > long
                                      >> black hose that sits on top of a roof in a work house in the farm
                                      where he
                                      >> stayed. It provided all the hot water needs for the shed. It was
                                      rolled up
                                      >> in many layers and was just sitting on top of the roof. I think it was
                                      > tied
                                      >> to the roof. I asked him to email to the group but he unsuscribed. It
                                      >> seems to me we make things that have simple solutions simply too
                                      >> complicated. I am not suggesting a hose on top of our houses but a
                                      > tankless
                                      >> water heater or solar water heater?
                                      >>
                                      >> Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@pol. <mailto:ajthomann% 40pol.net>
                                      net> wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> I had lunch last week with a friend whose family still lives in the
                                      island
                                      >> of
                                      >> Dominique. As I understood it, all (new?) houses there must harvest
                                      >> rainwater
                                      >> and use photovoltaics on their roofs. Sorry, I have no details.
                                      >>
                                      >> Ariel
                                      >> - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
                                      > since
                                      >> otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                                      >> - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead
                                      7
                                      >> generations.
                                      >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                      >>
                                      >>> Hey Steven:
                                      >>>
                                      >>> I recall about 10 (maybe more?) years ago hearing about a hotel in
                                      the
                                      >>> Caribbean using solar a/c, but I didn't hear anything more about
                                      it. It
                                      >>> seems like we would hear more about it if it were successful.
                                      However, my
                                      >>> cynical side makes me wonder if information is being suppressed. I
                                      would
                                      >> also
                                      >>> be very interested in more information. I wonder what effect scale
                                      has on
                                      >>> such a system. i.e. Would it be suitable for residential use. It
                                      bothers
                                      >> me
                                      >>> to hear our a/c sucking up energy all summer long (but not enough
                                      to turn
                                      >> it
                                      >>> off & sweat).
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Welcome to the group.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Henry
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Steven M <marzolian@yahoo. <mailto:marzolian% 40yahoo.com>
                                      com> wrote:
                                      >>> Greetings, all.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> I was raised in Venezuela, where it's no hotter than Houston but
                                      it lasts
                                      >> all
                                      >>> year round :-). Both there and in Texas, I have often
                                      >>> thought of all the energy being used just to keep things cool
                                      indoors.
                                      >>> Wouldn't it be better if there was an A/C system that sat on the
                                      roof and
                                      >>> worked better the hotter it got?
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Years later, on the first day of my first class in thermodynamics,
                                      the
                                      >>> professor asked us to write down briefly what we knew about the
                                      >>> subject, and what we hoped to learn. Alas, the class didn't give
                                      me any
                                      >> easy
                                      >>> answers to that question, but I'm still interested,
                                      >>> especially with our electric rate hikes here in Houston the past
                                      >>> couple of years.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Then, a few weeks ago I saw an article about a solar-powered
                                      >>> airconditioner. It was not just solar cells connected to a
                                      >>> conventional (Freon-type) unit, and it's not a "swamp
                                      cooler", but there
                                      >>> wasn't enough information to understand how it works.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> I once read somewhere that the Houston metro area has the largest
                                      >>> concentration of A/C devices in the world. Don't know if it's
                                      true, but
                                      > it
                                      >>> makes sense. We're so big, our electric rates are so high, and
                                      it's so
                                      >> hot,
                                      >>> that if those systems make sense anywhere, it would be here. Or
                                      would it?
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Yesterday I went went looking online. There are lots of proposals
                                      out
                                      >> there,
                                      >>> but I didn't find any local contractors, nor any aystems that seem
                                      to be
                                      >>> available as immediate replacements for conventional A/C.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the status of
                                      solar
                                      >>> powered air conditioners? Is there any likelihood that they'll be
                                      more
                                      >>> practical any time soon?
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Steven Marzuola
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> _____
                                      >>
                                      >> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
                                      >> with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----
                                      > "Looking down the barrel of a loaded gun...
                                      > Just to see where the bullets come from!"
                                      > --Screaming Blue Messiahs--
                                      > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                      "All right...initialize the GBL."
                                      "How do you do that, then?" Terry Pratchett
                                      "It...it means pull the great big lever." from "Hogfather"
                                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                    • dixie_inspiration
                                      The manufacturer I represent is in this business and has done some big projects in CA using high efficient evacuated-tube solar collectors to power A/C. The
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jul 11, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        The manufacturer I represent is in this business and has done some big
                                        projects in CA using high efficient evacuated-tube solar collectors to
                                        power A/C. The principle is exactly like Kevin discribled. The
                                        efficiency is much better than PV powered A/C!

                                        First thing first, solar thermal is the most mature and efficient solar
                                        technology. Everyone should have it when talking about solar! Please
                                        visit www.dixiesolar.com
                                      • David Power
                                        The Thermal flow system has been popular with the green builders in the Austin area for years. I first ran across it in 2000 when we were that the Austin Home
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jul 11, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment

                                          The Thermal flow system has been popular with the green builders in the Austin area for years. I first ran across it in 2000 when we were that the Austin Home tours, it was at a home designed by Peter Pfeiffer, one of Austin ’s top green architects.

                                           

                                          I don’t have a direct reference for the system as my house was a new build and this was the system we chose it have installed (much fun with the builder over that). The pricing was actually less than the builders spec’ed system because it’s a much smaller sized system than the schedule J called for, the builder was going to put in dual 6 ton systems and we installed a 4 ton (main house) and a 3 ton (Master suite) usage has shown we could of gotten by with a 3 and a 2.5. The compressors themselves are in a separate box from the cooling tower so you can add several zones of varying sizes to meet your needs.

                                           

                                          We did look at a geo thermal system but, being in the Texas hill country, the cost to dig out the field in the rock was outrageous. We are a long way from the water table and have seen some other systems that were put into “dry” rock holes that had poor performance. If I remember correctly Mac (the owner inventor) has installed some of his smaller cooling towers on some geo thermal plants that were having performance issues.

                                           

                                          The system has been very reliable, keeps the house comfortable even when it gets over 100 degrees and the electrical consumption seems to be quite reasonable compared to my neighbors homes.

                                          I do have a passive solar design, lots of radiant barriers and over hangs,  but the east side of my house (which faces the lake) is almost 80% windows (big heat leak there at R2.5-3 for the windows). We feed it softened water and just wash out the built up salt every couple years (very minor buildup so far), its easy to do as the system cover just slides off.

                                           

                                          Ill be putting one on my next house as well.

                                           

                                          We use a 95% efficient propane furnace for heat

                                           

                                           David

                                           

                                           


                                          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
                                          Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 8:13 AM
                                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                                           

                                          That’s an interesting system!  I took a look at the webpage. 

                                          Does your experience jibe with their claims on energy/cost savings?  i.e., what % drop in summer kwh usage did you see vs. whatever you had in there before (what SEER was the old system?)?

                                           

                                          When you made your decision to purchase this, did you also look at geothermal heat pumps?  What made you decide to go this route instead?  (This conceptually seems a lot like the geothermal heat pumps in the sense of using water in the cooling cycle, but this system does not have a heating cycle for winter).

                                           

                                          Did the system cost a lot more than conventional units, and do you believe it has paid for itself in savings?

                                           

                                          Thanks,


                                          Robert Johnston

                                           


                                          From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of David Power
                                          Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 11:05 PM
                                          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                          Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                                           

                                          Paul,

                                          Take a look at http://www.thermalf low.net/ for a look at an efficient use a of water cooled residential ac. They are made in Austin .

                                          I’ve had one on my house for several years and have been very pleased with the performance. They do have a de-superheater option as well that is used as a pool and domestic hot water system.

                                           

                                          David

                                           

                                           


                                          From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Kevin Conlin
                                          Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:50 PM
                                          To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                          Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                                           

                                          Hi Paul,  I’m afraid that’s over my head.  I’m familiar with the technology, but can’t explain it chemically, perhaps one of the smarter engineers can explain it.  The absorbtion chillers do not have conventional compressors, the heat is used to drive a chemical process using lithium bromide where I think it is vaporized, then used to absorb heat as the reaction reverses. It is a chemical phase change process, not a vapor/compression process.

                                           

                                          With regard to using water to cool the Freon in a conventional AC unit, I think those do exist, they are called de-superheaters and they make domestic hot water by pre-cooling the Freon before it enters the coils.  The problem is there is more hot water than the household can use, so it’s effect is limited. A Houston AC generates more hot water than even a swimming pool can absorb, even using spray bars for night time cooling, a NASA engineer tried it some years ago, and as he put it, he had the largest crab-boil in Houston !

                                           

                                          Sorry I don’t have time to Google any of this, I’m just getting back from vacation to several hundred e-mails and going from memory.

                                           

                                        • Robert Johnston
                                          Thanks for sharing your experience. I already have contacted the manufacturer to try to learn more. Seems that they don t have a dealer in this area, but can
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jul 11, 2007
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                                            Thanks for sharing your experience.  I already have contacted the manufacturer to try to learn more.  Seems that they don’t have a dealer in this area, but can work with any contractor who is willing to work with them. 

                                             


                                            Robert

                                             


                                            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of David Power
                                            Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 4:18 PM
                                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                                             

                                            The Thermal flow system has been popular with the green builders in the Austin area for years. I first ran across it in 2000 when we were that the Austin Home tours, it was at a home designed by Peter Pfeiffer, one of Austin ’s top green architects.

                                             

                                            I don’t have a direct reference for the system as my house was a new build and this was the system we chose it have installed (much fun with the builder over that). The pricing was actually less than the builders spec’ed system because it’s a much smaller sized system than the schedule J called for, the builder was going to put in dual 6 ton systems and we installed a 4 ton (main house) and a 3 ton (Master suite) usage has shown we could of gotten by with a 3 and a 2.5. The compressors themselves are in a separate box from the cooling tower so you can add several zones of varying sizes to meet your needs.

                                             

                                            We did look at a geo thermal system but, being in the Texas hill country, the cost to dig out the field in the rock was outrageous. We are a long way from the water table and have seen some other systems that were put into “dry” rock holes that had poor performance. If I remember correctly Mac (the owner inventor) has installed some of his smaller cooling towers on some geo thermal plants that were having performance issues.

                                             

                                            The system has been very reliable, keeps the house comfortable even when it gets over 100 degrees and the electrical consumption seems to be quite reasonable compared to my neighbors homes.

                                            I do have a passive solar design, lots of radiant barriers and over hangs,  but the east side of my house (which faces the lake) is almost 80% windows (big heat leak there at R2.5-3 for the windows). We feed it softened water and just wash out the built up salt every couple years (very minor buildup so far), its easy to do as the system cover just slides off.

                                             

                                            Ill be putting one on my next house as well.

                                             

                                            We use a 95% efficient propane furnace for heat

                                             

                                             David

                                             

                                             


                                            From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
                                            Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 8:13 AM
                                            To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                            Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                                             

                                            That’s an interesting system!  I took a look at the webpage. 

                                            Does your experience jibe with their claims on energy/cost savings?  i.e., what % drop in summer kwh usage did you see vs. whatever you had in there before (what SEER was the old system?)?

                                             

                                            When you made your decision to purchase this, did you also look at geothermal heat pumps?  What made you decide to go this route instead?  (This conceptually seems a lot like the geothermal heat pumps in the sense of using water in the cooling cycle, but this system does not have a heating cycle for winter).

                                             

                                            Did the system cost a lot more than conventional units, and do you believe it has paid for itself in savings?

                                             

                                            Thanks,


                                            Robert Johnston

                                             


                                            From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of David Power
                                            Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 11:05 PM
                                            To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                            Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                                             

                                            Paul,

                                            Take a look at http://www.thermalf low.net/ for a look at an efficient use a of water cooled residential ac. They are made in Austin .

                                            I’ve had one on my house for several years and have been very pleased with the performance. They do have a de-superheater option as well that is used as a pool and domestic hot water system.

                                             

                                            David

                                             

                                             


                                            From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Kevin Conlin
                                            Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:50 PM
                                            To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                            Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar powered A/C

                                             

                                            Hi Paul,  I’m afraid that’s over my head.  I’m familiar with the technology, but can’t explain it chemically, perhaps one of the smarter engineers can explain it.  The absorbtion chillers do not have conventional compressors, the heat is used to drive a chemical process using lithium bromide where I think it is vaporized, then used to absorb heat as the reaction reverses. It is a chemical phase change process, not a vapor/compression process.

                                             

                                            With regard to using water to cool the Freon in a conventional AC unit, I think those do exist, they are called de-superheaters and they make domestic hot water by pre-cooling the Freon before it enters the coils.  The problem is there is more hot water than the household can use, so it’s effect is limited. A Houston AC generates more hot water than even a swimming pool can absorb, even using spray bars for night time cooling, a NASA engineer tried it some years ago, and as he put it, he had the largest crab-boil in Houston !

                                             

                                            Sorry I don’t have time to Google any of this, I’m just getting back from vacation to several hundred e-mails and going from memory.

                                             

                                          • David Armenta
                                            I don t know if anyone knows about this proposal but it is exciting and I hope the City Council approves of such plans. Enjoy the read...
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jul 16, 2007
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                                              I don't know if anyone knows about this proposal but it is exciting and I hope the City Council approves of such plans. Enjoy the read...

                                              http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/07/houston_gets_in.php

                                              or

                                              http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/energy/4964940.html


                                              David Armenta
                                              Computer Technician
                                              Texas A&M University
                                              Information Management Services
                                              mobile: 713.515.2369
                                              burner_22@...


                                              Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
                                            • Jim & Janet
                                              This in no way reflects on treehugger.com. I logged on to read the article like many did. What s different is that I have my pc set to warn me any time a
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jul 16, 2007
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                                                This in no way reflects on treehugger.com.
                                                I logged on to read the article like many did. What's different is that I have my pc set to warn me any time a cookie is about to be set and ask my permission.
                                                The treehugger site attempted to load some sort of porn mal-ware onto my pc as soon as I denied approval of advertising cookies.
                                                All you need, 99% of the time, is the first cookie set by the www site. All other cookies are unnecessary unless you are trying to access a calculator or some other feature on the site. By automatically allowing all cookies, you are often allowing ads or tracking software that moniters, and send back to the host computer, info about what sites you visit. Maybe harmless maybe not. If the www site has been hacked without the owners knowledge, this is what can happen.
                                                On Firefox and IE, go to tools/internet options/privacy and change the settings there. You will be surprised how many cookies are set every day when you can see them coming.
                                                I know this is not a PC discussion site but I thought site visitors should be aware of this.
                                                Jim Duncan
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 2:59 PM
                                                Subject: [hreg] Houston Gets In The Wind - A Third Of The Way


                                                I don't know if anyone knows about this proposal but it is exciting and I hope the City Council approves of such plans. Enjoy the read...

                                                http://www.treehugg er.com/files/ 2007/07/houston_ gets_in.php

                                                or

                                                http://www.chron. com/disp/ story.mpl/ business/ energy/4964940. html


                                                David Armenta
                                                Computer Technician
                                                Texas A&M University
                                                Information Management Services
                                                mobile: 713.515.2369
                                                burner_22@yahoo. com


                                                Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.

                                              • Kevin Conlin
                                                Thanks for the head s up, Jim! ________________________ Kevin Conlin Solarcraft, Inc. 4007 C Greenbriar Stafford, TX 77477-4536 Local (281) 340-1224 Toll Free
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jul 16, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment

                                                  Thanks for the head’s up, Jim!

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  ________________________

                                                  Kevin Conlin

                                                  Solarcraft, Inc.

                                                  4007 C Greenbriar

                                                  Stafford, TX 77477-4536

                                                  Local (281) 340-1224

                                                  Toll Free (877) 340-1224

                                                  Fax 281 340 1230

                                                  Cell 281 960 8979

                                                  kconlin@...

                                                  www.solarcraft.net

                                                   

                                                  Please make a note of our new contact information above.

                                                   


                                                  From: Jim & Janet [mailto:jhd1@...]
                                                  Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 6:43 PM
                                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Houston Gets In The Wind - A Third Of The Way

                                                   

                                                  This in no way reflects on treehugger.com.

                                                  I logged on to read the article like many did. What's different is that I have my pc set to warn me any time a cookie is about to be set and ask my permission.

                                                  The treehugger site attempted to load some sort of porn mal-ware onto my pc as soon as I denied approval of advertising cookies.

                                                  All you need, 99% of the time, is the first cookie set by the www site. All other cookies are unnecessary unless you are trying to access a calculator or some other feature on the site. By automatically allowing all cookies, you are often allowing ads or tracking software that moniters, and send back to the host computer, info about what sites you visit. Maybe harmless maybe not. If the www site has been hacked without the owners knowledge, this is what can happen.

                                                  On Firefox and IE, go to tools/internet options/privacy and change the settings there. You will be surprised how many cookies are set every day when you can see them coming.

                                                  I know this is not a PC discussion site but I thought site visitors should be aware of this.

                                                  Jim Duncan

                                                   

                                                   

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  ----- Original Message -----

                                                  Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 2:59 PM

                                                  Subject: [hreg] Houston Gets In The Wind - A Third Of The Way

                                                   


                                                  I don't know if anyone knows about this proposal but it is exciting and I hope the City Council approves of such plans. Enjoy the read...

                                                  http://www.treehugg er.com/files/ 2007/07/houston_ gets_in.php

                                                  or

                                                  http://www.chron. com/disp/ story.mpl/ business/ energy/4964940. html


                                                  David Armenta
                                                  Computer Technician
                                                  Texas A&M University
                                                  Information Management Services
                                                  mobile: 713.515.2369
                                                  burner_22@yahoo. com


                                                  Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.

                                                • Steven Deterling
                                                  This proposal has passed. Houston will be heavily investing in wind energy: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/4979881.html Steve
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jul 20, 2007
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                                                    This proposal has passed. Houston will be heavily investing in wind energy:

                                                    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/4979881.html

                                                    Steve




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                                                  • Shafer, Mark B
                                                    This is fantastic news. This will be the inspiration for other cities and should reduce the price of wind energy as economy of scale kicks in the production
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jul 20, 2007
                                                    • 0 Attachment

                                                       This is fantastic news.  This will be the inspiration for other cities and should reduce the price of wind energy as economy of scale kicks in the production of the wind generation equipment.

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