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Solar hot water -> angled windows

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  • Ariel Thomann
    OK, here s my crazy idea, and it s one I haven t seen in any book on passive solar design. It goes back to my high-school physics and what I learned there
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 4, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      OK, here's my crazy idea, and it's one I haven't seen in any book on passive solar
      design. It goes back to my high-school physics and what I learned there about what
      happens to light when it hits glass. Normally it goes right on through, and that's what
      a window is all about. However, if you get your cheek against a window and look at the
      glass, you will see that a short distance from you it starts acting as a weak mirror,
      and as look at it further away, it acts totally as a mirror and you can't see anything
      on the other side. It's total reflection; check out the following:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_internal_reflection

      It seems to me that if you lean your window outward at the top (probably 10 degree angle
      suffices for your latitude; it will vary slightly depending on type of glass, will also
      be slightly different for UV and IR) it will reflect back out essentially all the direct
      sunlight (thus making your floor OUTside that window very hot...). That angle would be
      for noontime sun on the summer solstice; it would take substantially greater tilt to do
      the job at other times of the year and day. But you might find that your solar heat
      gain goes down a fair bit, at a relatively low cost.

      Side effect: when you look from inside out at night, you will see only ceiling
      reflections. And, oh, looking from outside in at night would be totally transparent
      (but you may need to do something to keep pets, kids and other retards from crashing
      into the glass -- adults too, I guess).

      I'm sure 99% of builders will think it's crazy, so discuss it instead with someone who
      knows optics better than I do. Enjoy.

      Let me know the outcome!

      Ariel
      - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
      there is NO ONE who will help.
      - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
      ------------------------------------

      > Cabana: Double french doors facing west, but with a veranda overhang of about 8
      > feet. Two largish windows facing south, toward the
      > harbor. None east.
      > Kid's house: Lots of windows and a couple of sliding glass doors facing south,
      > toward the harbor, some with verandas. One west, no overhang. Four east, no
      > overhang.
      > Our house: (just starting) Will have eight sliding glass doors
      > facing south, toward the harbor, with six of them under the veranda overhang of 13
      > feet. Five large windows with no overhang. Just two large windows and a glass door
      > facing west. Four windows and a glass door facing east.
      >
      >
      > On Oct 4, 2006, at 5:31 PM, Ariel Thomann wrote:
      >
      >> Do you have any large windows facing West, South, or East?
      >>
      >> Ariel
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
      >>> In the USVI, we are not required to use solar water heaters, but many people
      >>> do,
      >>> simply because the cost of electricity is so ridiculous. Would you believe
      >>> that the
      >>> kwh just went up to 30 cents in July???
      >>>
      >>> In answer to your question: we bought one 50 gallon solar water heater which
      >>> serves
      >>> the cabana (easily). The cost was 1895.00, and the rebate was 700.00. We also
      >>> bought two 80 gallon water heaters; they were 2450.00 each and the rebate on
      >>> this
      >>> size was 850.00 each.
      >>>
      >>> We are now trying to find the most efficient, hurricane resistant and cost
      >>> effective
      >>> way to use solar power for each of the three houses (cabana,
      >>> daughter/son-in-law,
      >>> ours). Any suggestions would be great!
      >>>
      >>> Susan
      >>>
      >>> On Oct 3, 2006, at 1:06 PM, Ariel Thomann wrote:
      >>>
      >>>> Oh, while on the subject of St. Thomas houses, I'd like to re- ignite an earlier
      >>>> 'string'. I understand in most of the Lesser Antilles houses are required to
      >>>> use
      >>>> solar
      >>>> water heaters (since they need to import all their fossil fuels at absurd
      >>>> costs).
      >>>> Is
      >>>> that true for St. Thomas? If so, how much do those systems
      >>>> cost there?
      >>>>
      >>>> Ariel
      >>>> - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one
      >>>> another, since otherwise
      >>>> there is NO ONE who will help.
      >>>> - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy.
      >>>> Think ahead 7
      >>>> generations.
      >>>> ------------------------------------
      >>>>
      >>>>> So, it sounds like you strap them down as tightly as possible, and then you
      >>>>> take
      >>>>> your
      >>>>> chances. From those of you with experience with putting PVs on your roof,
      >>>>> how
      >>>>> does
      >>>>> this affect your insurance?
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Susan, good luck w/ your St. Thomas house. (said w/ a little
      >>>>> envy) Let us know how
      >>>>> it works out. That is a little like hurricane ally.
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Susan Silvano
      What a cool idea! I ll have to find someone who knows about optics - it sounds like it could work....
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 4, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        What a cool idea! I'll have to find someone who knows about optics -
        it sounds like it could work....


        On Oct 4, 2006, at 6:42 PM, Ariel Thomann wrote:

        > OK, here's my crazy idea, and it's one I haven't seen in any book
        > on passive solar
        > design. It goes back to my high-school physics and what I learned
        > there about what
        > happens to light when it hits glass. Normally it goes right on
        > through, and that's what
        > a window is all about. However, if you get your cheek against a
        > window and look at the
        > glass, you will see that a short distance from you it starts acting
        > as a weak mirror,
        > and as look at it further away, it acts totally as a mirror and you
        > can't see anything
        > on the other side. It's total reflection; check out the following:
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_internal_reflection
        >
        > It seems to me that if you lean your window outward at the top
        > (probably 10 degree angle
        > suffices for your latitude; it will vary slightly depending on type
        > of glass, will also
        > be slightly different for UV and IR) it will reflect back out
        > essentially all the direct
        > sunlight (thus making your floor OUTside that window very hot...).
        > That angle would be
        > for noontime sun on the summer solstice; it would take
        > substantially greater tilt to do
        > the job at other times of the year and day. But you might find
        > that your solar heat
        > gain goes down a fair bit, at a relatively low cost.
        >
        > Side effect: when you look from inside out at night, you will see
        > only ceiling
        > reflections. And, oh, looking from outside in at night would be
        > totally transparent
        > (but you may need to do something to keep pets, kids and other
        > retards from crashing
        > into the glass -- adults too, I guess).
        >
        > I'm sure 99% of builders will think it's crazy, so discuss it
        > instead with someone who
        > knows optics better than I do. Enjoy.
        >
        > Let me know the outcome!
        >
        > Ariel
        > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one
        > another, since otherwise
        > there is NO ONE who will help.
        > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think
        > ahead 7 generations.
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >> Cabana: Double french doors facing west, but with a veranda
        >> overhang of about 8
        >> feet. Two largish windows facing south, toward the
        >> harbor. None east.
        >> Kid's house: Lots of windows and a couple of sliding glass
        >> doors facing south,
        >> toward the harbor, some with verandas. One west, no overhang.
        >> Four east, no
        >> overhang.
        >> Our house: (just starting) Will have eight sliding glass doors
        >> facing south, toward the harbor, with six of them under the
        >> veranda overhang of 13
        >> feet. Five large windows with no overhang. Just two large
        >> windows and a glass door
        >> facing west. Four windows and a glass door facing east.
        >>
        >>
        >> On Oct 4, 2006, at 5:31 PM, Ariel Thomann wrote:
        >>
        >>> Do you have any large windows facing West, South, or East?
        >>>
        >>> Ariel
        >>> ------------------------------------
        >>>
        >>>> In the USVI, we are not required to use solar water heaters,
        >>>> but many people
        >>>> do,
        >>>> simply because the cost of electricity is so ridiculous.
        >>>> Would you believe
        >>>> that the
        >>>> kwh just went up to 30 cents in July???
        >>>>
        >>>> In answer to your question: we bought one 50 gallon solar
        >>>> water heater which
        >>>> serves
        >>>> the cabana (easily). The cost was 1895.00, and the rebate
        >>>> was 700.00. We also
        >>>> bought two 80 gallon water heaters; they were 2450.00 each
        >>>> and the rebate on
        >>>> this
        >>>> size was 850.00 each.
        >>>>
        >>>> We are now trying to find the most efficient, hurricane
        >>>> resistant and cost
        >>>> effective
        >>>> way to use solar power for each of the three houses (cabana,
        >>>> daughter/son-in-law,
        >>>> ours). Any suggestions would be great!
        >>>>
        >>>> Susan
        >>>>
        >>>> On Oct 3, 2006, at 1:06 PM, Ariel Thomann wrote:
        >>>>
        >>>>> Oh, while on the subject of St. Thomas houses, I'd like to re-
        >>>>> ignite an earlier
        >>>>> 'string'. I understand in most of the Lesser Antilles houses
        >>>>> are required to
        >>>>> use
        >>>>> solar
        >>>>> water heaters (since they need to import all their fossil
        >>>>> fuels at absurd
        >>>>> costs).
        >>>>> Is
        >>>>> that true for St. Thomas? If so, how much do those systems
        >>>>> cost there?
        >>>>>
        >>>>> Ariel
        >>>>> - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one
        >>>>> another, since otherwise
        >>>>> there is NO ONE who will help.
        >>>>> - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy.
        >>>>> Think ahead 7
        >>>>> generations.
        >>>>> ------------------------------------
        >>>>>
        >>>>>> So, it sounds like you strap them down as tightly as
        >>>>>> possible, and then you
        >>>>>> take
        >>>>>> your
        >>>>>> chances. From those of you with experience with putting PVs
        >>>>>> on your roof,
        >>>>>> how
        >>>>>> does
        >>>>>> this affect your insurance?
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> Susan, good luck w/ your St. Thomas house. (said w/ a little
        >>>>>> envy) Let us know how
        >>>>>> it works out. That is a little like hurricane ally.
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Lunce
        That reflective detail was the hallmark of Gunnar Birkerts. The detail involves using two curved mirrors to bring indirect light into the space. He used that
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 4, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          That reflective detail was the hallmark of Gunnar Birkerts. The detail
          involves using two curved mirrors to bring indirect light into the
          space. He used that detail on many of his projects (widely published
          once, but I was not able to find a site with that famous detail on short
          notice)

          Many years ago, I experienced that detail at the Museum of Glass at
          Corning, NY. It is a fascinating detail - however creating an extremely
          busy space inside. Through the curved mirror surfaces one would
          experience the motion of cars moving up and curved along in most
          fasinating directions....It works well in a space that can stand that
          much movement. Unfortunately for much of the Corning glass museum they
          were showing very small fine objects - I remember one room where they
          showcased delicate escavated 2nd century glassware. To avoid the
          movement from exterior, they used a thin curtain floor to ceiling on the
          inside of those rooms which "quiet down" the space. I remember feeling
          enormous disappointment then, thinking that the application did not
          serve the contents that the space was designed for. And also that the
          brilliance of that detail was eradicated by the use of a simple
          semi-sheer curtain. Now, more than 20 years later, my interpretation is
          somewhat altered -the architect succeeded in bringing the indirect
          light, and the user succeeded in altering the space to suit the exhibit
          eliminating the distractions and soften the light to a soft glow.

          Lunce

          Ariel Thomann wrote:

          > OK, here's my crazy idea, and it's one I haven't seen in any book on
          > passive solar
          > design. It goes back to my high-school physics and what I learned
          > there about what
          > happens to light when it hits glass. Normally it goes right on
          > through, and that's what
          > a window is all about. However, if you get your cheek against a window
          > and look at the
          > glass, you will see that a short distance from you it starts acting as
          > a weak mirror,
          > and as look at it further away, it acts totally as a mirror and you
          > can't see anything
          > on the other side. It's total reflection; check out the following:
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_internal_reflection
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_internal_reflection>
          >
          > It seems to me that if you lean your window outward at the top
          > (probably 10 degree angle
          > suffices for your latitude; it will vary slightly depending on type of
          > glass, will also
          > be slightly different for UV and IR) it will reflect back out
          > essentially all the direct
          > sunlight (thus making your floor OUTside that window very hot...).
          > That angle would be
          > for noontime sun on the summer solstice; it would take substantially
          > greater tilt to do
          > the job at other times of the year and day. But you might find that
          > your solar heat
          > gain goes down a fair bit, at a relatively low cost.
          >
          > Side effect: when you look from inside out at night, you will see only
          > ceiling
          > reflections. And, oh, looking from outside in at night would be
          > totally transparent
          > (but you may need to do something to keep pets, kids and other retards
          > from crashing
          > into the glass -- adults too, I guess).
          >
          > I'm sure 99% of builders will think it's crazy, so discuss it instead
          > with someone who
          > knows optics better than I do. Enjoy.
          >
          > Let me know the outcome!
          >
          > Ariel
          > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
          > since otherwise
          > there is NO ONE who will help.
          > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead
          > 7 generations.
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > > Cabana: Double french doors facing west, but with a veranda overhang
          > of about 8
          > > feet. Two largish windows facing south, toward the
          > > harbor. None east.
          > > Kid's house: Lots of windows and a couple of sliding glass doors
          > facing south,
          > > toward the harbor, some with verandas. One west, no overhang. Four
          > east, no
          > > overhang.
          > > Our house: (just starting) Will have eight sliding glass doors
          > > facing south, toward the harbor, with six of them under the veranda
          > overhang of 13
          > > feet. Five large windows with no overhang. Just two large windows
          > and a glass door
          > > facing west. Four windows and a glass door facing east.
          > >
          > >
          > > On Oct 4, 2006, at 5:31 PM, Ariel Thomann wrote:
          > >
          > >> Do you have any large windows facing West, South, or East?
          > >>
          > >> Ariel
          > >> ------------------------------------
          > >>
          > >>> In the USVI, we are not required to use solar water heaters, but
          > many people
          > >>> do,
          > >>> simply because the cost of electricity is so ridiculous. Would you
          > believe
          > >>> that the
          > >>> kwh just went up to 30 cents in July???
          > >>>
          > >>> In answer to your question: we bought one 50 gallon solar water
          > heater which
          > >>> serves
          > >>> the cabana (easily). The cost was 1895.00, and the rebate was
          > 700.00. We also
          > >>> bought two 80 gallon water heaters; they were 2450.00 each and the
          > rebate on
          > >>> this
          > >>> size was 850.00 each.
          > >>>
          > >>> We are now trying to find the most efficient, hurricane resistant
          > and cost
          > >>> effective
          > >>> way to use solar power for each of the three houses (cabana,
          > >>> daughter/son-in-law,
          > >>> ours). Any suggestions would be great!
          > >>>
          > >>> Susan
          > >>>
          > >>> On Oct 3, 2006, at 1:06 PM, Ariel Thomann wrote:
          > >>>
          > >>>> Oh, while on the subject of St. Thomas houses, I'd like to re-
          > ignite an earlier
          > >>>> 'string'. I understand in most of the Lesser Antilles houses are
          > required to
          > >>>> use
          > >>>> solar
          > >>>> water heaters (since they need to import all their fossil fuels
          > at absurd
          > >>>> costs).
          > >>>> Is
          > >>>> that true for St. Thomas? If so, how much do those systems
          > >>>> cost there?
          > >>>>
          > >>>> Ariel
          > >>>> - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one
          > >>>> another, since otherwise
          > >>>> there is NO ONE who will help.
          > >>>> - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy.
          > >>>> Think ahead 7
          > >>>> generations.
          > >>>> ------------------------------------
          > >>>>
          > >>>>> So, it sounds like you strap them down as tightly as possible,
          > and then you
          > >>>>> take
          > >>>>> your
          > >>>>> chances. From those of you with experience with putting PVs on
          > your roof,
          > >>>>> how
          > >>>>> does
          > >>>>> this affect your insurance?
          > >>>>>
          > >>>>> Susan, good luck w/ your St. Thomas house. (said w/ a little
          > >>>>> envy) Let us know how
          > >>>>> it works out. That is a little like hurricane ally.
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
        • Henry H. Haynes
          If you do, open them & enjoy that great Caribbean breeze. HHH _____ From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ariel Thomann Sent:
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 5, 2006
          • 0 Attachment

            If you do, open them & enjoy that great Caribbean breeze.

             

            HHH

             


            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ariel Thomann
            Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 4:32 PM
            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: susans@...; henryhh@...
            Subject: Re: [hreg] From hurricane resistant PV systems -> solar hot water

             

            Do you have any large windows facing West, South, or East?

            Ariel
            - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
            there is NO ONE who will help.
            - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
            ------------ --------- --------- ------

            > In the USVI, we are not required to use solar water heaters, but many
            people do,
            > simply because the cost of electricity is so ridiculous. Would you believe
            that the
            > kwh just went up to 30 cents in July???
            >
            > In answer to your question: we bought one 50 gallon solar water heater
            which serves
            > the cabana (easily). The cost was 1895.00, and the rebate was 700.00. We
            also
            > bought two 80 gallon water heaters; they were 2450.00 each and the rebate
            on this
            > size was 850.00 each.
            >
            > We are now trying to find the most efficient, hurricane resistant and cost
            effective
            > way to use solar power for each of the three houses (cabana, daughter/son- in-law,
            > ours). Any suggestions would be great!
            >
            > Susan
            >
            > On Oct 3, 2006, at 1:06 PM, Ariel Thomann wrote:
            >
            >> Oh, while on the subject of St.
            Thomas houses, I'd like to re-
            >> ignite an earlier
            >> 'string'. I understand in most of the Lesser
            Antilles houses are required to use
            >> solar
            >> water heaters (since they need to import all their fossil fuels at
            absurd costs).
            >> Is
            >> that true for St. Thomas ?
            If so, how much do those systems cost there?
            >>
            >> Ariel
            >> - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one
            >> another, since otherwise
            >> there is NO ONE who will help.
            >> - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead
            7
            >> generations.
            >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
            >>
            >>> So, it sounds like you strap them down as tightly as possible, and
            then you take
            >>> your
            >>> chances. From those of you with experience with putting PVs on
            your roof, how
            >>> does
            >>> this affect your insurance?
            >>>
            >>> Susan, good luck w/ your St.
            Thomas house. (said w/ a little
            >>> envy) Let us know how
            >>> it works out. That is a little like hurricane ally.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

          • Andrew McCalla
            All, See attached for a testimonial image from a hurricane-surviving array. Notice that most all of the shingles have been removed, but the array is intact.
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 5, 2006
            • 0 Attachment

              All,

               

              See attached for a testimonial image from a hurricane-surviving array.  Notice that most all of the shingles have been removed, but the array is intact.

               

              Essentially, a system can be engineered to stay put in most any set of conditions reasonable.  The key there is “engineered”.   Uplift loads and pullout strengths can be carefully calculated, but I think the main problem for an array in one of these storms, against which safeguards are difficult to implement, is flying debris.

               

              Andrew H. McCalla

              NABCEP Certified Solar PV System Installer (TM)

               

              Meridian Energy Systems

              2300 S. Lamar, Ste. 107

              Austin, TX   78704

               

              Voice: (512) 448-0055

              Fax:    (512) 448-0045

              www.meridiansolar.com

               

            • Susan Silvano
              Yes, I ve heard about the problems with flying debris, and know that for some people, the solution is to take the panels down, but that is way too big a job
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 5, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Yes, I've heard about the problems with flying debris, and know that for some people, the solution is to take the panels down, but that is way too big a job when you have lots!!


                On Oct 5, 2006, at 9:15 AM, Andrew McCalla wrote:

                All,

                 

                See attached for a testimonial image from a hurricane-surviving array.  Notice that most all of the shingles have been removed, but the array is intact.

                 

                Essentially, a system can be engineered to stay put in most any set of conditions reasonable.  The key there is “engineered”.   Uplift loads and pullout strengths can be carefully calculated, but I think the main problem for an array in one of these storms, against which safeguards are difficult to implement, is flying debris.

                 

                Andrew H. McCalla

                NABCEP Certified Solar PV System Installer (TM)

                 

                Meridian Energy Systems

                2300 S. Lamar, Ste. 107

                Austin, TX   78704

                 

                Voice: (512) 448-0055

                Fax:    (512) 448-0045

                www.meridiansolar.com

                 

                <Hurricane Array.jpg>

              • Susan Silvano
                Thanks, Lunce. I ll do some more research on Bikerts. I hate to sound like a dummy, but would the curtain have to be drawn all day/ night to quiet down the
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 5, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks, Lunce. I'll do some more research on Bikerts. I hate to
                  sound like a dummy, but would the curtain have to be drawn all day/
                  night to "quiet down" the space?

                  On Oct 4, 2006, at 9:59 PM, Lunce wrote:

                  > That reflective detail was the hallmark of Gunnar Birkerts. The
                  > detail
                  > involves using two curved mirrors to bring indirect light into the
                  > space. He used that detail on many of his projects (widely published
                  > once, but I was not able to find a site with that famous detail on
                  > short
                  > notice)
                  >
                  > Many years ago, I experienced that detail at the Museum of Glass at
                  > Corning, NY. It is a fascinating detail - however creating an
                  > extremely
                  > busy space inside. Through the curved mirror surfaces one would
                  > experience the motion of cars moving up and curved along in most
                  > fasinating directions....It works well in a space that can stand that
                  > much movement. Unfortunately for much of the Corning glass museum
                  > they
                  > were showing very small fine objects - I remember one room where they
                  > showcased delicate escavated 2nd century glassware. To avoid the
                  > movement from exterior, they used a thin curtain floor to ceiling
                  > on the
                  > inside of those rooms which "quiet down" the space. I remember
                  > feeling
                  > enormous disappointment then, thinking that the application did not
                  > serve the contents that the space was designed for. And also that the
                  > brilliance of that detail was eradicated by the use of a simple
                  > semi-sheer curtain. Now, more than 20 years later, my
                  > interpretation is
                  > somewhat altered -the architect succeeded in bringing the indirect
                  > light, and the user succeeded in altering the space to suit the
                  > exhibit
                  > eliminating the distractions and soften the light to a soft glow.
                  >
                  > Lunce
                  >
                  > Ariel Thomann wrote:
                  >
                  >> OK, here's my crazy idea, and it's one I haven't seen in any book on
                  >> passive solar
                  >> design. It goes back to my high-school physics and what I learned
                  >> there about what
                  >> happens to light when it hits glass. Normally it goes right on
                  >> through, and that's what
                  >> a window is all about. However, if you get your cheek against a
                  >> window
                  >> and look at the
                  >> glass, you will see that a short distance from you it starts
                  >> acting as
                  >> a weak mirror,
                  >> and as look at it further away, it acts totally as a mirror and you
                  >> can't see anything
                  >> on the other side. It's total reflection; check out the following:
                  >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_internal_reflection
                  >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_internal_reflection>
                  >>
                  >> It seems to me that if you lean your window outward at the top
                  >> (probably 10 degree angle
                  >> suffices for your latitude; it will vary slightly depending on
                  >> type of
                  >> glass, will also
                  >> be slightly different for UV and IR) it will reflect back out
                  >> essentially all the direct
                  >> sunlight (thus making your floor OUTside that window very hot...).
                  >> That angle would be
                  >> for noontime sun on the summer solstice; it would take substantially
                  >> greater tilt to do
                  >> the job at other times of the year and day. But you might find that
                  >> your solar heat
                  >> gain goes down a fair bit, at a relatively low cost.
                  >>
                  >> Side effect: when you look from inside out at night, you will see
                  >> only
                  >> ceiling
                  >> reflections. And, oh, looking from outside in at night would be
                  >> totally transparent
                  >> (but you may need to do something to keep pets, kids and other
                  >> retards
                  >> from crashing
                  >> into the glass -- adults too, I guess).
                  >>
                  >> I'm sure 99% of builders will think it's crazy, so discuss it instead
                  >> with someone who
                  >> knows optics better than I do. Enjoy.
                  >>
                  >> Let me know the outcome!
                  >>
                  >> Ariel
                  >> - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
                  >> since otherwise
                  >> there is NO ONE who will help.
                  >> - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think
                  >> ahead
                  >> 7 generations.
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >>> Cabana: Double french doors facing west, but with a veranda overhang
                  >> of about 8
                  >>> feet. Two largish windows facing south, toward the
                  >>> harbor. None east.
                  >>> Kid's house: Lots of windows and a couple of sliding glass doors
                  >> facing south,
                  >>> toward the harbor, some with verandas. One west, no overhang. Four
                  >> east, no
                  >>> overhang.
                  >>> Our house: (just starting) Will have eight sliding glass doors
                  >>> facing south, toward the harbor, with six of them under the veranda
                  >> overhang of 13
                  >>> feet. Five large windows with no overhang. Just two large windows
                  >> and a glass door
                  >>> facing west. Four windows and a glass door facing east.
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> On Oct 4, 2006, at 5:31 PM, Ariel Thomann wrote:
                  >>>
                  >>>> Do you have any large windows facing West, South, or East?
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Ariel
                  >>>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>>
                  >>>>> In the USVI, we are not required to use solar water heaters, but
                  >> many people
                  >>>>> do,
                  >>>>> simply because the cost of electricity is so ridiculous. Would you
                  >> believe
                  >>>>> that the
                  >>>>> kwh just went up to 30 cents in July???
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> In answer to your question: we bought one 50 gallon solar water
                  >> heater which
                  >>>>> serves
                  >>>>> the cabana (easily). The cost was 1895.00, and the rebate was
                  >> 700.00. We also
                  >>>>> bought two 80 gallon water heaters; they were 2450.00 each and the
                  >> rebate on
                  >>>>> this
                  >>>>> size was 850.00 each.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> We are now trying to find the most efficient, hurricane resistant
                  >> and cost
                  >>>>> effective
                  >>>>> way to use solar power for each of the three houses (cabana,
                  >>>>> daughter/son-in-law,
                  >>>>> ours). Any suggestions would be great!
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> Susan
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> On Oct 3, 2006, at 1:06 PM, Ariel Thomann wrote:
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>> Oh, while on the subject of St. Thomas houses, I'd like to re-
                  >> ignite an earlier
                  >>>>>> 'string'. I understand in most of the Lesser Antilles houses are
                  >> required to
                  >>>>>> use
                  >>>>>> solar
                  >>>>>> water heaters (since they need to import all their fossil fuels
                  >> at absurd
                  >>>>>> costs).
                  >>>>>> Is
                  >>>>>> that true for St. Thomas? If so, how much do those systems
                  >>>>>> cost there?
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> Ariel
                  >>>>>> - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one
                  >>>>>> another, since otherwise
                  >>>>>> there is NO ONE who will help.
                  >>>>>> - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy.
                  >>>>>> Think ahead 7
                  >>>>>> generations.
                  >>>>>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> So, it sounds like you strap them down as tightly as possible,
                  >> and then you
                  >>>>>>> take
                  >>>>>>> your
                  >>>>>>> chances. From those of you with experience with putting PVs on
                  >> your roof,
                  >>>>>>> how
                  >>>>>>> does
                  >>>>>>> this affect your insurance?
                  >>>>>>>
                  >>>>>>> Susan, good luck w/ your St. Thomas house. (said w/ a little
                  >>>>>>> envy) Let us know how
                  >>>>>>> it works out. That is a little like hurricane ally.
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • (no author)
                  Please note I ve changed the Subject title again -- tilted fits better than angled . Interesting. I ll have to google Gunnar Birkerts. I remember
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 5, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Please note I've changed the Subject title again -- 'tilted' fits better than 'angled'.

                    Interesting. I'll have to google Gunnar Birkerts. I remember discussing the tilted
                    window idea with the (strange but brilliant) late Roger Rasbach some 30 years ago, but
                    as I recall he wasn't interested in any ideas he hadn't incorporated into his "provident
                    planner" house in The Woodlands. By the way, if that house still exists at 2701
                    Wildwind, Wilding Estates, it would be interesting to visit it for next year's solar
                    tour.

                    But I digress. I'm proposing to reflect away direct sunlight when it is not wanted in
                    the house, yet allowing skylkight in. I think what you describe at the Corning Glass
                    museum is something else; I'm talking about cheaply just tilting plain old flat-glass
                    windows.

                    Ariel
                    - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                    there is NO ONE who will help.
                    - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                    ------------------------------------

                    > That reflective detail was the hallmark of Gunnar Birkerts. The detail involves
                    > using two curved mirrors to bring indirect light into the space. He used that detail
                    > on many of his projects (widely published once, but I was not able to find a site
                    > with that famous detail on short notice)
                    >
                    > Many years ago, I experienced that detail at the Museum of Glass at Corning, NY. It
                    > is a fascinating detail - however creating an extremely busy space inside. Through
                    > the curved mirror surfaces one would
                    > experience the motion of cars moving up and curved along in most
                    > fasinating directions....It works well in a space that can stand that much movement.
                    > Unfortunately for much of the Corning glass museum they were showing very small fine
                    > objects - I remember one room where they showcased delicate escavated 2nd century
                    > glassware. To avoid the movement from exterior, they used a thin curtain floor to
                    > ceiling on the inside of those rooms which "quiet down" the space. I remember
                    > feeling enormous disappointment then, thinking that the application did not serve
                    > the contents that the space was designed for. And also that the brilliance of that
                    > detail was eradicated by the use of a simple
                    > semi-sheer curtain. Now, more than 20 years later, my interpretation is somewhat
                    > altered -the architect succeeded in bringing the indirect light, and the user
                    > succeeded in altering the space to suit the exhibit eliminating the distractions and
                    > soften the light to a soft glow.
                    >
                    > Lunce
                    >
                    > Ariel Thomann wrote:
                    >
                    >> OK, here's my crazy idea, and it's one I haven't seen in any book on passive solar
                    >> design. It goes back to my high-school physics and what I learned there about what
                    >> happens to light when it hits glass. Normally it goes right on
                    >> through, and that's what
                    >> a window is all about. However, if you get your cheek against a window and look at
                    >> the
                    >> glass, you will see that a short distance from you it starts acting as a weak
                    >> mirror,
                    >> and as look at it further away, it acts totally as a mirror and you can't see
                    >> anything
                    >> on the other side. It's total reflection; check out the following:
                    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_internal_reflection
                    >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_internal_reflection>
                    >>
                    >> It seems to me that if you lean your window outward at the top
                    >> (probably 10 degree angle
                    >> suffices for your latitude; it will vary slightly depending on type of glass, will
                    >> also
                    >> be slightly different for UV and IR) it will reflect back out
                    >> essentially all the direct
                    >> sunlight (thus making your floor OUTside that window very hot...). That angle would
                    >> be
                    >> for noontime sun on the summer solstice; it would take substantially greater tilt
                    >> to do
                    >> the job at other times of the year and day. But you might find that your solar heat
                    >> gain goes down a fair bit, at a relatively low cost.
                    >>
                    >> Side effect: when you look from inside out at night, you will see only ceiling
                    >> reflections. And, oh, looking from outside in at night would be totally transparent
                    >> (but you may need to do something to keep pets, kids and other retards from
                    >> crashing
                    >> into the glass -- adults too, I guess).
                    >>
                    >> I'm sure 99% of builders will think it's crazy, so discuss it instead with someone
                    >> who
                    >> knows optics better than I do. Enjoy.
                    >>
                    >> Let me know the outcome!
                    >>
                    >> Ariel

                    >> ------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >> > Cabana: Double french doors facing west, but with a veranda overhang
                    >> of about 8
                    >> > feet. Two largish windows facing south, toward the
                    >> > harbor. None east.
                    >> > Kid's house: Lots of windows and a couple of sliding glass doors
                    >> facing south,
                    >> > toward the harbor, some with verandas. One west, no overhang. Four
                    >> east, no
                    >> > overhang.
                    >> > Our house: (just starting) Will have eight sliding glass doors facing south,
                    >> toward the harbor, with six of them under the veranda
                    >> overhang of 13
                    >> > feet. Five large windows with no overhang. Just two large windows
                    >> and a glass door
                    >> > facing west. Four windows and a glass door facing east.
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> > On Oct 4, 2006, at 5:31 PM, Ariel Thomann wrote:
                    >> >
                    >> >> Do you have any large windows facing West, South, or East?
                    >> >>
                    >> >> Ariel
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