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Re: [hreg] building efficiency vs style?

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  • Lunce
    ... Ofcourse the answer is - it depends! First I thought you wanted a fishbowl - a la Philip Johnson s glass house. But looking at the pictures, you have lots
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 7, 2006
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      > So, the question is: can a modern, energy efficient home be built that
      > includes that much glass?
      >



      Ofcourse the answer is - it depends!

      First I thought you wanted a fishbowl - a la Philip Johnson's glass
      house. But looking at the pictures, you have lots of exterior building
      skin i.e. if the glass is facing south and protected in summer from the
      sun while allowing sunlight in during the winter months - you will have
      much better control than if you had a unprotected west exposure.

      Have you visited Animal Farm? (which has been on the HREG tour for the
      past 2 years). The main level has glass on all 4 sides floor to
      ceiling. But since the overhangs are large and the sun never strikes
      the glass, and the space is so positioned for natural ventilation within
      the nest of trees, it accommodates the climate.


      > Or will there be a severe trade-off between
      > efficiency and style?
      >

      >
      >
      >

      Obviously there is always a trade off. How severe depends on how much
      you are willing to alter your lifestyle to be in balance with what you
      wish to achieve.

      Cheers :)

      Lunce
    • Garth & Kim Travis
      Greetings, While I am not an architect or engineer, what I have discovered is that you need a lot of open space, ie windows to remove the heat generated by
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 7, 2006
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        Greetings,

        While I am not an architect or engineer, what I have discovered is
        that you need a lot of open space, ie windows to remove the heat
        generated by living. Perhaps you could look at windows that open,
        rather than glass and get what you want in an efficient home. Making
        use of prevailing winds really cuts cooling costs as you don't need
        to turn on the AC until much later in the year and can turn it off at
        night when the temperature drops, like the last few nights. While it
        has been down in the 60s F at night, very few people have a home that
        can take advantage of this. The heat generating appliances keep our
        interior temperature too high and it is difficult to remove that
        heat. I built my place to take advantage of the wind and I really
        notice the difference it can make.

        Bright Blessings,
        Kim


        At 09:21 AM 9/7/2006, you wrote:
        >My wife and I have decided to move to Dallas to be closer to (her) family.
        >We've been looking at houses, and it's gotten me thinking about
        >building--I've always wanted to build my own home.
        >
        >After living in a mid-century modern house (on a block of mid-century
        >moderns) for several years, and especially after looking at a Cliff May
        >(http://www.ranchostyle.com/gallery) house while visiting Dallas this
        >weekend, I'm convinced that I want to build something in the Eichler/Cliff
        >May style. (For those of you who aren't familiar with that style, it
        >includes large expanses of windows, often floor to ceiling. The Cliff May we
        >saw in Dallas had one room that was floor to ceiling glass on three sides!)
        >
        >So, the question is: can a modern, energy efficient home be built that
        >includes that much glass? Or will there be a severe trade-off between
        >efficiency and style?
        >
        >Paul
        >
        >
        >
        >----------------------
        >| Wanted |
        >| $10,000 reward |
        >| Schroedinger's Cat |
        >| Dead or Alive |
        >----------------------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Paul Archer
        Thanks for the response. I hadn t been thinking about how passive solar would make a difference (the large overhangs). And I haven t had a chance to get out to
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 7, 2006
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          Thanks for the response. I hadn't been thinking about how passive solar
          would make a difference (the large overhangs).
          And I haven't had a chance to get out to the Animal Farm, although I'd very
          much like to sometime.

          Paul


          10:11am, Lunce wrote:

          >
          >> So, the question is: can a modern, energy efficient home be built that
          >> includes that much glass?
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > Ofcourse the answer is - it depends!
          >
          > First I thought you wanted a fishbowl - a la Philip Johnson's glass
          > house. But looking at the pictures, you have lots of exterior building
          > skin i.e. if the glass is facing south and protected in summer from the
          > sun while allowing sunlight in during the winter months - you will have
          > much better control than if you had a unprotected west exposure.
          >
          > Have you visited Animal Farm? (which has been on the HREG tour for the
          > past 2 years). The main level has glass on all 4 sides floor to
          > ceiling. But since the overhangs are large and the sun never strikes
          > the glass, and the space is so positioned for natural ventilation within
          > the nest of trees, it accommodates the climate.
          >
          >
          >> Or will there be a severe trade-off between
          >> efficiency and style?
          >>
          >
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          > Obviously there is always a trade off. How severe depends on how much
          > you are willing to alter your lifestyle to be in balance with what you
          > wish to achieve.
          >
          > Cheers :)
          >
          > Lunce
          >



          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln256%Pln256/snlbx]sb3135071790101768542287578439snlbxq'|dc
          (It's safe)
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        • Paul Archer
          That s a good idea. Of course, I want to take advantage of nature as much as possible. I think part of my problem right now is that the house I m in is very
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 7, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            That's a good idea. Of course, I want to take advantage of nature as much as
            possible.
            I think part of my problem right now is that the house I'm in is very poorly
            designed as far as efficiency goes. It has a flat roof with inadequate
            insulation (and no easy way to add more), and poor airflow. I have to run
            the A/C pretty much year round (until it gets *cold* outside). So I've been
            in the mindset of "houses are inefficient."
            Yet the house next to us, with its deep eaves and high roof, stays cool with very little
            A/C use. So I know things can be better.

            Paul


            10:35am, Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

            > Greetings,
            >
            > While I am not an architect or engineer, what I have discovered is
            > that you need a lot of open space, ie windows to remove the heat
            > generated by living. Perhaps you could look at windows that open,
            > rather than glass and get what you want in an efficient home. Making
            > use of prevailing winds really cuts cooling costs as you don't need
            > to turn on the AC until much later in the year and can turn it off at
            > night when the temperature drops, like the last few nights. While it
            > has been down in the 60s F at night, very few people have a home that
            > can take advantage of this. The heat generating appliances keep our
            > interior temperature too high and it is difficult to remove that
            > heat. I built my place to take advantage of the wind and I really
            > notice the difference it can make.
            >
            > Bright Blessings,
            > Kim
            >
            >
            > At 09:21 AM 9/7/2006, you wrote:
            >> My wife and I have decided to move to Dallas to be closer to (her) family.
            >> We've been looking at houses, and it's gotten me thinking about
            >> building--I've always wanted to build my own home.
            >>
            >> After living in a mid-century modern house (on a block of mid-century
            >> moderns) for several years, and especially after looking at a Cliff May
            >> (http://www.ranchostyle.com/gallery) house while visiting Dallas this
            >> weekend, I'm convinced that I want to build something in the Eichler/Cliff
            >> May style. (For those of you who aren't familiar with that style, it
            >> includes large expanses of windows, often floor to ceiling. The Cliff May we
            >> saw in Dallas had one room that was floor to ceiling glass on three sides!)
            >>
            >> So, the question is: can a modern, energy efficient home be built that
            >> includes that much glass? Or will there be a severe trade-off between
            >> efficiency and style?
            >>
            >> Paul
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ----------------------
            >> | Wanted |
            >> | $10,000 reward |
            >> | Schroedinger's Cat |
            >> | Dead or Alive |
            >> ----------------------
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >



            -----------------------------------------------------
            "Somebody did say Swedish porn, there--
            but someone always does..."
            --Clive Anderson, host of "Whose Line Is It, Anyway",
            after asking the audience for movie suggestions
            -----------------------------------------------------
          • Shafer, Mark B
            Having had a house with lots of glass on the East and West side (just regular glass- not double paned), we experienced temps in the house higher than ambient
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 7, 2006
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              Having had a house with lots of glass on the East and West side (just
              regular glass- not double paned), we experienced temps in the house
              higher than ambient outside temps. Having a house now that faces north,
              few east and west windows, the greatest heat source is the southern
              window exposure.

              If you're building up North, the suggestions are to have lots of
              southern window exposure to capture the natural heat of the sun. In the
              south or in the Dallas area I would suggest lot's of glass on the
              northern side of the house with a covered porch - limited windows on the
              east, west, and south side of the house.

              You'll probably be looking at 110 degrees during a Dallas summer.

              Use of winds as Kim says is a great idea. Down in Corpus Christi, old
              farm houses seemed cool in spite of the heat. High ceiling, built on
              blocks, and window placement to catch the constant breeze worked well
              before air conditioning. You can also use plants that shade in summer
              and drop leaves allowing solar heating in winter.

              Good luck on your new adventure. Update us on what you do and how well
              it works.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Lunce
              Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:11 AM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [hreg] building efficiency vs style?


              > So, the question is: can a modern, energy efficient home be built that
              > includes that much glass?
              >



              Ofcourse the answer is - it depends!

              First I thought you wanted a fishbowl - a la Philip Johnson's glass
              house. But looking at the pictures, you have lots of exterior building
              skin i.e. if the glass is facing south and protected in summer from the
              sun while allowing sunlight in during the winter months - you will have
              much better control than if you had a unprotected west exposure.

              Have you visited Animal Farm? (which has been on the HREG tour for the
              past 2 years). The main level has glass on all 4 sides floor to
              ceiling. But since the overhangs are large and the sun never strikes
              the glass, and the space is so positioned for natural ventilation within

              the nest of trees, it accommodates the climate.


              > Or will there be a severe trade-off between
              > efficiency and style?
              >

              >
              >
              >

              Obviously there is always a trade off. How severe depends on how much
              you are willing to alter your lifestyle to be in balance with what you
              wish to achieve.

              Cheers :)

              Lunce




              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Andrew McCalla
              Paul, Beware of blue-sky radiation (it isn t just direct type that will be heating you up). The more glass you have, the more imperative it is that you buy
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 7, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Paul,

                Beware of blue-sky radiation (it isn't just direct type that will be heating
                you up).

                The more glass you have, the more imperative it is that you buy nice glass,
                which is a good idea regardless.

                Keep us all posted,

                Andrew H. McCalla
                NABCEP Certified Solar PV System Installer (TM)

                Meridian Energy Systems
                2300 S. Lamar, Ste. 107
                Austin, TX 78704

                Voice: (512) 448-0055
                Fax: (512) 448-0045
                www.meridiansolar.com




                -----Original Message-----
                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
                Archer
                Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 9:21 AM
                To: Houston RE Group
                Subject: [hreg] building efficiency vs style?

                My wife and I have decided to move to Dallas to be closer to (her) family.
                We've been looking at houses, and it's gotten me thinking about
                building--I've always wanted to build my own home.

                After living in a mid-century modern house (on a block of mid-century
                moderns) for several years, and especially after looking at a Cliff May
                (http://www.ranchostyle.com/gallery) house while visiting Dallas this
                weekend, I'm convinced that I want to build something in the Eichler/Cliff
                May style. (For those of you who aren't familiar with that style, it
                includes large expanses of windows, often floor to ceiling. The Cliff May we

                saw in Dallas had one room that was floor to ceiling glass on three sides!)

                So, the question is: can a modern, energy efficient home be built that
                includes that much glass? Or will there be a severe trade-off between
                efficiency and style?

                Paul



                ----------------------
                | Wanted |
                | $10,000 reward |
                | Schroedinger's Cat |
                | Dead or Alive |
                ----------------------




                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • dpatterson@guardian.com
                If you are going to use large expanses of glass note the following: 1) be sure to use at a minimum double silver low e. And you might consider triple silver
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 7, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  If you are going to use large expanses of glass note the following:
                  1) be sure to use at a minimum double silver low e. And you might consider
                  triple silver low e that is just not entering the market.
                  2) of course the glass must be insulated. Anytime you use low emissivity
                  glass it will be insulatated.
                  3) you also should consider the spacer material for the insulated units.
                  SuperSpacer by Edgetech is a very low conducting spacer material.
                  4) also considering putting argon gas in the air space of the ig units.
                  5) If you are going to be using large pieces of glass and you don't want to
                  see the mullion of the window then you might consider using the "spider
                  claw" system of hanging pieces together. This is expensive but it look
                  very modern and used a great deal in Europe.
                  6) You should also consider a large overhand on the top of the roof if
                  possible to give the glass shading.
                  7) if $$ is not obstacle the latest in glass technology is glass that can
                  go from transparent to translucent with a flick of the switch. You can
                  actually turn a knob to allow more light to less light into the window.
                  8) and lastly BIPV - give heliovolt in Austin , Tx a call to see if you can
                  beta test their "building integrated photo voltaic" solar panels. The
                  solar panels would acutally be in the glass and the energy absorbed during
                  the day would go to lighting and cooling your house.


                  Deron V. Patterson
                  District Sales Manager| Guardian Industries Corp. | (Tel: 281.793.3618 | 2
                  Fax: 281.313.4271 | š dpatterson@...| http://www.guardian.com/ |
                  http://www.sun-guardglass.com/ | http://www.showerguardglass.com/ |
                  http://www.climaguardspf.com/



                  "Andrew McCalla"
                  <andrew@meridians
                  olar.com> To
                  Sent by: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                  hreg@yahoogroups. cc
                  com
                  Subject
                  RE: [hreg] building efficiency vs
                  09/07/2006 11:30 style?
                  AM


                  Please respond to
                  hreg@yahoogroups.
                  com






                  Paul,

                  Beware of blue-sky radiation (it isn't just direct type that will be
                  heating
                  you up).

                  The more glass you have, the more imperative it is that you buy nice glass,
                  which is a good idea regardless.

                  Keep us all posted,

                  Andrew H. McCalla
                  NABCEP Certified Solar PV System Installer (TM)

                  Meridian Energy Systems
                  2300 S. Lamar, Ste. 107
                  Austin, TX 78704

                  Voice: (512) 448-0055
                  Fax: (512) 448-0045
                  www.meridiansolar.com

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
                  Archer
                  Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 9:21 AM
                  To: Houston RE Group
                  Subject: [hreg] building efficiency vs style?

                  My wife and I have decided to move to Dallas to be closer to (her) family.
                  We've been looking at houses, and it's gotten me thinking about
                  building--I've always wanted to build my own home.

                  After living in a mid-century modern house (on a block of mid-century
                  moderns) for several years, and especially after looking at a Cliff May
                  (http://www.ranchostyle.com/gallery) house while visiting Dallas this
                  weekend, I'm convinced that I want to build something in the Eichler/Cliff
                  May style. (For those of you who aren't familiar with that style, it
                  includes large expanses of windows, often floor to ceiling. The Cliff May
                  we

                  saw in Dallas had one room that was floor to ceiling glass on three sides!)

                  So, the question is: can a modern, energy efficient home be built that
                  includes that much glass? Or will there be a severe trade-off between
                  efficiency and style?

                  Paul

                  ----------------------
                  | Wanted |
                  | $10,000 reward |
                  | Schroedinger's Cat |
                  | Dead or Alive |
                  ----------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links




                  **********************************************************************
                  This communication may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential, or exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please note that any dissemination, distribution, or copying is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error please notify the sender by telephone, fax, or return email and delete this message from your computer. Thank you.
                  **********************************************************************
                • dpatterson@guardian.com
                  oh and one more thing.........be sure to use one lite of the insultated unit laminated glass. Laminated glass like in your windshield blocks out 99.9% of the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 7, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    oh and one more thing.........be sure to use one lite of the insultated
                    unit laminated glass. Laminated glass like in your windshield blocks out
                    99.9% of the UVA and UVA harmful fading rays and cancer causing rays from
                    entering your house. Or you can use Guardian's newest product ClimaGuard
                    SPF glass.
                    See the link below.

                    Deron V. Patterson
                    District Sales Manager| Guardian Industries Corp. | (Tel: 281.793.3618 | 2
                    Fax: 281.313.4271 | š dpatterson@...| http://www.guardian.com/ |
                    http://www.sun-guardglass.com/ | http://www.showerguardglass.com/ |
                    http://www.climaguardspf.com/



                    "Andrew McCalla"
                    <andrew@meridians
                    olar.com> To
                    Sent by: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                    hreg@yahoogroups. cc
                    com
                    Subject
                    RE: [hreg] building efficiency vs
                    09/07/2006 11:30 style?
                    AM


                    Please respond to
                    hreg@yahoogroups.
                    com






                    Paul,

                    Beware of blue-sky radiation (it isn't just direct type that will be
                    heating
                    you up).

                    The more glass you have, the more imperative it is that you buy nice glass,
                    which is a good idea regardless.

                    Keep us all posted,

                    Andrew H. McCalla
                    NABCEP Certified Solar PV System Installer (TM)

                    Meridian Energy Systems
                    2300 S. Lamar, Ste. 107
                    Austin, TX 78704

                    Voice: (512) 448-0055
                    Fax: (512) 448-0045
                    www.meridiansolar.com

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
                    Archer
                    Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 9:21 AM
                    To: Houston RE Group
                    Subject: [hreg] building efficiency vs style?

                    My wife and I have decided to move to Dallas to be closer to (her) family.
                    We've been looking at houses, and it's gotten me thinking about
                    building--I've always wanted to build my own home.

                    After living in a mid-century modern house (on a block of mid-century
                    moderns) for several years, and especially after looking at a Cliff May
                    (http://www.ranchostyle.com/gallery) house while visiting Dallas this
                    weekend, I'm convinced that I want to build something in the Eichler/Cliff
                    May style. (For those of you who aren't familiar with that style, it
                    includes large expanses of windows, often floor to ceiling. The Cliff May
                    we

                    saw in Dallas had one room that was floor to ceiling glass on three sides!)

                    So, the question is: can a modern, energy efficient home be built that
                    includes that much glass? Or will there be a severe trade-off between
                    efficiency and style?

                    Paul

                    ----------------------
                    | Wanted |
                    | $10,000 reward |
                    | Schroedinger's Cat |
                    | Dead or Alive |
                    ----------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links




                    **********************************************************************
                    This communication may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential, or exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please note that any dissemination, distribution, or copying is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error please notify the sender by telephone, fax, or return email and delete this message from your computer. Thank you.
                    **********************************************************************
                  • Ariel Thomann
                    Paul: what will you be doing the weekend of 22-24 Sep? Consider going to the Renewable Energy Roundup in Fredericksburg [ http://www.theroundup.org/ ] with
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 7, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Paul: what will you be doing the weekend of 22-24 Sep? Consider going to the
                      Renewable Energy Roundup in Fredericksburg [ http://www.theroundup.org/ ] with an
                      enroute stop in Austin to experience the breezeway between the admin building and the
                      cafeteria at the Lady Bird Center [ http://www.wildflower.org/ ]. At the latter you may
                      also get ideas about landscaping with native plants requiring less maintenance, water,
                      etc. Enjoy!

                      Ariel
                      - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                      there is NO ONE who will help.
                      - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                      -----------------------------------

                      > If you are going to use large expanses of glass note the following:
                      1) be sure to use
                      > at a minimum double silver low e. And you might consider
                      triple silver low e that is
                      > just not entering the market.
                      > 2) of course the glass must be insulated. Anytime you use low emissivity
                      glass it
                      > will be insulatated.
                      > 3) you also should consider the spacer material for the insulated units.
                      SuperSpacer
                      > by Edgetech is a very low conducting spacer material.
                      4) also considering putting
                      > argon gas in the air space of the ig units.
                      5) If you are going to be using large
                      > pieces of glass and you don't want to
                      see the mullion of the window then you might
                      > consider using the "spider
                      claw" system of hanging pieces together. This is
                      > expensive but it look
                      very modern and used a great deal in Europe.
                      > 6) You should also consider a large overhand on the top of the roof if
                      possible to
                      > give the glass shading.
                      > 7) if $$ is not obstacle the latest in glass technology is glass that can
                      go from
                      > transparent to translucent with a flick of the switch. You can
                      actually turn a knob
                      > to allow more light to less light into the window.
                      8) and lastly BIPV - give
                      > heliovolt in Austin , Tx a call to see if you can
                      beta test their "building
                      > integrated photo voltaic" solar panels. The
                      solar panels would acutally be in the
                      > glass and the energy absorbed during
                      the day would go to lighting and cooling your
                      > house.
                      >
                      >
                      > Deron V. Patterson
                      > District Sales Manager| Guardian Industries Corp. | (Tel: 281.793.3618 | 2
                      Fax:
                      > 281.313.4271 | Å¡ dpatterson@...| http://www.guardian.com/ |
                      http://www.sun-guardglass.com/ | http://www.showerguardglass.com/ |
                      http://www.climaguardspf.com/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > "Andrew McCalla"
                      > <andrew@meridians
                      olar.com>
                      > To
                      Sent by:
                      > <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                      hreg@yahoogroups.
                      > cc
                      com
                      >
                      > Subject
                      > RE: [hreg] building efficiency vs
                      > 09/07/2006 11:30 style?
                      AM
                      >
                      >

                      > Please respond to
                      > hreg@yahoogroups.
                      > com
                      >

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Paul,
                      >
                      > Beware of blue-sky radiation (it isn't just direct type that will be
                      heating
                      > you up).
                      >
                      > The more glass you have, the more imperative it is that you buy nice glass,
                      which is
                      > a good idea regardless.
                      >
                      > Keep us all posted,
                      >
                      > Andrew H. McCalla
                      > NABCEP Certified Solar PV System Installer (TM)
                      >
                      > Meridian Energy Systems
                      > 2300 S. Lamar, Ste. 107
                      > Austin, TX 78704
                      >
                      > Voice: (512) 448-0055
                      > Fax: (512) 448-0045
                      > www.meridiansolar.com
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
                      Archer
                      > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 9:21 AM
                      > To: Houston RE Group
                      > Subject: [hreg] building efficiency vs style?
                      >
                      > My wife and I have decided to move to Dallas to be closer to (her) family.
                      We've been
                      > looking at houses, and it's gotten me thinking about
                      > building--I've always wanted to build my own home.
                      >
                      > After living in a mid-century modern house (on a block of mid-century
                      moderns) for
                      > several years, and especially after looking at a Cliff May
                      > (http://www.ranchostyle.com/gallery) house while visiting Dallas this
                      weekend, I'm
                      > convinced that I want to build something in the Eichler/Cliff
                      May style. (For those
                      > of you who aren't familiar with that style, it
                      includes large expanses of windows,
                      > often floor to ceiling. The Cliff May
                      we
                      >
                      > saw in Dallas had one room that was floor to ceiling glass on three sides!)

                      > So, the question is: can a modern, energy efficient home be built that
                      includes that
                      > much glass? Or will there be a severe trade-off between
                      efficiency and style?
                      >
                      > Paul
                      >
                      > ----------------------
                      > | Wanted |
                      > | $10,000 reward |
                      > | Schroedinger's Cat |
                      > | Dead or Alive |
                      > ----------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > **********************************************************************
                      This
                      > communication may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential, or
                      exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please note that any
                      dissemination, distribution, or copying is strictly prohibited. If you have received
                      this message in error please notify the sender by telephone, fax, or return email and
                      delete this message from your computer. Thank you.
                      > **********************************************************************

                      >
                      >
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