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RE: [HoustonPeakOil] Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

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  • Israel Palacios
    There is an unofficial electronic archive for KPFT or at least there used to be. It can be found by googling KPFT. _____ From: hreg@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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      There is an unofficial electronic archive for KPFT or at least there used to be.  It can be found by googling KPFT.

       


      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Randy Scott
      Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:11 PM
      To: Ariel Thomann; hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: bsyed@...; houstonpeakoil@...
      Subject: Re: [HoustonPeakOil] Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

       

      I didn't hear the program, but maybe you're thinking of the Sterling engine?

      Randy

      --- Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@pol. net> wrote:

      > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio
      that I can't find
      > now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write
      down the key
      > family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by
      someone from
      > a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or
      gasoline,
      > compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and
      cheaper than
      > anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players.
      Did anybody
      > else catch that program?
      >
      > Ariel
      >

      Petition to challenge Dwayne Bohac to give back dirty money
      http://www.thepetit ionsite.com/ takeaction/ 382026427

      Mark McDavid for Congress - Tx Dist 138
      http://www.votemcda vid.com/

      http://randyscott. fortunecity. com/blog/

    • Bashir Syed
      It s the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions, which the corporations don t have to worry, and money saved goes to the top
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions, which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
         
        Bashir A. Syed 
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
        Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

        Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and mass
        produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...

        Ariel
        - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
        there is NO ONE who will help.
        - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
        ------------ --------- --------- ------

        > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
        >
        >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is an
        >> underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare to
        >> keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking their butt
        >> with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil companies,
        >> government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil companies are
        >> making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may not recover. I
        >> want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why this is happening.
        >> I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT by a Ford again or an
        >> American car. I really want to a prius or what I will probably do is build an
        >> electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out there and see what you guys
        >> think.
        >>
        >
        > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is due
        > to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically takes
        > several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I don't know
        > how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new vs how much
        > has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body on an existing
        > chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast available with a
        > 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was probably in the
        > works before W. became President.
        >
        > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a much
        > better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take advantage
        > of today's higher gas prices.
        >
        > Paul
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

      • blpasemann
        I have been reading a lot and I read about the car companies not wanting to promote hybrids or electric cars. Here s an article from the energy bulleting
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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          I have been reading a lot and I read about the car companies not
          wanting to promote hybrids or electric cars. Here's an article from
          the energy bulleting website. This kind of talk from GM will never
          get me to buy one of their products. I read similar things from ford,
          like when they are scaling back there hybrid production quantities
          from earlier statements. I just don't think they want to do it and
          are being paid by big oil.

          GM article:
          -------------------------------------------------------
          Lutz: GM building hybrids for good press
          LeftLane News
          General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week
          that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve
          its public image. "Hybrids are technologically of doubtful benefit,
          and expensive, but necessary from a political and public relations
          point of view," Lutz told Just-Auto. "Toyota has said, economically,
          hybrids make no sense. The reduction in fuel [consumption] does not
          pay for the technological content and cost of the vehicle so therefore
          economically it remains fairly nonsensical, so that's the left-brain
          analytical argument."

          "The right brain is it's the popular thing to do, many people believe
          that if we all drove hybrids the world would suddenly get cooler again
          and then it's the patriotic thing to do because if you drive a hybrid
          you will no longer be funding the Arab terrorists, and so forth."

          "So, with all those beliefs out there, you have to do a hybrid for
          public policy reasons."

          "I don't care how much money you get out but when you've got two
          drivetrains, the sophisticated electronics and a big lithium-ion
          battery, you've got cost."

          Lutz says diesels are also problematic. "The modern diesel is becoming
          more and more expensive as we have to have to gear up to meet Euro 5,
          which is very difficult."

          "Let's not forget, a diesel engine is always going to be more
          expensive than a conventional petrol engine, that's the laws of physics."

          In March, Lutz said GM is most enthusiastic about ethanol. "We think
          running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the
          world," he said.
          (21 July 2006)
          >
          > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are
          > seeing is due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go
          through.
          > It typically takes several years for a manufacturer to design and
          implement
          > something new. I don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years,
          > depending on how much is new vs how much has already been designed.
          > (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body on an existing chassis.)
          > Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast available
          with a
          > 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
          probably in
          > the works before W. became President.
          >
          > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
          probably
          > in a much better position from the start to offer more
          fuel-efficient cars
          > and take advantage of today's higher gas prices.
          >
          > Paul
          >
        • Roy Holder
          ... up, and mass ... P51 tok 13 months to flying prototype(sep39 to may40), in 1940, but did not enter production untill around mid 41. The Mustang was built
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            At 12:54 PM 8/2/2006 -0500, you wrote:
            >Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool
            up, and mass
            >produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...

            P51 tok 13 months to flying prototype(sep39 to may40), in 1940, but did not
            enter production untill around mid 41.
            'The Mustang was built for the highest performance with less thought for
            longevity'
            Not the kind of product to make payments on for 5 years.

            P-47 took 11 months to prototype, and another 10 to set up production.

            both models did not inter combat untill late 43. In reality is was more
            like years to get a new model out.


            Car manufactures must go thru the federal government and NTSB safety
            programs to get certified before they can sell any vehicle with a speed
            over 45 mph.

            At national energy conferences, Ive heard quotes of years of paperwork and
            over 10 mil $ per vehicle (+5 or so crash test units) to get safety
            certified for highway speeds. That is part of the reason electrics are
            slowly appearing as NEV's, and new EV manufacturers are nonexistnat.




            >
            >Ariel
            >- We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
            since otherwise
            >there is NO ONE who will help.
            >- All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
            generations.
            >------------------------------------
            >
            >> 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
            >>
            >>> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel
            there is an
            >>> underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and
            marketshare to
            >>> keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and
            kicking their butt
            >>> with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
            companies,
            >>> government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
            companies are
            >>> making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may not
            recover. I
            >>> want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why this is
            happening.
            >>> I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT by a
            Ford again or an
            >>> American car. I really want to a prius or what I will probably do is
            build an
            >>> electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out there and see
            what you guys
            >>> think.
            >>>
            >>
            >> I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are
            seeing is due
            >> to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It
            typically takes
            >> several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new.
            I don't know
            >> how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
            vs how much
            >> has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
            on an existing
            >> chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
            available with a
            >> 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
            probably in the
            >> works before W. became President.
            >>
            >> Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
            probably in a much
            >> better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and
            take advantage
            >> of today's higher gas prices.
            >>
            >> Paul
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Ariel Thomann
            I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can t find now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
              now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
              family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
              a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
              compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
              anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
              else catch that program?

              Ariel
              - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
              there is NO ONE who will help.
              - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
              ------------------------------------

              > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
              > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
              > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
              > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
              > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
              > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
              >
              > Bashir A. Syed
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Ariel Thomann
              > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              > Cc: tigger@...
              > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
              > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
              >
              >
              > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
              > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
              >
              > Ariel
              ------------------------------------
              >
              > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
              > >
              > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
              > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
              > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
              > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
              > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
              > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
              > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
              > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
              > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
              > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
              > there and see what you guys think.
              > >>
              > >
              > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
              > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
              > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
              > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
              > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
              > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
              > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
              > probably in the works before W. became President.
              > >
              > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
              > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
              > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
              > >
              > > Paul
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Randy Scott
              I didn t hear the program, but maybe you re thinking of the Sterling engine? Randy ... Petition to challenge Dwayne Bohac to give back dirty money
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                I didn't hear the program, but maybe you're thinking of the Sterling engine?

                Randy



                --- Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@...> wrote:

                > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                > now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                > family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                > a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                > compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                > anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                > else catch that program?
                >
                > Ariel
                >

                Petition to challenge Dwayne Bohac to give back dirty money
                http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/382026427

                Mark McDavid for Congress - Tx Dist 138
                http://www.votemcdavid.com/

                http://randyscott.fortunecity.com/blog/
              • Julie Hendricks
                I heard part of an extensive piece about Nikola Tesla, a very prolific inventor of the 19th century, yesterday on KPFT around noon time. I did a quick web
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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                  I heard part of an extensive piece about Nikola Tesla, a very prolific inventor of the 19th century, yesterday on KPFT around noon time.  I did a quick web search and found the following about an engine design of his.  Maybe this is what you are looking for:

                   

                  http://www.tfcbooks.com/articles/tdt7.htm

                   

                  Julie Hendricks, AIA LEED AP

                  Kirksey
                  6909 Portwest Drive
                  Houston Texas 77024
                  v 713 426 7566
                  f 713 726 7066

                  julieh@...
                  www.kirksey.com

                   


                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ariel Thomann
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:59 PM
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: bsyed@...; houstonpeakoil@...
                  Subject: Re: [hreg]

                   

                  I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                  now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                  family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                  a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                  compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                  anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                  else catch that program?

                  Ariel
                  - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                  there is NO ONE who will help.
                  - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                  ------------ --------- --------- ------

                  > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and
                  pensions,
                  > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the
                  top of the
                  > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED,
                  which has
                  > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There
                  are a lot of
                  > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more
                  reliable, but it
                  > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                  >
                  > Bashir A. Syed
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Ariel Thomann
                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                  > Cc: tigger@...
                  > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                  >
                  >
                  > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool
                  up, and
                  > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                  >
                  > Ariel
                  ------------ --------- --------- ------
                  >
                  > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> Interesting article today, that
                  w:st="on">Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                  > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and
                  marketshare
                  > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and
                  w:st="on">Toyota and kicking
                  > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the
                  oil
                  > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while
                  oil
                  > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money
                  and may
                  > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons
                  why
                  > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I
                  will NOT
                  > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I
                  will
                  > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this
                  out
                  > there and see what you guys think.
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we)
                  are seeing is
                  > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It
                  typically
                  > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something
                  new. I
                  > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how
                  much is new
                  > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a
                  new body
                  > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling
                  beast
                  > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago.
                  It was
                  > probably in the works before W. became President.
                  > >
                  > > Honda and Toyota
                  have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                  > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and
                  take
                  > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                  > >
                  > > Paul
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                • Jim & Janet
                  You heard it on Marketplace on Tuesday. http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html Marketplace is an excellent program for Public
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business news.
                    Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer attention to "business" news.
                    Jim Duncan
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                    Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                    I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                    now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                    family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                    a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                    compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                    anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                    else catch that program?

                    Ariel
                    - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                    there is NO ONE who will help.
                    - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                    ------------ --------- --------- ------

                    > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                    > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                    > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                    > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                    > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                    > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                    >
                    > Bashir A. Syed
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Ariel Thomann
                    > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                    > Cc: tigger@...
                    > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                    >
                    >
                    > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                    > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                    >
                    > Ariel
                    ------------ --------- --------- ------
                    >
                    > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                    > >
                    > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                    > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                    > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                    > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                    > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                    > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                    > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                    > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                    > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                    > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                    > there and see what you guys think.
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                    > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                    > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                    > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                    > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                    > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                    > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                    > probably in the works before W. became President.
                    > >
                    > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                    > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                    > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                    > >
                    > > Paul
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                  • Sean Kaylor
                    The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi. About US auto makers. Isn t it ironic that CAFE
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment

                      The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi.

                      About US auto makers. Isn't it ironic that CAFE standards haven't been raised since the mid-1980's? The US is the only developed nation to actually have an average reduction in automobile fuel efficiency in the past ten years. Why aren't CAFE standards raised? While I would shy away from pointing fingers directly- there is a lot of blame centered around the United Auto Workers and the mid-west politicians. The UAW claimes that raising CAFE standards will jepordize passenger safety because to obtain a more fuel efficient vehicle major weight reductions will have to take place. Also, the UAW and domestic car manufacturing firms fear that raising fuel efficiency standards might give foreign competitors a strategic advantage because, just as was mentioned earlier in this post, Hond and Toyota have been successfully designing, manufacturing, and selling more efficient vehicles for several decades now.

                      It is rather ironic that Ford and GM are losing money hand over fist not simply because they are losing market share in the compact/sub-compact categories, but mainly because their high profit margin SUV and truck categories are having to compete against Toyota and Honda SUV and truck models. Looks like domestic auto production is declining on all fronts which is unfortunate.

                      Sean 

                       


                      From: "Jim & Janet" <jhd1@...>
                      Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                      To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                      Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:36:05 -0500

                      Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business news.
                      Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer attention to "business" news.
                      Jim Duncan
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                      Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                      I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                      now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                      family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                      a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                      compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                      anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                      else catch that program?

                      Ariel
                      - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                      there is NO ONE who will help.
                      - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                      ------------ --------- --------- ------

                      > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                      > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                      > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                      > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                      > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                      > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                      >
                      > Bashir A. Syed
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Ariel Thomann
                      > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                      > Cc: tigger@...
                      > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                      >
                      >
                      > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                      > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                      >
                      > Ariel
                      ------------ --------- --------- ------
                      >
                      > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                      > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                      > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                      > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                      > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                      > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                      > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                      > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                      > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                      > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                      > there and see what you guys think.
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                      > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                      > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                      > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                      > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                      > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                      > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                      > probably in the works before W. became President.
                      > >
                      > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                      > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                      > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                      > >
                      > > Paul
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links


                    • Laura
                      I ve cancelled my subscription to this membership, yet I still get emails. Can you please take me off the list. Thanks. Laura La Rue ... From:
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment

                        I’ve cancelled my subscription to this membership, yet I still get emails. Can you please take me off the list.


                        Thanks.

                         

                        Laura La Rue

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Kaylor
                        Sent:
                        Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:11 PM
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                         

                        The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi.

                        About US auto makers. Isn't it ironic that CAFE standards haven't been raised since the mid-1980's? The US is the only developed nation to actually have an average reduction in automobile fuel efficiency in the past ten years. Why aren't CAFE standards raised? While I would shy away from pointing fingers directly- there is a lot of blame centered around the United Auto Workers and the mid-west politicians. The UAW claimes that raising CAFE standards will jepordize passenger safety because to obtain a more fuel efficient vehicle major weight reductions will have to take place. Also, the UAW and domestic car manufacturing firms fear that raising fuel efficiency standards might give foreign competitors a strategic advantage because, just as was mentioned earlier in this post, Hond and Toyota have been successfully designing, manufacturing, and selling more efficient vehicles for several decades now.

                        It is rather ironic that Ford and GM are losing money hand over fist not simply because they are losing market share in the compact/sub- compact categories, but mainly because their high profit margin SUV and truck categories are having to compete against Toyota and Honda SUV and truck models. Looks like domestic auto production is declining on all fronts which is unfortunate.

                        Sean 

                         


                        From: "Jim & Janet" <jhd1@earthlink. net>
                        Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                        To: <hreg@yahoogroups. com>
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                        Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:36:05 -0500

                        Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business news.

                        Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer attention to "business" news.

                        Jim Duncan

                         

                        ----- Original Message -----

                        Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM

                        Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                         

                        I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                        now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                        family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                        a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                        compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                        anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                        else catch that program?

                        Ariel
                        - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                        there is NO ONE who will help.
                        - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                        ------------ --------- --------- ------

                        > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                        > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                        > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                        > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                        > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                        > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                        >
                        > Bashir A. Syed
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Ariel Thomann
                        > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                        > Cc: tigger@...
                        > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                        >
                        >
                        > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                        > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                        >
                        > Ariel
                        ------------ --------- --------- ------
                        >
                        > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                        > >
                        > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                        > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                        > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                        > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                        > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                        > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                        > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                        > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                        > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                        > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                        > there and see what you guys think.
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                        > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                        > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                        > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                        > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                        > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                        > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                        > probably in the works before W. became President.
                        > >
                        > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                        > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                        > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                        > >
                        > > Paul
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                         

                      • blpasemann
                        Laura, at the very least you should be able to go into your yahoo/group settings and disable email messages from this group. At least the emails will stop.
                        Message 11 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Laura,
                          at the very least you should be able to go into your yahoo/group
                          settings and disable email messages from this group. At least the
                          emails will stop.

                          --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Laura" <laura@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I've cancelled my subscription to this membership, yet I still get
                          > emails. Can you please take me off the list.
                          >
                          >
                          > Thanks.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Laura La Rue
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          > Sean Kaylor
                          > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:11 PM
                          > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine
                          > designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi.
                          >
                          > About US auto makers. Isn't it ironic that CAFE standards haven't been
                          > raised since the mid-1980's? The US is the only developed nation to
                          > actually have an average reduction in automobile fuel efficiency in the
                          > past ten years. Why aren't CAFE standards raised? While I would shy away
                          > from pointing fingers directly- there is a lot of blame centered around
                          > the United Auto Workers and the mid-west politicians. The UAW claimes
                          > that raising CAFE standards will jepordize passenger safety because to
                          > obtain a more fuel efficient vehicle major weight reductions will have
                          > to take place. Also, the UAW and domestic car manufacturing firms fear
                          > that raising fuel efficiency standards might give foreign competitors a
                          > strategic advantage because, just as was mentioned earlier in this post,
                          > Hond and Toyota have been successfully designing, manufacturing, and
                          > selling more efficient vehicles for several decades now.
                          >
                          > It is rather ironic that Ford and GM are losing money hand over fist not
                          > simply because they are losing market share in the compact/sub-compact
                          > categories, but mainly because their high profit margin SUV and truck
                          > categories are having to compete against Toyota and Honda SUV and truck
                          > models. Looks like domestic auto production is declining on all fronts
                          > which is unfortunate.
                          >
                          > Sean
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          >
                          > From: "Jim & Janet" <jhd1@...>
                          > Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                          > To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                          > Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:36:05 -0500
                          >
                          > You heard it on Marketplace on Tuesday. http://marketplace.
                          > <http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html>
                          > publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html
                          >
                          > Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business
                          > news.
                          >
                          > Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a
                          > very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or
                          > world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer
                          > attention to "business" news.
                          >
                          > Jim Duncan
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          >
                          > From: Ariel Thomann <mailto:ajthomann@...>
                          >
                          > To: hreg@yahoogroups. <mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com> com
                          >
                          > Cc: bsyed@worldnet. <mailto:bsyed@...> att.net ;
                          > houstonpeakoil@ <mailto:houstonpeakoil@...>
                          > lists.riseup.net
                          >
                          > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                          >
                          > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio
                          > that I can't find
                          > now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write
                          > down the key
                          > family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised
                          > by someone from
                          > a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel
                          > or gasoline,
                          > compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and
                          > cheaper than
                          > anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players.
                          > Did anybody
                          > else catch that program?
                          >
                          > Ariel
                          > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
                          > since otherwise
                          > there is NO ONE who will help.
                          > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                          > generations.
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance
                          > and pensions,
                          > > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to
                          > the top of the
                          > > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of
                          > GREED, which has
                          > > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers.
                          > There are a lot of
                          > > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more
                          > reliable, but it
                          > > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                          > >
                          > > Bashir A. Syed
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: Ariel Thomann
                          > > To: hreg@yahoogroups. <mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com> com
                          > > Cc: tigger@...
                          > > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test,
                          > tool up, and
                          > > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                          > >
                          > > Ariel
                          > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I
                          > feel there is
                          > > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and
                          > marketshare
                          > > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and
                          > kicking
                          > > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel
                          > the oil
                          > > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but
                          > while oil
                          > > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of
                          > money and may
                          > > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some
                          > reasons why
                          > > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but
                          > I will NOT
                          > > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I
                          > will
                          > > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put
                          > this out
                          > > there and see what you guys think.
                          > > >>
                          > > >
                          > > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we)
                          > are seeing is
                          > > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It
                          > typically
                          > > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement
                          > something new. I
                          > > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how
                          > much is new
                          > > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs
                          > a new body
                          > > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big,
                          > gas-guzzling beast
                          > > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so
                          > ago. It was
                          > > probably in the works before W. became President.
                          > > >
                          > > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
                          > probably in a
                          > > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars
                          > and take
                          > > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                          > > >
                          > > > Paul
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                        • Roxanne Boyer
                          Ok, now I know why GM stock is rated junk . Why does Bob Lutz think ethanol is the solution? Several studies and even my own have shown that if all the
                          Message 12 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Ok, now I know why GM stock is rated "junk".
                            Why does Bob Lutz think ethanol is the solution?
                            Several studies and even my own have shown that if all the available land in the US grew biomass for ethanol, only 10% (modern tech) to 20% (future tech) of our gasoline could be replaced by ethanol. (Only 6% of diesel consumption could be replaced by biodiesel.)  Biomass fuel is hugely inefficient way to convert land into energy.  Lutz has not done his homework.
                             
                            I agree that it is difficult to put engine and electric trivetrains into the same car and make it economical.  Most families have two cars; why not have one for long distance (engine) and the other electric for short commutes.  It may not be for everyone, but, I bet there will be a profitable market.  I seems Bob Lutz has no vision for the future; he can only see what is now and thinks it will never change.  How do short sighted people like this get to be Vice Presidents?
                             
                             


                            blpasemann <blpasemann@...> wrote:
                            I have been reading a lot and I read about the car companies not
                            wanting to promote hybrids or electric cars. Here's an article from
                            the energy bulleting website. This kind of talk from GM will never
                            get me to buy one of their products. I read similar things from ford,
                            like when they are scaling back there hybrid production quantities
                            from earlier statements. I just don't think they want to do it and
                            are being paid by big oil.

                            GM article:
                            ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -------
                            Lutz: GM building hybrids for good press
                            LeftLane News
                            General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week
                            that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve
                            its public image. "Hybrids are technologically of doubtful benefit,
                            and expensive, but necessary from a political and public relations
                            point of view," Lutz told Just-Auto. "Toyota has said, economically,
                            hybrids make no sense. The reduction in fuel [consumption] does not
                            pay for the technological content and cost of the vehicle so therefore
                            economically it remains fairly nonsensical, so that's the left-brain
                            analytical argument."

                            "The right brain is it's the popular thing to do, many people believe
                            that if we all drove hybrids the world would suddenly get cooler again
                            and then it's the patriotic thing to do because if you drive a hybrid
                            you will no longer be funding the Arab terrorists, and so forth."

                            "So, with all those beliefs out there, you have to do a hybrid for
                            public policy reasons."

                            "I don't care how much money you get out but when you've got two
                            drivetrains, the sophisticated electronics and a big lithium-ion
                            battery, you've got cost."

                            Lutz says diesels are also problematic. "The modern diesel is becoming
                            more and more expensive as we have to have to gear up to meet Euro 5,
                            which is very difficult."

                            "Let's not forget, a diesel engine is always going to be more
                            expensive than a conventional petrol engine, that's the laws of physics."

                            In March, Lutz said GM is most enthusiastic about ethanol. "We think
                            running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the
                            world," he said.
                            (21 July 2006)
                            >
                            > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are
                            > seeing is due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go
                            through.
                            > It typically takes several years for a manufacturer to design and
                            implement
                            > something new. I don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years,
                            > depending on how much is new vs how much has already been designed.
                            > (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body on an existing chassis.)
                            > Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast available
                            with a
                            > 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                            probably in
                            > the works before W. became President.
                            >
                            > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
                            probably
                            > in a much better position from the start to offer more
                            fuel-efficient cars
                            > and take advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                            >
                            > Paul
                            >


                          • Ariel Thomann
                            No, thanks. I heard the Tesla thing too. This other was about an American inventor in the mid- to late-20th century. Ariel - We are all Human beings here
                            Message 13 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              No, thanks. I heard the Tesla thing too. This other was about an American inventor in
                              the mid- to late-20th century.

                              Ariel
                              - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                              there is NO ONE who will help.
                              - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                              ------------------------------------

                              > I heard part of an extensive piece about Nikola Tesla, a very prolific inventor of the
                              > 19th century, yesterday on KPFT around noon time. I did a quick web search and found
                              > the following about an engine design of his. Maybe this is what you are looking for:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > http://www.tfcbooks.com/articles/tdt7.htm
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Julie Hendricks, AIA LEED AP
                              >
                              > Kirksey
                              > 6909 Portwest Drive
                              > Houston Texas 77024
                              > v 713 426 7566
                              > f 713 726 7066
                              >
                              > julieh@...
                              > www.kirksey.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              >
                              > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ariel Thomann
                              > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:59 PM
                              > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                              > Cc: bsyed@...; houstonpeakoil@...
                              > Subject: Re: [hreg]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't
                              > find
                              > now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                              > family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone
                              > from
                              > a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                              > compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                              > anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                              > else catch that program?
                              >
                              > Ariel
                              > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                              > there is NO ONE who will help.
                              > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              >> It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance
                              > and pensions,
                              >> which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to
                              > the top of the
                              >> Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of
                              > GREED, which has
                              >> desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers.
                              > There are a lot of
                              >> neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more
                              > reliable, but it
                              >> does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                              >>
                              >> Bashir A. Syed
                              >> ----- Original Message -----
                              >> From: Ariel Thomann
                              >> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hreg%40yahoogroups.com>
                              >> Cc: tigger@... <mailto:tigger%40io.com>
                              >> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                              >> Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test,
                              > tool up, and
                              >> mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                              >>
                              >> Ariel
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >>
                              >> > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                              >> >
                              >> >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I
                              > feel there is
                              >> an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and
                              > marketshare
                              >> to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and
                              > kicking
                              >> their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel
                              > the oil
                              >> companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but
                              > while oil
                              >> companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of
                              > money and may
                              >> not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some
                              > reasons why
                              >> this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but
                              > I will NOT
                              >> by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I
                              > will
                              >> probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put
                              > this out
                              >> there and see what you guys think.
                              >> >>
                              >> >
                              >> > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we)
                              > are seeing is
                              >> due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It
                              > typically
                              >> takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement
                              > something new. I
                              >> don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how
                              > much is new
                              >> vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs
                              > a new body
                              >> on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big,
                              > gas-guzzling beast
                              >> available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so
                              > ago. It was
                              >> probably in the works before W. became President.
                              >> >
                              >> > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
                              > probably in a
                              >> much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars
                              > and take
                              >> advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                              >> >
                              >> > Paul
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> >
                              >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                            • Ariel Thomann
                              Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here is their own website: : http://www.scuderigroup.com/ Ariel - We are all
                              Message 14 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here
                                is their own website: : http://www.scuderigroup.com/

                                Ariel
                                - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                                there is NO ONE who will help.
                                - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                                ------------------------------------

                                > You heard it on Marketplace on Tuesday.
                                > http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html Marketplace is an
                                > excellent program for Public Radio quality business news. Often the much overlooked
                                > business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not
                                > make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start
                                > paying closer attention to "business" news. Jim Duncan
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Ariel Thomann
                                > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                > Cc: bsyed@... ; houstonpeakoil@...
                                > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                >
                                >
                                > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't
                                > find now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down
                                > the key family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by
                                > someone from a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel
                                > or gasoline, compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and
                                > cheaper than anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big
                                > players. Did anybody else catch that program?
                                >
                                > Ariel
                                > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since
                                > otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                                > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                                > generations. ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and
                                > pensions, which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the
                                > top of the Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of
                                > GREED, which has desensitized them to think about the interests of their
                                > customers. There are a lot of neat technologies which can be used in todays cars
                                > to make them more reliable, but it does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the
                                > APEX.
                                > >
                                > > Bashir A. Syed
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: Ariel Thomann
                                > > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Cc: tigger@...
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                                > > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                                > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                                > >
                                > > Ariel
                                > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                                > > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                                > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking their
                                > butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                                > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                                > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                                > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                                > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                                > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                                > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                                > there and see what you guys think.
                                > > >>
                                > > >
                                > > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing
                                > is
                                > > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                                > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                                > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                                > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                                > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                                > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                                > probably in the works before W. became President.
                                > > >
                                > > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                                > > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                                > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                                > > >
                                > > > Paul
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Garth & Kim Travis
                                Greetings, Messages of this type do not belong on the list, if you have a problem, contact the list owner off list. Bright Blessings, Kim
                                Message 15 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Greetings,
                                  Messages of this type do not belong on the list,  if you have a problem, contact the list owner off list.
                                  Bright Blessings,
                                  Kim


                                  At 04:15 PM 8/2/2006, you wrote:
                                  I’ve cancelled my subscription to this membership, yet I still get emails. Can you please take me off the list.

                                  Thanks.
                                   
                                  Laura La Rue
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Kaylor
                                  Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:11 PM
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                   

                                  The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi.

                                  About US auto makers. Isn't it ironic that CAFE standards haven't been raised since the mid-1980's? The US is the only developed nation to actually have an average reduction in automobile fuel efficiency in the past ten years. Why aren't CAFE standards raised? While I would shy away from pointing fingers directly- there is a lot of blame centered around the United Auto Workers and the mid-west politicians. The UAW claimes that raising CAFE standards will jepordize passenger safety because to obtain a more fuel efficient vehicle major weight reductions will have to take place. Also, the UAW and domestic car manufacturing firms fear that raising fuel efficiency standards might give foreign competitors a strategic advantage because, just as was mentioned earlier in this post, Hond and Toyota have been successfully designing, manufacturing, and selling more efficient vehicles for several decades now.

                                  It is rather ironic that Ford and GM are losing money hand over fist not simply because they are losing market share in the compact/sub-compact categories, but mainly because their high profit margin SUV and truck categories are having to compete against Toyota and Honda SUV and truck models. Looks like domestic auto production is declining on all fronts which is unfortunate.

                                  Sean

                                   

                                  From: "Jim & Janet" <jhd1@...>
                                  Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                  Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:36:05 -0500
                                  You heard it on Marketplace on Tuesday. http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html
                                  Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business news.
                                  Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer attention to "business" news.
                                  Jim Duncan
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Ariel Thomann
                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  Cc: bsyed@... ; houstonpeakoil@...
                                  Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                   

                                  I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                                  now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                                  family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                                  a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                                  compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                                  anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                                  else catch that program?

                                  Ariel
                                  - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                                  there is NO ONE who will help.
                                  - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                                  ------------------------------------

                                  > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                                  > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                                  > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                                  > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                                  > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                                  > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                                  >
                                  > Bashir A. Syed
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Ariel Thomann
                                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Cc: tigger@...
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                                  > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                                  >
                                  > Ariel
                                  ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                                  > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                                  > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                                  > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                                  > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                                  > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                                  > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                                  > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                                  > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                                  > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                                  > there and see what you guys think.
                                  > >>
                                  > >
                                  > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                                  > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                                  > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                                  > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                                  > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                                  > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                                  > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                                  > probably in the works before W. became President.
                                  > >
                                  > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                                  > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                                  > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                                  > >
                                  > > Paul
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                                   

                                • Paul Archer
                                  ... For those of you who don t quite get what s different about this engine, let me attempt an explaination. First, a normal engine uses a four-stroke cycle.
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Yesterday, Ariel Thomann wrote:

                                    > Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here
                                    > is their own website: : http://www.scuderigroup.com/
                                    >

                                    For those of you who don't quite get what's different about this engine, let
                                    me attempt an explaination.

                                    First, a normal engine uses a four-stroke cycle.


                                    Piston movement: down up down up
                                    Action happening: intake compression power exhaust

                                    In other words, as the piston moves down, it takes in a fuel/air mixture.
                                    The valves close, and the piston moves up, compressing the air (and fuel).
                                    The piston gets (almost to) the top of the stroke, and the spark plug fires,
                                    igniting the air/fuel mixture, and starting the power stroke. The expanding
                                    gasses push the piston down, providing power. The piston moves back up, and
                                    the exhaust gas is released.

                                    What happens in the Scuderi engine
                                    (http://scuderigroup.com/technology/images/scuderi_piston2.jpg) is that the
                                    air/fuel mixture (or possibly just the air, and the fuel is injected later)
                                    flows from the first piston (on the left) to the second piston (on the
                                    right).
                                    The second piston acts like the piston in a normal engine (performing the
                                    four phases I listed above). The first piston is ganged to the second, so
                                    they move (roughly) in phase.
                                    Every time the second piston moves down (on intake and power), the first
                                    piston does too, filling up with air. Every time the second piston moves up
                                    (on compression and exhaust), the first on does too, pushing air into the
                                    chamber between the pistons.

                                    What this means is that with a normal engine, a piston can take in the
                                    volume of one cylinder every cycle. With the Scuderi engine, the piston (the
                                    power piston on the right, that is) takes in the volume of two cylinders
                                    every cycle.

                                    I don't honestly know if this is really any better than a standard
                                    supercharger, since that's all this really is. (A supercharger uses a
                                    compressor turbine driven directly off the engine to compress incoming air
                                    to get more in the cylinder. A turbocharger, BTW, does the same job, but is
                                    driven from exhaust gas pressure.)

                                    I also question the wisdom of a four-cylinder engine (that according to the
                                    website produces as much power as a six-cylinder engine) that only fires on
                                    two cylinders. The problem here, especially if it does produce as much power
                                    as a six-cylinder engine, is that it means the power cylinder is doing three
                                    times the work (and producing three times the heat) of a cylinder in a
                                    regular car. That points to the potential for heat-related problems.

                                    There is potential here, though. Using a piston to compress the incoming air
                                    is probably cheaper (in terms of mechanical efficiency) than a supercharger.
                                    And it would produce much higher boost. A standard turbocharger (I can't
                                    give you numbers for superchargers, 'cause I don't know as much about them)
                                    produces around 8lbs(per square inch) of boost. Performance modders rarely
                                    jack them up past 12lbs because of reliability issues, and 15lbs (which is a
                                    full atmosphere) of boost is pretty much the max you can run them at without
                                    a high risk of failure.
                                    By doubling the amount of air going into the power cylinder, they're
                                    effectively doubling the atmospheric pressue, which would be like 15lbs
                                    boost from a turbo/super-charger.
                                    Their website mentions being able to fire the spark after TDC (top dead
                                    center), and having a superfast burn. In a normal engine, the spark is fired
                                    before the piston is done compressing the gas, so that it's burning well
                                    by the time the piston is moving down. That's inefficient. So being able to
                                    produce a complete burn after TDC is a win.


                                    Paul
                                  • Henry H Haynes
                                    At what psi does spontaneous combustion become a factor with a gasoline/air mixture? Henry ... For those of you who don t quite get what s different about this
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      At what psi does spontaneous combustion become a factor with a gasoline/air mixture?

                                      Henry

                                      Paul Archer <tigger@...> wrote:
                                      Yesterday, Ariel Thomann wrote:

                                      > Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here
                                      > is their own website: : http://www.scuderig roup.com/
                                      >

                                      For those of you who don't quite get what's different about this engine, let
                                      me attempt an explaination.

                                      First, a normal engine uses a four-stroke cycle.

                                      Piston movement: down up down up
                                      Action happening: intake compression power exhaust

                                      In other words, as the piston moves down, it takes in a fuel/air mixture.
                                      The valves close, and the piston moves up, compressing the air (and fuel).
                                      The piston gets (almost to) the top of the stroke, and the spark plug fires,
                                      igniting the air/fuel mixture, and starting the power stroke. The expanding
                                      gasses push the piston down, providing power. The piston moves back up, and
                                      the exhaust gas is released.

                                      What happens in the Scuderi engine
                                      (http://scuderigroup .com/technology/ images/scuderi_ piston2.jpg) is that the
                                      air/fuel mixture (or possibly just the air, and the fuel is injected later)
                                      flows from the first piston (on the left) to the second piston (on the
                                      right).
                                      The second piston acts like the piston in a normal engine (performing the
                                      four phases I listed above). The first piston is ganged to the second, so
                                      they move (roughly) in phase.
                                      Every time the second piston moves down (on intake and power), the first
                                      piston does too, filling up with air. Every time the second piston moves up
                                      (on compression and exhaust), the first on does too, pushing air into the
                                      chamber between the pistons.

                                      What this means is that with a normal engine, a piston can take in the
                                      volume of one cylinder every cycle. With the Scuderi engine, the piston (the
                                      power piston on the right, that is) takes in the volume of two cylinders
                                      every cycle.

                                      I don't honestly know if this is really any better than a standard
                                      supercharger, since that's all this really is. (A supercharger uses a
                                      compressor turbine driven directly off the engine to compress incoming air
                                      to get more in the cylinder. A turbocharger, BTW, does the same job, but is
                                      driven from exhaust gas pressure.)

                                      I also question the wisdom of a four-cylinder engine (that according to the
                                      website produces as much power as a six-cylinder engine) that only fires on
                                      two cylinders. The problem here, especially if it does produce as much power
                                      as a six-cylinder engine, is that it means the power cylinder is doing three
                                      times the work (and producing three times the heat) of a cylinder in a
                                      regular car. That points to the potential for heat-related problems.

                                      There is potential here, though. Using a piston to compress the incoming air
                                      is probably cheaper (in terms of mechanical efficiency) than a supercharger.
                                      And it would produce much higher boost. A standard turbocharger (I can't
                                      give you numbers for superchargers, 'cause I don't know as much about them)
                                      produces around 8lbs(per square inch) of boost. Performance modders rarely
                                      jack them up past 12lbs because of reliability issues, and 15lbs (which is a
                                      full atmosphere) of boost is pretty much the max you can run them at without
                                      a high risk of failure.
                                      By doubling the amount of air going into the power cylinder, they're
                                      effectively doubling the atmospheric pressue, which would be like 15lbs
                                      boost from a turbo/super- charger.
                                      Their website mentions being able to fire the spark after TDC (top dead
                                      center), and having a superfast burn. In a normal engine, the spark is fired
                                      before the piston is done compressing the gas, so that it's burning well
                                      by the time the piston is moving down. That's inefficient. So being able to
                                      produce a complete burn after TDC is a win.

                                      Paul

                                    • Paul Archer
                                      Good question. It s one I don t know the answer to, and part of the reason why I m unsure about the promise of this new engine design. ... [snip]
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Good question. It's one I don't know the answer to, and part of the reason
                                        why I'm unsure about the promise of this new engine design.

                                        8:35am, Henry H Haynes wrote:

                                        > At what psi does spontaneous combustion become a factor with a gasoline/air mixture?
                                        >
                                        > Henry
                                        >
                                        > Paul Archer <tigger@...> wrote: Yesterday, Ariel Thomann wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here
                                        > > is their own website: : http://www.scuderigroup.com/
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > For those of you who don't quite get what's different about this engine, let
                                        > me attempt an explaination.
                                        [snip]
                                      • Robert Johnston
                                        Depends on the temperature, of course. At atmospheric pressure, the autoignition temperature (AIT) defines the point at which spontaneous ignition occurs.
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment

                                          Depends on the temperature, of course.  At atmospheric pressure, the autoignition temperature (AIT) defines the point at which spontaneous ignition occurs.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoignition_temperature reports 275°C for gasoline (in air).  Normally, AIT is measured at atmospheric pressure. 

                                           

                                          There is a brief discussion of an apparatus to measure the effect of pressure on the AIT found at http://www.ptb.de/de/org/3/34/341/goedde.htm.  Basically, as pressure increases, the AIT decreases, but there is a limit to this effect due since increased pressure also shifts the liquid-vapor equilibrium towards the liquid phase.

                                           

                                          The Semenov Equation giving the effect of pressure on AIT is shown on p. 4 of this article, with a graph:  http://www.me.berkeley.edu/ME140/Handout-1.pdf

                                           

                                          There is a lot more in the literature on this, of course, but those are a few free references that showed up on Google.  As the article points out, diesel engines are designed to run in that fashion (no spark); that’s why they are so much fun to start in an Alaskan winter!

                                           

                                          Robert Johnston

                                           


                                          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Paul Archer
                                          Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:17 PM
                                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                                           

                                          Good question. It's one I don't know the answer to, and part of the reason
                                          why I'm unsure about the promise of this new engine design.

                                          8:35am, Henry H Haynes wrote:

                                          > At what psi does spontaneous combustion become a factor with a
                                          gasoline/air mixture?
                                          >
                                          > Henry
                                          >
                                          > Paul Archer <tigger@...>
                                          wrote: Yesterday, Ariel Thomann wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this
                                          Scuderi engine, here
                                          > > is their own website: : http://www.scuderig roup.com/
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > For those of you who don't quite get what's different about this engine,
                                          let
                                          > me attempt an explaination.
                                          [snip]

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