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RE: [HoustonPeakOil] Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

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  • Israel Palacios
    There is an unofficial electronic archive for KPFT or at least there used to be. It can be found by googling KPFT. _____ From: hreg@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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      There is an unofficial electronic archive for KPFT or at least there used to be.  It can be found by googling KPFT.

       


      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Randy Scott
      Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:11 PM
      To: Ariel Thomann; hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: bsyed@...; houstonpeakoil@...
      Subject: Re: [HoustonPeakOil] Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

       

      I didn't hear the program, but maybe you're thinking of the Sterling engine?

      Randy

      --- Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@pol. net> wrote:

      > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio
      that I can't find
      > now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write
      down the key
      > family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by
      someone from
      > a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or
      gasoline,
      > compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and
      cheaper than
      > anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players.
      Did anybody
      > else catch that program?
      >
      > Ariel
      >

      Petition to challenge Dwayne Bohac to give back dirty money
      http://www.thepetit ionsite.com/ takeaction/ 382026427

      Mark McDavid for Congress - Tx Dist 138
      http://www.votemcda vid.com/

      http://randyscott. fortunecity. com/blog/

    • Ariel Thomann
      Save your pennies and put your name down; the plug-ins (Prius and others) are around the corner. Ariel - We are all Human beings here together. We have to
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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        Save your pennies and put your name down; the plug-ins (Prius and others) are around the
        corner.

        Ariel
        - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
        there is NO ONE who will help.
        - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
        ------------------------------------

        > Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is an
        > underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare to keep
        > promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking their butt with
        > hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil companies, government
        > and car makers are all in this together, but while oil companies are making record
        > profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may not recover. I want to know
        > what other think and if they have some reasons why this is happening. I personally
        > have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT by a Ford again or an American car.
        > I really want to a prius or what I will probably do is build an electric car or
        > biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out there and see what you guys think.
        >
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        > Toyota becomes No. 2 automaker
        > U.S. sales for Ford, Chrysler and GM drop steeply in July, while
        > Japanese company boasts a 16.2 percent increase.
        > August 2 2006: 9:19 AM EDT
        >
        > DETROIT (Reuters) -- U.S. auto sales slid 17 percent in July as
        > Americans shunned trucks and opted for more fuel-efficient cars,
        > catapulting Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. past Ford Motor Co. into the No. 2 spot for the
        > first time.
        >
        > Detroit-based automakers suffered double-digit declines in sales from the peak of last
        > summer's incentive-driven boom, with DaimlerChrysler AG's (Charts) Chrysler Group and
        > Ford hardest-hit in a market hurt by high interest rates and gas prices.
        > parked_autos_cars2.03.jpg
        > Photo Gallery launchSee more photos
        > Background on the story
        > Ford reportedly plans more job cuts
        > Automaker's acceleration of cost savings could mean loss of additional posts,
        > elimination of more benefits, newspaper says. (more)
        > Plug-in hybrids: Not ready for primetime
        > Making an affordable hybrid car that can be charged from an outlet isn't as easy as
        > just adding cord. (more)
        > SUVs are out. So what's hot now? SUVs.
        > Crossovers like the Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX330 are replacing traditional
        > truck-based SUVs in customers' hearts. (more)
        >
        > Chrysler Group lost 37 percent and Ford (Charts) 34 percent, but
        > Toyota (Charts) jumped an industry-leading 16 percent, driven by a 25 percent surge
        > for passenger cars such as the Corolla.
        >
        > Sales for Japan's Honda Motor Co. (Charts) gained 10 percent and South Korea's Hyundai
        > Motor Co. added 6 percent, putting all three Asian automakers on track for a larger
        > share of a softening U.S. market for new vehicles.
        >
        > General Motors Corp. (Charts), the No. 1 automaker worldwide, posted a 19.5 percent
        > drop in U.S. sales, in line with expectations, given the tough year-earlier
        > comparison.
        >
        > Autodata Corp. reported that overall sales of U.S. light vehicles came in at a
        > seasonally adjusted annualized rate of 17.24 million units in July, down from a
        > near-record high of 20.72 million a year earlier when the traditional Big Three
        > offered employee discounts to all buyers.
        >
        > Chrysler Group, which has been working to sell off inventory ahead of the launch of
        > key new models, was the only automaker to bring back employee pricing this July, a
        > sequel that fizzled with U.S. consumers.
        >
        > DaimlerChrysler's sales dropped 34 percent in July, a
        > steeper-than-expected drop that analysts said underscored Chrysler's reliance on
        > rolling out new hit products rather than competing on price.
        >
        > Chrysler responded to its weak July sales numbers by extending its package of
        > discounts, including employee-level pricing and
        > zero-percent financing, until the end of August.
        >
        > Ford's sales were weighed down by a 44 percent slide in its profitable truck lineup,
        > an area of the market the automaker has long dominated.
        >
        > "Ford and Chrysler were just simply disappointing," said Jesse Toprak, an analyst at
        > Edmunds.com who had forecast higher sales. "It's a quite dramatic decline."
        >
        > Said George Magliano, analyst at Global Insight: "I think for Chrysler it's very
        > short-term and shows how product sensitive they are. I'm more worried about Ford. Ford
        > is more structural, I think."
        >
        > GM, which set off last summer's price-war, has steered clear of a
        > repeat of the same kind of sweeping rebates this year.
        >
        > "I would view our results as very solid," said GM sales analyst Paul Ballew. "In fact,
        > better than what we expected at the beginning of the month, and better than we thought
        > even at midmonth."
        > Hangover from the boom
        >
        > Last year's summer price war boosted the number of cars sold but
        > sacrificed profitability for both the U.S. automakers and their
        > dealers. The incentives also made monthly shifts in auto sales highly volatile.
        >
        > "What we aren't going to have in (2006) was this roller-coaster that we were on in
        > (2005)," Ford sales analyst George Pipas said. "We're aren't going to see the peaks
        > and hopefully we won't see the valley."
        >
        > For the year to date, SUV sales are down 19 percent, while pickup
        > truck sales have dropped 16 percent, said Paul Taylor, chief economist with the
        > National Automobile Dealers Association.
        >
        > That puts pressure on the traditional Big Three in coming months to increase
        > incentives and rely more heavily on lower-margin sales to commercial fleet operators,
        > which include car rental companies, he said.
        >
        > Reflecting their fall from favor with consumers, large trucks and SUVs carried
        > higher-than-average discounts of more than $5,200 on average in July, according to
        > Edmunds.com.
        >
        > Despite the drop in July sales, GM, Ford and Chrysler all reported progress in
        > reducing vehicle inventories, in part because of
        > production cutbacks.
        >
        > GM had 930,000 vehicles at the end of July, down 21 percent from the previous month,
        > while Ford reduced its inventory by nearly 15 percent to 677,000 vehicles. Chrysler's
        > inventory declined 14 percent to
        > 560,210 vehicles.
        >
        > The defection from SUVs also hurt some luxury car manufacturers in July. Porsche AG
        > suffered a 23 percent drop in demand for its Cayenne model, even as its overall sales
        > rose 12 percent on the back of strong demand for the Cayman coupe.
        >
        > By contrast, new compact and sub-compact models have proved popular. Nissan Motor Co.
        > said it sold 2,856 of the new Versa compacts in July, double the company's internal
        > forecast.
        >
        > Nissan, which is considering a tie-up that would extend its current alliance with
        > Renault SA to include GM, posted a drop in overall sales of 16 percent, outperforming
        > the market by a slight margin.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Ariel Thomann
        Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months... Ariel - We are
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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          Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and mass
          produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...

          Ariel
          - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
          there is NO ONE who will help.
          - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
          ------------------------------------

          > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
          >
          >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is an
          >> underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare to
          >> keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking their butt
          >> with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil companies,
          >> government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil companies are
          >> making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may not recover. I
          >> want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why this is happening.
          >> I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT by a Ford again or an
          >> American car. I really want to a prius or what I will probably do is build an
          >> electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out there and see what you guys
          >> think.
          >>
          >
          > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is due
          > to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically takes
          > several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I don't know
          > how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new vs how much
          > has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body on an existing
          > chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast available with a
          > 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was probably in the
          > works before W. became President.
          >
          > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a much
          > better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take advantage
          > of today's higher gas prices.
          >
          > Paul
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Bashir Syed
          It s the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions, which the corporations don t have to worry, and money saved goes to the top
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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            It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions, which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
             
            Bashir A. Syed 
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
            Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

            Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and mass
            produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...

            Ariel
            - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
            there is NO ONE who will help.
            - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
            ------------ --------- --------- ------

            > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
            >
            >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is an
            >> underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare to
            >> keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking their butt
            >> with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil companies,
            >> government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil companies are
            >> making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may not recover. I
            >> want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why this is happening.
            >> I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT by a Ford again or an
            >> American car. I really want to a prius or what I will probably do is build an
            >> electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out there and see what you guys
            >> think.
            >>
            >
            > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is due
            > to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically takes
            > several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I don't know
            > how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new vs how much
            > has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body on an existing
            > chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast available with a
            > 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was probably in the
            > works before W. became President.
            >
            > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a much
            > better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take advantage
            > of today's higher gas prices.
            >
            > Paul
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

          • blpasemann
            I have been reading a lot and I read about the car companies not wanting to promote hybrids or electric cars. Here s an article from the energy bulleting
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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              I have been reading a lot and I read about the car companies not
              wanting to promote hybrids or electric cars. Here's an article from
              the energy bulleting website. This kind of talk from GM will never
              get me to buy one of their products. I read similar things from ford,
              like when they are scaling back there hybrid production quantities
              from earlier statements. I just don't think they want to do it and
              are being paid by big oil.

              GM article:
              -------------------------------------------------------
              Lutz: GM building hybrids for good press
              LeftLane News
              General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week
              that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve
              its public image. "Hybrids are technologically of doubtful benefit,
              and expensive, but necessary from a political and public relations
              point of view," Lutz told Just-Auto. "Toyota has said, economically,
              hybrids make no sense. The reduction in fuel [consumption] does not
              pay for the technological content and cost of the vehicle so therefore
              economically it remains fairly nonsensical, so that's the left-brain
              analytical argument."

              "The right brain is it's the popular thing to do, many people believe
              that if we all drove hybrids the world would suddenly get cooler again
              and then it's the patriotic thing to do because if you drive a hybrid
              you will no longer be funding the Arab terrorists, and so forth."

              "So, with all those beliefs out there, you have to do a hybrid for
              public policy reasons."

              "I don't care how much money you get out but when you've got two
              drivetrains, the sophisticated electronics and a big lithium-ion
              battery, you've got cost."

              Lutz says diesels are also problematic. "The modern diesel is becoming
              more and more expensive as we have to have to gear up to meet Euro 5,
              which is very difficult."

              "Let's not forget, a diesel engine is always going to be more
              expensive than a conventional petrol engine, that's the laws of physics."

              In March, Lutz said GM is most enthusiastic about ethanol. "We think
              running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the
              world," he said.
              (21 July 2006)
              >
              > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are
              > seeing is due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go
              through.
              > It typically takes several years for a manufacturer to design and
              implement
              > something new. I don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years,
              > depending on how much is new vs how much has already been designed.
              > (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body on an existing chassis.)
              > Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast available
              with a
              > 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
              probably in
              > the works before W. became President.
              >
              > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
              probably
              > in a much better position from the start to offer more
              fuel-efficient cars
              > and take advantage of today's higher gas prices.
              >
              > Paul
              >
            • Roy Holder
              ... up, and mass ... P51 tok 13 months to flying prototype(sep39 to may40), in 1940, but did not enter production untill around mid 41. The Mustang was built
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                At 12:54 PM 8/2/2006 -0500, you wrote:
                >Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool
                up, and mass
                >produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...

                P51 tok 13 months to flying prototype(sep39 to may40), in 1940, but did not
                enter production untill around mid 41.
                'The Mustang was built for the highest performance with less thought for
                longevity'
                Not the kind of product to make payments on for 5 years.

                P-47 took 11 months to prototype, and another 10 to set up production.

                both models did not inter combat untill late 43. In reality is was more
                like years to get a new model out.


                Car manufactures must go thru the federal government and NTSB safety
                programs to get certified before they can sell any vehicle with a speed
                over 45 mph.

                At national energy conferences, Ive heard quotes of years of paperwork and
                over 10 mil $ per vehicle (+5 or so crash test units) to get safety
                certified for highway speeds. That is part of the reason electrics are
                slowly appearing as NEV's, and new EV manufacturers are nonexistnat.




                >
                >Ariel
                >- We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
                since otherwise
                >there is NO ONE who will help.
                >- All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                generations.
                >------------------------------------
                >
                >> 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                >>
                >>> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel
                there is an
                >>> underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and
                marketshare to
                >>> keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and
                kicking their butt
                >>> with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                companies,
                >>> government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                companies are
                >>> making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may not
                recover. I
                >>> want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why this is
                happening.
                >>> I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT by a
                Ford again or an
                >>> American car. I really want to a prius or what I will probably do is
                build an
                >>> electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out there and see
                what you guys
                >>> think.
                >>>
                >>
                >> I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are
                seeing is due
                >> to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It
                typically takes
                >> several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new.
                I don't know
                >> how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                vs how much
                >> has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                on an existing
                >> chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                available with a
                >> 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                probably in the
                >> works before W. became President.
                >>
                >> Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
                probably in a much
                >> better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and
                take advantage
                >> of today's higher gas prices.
                >>
                >> Paul
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Ariel Thomann
                I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can t find now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                  now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                  family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                  a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                  compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                  anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                  else catch that program?

                  Ariel
                  - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                  there is NO ONE who will help.
                  - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                  ------------------------------------

                  > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                  > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                  > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                  > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                  > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                  > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                  >
                  > Bashir A. Syed
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Ariel Thomann
                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  > Cc: tigger@...
                  > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                  >
                  >
                  > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                  > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                  >
                  > Ariel
                  ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                  > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                  > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                  > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                  > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                  > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                  > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                  > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                  > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                  > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                  > there and see what you guys think.
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                  > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                  > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                  > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                  > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                  > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                  > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                  > probably in the works before W. became President.
                  > >
                  > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                  > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                  > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                  > >
                  > > Paul
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Randy Scott
                  I didn t hear the program, but maybe you re thinking of the Sterling engine? Randy ... Petition to challenge Dwayne Bohac to give back dirty money
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I didn't hear the program, but maybe you're thinking of the Sterling engine?

                    Randy



                    --- Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@...> wrote:

                    > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                    > now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                    > family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                    > a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                    > compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                    > anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                    > else catch that program?
                    >
                    > Ariel
                    >

                    Petition to challenge Dwayne Bohac to give back dirty money
                    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/382026427

                    Mark McDavid for Congress - Tx Dist 138
                    http://www.votemcdavid.com/

                    http://randyscott.fortunecity.com/blog/
                  • Julie Hendricks
                    I heard part of an extensive piece about Nikola Tesla, a very prolific inventor of the 19th century, yesterday on KPFT around noon time. I did a quick web
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment

                      I heard part of an extensive piece about Nikola Tesla, a very prolific inventor of the 19th century, yesterday on KPFT around noon time.  I did a quick web search and found the following about an engine design of his.  Maybe this is what you are looking for:

                       

                      http://www.tfcbooks.com/articles/tdt7.htm

                       

                      Julie Hendricks, AIA LEED AP

                      Kirksey
                      6909 Portwest Drive
                      Houston Texas 77024
                      v 713 426 7566
                      f 713 726 7066

                      julieh@...
                      www.kirksey.com

                       


                      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ariel Thomann
                      Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:59 PM
                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                      Cc: bsyed@...; houstonpeakoil@...
                      Subject: Re: [hreg]

                       

                      I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                      now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                      family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                      a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                      compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                      anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                      else catch that program?

                      Ariel
                      - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                      there is NO ONE who will help.
                      - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                      ------------ --------- --------- ------

                      > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and
                      pensions,
                      > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the
                      top of the
                      > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED,
                      which has
                      > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There
                      are a lot of
                      > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more
                      reliable, but it
                      > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                      >
                      > Bashir A. Syed
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Ariel Thomann
                      > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                      > Cc: tigger@...
                      > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                      >
                      >
                      > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool
                      up, and
                      > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                      >
                      > Ariel
                      ------------ --------- --------- ------
                      >
                      > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> Interesting article today, that
                      w:st="on">Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                      > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and
                      marketshare
                      > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and
                      w:st="on">Toyota and kicking
                      > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the
                      oil
                      > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while
                      oil
                      > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money
                      and may
                      > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons
                      why
                      > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I
                      will NOT
                      > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I
                      will
                      > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this
                      out
                      > there and see what you guys think.
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we)
                      are seeing is
                      > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It
                      typically
                      > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something
                      new. I
                      > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how
                      much is new
                      > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a
                      new body
                      > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling
                      beast
                      > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago.
                      It was
                      > probably in the works before W. became President.
                      > >
                      > > Honda and Toyota
                      have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                      > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and
                      take
                      > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                      > >
                      > > Paul
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                    • Jim & Janet
                      You heard it on Marketplace on Tuesday. http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html Marketplace is an excellent program for Public
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business news.
                        Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer attention to "business" news.
                        Jim Duncan
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                        I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                        now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                        family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                        a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                        compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                        anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                        else catch that program?

                        Ariel
                        - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                        there is NO ONE who will help.
                        - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                        ------------ --------- --------- ------

                        > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                        > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                        > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                        > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                        > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                        > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                        >
                        > Bashir A. Syed
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Ariel Thomann
                        > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                        > Cc: tigger@...
                        > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                        >
                        >
                        > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                        > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                        >
                        > Ariel
                        ------------ --------- --------- ------
                        >
                        > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                        > >
                        > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                        > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                        > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                        > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                        > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                        > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                        > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                        > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                        > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                        > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                        > there and see what you guys think.
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                        > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                        > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                        > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                        > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                        > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                        > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                        > probably in the works before W. became President.
                        > >
                        > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                        > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                        > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                        > >
                        > > Paul
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                      • Sean Kaylor
                        The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi. About US auto makers. Isn t it ironic that CAFE
                        Message 11 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment

                          The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi.

                          About US auto makers. Isn't it ironic that CAFE standards haven't been raised since the mid-1980's? The US is the only developed nation to actually have an average reduction in automobile fuel efficiency in the past ten years. Why aren't CAFE standards raised? While I would shy away from pointing fingers directly- there is a lot of blame centered around the United Auto Workers and the mid-west politicians. The UAW claimes that raising CAFE standards will jepordize passenger safety because to obtain a more fuel efficient vehicle major weight reductions will have to take place. Also, the UAW and domestic car manufacturing firms fear that raising fuel efficiency standards might give foreign competitors a strategic advantage because, just as was mentioned earlier in this post, Hond and Toyota have been successfully designing, manufacturing, and selling more efficient vehicles for several decades now.

                          It is rather ironic that Ford and GM are losing money hand over fist not simply because they are losing market share in the compact/sub-compact categories, but mainly because their high profit margin SUV and truck categories are having to compete against Toyota and Honda SUV and truck models. Looks like domestic auto production is declining on all fronts which is unfortunate.

                          Sean 

                           


                          From: "Jim & Janet" <jhd1@...>
                          Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                          To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                          Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:36:05 -0500

                          Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business news.
                          Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer attention to "business" news.
                          Jim Duncan
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                          Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                          I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                          now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                          family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                          a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                          compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                          anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                          else catch that program?

                          Ariel
                          - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                          there is NO ONE who will help.
                          - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                          ------------ --------- --------- ------

                          > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                          > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                          > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                          > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                          > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                          > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                          >
                          > Bashir A. Syed
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Ariel Thomann
                          > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                          > Cc: tigger@...
                          > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                          >
                          >
                          > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                          > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                          >
                          > Ariel
                          ------------ --------- --------- ------
                          >
                          > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                          > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                          > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                          > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                          > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                          > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                          > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                          > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                          > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                          > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                          > there and see what you guys think.
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                          > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                          > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                          > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                          > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                          > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                          > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                          > probably in the works before W. became President.
                          > >
                          > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                          > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                          > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                          > >
                          > > Paul
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links


                        • Laura
                          I ve cancelled my subscription to this membership, yet I still get emails. Can you please take me off the list. Thanks. Laura La Rue ... From:
                          Message 12 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment

                            I’ve cancelled my subscription to this membership, yet I still get emails. Can you please take me off the list.


                            Thanks.

                             

                            Laura La Rue

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Kaylor
                            Sent:
                            Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:11 PM
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                             

                            The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi.

                            About US auto makers. Isn't it ironic that CAFE standards haven't been raised since the mid-1980's? The US is the only developed nation to actually have an average reduction in automobile fuel efficiency in the past ten years. Why aren't CAFE standards raised? While I would shy away from pointing fingers directly- there is a lot of blame centered around the United Auto Workers and the mid-west politicians. The UAW claimes that raising CAFE standards will jepordize passenger safety because to obtain a more fuel efficient vehicle major weight reductions will have to take place. Also, the UAW and domestic car manufacturing firms fear that raising fuel efficiency standards might give foreign competitors a strategic advantage because, just as was mentioned earlier in this post, Hond and Toyota have been successfully designing, manufacturing, and selling more efficient vehicles for several decades now.

                            It is rather ironic that Ford and GM are losing money hand over fist not simply because they are losing market share in the compact/sub- compact categories, but mainly because their high profit margin SUV and truck categories are having to compete against Toyota and Honda SUV and truck models. Looks like domestic auto production is declining on all fronts which is unfortunate.

                            Sean 

                             


                            From: "Jim & Janet" <jhd1@earthlink. net>
                            Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                            To: <hreg@yahoogroups. com>
                            Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                            Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:36:05 -0500

                            Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business news.

                            Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer attention to "business" news.

                            Jim Duncan

                             

                            ----- Original Message -----

                            Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM

                            Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                             

                            I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                            now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                            family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                            a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                            compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                            anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                            else catch that program?

                            Ariel
                            - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                            there is NO ONE who will help.
                            - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                            ------------ --------- --------- ------

                            > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                            > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                            > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                            > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                            > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                            > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                            >
                            > Bashir A. Syed
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Ariel Thomann
                            > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                            > Cc: tigger@...
                            > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                            >
                            >
                            > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                            > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                            >
                            > Ariel
                            ------------ --------- --------- ------
                            >
                            > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                            > >
                            > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                            > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                            > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                            > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                            > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                            > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                            > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                            > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                            > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                            > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                            > there and see what you guys think.
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                            > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                            > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                            > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                            > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                            > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                            > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                            > probably in the works before W. became President.
                            > >
                            > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                            > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                            > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                            > >
                            > > Paul
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                             

                          • blpasemann
                            Laura, at the very least you should be able to go into your yahoo/group settings and disable email messages from this group. At least the emails will stop.
                            Message 13 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Laura,
                              at the very least you should be able to go into your yahoo/group
                              settings and disable email messages from this group. At least the
                              emails will stop.

                              --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Laura" <laura@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I've cancelled my subscription to this membership, yet I still get
                              > emails. Can you please take me off the list.
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Laura La Rue
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              > Sean Kaylor
                              > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:11 PM
                              > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine
                              > designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi.
                              >
                              > About US auto makers. Isn't it ironic that CAFE standards haven't been
                              > raised since the mid-1980's? The US is the only developed nation to
                              > actually have an average reduction in automobile fuel efficiency in the
                              > past ten years. Why aren't CAFE standards raised? While I would shy away
                              > from pointing fingers directly- there is a lot of blame centered around
                              > the United Auto Workers and the mid-west politicians. The UAW claimes
                              > that raising CAFE standards will jepordize passenger safety because to
                              > obtain a more fuel efficient vehicle major weight reductions will have
                              > to take place. Also, the UAW and domestic car manufacturing firms fear
                              > that raising fuel efficiency standards might give foreign competitors a
                              > strategic advantage because, just as was mentioned earlier in this post,
                              > Hond and Toyota have been successfully designing, manufacturing, and
                              > selling more efficient vehicles for several decades now.
                              >
                              > It is rather ironic that Ford and GM are losing money hand over fist not
                              > simply because they are losing market share in the compact/sub-compact
                              > categories, but mainly because their high profit margin SUV and truck
                              > categories are having to compete against Toyota and Honda SUV and truck
                              > models. Looks like domestic auto production is declining on all fronts
                              > which is unfortunate.
                              >
                              > Sean
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _____
                              >
                              >
                              > From: "Jim & Janet" <jhd1@...>
                              > Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                              > To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                              > Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:36:05 -0500
                              >
                              > You heard it on Marketplace on Tuesday. http://marketplace.
                              > <http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html>
                              > publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html
                              >
                              > Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business
                              > news.
                              >
                              > Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a
                              > very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or
                              > world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer
                              > attention to "business" news.
                              >
                              > Jim Duncan
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              >
                              > From: Ariel Thomann <mailto:ajthomann@...>
                              >
                              > To: hreg@yahoogroups. <mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com> com
                              >
                              > Cc: bsyed@worldnet. <mailto:bsyed@...> att.net ;
                              > houstonpeakoil@ <mailto:houstonpeakoil@...>
                              > lists.riseup.net
                              >
                              > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                              >
                              > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio
                              > that I can't find
                              > now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write
                              > down the key
                              > family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised
                              > by someone from
                              > a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel
                              > or gasoline,
                              > compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and
                              > cheaper than
                              > anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players.
                              > Did anybody
                              > else catch that program?
                              >
                              > Ariel
                              > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
                              > since otherwise
                              > there is NO ONE who will help.
                              > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                              > generations.
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance
                              > and pensions,
                              > > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to
                              > the top of the
                              > > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of
                              > GREED, which has
                              > > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers.
                              > There are a lot of
                              > > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more
                              > reliable, but it
                              > > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                              > >
                              > > Bashir A. Syed
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: Ariel Thomann
                              > > To: hreg@yahoogroups. <mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com> com
                              > > Cc: tigger@...
                              > > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                              > > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test,
                              > tool up, and
                              > > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                              > >
                              > > Ariel
                              > ------------------------------------
                              > >
                              > > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I
                              > feel there is
                              > > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and
                              > marketshare
                              > > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and
                              > kicking
                              > > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel
                              > the oil
                              > > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but
                              > while oil
                              > > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of
                              > money and may
                              > > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some
                              > reasons why
                              > > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but
                              > I will NOT
                              > > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I
                              > will
                              > > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put
                              > this out
                              > > there and see what you guys think.
                              > > >>
                              > > >
                              > > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we)
                              > are seeing is
                              > > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It
                              > typically
                              > > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement
                              > something new. I
                              > > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how
                              > much is new
                              > > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs
                              > a new body
                              > > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big,
                              > gas-guzzling beast
                              > > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so
                              > ago. It was
                              > > probably in the works before W. became President.
                              > > >
                              > > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
                              > probably in a
                              > > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars
                              > and take
                              > > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                              > > >
                              > > > Paul
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                            • Roxanne Boyer
                              Ok, now I know why GM stock is rated junk . Why does Bob Lutz think ethanol is the solution? Several studies and even my own have shown that if all the
                              Message 14 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Ok, now I know why GM stock is rated "junk".
                                Why does Bob Lutz think ethanol is the solution?
                                Several studies and even my own have shown that if all the available land in the US grew biomass for ethanol, only 10% (modern tech) to 20% (future tech) of our gasoline could be replaced by ethanol. (Only 6% of diesel consumption could be replaced by biodiesel.)  Biomass fuel is hugely inefficient way to convert land into energy.  Lutz has not done his homework.
                                 
                                I agree that it is difficult to put engine and electric trivetrains into the same car and make it economical.  Most families have two cars; why not have one for long distance (engine) and the other electric for short commutes.  It may not be for everyone, but, I bet there will be a profitable market.  I seems Bob Lutz has no vision for the future; he can only see what is now and thinks it will never change.  How do short sighted people like this get to be Vice Presidents?
                                 
                                 


                                blpasemann <blpasemann@...> wrote:
                                I have been reading a lot and I read about the car companies not
                                wanting to promote hybrids or electric cars. Here's an article from
                                the energy bulleting website. This kind of talk from GM will never
                                get me to buy one of their products. I read similar things from ford,
                                like when they are scaling back there hybrid production quantities
                                from earlier statements. I just don't think they want to do it and
                                are being paid by big oil.

                                GM article:
                                ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -------
                                Lutz: GM building hybrids for good press
                                LeftLane News
                                General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week
                                that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve
                                its public image. "Hybrids are technologically of doubtful benefit,
                                and expensive, but necessary from a political and public relations
                                point of view," Lutz told Just-Auto. "Toyota has said, economically,
                                hybrids make no sense. The reduction in fuel [consumption] does not
                                pay for the technological content and cost of the vehicle so therefore
                                economically it remains fairly nonsensical, so that's the left-brain
                                analytical argument."

                                "The right brain is it's the popular thing to do, many people believe
                                that if we all drove hybrids the world would suddenly get cooler again
                                and then it's the patriotic thing to do because if you drive a hybrid
                                you will no longer be funding the Arab terrorists, and so forth."

                                "So, with all those beliefs out there, you have to do a hybrid for
                                public policy reasons."

                                "I don't care how much money you get out but when you've got two
                                drivetrains, the sophisticated electronics and a big lithium-ion
                                battery, you've got cost."

                                Lutz says diesels are also problematic. "The modern diesel is becoming
                                more and more expensive as we have to have to gear up to meet Euro 5,
                                which is very difficult."

                                "Let's not forget, a diesel engine is always going to be more
                                expensive than a conventional petrol engine, that's the laws of physics."

                                In March, Lutz said GM is most enthusiastic about ethanol. "We think
                                running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the
                                world," he said.
                                (21 July 2006)
                                >
                                > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are
                                > seeing is due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go
                                through.
                                > It typically takes several years for a manufacturer to design and
                                implement
                                > something new. I don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years,
                                > depending on how much is new vs how much has already been designed.
                                > (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body on an existing chassis.)
                                > Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast available
                                with a
                                > 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                                probably in
                                > the works before W. became President.
                                >
                                > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
                                probably
                                > in a much better position from the start to offer more
                                fuel-efficient cars
                                > and take advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                                >
                                > Paul
                                >


                              • Ariel Thomann
                                No, thanks. I heard the Tesla thing too. This other was about an American inventor in the mid- to late-20th century. Ariel - We are all Human beings here
                                Message 15 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  No, thanks. I heard the Tesla thing too. This other was about an American inventor in
                                  the mid- to late-20th century.

                                  Ariel
                                  - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                                  there is NO ONE who will help.
                                  - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                                  ------------------------------------

                                  > I heard part of an extensive piece about Nikola Tesla, a very prolific inventor of the
                                  > 19th century, yesterday on KPFT around noon time. I did a quick web search and found
                                  > the following about an engine design of his. Maybe this is what you are looking for:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > http://www.tfcbooks.com/articles/tdt7.htm
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Julie Hendricks, AIA LEED AP
                                  >
                                  > Kirksey
                                  > 6909 Portwest Drive
                                  > Houston Texas 77024
                                  > v 713 426 7566
                                  > f 713 726 7066
                                  >
                                  > julieh@...
                                  > www.kirksey.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  >
                                  > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ariel Thomann
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:59 PM
                                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Cc: bsyed@...; houstonpeakoil@...
                                  > Subject: Re: [hreg]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't
                                  > find
                                  > now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                                  > family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone
                                  > from
                                  > a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                                  > compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                                  > anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                                  > else catch that program?
                                  >
                                  > Ariel
                                  > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                                  > there is NO ONE who will help.
                                  > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  >> It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance
                                  > and pensions,
                                  >> which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to
                                  > the top of the
                                  >> Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of
                                  > GREED, which has
                                  >> desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers.
                                  > There are a lot of
                                  >> neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more
                                  > reliable, but it
                                  >> does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                                  >>
                                  >> Bashir A. Syed
                                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                                  >> From: Ariel Thomann
                                  >> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hreg%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  >> Cc: tigger@... <mailto:tigger%40io.com>
                                  >> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                                  >> Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test,
                                  > tool up, and
                                  >> mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                                  >>
                                  >> Ariel
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >>
                                  >> > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                                  >> >
                                  >> >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I
                                  > feel there is
                                  >> an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and
                                  > marketshare
                                  >> to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and
                                  > kicking
                                  >> their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel
                                  > the oil
                                  >> companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but
                                  > while oil
                                  >> companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of
                                  > money and may
                                  >> not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some
                                  > reasons why
                                  >> this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but
                                  > I will NOT
                                  >> by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I
                                  > will
                                  >> probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put
                                  > this out
                                  >> there and see what you guys think.
                                  >> >>
                                  >> >
                                  >> > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we)
                                  > are seeing is
                                  >> due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It
                                  > typically
                                  >> takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement
                                  > something new. I
                                  >> don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how
                                  > much is new
                                  >> vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs
                                  > a new body
                                  >> on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big,
                                  > gas-guzzling beast
                                  >> available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so
                                  > ago. It was
                                  >> probably in the works before W. became President.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
                                  > probably in a
                                  >> much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars
                                  > and take
                                  >> advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Paul
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Ariel Thomann
                                  Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here is their own website: : http://www.scuderigroup.com/ Ariel - We are all
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here
                                    is their own website: : http://www.scuderigroup.com/

                                    Ariel
                                    - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                                    there is NO ONE who will help.
                                    - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                                    ------------------------------------

                                    > You heard it on Marketplace on Tuesday.
                                    > http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html Marketplace is an
                                    > excellent program for Public Radio quality business news. Often the much overlooked
                                    > business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not
                                    > make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start
                                    > paying closer attention to "business" news. Jim Duncan
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Ariel Thomann
                                    > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Cc: bsyed@... ; houstonpeakoil@...
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't
                                    > find now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down
                                    > the key family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by
                                    > someone from a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel
                                    > or gasoline, compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and
                                    > cheaper than anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big
                                    > players. Did anybody else catch that program?
                                    >
                                    > Ariel
                                    > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since
                                    > otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                                    > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                                    > generations. ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and
                                    > pensions, which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the
                                    > top of the Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of
                                    > GREED, which has desensitized them to think about the interests of their
                                    > customers. There are a lot of neat technologies which can be used in todays cars
                                    > to make them more reliable, but it does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the
                                    > APEX.
                                    > >
                                    > > Bashir A. Syed
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: Ariel Thomann
                                    > > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Cc: tigger@...
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                                    > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                                    > >
                                    > > Ariel
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                                    > > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                                    > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking their
                                    > butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                                    > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                                    > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                                    > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                                    > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                                    > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                                    > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                                    > there and see what you guys think.
                                    > > >>
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing
                                    > is
                                    > > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                                    > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                                    > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                                    > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                                    > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                                    > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                                    > probably in the works before W. became President.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                                    > > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                                    > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Paul
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Garth & Kim Travis
                                    Greetings, Messages of this type do not belong on the list, if you have a problem, contact the list owner off list. Bright Blessings, Kim
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Greetings,
                                      Messages of this type do not belong on the list,  if you have a problem, contact the list owner off list.
                                      Bright Blessings,
                                      Kim


                                      At 04:15 PM 8/2/2006, you wrote:
                                      I’ve cancelled my subscription to this membership, yet I still get emails. Can you please take me off the list.

                                      Thanks.
                                       
                                      Laura La Rue
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Kaylor
                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:11 PM
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                       

                                      The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi.

                                      About US auto makers. Isn't it ironic that CAFE standards haven't been raised since the mid-1980's? The US is the only developed nation to actually have an average reduction in automobile fuel efficiency in the past ten years. Why aren't CAFE standards raised? While I would shy away from pointing fingers directly- there is a lot of blame centered around the United Auto Workers and the mid-west politicians. The UAW claimes that raising CAFE standards will jepordize passenger safety because to obtain a more fuel efficient vehicle major weight reductions will have to take place. Also, the UAW and domestic car manufacturing firms fear that raising fuel efficiency standards might give foreign competitors a strategic advantage because, just as was mentioned earlier in this post, Hond and Toyota have been successfully designing, manufacturing, and selling more efficient vehicles for several decades now.

                                      It is rather ironic that Ford and GM are losing money hand over fist not simply because they are losing market share in the compact/sub-compact categories, but mainly because their high profit margin SUV and truck categories are having to compete against Toyota and Honda SUV and truck models. Looks like domestic auto production is declining on all fronts which is unfortunate.

                                      Sean

                                       

                                      From: "Jim & Janet" <jhd1@...>
                                      Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                      To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                      Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:36:05 -0500
                                      You heard it on Marketplace on Tuesday. http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html
                                      Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business news.
                                      Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer attention to "business" news.
                                      Jim Duncan
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Ariel Thomann
                                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                      Cc: bsyed@... ; houstonpeakoil@...
                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                       

                                      I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                                      now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                                      family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                                      a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                                      compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                                      anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                                      else catch that program?

                                      Ariel
                                      - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                                      there is NO ONE who will help.
                                      - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                                      ------------------------------------

                                      > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                                      > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                                      > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                                      > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                                      > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                                      > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                                      >
                                      > Bashir A. Syed
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Ariel Thomann
                                      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Cc: tigger@...
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                                      > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                                      >
                                      > Ariel
                                      ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                                      > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                                      > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                                      > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                                      > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                                      > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                                      > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                                      > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                                      > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                                      > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                                      > there and see what you guys think.
                                      > >>
                                      > >
                                      > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                                      > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                                      > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                                      > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                                      > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                                      > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                                      > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                                      > probably in the works before W. became President.
                                      > >
                                      > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                                      > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                                      > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                                      > >
                                      > > Paul
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                                       

                                    • Paul Archer
                                      ... For those of you who don t quite get what s different about this engine, let me attempt an explaination. First, a normal engine uses a four-stroke cycle.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Yesterday, Ariel Thomann wrote:

                                        > Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here
                                        > is their own website: : http://www.scuderigroup.com/
                                        >

                                        For those of you who don't quite get what's different about this engine, let
                                        me attempt an explaination.

                                        First, a normal engine uses a four-stroke cycle.


                                        Piston movement: down up down up
                                        Action happening: intake compression power exhaust

                                        In other words, as the piston moves down, it takes in a fuel/air mixture.
                                        The valves close, and the piston moves up, compressing the air (and fuel).
                                        The piston gets (almost to) the top of the stroke, and the spark plug fires,
                                        igniting the air/fuel mixture, and starting the power stroke. The expanding
                                        gasses push the piston down, providing power. The piston moves back up, and
                                        the exhaust gas is released.

                                        What happens in the Scuderi engine
                                        (http://scuderigroup.com/technology/images/scuderi_piston2.jpg) is that the
                                        air/fuel mixture (or possibly just the air, and the fuel is injected later)
                                        flows from the first piston (on the left) to the second piston (on the
                                        right).
                                        The second piston acts like the piston in a normal engine (performing the
                                        four phases I listed above). The first piston is ganged to the second, so
                                        they move (roughly) in phase.
                                        Every time the second piston moves down (on intake and power), the first
                                        piston does too, filling up with air. Every time the second piston moves up
                                        (on compression and exhaust), the first on does too, pushing air into the
                                        chamber between the pistons.

                                        What this means is that with a normal engine, a piston can take in the
                                        volume of one cylinder every cycle. With the Scuderi engine, the piston (the
                                        power piston on the right, that is) takes in the volume of two cylinders
                                        every cycle.

                                        I don't honestly know if this is really any better than a standard
                                        supercharger, since that's all this really is. (A supercharger uses a
                                        compressor turbine driven directly off the engine to compress incoming air
                                        to get more in the cylinder. A turbocharger, BTW, does the same job, but is
                                        driven from exhaust gas pressure.)

                                        I also question the wisdom of a four-cylinder engine (that according to the
                                        website produces as much power as a six-cylinder engine) that only fires on
                                        two cylinders. The problem here, especially if it does produce as much power
                                        as a six-cylinder engine, is that it means the power cylinder is doing three
                                        times the work (and producing three times the heat) of a cylinder in a
                                        regular car. That points to the potential for heat-related problems.

                                        There is potential here, though. Using a piston to compress the incoming air
                                        is probably cheaper (in terms of mechanical efficiency) than a supercharger.
                                        And it would produce much higher boost. A standard turbocharger (I can't
                                        give you numbers for superchargers, 'cause I don't know as much about them)
                                        produces around 8lbs(per square inch) of boost. Performance modders rarely
                                        jack them up past 12lbs because of reliability issues, and 15lbs (which is a
                                        full atmosphere) of boost is pretty much the max you can run them at without
                                        a high risk of failure.
                                        By doubling the amount of air going into the power cylinder, they're
                                        effectively doubling the atmospheric pressue, which would be like 15lbs
                                        boost from a turbo/super-charger.
                                        Their website mentions being able to fire the spark after TDC (top dead
                                        center), and having a superfast burn. In a normal engine, the spark is fired
                                        before the piston is done compressing the gas, so that it's burning well
                                        by the time the piston is moving down. That's inefficient. So being able to
                                        produce a complete burn after TDC is a win.


                                        Paul
                                      • Henry H Haynes
                                        At what psi does spontaneous combustion become a factor with a gasoline/air mixture? Henry ... For those of you who don t quite get what s different about this
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          At what psi does spontaneous combustion become a factor with a gasoline/air mixture?

                                          Henry

                                          Paul Archer <tigger@...> wrote:
                                          Yesterday, Ariel Thomann wrote:

                                          > Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here
                                          > is their own website: : http://www.scuderig roup.com/
                                          >

                                          For those of you who don't quite get what's different about this engine, let
                                          me attempt an explaination.

                                          First, a normal engine uses a four-stroke cycle.

                                          Piston movement: down up down up
                                          Action happening: intake compression power exhaust

                                          In other words, as the piston moves down, it takes in a fuel/air mixture.
                                          The valves close, and the piston moves up, compressing the air (and fuel).
                                          The piston gets (almost to) the top of the stroke, and the spark plug fires,
                                          igniting the air/fuel mixture, and starting the power stroke. The expanding
                                          gasses push the piston down, providing power. The piston moves back up, and
                                          the exhaust gas is released.

                                          What happens in the Scuderi engine
                                          (http://scuderigroup .com/technology/ images/scuderi_ piston2.jpg) is that the
                                          air/fuel mixture (or possibly just the air, and the fuel is injected later)
                                          flows from the first piston (on the left) to the second piston (on the
                                          right).
                                          The second piston acts like the piston in a normal engine (performing the
                                          four phases I listed above). The first piston is ganged to the second, so
                                          they move (roughly) in phase.
                                          Every time the second piston moves down (on intake and power), the first
                                          piston does too, filling up with air. Every time the second piston moves up
                                          (on compression and exhaust), the first on does too, pushing air into the
                                          chamber between the pistons.

                                          What this means is that with a normal engine, a piston can take in the
                                          volume of one cylinder every cycle. With the Scuderi engine, the piston (the
                                          power piston on the right, that is) takes in the volume of two cylinders
                                          every cycle.

                                          I don't honestly know if this is really any better than a standard
                                          supercharger, since that's all this really is. (A supercharger uses a
                                          compressor turbine driven directly off the engine to compress incoming air
                                          to get more in the cylinder. A turbocharger, BTW, does the same job, but is
                                          driven from exhaust gas pressure.)

                                          I also question the wisdom of a four-cylinder engine (that according to the
                                          website produces as much power as a six-cylinder engine) that only fires on
                                          two cylinders. The problem here, especially if it does produce as much power
                                          as a six-cylinder engine, is that it means the power cylinder is doing three
                                          times the work (and producing three times the heat) of a cylinder in a
                                          regular car. That points to the potential for heat-related problems.

                                          There is potential here, though. Using a piston to compress the incoming air
                                          is probably cheaper (in terms of mechanical efficiency) than a supercharger.
                                          And it would produce much higher boost. A standard turbocharger (I can't
                                          give you numbers for superchargers, 'cause I don't know as much about them)
                                          produces around 8lbs(per square inch) of boost. Performance modders rarely
                                          jack them up past 12lbs because of reliability issues, and 15lbs (which is a
                                          full atmosphere) of boost is pretty much the max you can run them at without
                                          a high risk of failure.
                                          By doubling the amount of air going into the power cylinder, they're
                                          effectively doubling the atmospheric pressue, which would be like 15lbs
                                          boost from a turbo/super- charger.
                                          Their website mentions being able to fire the spark after TDC (top dead
                                          center), and having a superfast burn. In a normal engine, the spark is fired
                                          before the piston is done compressing the gas, so that it's burning well
                                          by the time the piston is moving down. That's inefficient. So being able to
                                          produce a complete burn after TDC is a win.

                                          Paul

                                        • Paul Archer
                                          Good question. It s one I don t know the answer to, and part of the reason why I m unsure about the promise of this new engine design. ... [snip]
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
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                                            Good question. It's one I don't know the answer to, and part of the reason
                                            why I'm unsure about the promise of this new engine design.

                                            8:35am, Henry H Haynes wrote:

                                            > At what psi does spontaneous combustion become a factor with a gasoline/air mixture?
                                            >
                                            > Henry
                                            >
                                            > Paul Archer <tigger@...> wrote: Yesterday, Ariel Thomann wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here
                                            > > is their own website: : http://www.scuderigroup.com/
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > For those of you who don't quite get what's different about this engine, let
                                            > me attempt an explaination.
                                            [snip]
                                          • Robert Johnston
                                            Depends on the temperature, of course. At atmospheric pressure, the autoignition temperature (AIT) defines the point at which spontaneous ignition occurs.
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
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                                              Depends on the temperature, of course.  At atmospheric pressure, the autoignition temperature (AIT) defines the point at which spontaneous ignition occurs.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoignition_temperature reports 275°C for gasoline (in air).  Normally, AIT is measured at atmospheric pressure. 

                                               

                                              There is a brief discussion of an apparatus to measure the effect of pressure on the AIT found at http://www.ptb.de/de/org/3/34/341/goedde.htm.  Basically, as pressure increases, the AIT decreases, but there is a limit to this effect due since increased pressure also shifts the liquid-vapor equilibrium towards the liquid phase.

                                               

                                              The Semenov Equation giving the effect of pressure on AIT is shown on p. 4 of this article, with a graph:  http://www.me.berkeley.edu/ME140/Handout-1.pdf

                                               

                                              There is a lot more in the literature on this, of course, but those are a few free references that showed up on Google.  As the article points out, diesel engines are designed to run in that fashion (no spark); that’s why they are so much fun to start in an Alaskan winter!

                                               

                                              Robert Johnston

                                               


                                              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Paul Archer
                                              Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:17 PM
                                              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                                               

                                              Good question. It's one I don't know the answer to, and part of the reason
                                              why I'm unsure about the promise of this new engine design.

                                              8:35am, Henry H Haynes wrote:

                                              > At what psi does spontaneous combustion become a factor with a
                                              gasoline/air mixture?
                                              >
                                              > Henry
                                              >
                                              > Paul Archer <tigger@...>
                                              wrote: Yesterday, Ariel Thomann wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this
                                              Scuderi engine, here
                                              > > is their own website: : http://www.scuderig roup.com/
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > For those of you who don't quite get what's different about this engine,
                                              let
                                              > me attempt an explaination.
                                              [snip]

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