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RE: [HoustonPeakOil] Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

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  • Israel Palacios
    There is an unofficial electronic archive for KPFT or at least there used to be. It can be found by googling KPFT. _____ From: hreg@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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      There is an unofficial electronic archive for KPFT or at least there used to be.  It can be found by googling KPFT.

       


      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Randy Scott
      Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:11 PM
      To: Ariel Thomann; hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: bsyed@...; houstonpeakoil@...
      Subject: Re: [HoustonPeakOil] Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

       

      I didn't hear the program, but maybe you're thinking of the Sterling engine?

      Randy

      --- Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@pol. net> wrote:

      > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio
      that I can't find
      > now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write
      down the key
      > family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by
      someone from
      > a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or
      gasoline,
      > compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and
      cheaper than
      > anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players.
      Did anybody
      > else catch that program?
      >
      > Ariel
      >

      Petition to challenge Dwayne Bohac to give back dirty money
      http://www.thepetit ionsite.com/ takeaction/ 382026427

      Mark McDavid for Congress - Tx Dist 138
      http://www.votemcda vid.com/

      http://randyscott. fortunecity. com/blog/

    • blpasemann
      Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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        Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I
        feel there is an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep
        losing money and marketshare to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles,
        while Honda and Toyota and kicking their butt with hybrids and fuel
        economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil companies, government
        and car makers are all in this together, but while oil companies are
        making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
        not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some
        reasons why this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of
        my life, but I will NOT by a Ford again or an American car. I really
        want to a prius or what I will probably do is build an electric car or
        biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out there and see what you guys think.

        ---------------------------------------------------------------

        Toyota becomes No. 2 automaker
        U.S. sales for Ford, Chrysler and GM drop steeply in July, while
        Japanese company boasts a 16.2 percent increase.
        August 2 2006: 9:19 AM EDT

        DETROIT (Reuters) -- U.S. auto sales slid 17 percent in July as
        Americans shunned trucks and opted for more fuel-efficient cars,
        catapulting Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. past Ford Motor Co. into the
        No. 2 spot for the first time.

        Detroit-based automakers suffered double-digit declines in sales from
        the peak of last summer's incentive-driven boom, with DaimlerChrysler
        AG's (Charts) Chrysler Group and Ford hardest-hit in a market hurt by
        high interest rates and gas prices.
        parked_autos_cars2.03.jpg
        Photo Gallery launchSee more photos
        Background on the story
        Ford reportedly plans more job cuts
        Automaker's acceleration of cost savings could mean loss of additional
        posts, elimination of more benefits, newspaper says. (more)
        Plug-in hybrids: Not ready for primetime
        Making an affordable hybrid car that can be charged from an outlet
        isn't as easy as just adding cord. (more)
        SUVs are out. So what's hot now? SUVs.
        Crossovers like the Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX330 are replacing
        traditional truck-based SUVs in customers' hearts. (more)

        Chrysler Group lost 37 percent and Ford (Charts) 34 percent, but
        Toyota (Charts) jumped an industry-leading 16 percent, driven by a 25
        percent surge for passenger cars such as the Corolla.

        Sales for Japan's Honda Motor Co. (Charts) gained 10 percent and South
        Korea's Hyundai Motor Co. added 6 percent, putting all three Asian
        automakers on track for a larger share of a softening U.S. market for
        new vehicles.

        General Motors Corp. (Charts), the No. 1 automaker worldwide, posted a
        19.5 percent drop in U.S. sales, in line with expectations, given the
        tough year-earlier comparison.

        Autodata Corp. reported that overall sales of U.S. light vehicles came
        in at a seasonally adjusted annualized rate of 17.24 million units in
        July, down from a near-record high of 20.72 million a year earlier
        when the traditional Big Three offered employee discounts to all buyers.

        Chrysler Group, which has been working to sell off inventory ahead of
        the launch of key new models, was the only automaker to bring back
        employee pricing this July, a sequel that fizzled with U.S. consumers.

        DaimlerChrysler's sales dropped 34 percent in July, a
        steeper-than-expected drop that analysts said underscored Chrysler's
        reliance on rolling out new hit products rather than competing on price.

        Chrysler responded to its weak July sales numbers by extending its
        package of discounts, including employee-level pricing and
        zero-percent financing, until the end of August.

        Ford's sales were weighed down by a 44 percent slide in its profitable
        truck lineup, an area of the market the automaker has long dominated.

        "Ford and Chrysler were just simply disappointing," said Jesse Toprak,
        an analyst at Edmunds.com who had forecast higher sales. "It's a quite
        dramatic decline."

        Said George Magliano, analyst at Global Insight: "I think for Chrysler
        it's very short-term and shows how product sensitive they are. I'm
        more worried about Ford. Ford is more structural, I think."

        GM, which set off last summer's price-war, has steered clear of a
        repeat of the same kind of sweeping rebates this year.

        "I would view our results as very solid," said GM sales analyst Paul
        Ballew. "In fact, better than what we expected at the beginning of the
        month, and better than we thought even at midmonth."
        Hangover from the boom

        Last year's summer price war boosted the number of cars sold but
        sacrificed profitability for both the U.S. automakers and their
        dealers. The incentives also made monthly shifts in auto sales highly
        volatile.

        "What we aren't going to have in (2006) was this roller-coaster that
        we were on in (2005)," Ford sales analyst George Pipas said. "We're
        aren't going to see the peaks and hopefully we won't see the valley."

        For the year to date, SUV sales are down 19 percent, while pickup
        truck sales have dropped 16 percent, said Paul Taylor, chief economist
        with the National Automobile Dealers Association.

        That puts pressure on the traditional Big Three in coming months to
        increase incentives and rely more heavily on lower-margin sales to
        commercial fleet operators, which include car rental companies, he said.

        Reflecting their fall from favor with consumers, large trucks and SUVs
        carried higher-than-average discounts of more than $5,200 on average
        in July, according to Edmunds.com.

        Despite the drop in July sales, GM, Ford and Chrysler all reported
        progress in reducing vehicle inventories, in part because of
        production cutbacks.

        GM had 930,000 vehicles at the end of July, down 21 percent from the
        previous month, while Ford reduced its inventory by nearly 15 percent
        to 677,000 vehicles. Chrysler's inventory declined 14 percent to
        560,210 vehicles.

        The defection from SUVs also hurt some luxury car manufacturers in
        July. Porsche AG suffered a 23 percent drop in demand for its Cayenne
        model, even as its overall sales rose 12 percent on the back of strong
        demand for the Cayman coupe.

        By contrast, new compact and sub-compact models have proved popular.
        Nissan Motor Co. said it sold 2,856 of the new Versa compacts in July,
        double the company's internal forecast.

        Nissan, which is considering a tie-up that would extend its current
        alliance with Renault SA to include GM, posted a drop in overall sales
        of 16 percent, outperforming the market by a slight margin.
      • Paul Archer
        ... I don t know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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          2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:

          > Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I
          > feel there is an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep
          > losing money and marketshare to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles,
          > while Honda and Toyota and kicking their butt with hybrids and fuel
          > economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil companies, government
          > and car makers are all in this together, but while oil companies are
          > making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
          > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some
          > reasons why this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of
          > my life, but I will NOT by a Ford again or an American car. I really
          > want to a prius or what I will probably do is build an electric car or
          > biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out there and see what you guys think.
          >

          I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are
          seeing is due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through.
          It typically takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement
          something new. I don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years,
          depending on how much is new vs how much has already been designed.
          (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body on an existing chassis.)
          Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast available with a
          300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was probably in
          the works before W. became President.

          Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably
          in a much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars
          and take advantage of today's higher gas prices.

          Paul
        • Ariel Thomann
          Save your pennies and put your name down; the plug-ins (Prius and others) are around the corner. Ariel - We are all Human beings here together. We have to
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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            Save your pennies and put your name down; the plug-ins (Prius and others) are around the
            corner.

            Ariel
            - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
            there is NO ONE who will help.
            - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
            ------------------------------------

            > Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is an
            > underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare to keep
            > promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking their butt with
            > hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil companies, government
            > and car makers are all in this together, but while oil companies are making record
            > profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may not recover. I want to know
            > what other think and if they have some reasons why this is happening. I personally
            > have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT by a Ford again or an American car.
            > I really want to a prius or what I will probably do is build an electric car or
            > biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out there and see what you guys think.
            >
            > ---------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            > Toyota becomes No. 2 automaker
            > U.S. sales for Ford, Chrysler and GM drop steeply in July, while
            > Japanese company boasts a 16.2 percent increase.
            > August 2 2006: 9:19 AM EDT
            >
            > DETROIT (Reuters) -- U.S. auto sales slid 17 percent in July as
            > Americans shunned trucks and opted for more fuel-efficient cars,
            > catapulting Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. past Ford Motor Co. into the No. 2 spot for the
            > first time.
            >
            > Detroit-based automakers suffered double-digit declines in sales from the peak of last
            > summer's incentive-driven boom, with DaimlerChrysler AG's (Charts) Chrysler Group and
            > Ford hardest-hit in a market hurt by high interest rates and gas prices.
            > parked_autos_cars2.03.jpg
            > Photo Gallery launchSee more photos
            > Background on the story
            > Ford reportedly plans more job cuts
            > Automaker's acceleration of cost savings could mean loss of additional posts,
            > elimination of more benefits, newspaper says. (more)
            > Plug-in hybrids: Not ready for primetime
            > Making an affordable hybrid car that can be charged from an outlet isn't as easy as
            > just adding cord. (more)
            > SUVs are out. So what's hot now? SUVs.
            > Crossovers like the Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX330 are replacing traditional
            > truck-based SUVs in customers' hearts. (more)
            >
            > Chrysler Group lost 37 percent and Ford (Charts) 34 percent, but
            > Toyota (Charts) jumped an industry-leading 16 percent, driven by a 25 percent surge
            > for passenger cars such as the Corolla.
            >
            > Sales for Japan's Honda Motor Co. (Charts) gained 10 percent and South Korea's Hyundai
            > Motor Co. added 6 percent, putting all three Asian automakers on track for a larger
            > share of a softening U.S. market for new vehicles.
            >
            > General Motors Corp. (Charts), the No. 1 automaker worldwide, posted a 19.5 percent
            > drop in U.S. sales, in line with expectations, given the tough year-earlier
            > comparison.
            >
            > Autodata Corp. reported that overall sales of U.S. light vehicles came in at a
            > seasonally adjusted annualized rate of 17.24 million units in July, down from a
            > near-record high of 20.72 million a year earlier when the traditional Big Three
            > offered employee discounts to all buyers.
            >
            > Chrysler Group, which has been working to sell off inventory ahead of the launch of
            > key new models, was the only automaker to bring back employee pricing this July, a
            > sequel that fizzled with U.S. consumers.
            >
            > DaimlerChrysler's sales dropped 34 percent in July, a
            > steeper-than-expected drop that analysts said underscored Chrysler's reliance on
            > rolling out new hit products rather than competing on price.
            >
            > Chrysler responded to its weak July sales numbers by extending its package of
            > discounts, including employee-level pricing and
            > zero-percent financing, until the end of August.
            >
            > Ford's sales were weighed down by a 44 percent slide in its profitable truck lineup,
            > an area of the market the automaker has long dominated.
            >
            > "Ford and Chrysler were just simply disappointing," said Jesse Toprak, an analyst at
            > Edmunds.com who had forecast higher sales. "It's a quite dramatic decline."
            >
            > Said George Magliano, analyst at Global Insight: "I think for Chrysler it's very
            > short-term and shows how product sensitive they are. I'm more worried about Ford. Ford
            > is more structural, I think."
            >
            > GM, which set off last summer's price-war, has steered clear of a
            > repeat of the same kind of sweeping rebates this year.
            >
            > "I would view our results as very solid," said GM sales analyst Paul Ballew. "In fact,
            > better than what we expected at the beginning of the month, and better than we thought
            > even at midmonth."
            > Hangover from the boom
            >
            > Last year's summer price war boosted the number of cars sold but
            > sacrificed profitability for both the U.S. automakers and their
            > dealers. The incentives also made monthly shifts in auto sales highly volatile.
            >
            > "What we aren't going to have in (2006) was this roller-coaster that we were on in
            > (2005)," Ford sales analyst George Pipas said. "We're aren't going to see the peaks
            > and hopefully we won't see the valley."
            >
            > For the year to date, SUV sales are down 19 percent, while pickup
            > truck sales have dropped 16 percent, said Paul Taylor, chief economist with the
            > National Automobile Dealers Association.
            >
            > That puts pressure on the traditional Big Three in coming months to increase
            > incentives and rely more heavily on lower-margin sales to commercial fleet operators,
            > which include car rental companies, he said.
            >
            > Reflecting their fall from favor with consumers, large trucks and SUVs carried
            > higher-than-average discounts of more than $5,200 on average in July, according to
            > Edmunds.com.
            >
            > Despite the drop in July sales, GM, Ford and Chrysler all reported progress in
            > reducing vehicle inventories, in part because of
            > production cutbacks.
            >
            > GM had 930,000 vehicles at the end of July, down 21 percent from the previous month,
            > while Ford reduced its inventory by nearly 15 percent to 677,000 vehicles. Chrysler's
            > inventory declined 14 percent to
            > 560,210 vehicles.
            >
            > The defection from SUVs also hurt some luxury car manufacturers in July. Porsche AG
            > suffered a 23 percent drop in demand for its Cayenne model, even as its overall sales
            > rose 12 percent on the back of strong demand for the Cayman coupe.
            >
            > By contrast, new compact and sub-compact models have proved popular. Nissan Motor Co.
            > said it sold 2,856 of the new Versa compacts in July, double the company's internal
            > forecast.
            >
            > Nissan, which is considering a tie-up that would extend its current alliance with
            > Renault SA to include GM, posted a drop in overall sales of 16 percent, outperforming
            > the market by a slight margin.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Ariel Thomann
            Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months... Ariel - We are
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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              Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and mass
              produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...

              Ariel
              - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
              there is NO ONE who will help.
              - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
              ------------------------------------

              > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
              >
              >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is an
              >> underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare to
              >> keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking their butt
              >> with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil companies,
              >> government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil companies are
              >> making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may not recover. I
              >> want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why this is happening.
              >> I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT by a Ford again or an
              >> American car. I really want to a prius or what I will probably do is build an
              >> electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out there and see what you guys
              >> think.
              >>
              >
              > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is due
              > to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically takes
              > several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I don't know
              > how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new vs how much
              > has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body on an existing
              > chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast available with a
              > 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was probably in the
              > works before W. became President.
              >
              > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a much
              > better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take advantage
              > of today's higher gas prices.
              >
              > Paul
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Bashir Syed
              It s the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions, which the corporations don t have to worry, and money saved goes to the top
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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                It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions, which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                 
                Bashir A. Syed 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and mass
                produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...

                Ariel
                - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                there is NO ONE who will help.
                - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                ------------ --------- --------- ------

                > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                >
                >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is an
                >> underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare to
                >> keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking their butt
                >> with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil companies,
                >> government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil companies are
                >> making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may not recover. I
                >> want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why this is happening.
                >> I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT by a Ford again or an
                >> American car. I really want to a prius or what I will probably do is build an
                >> electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out there and see what you guys
                >> think.
                >>
                >
                > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is due
                > to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically takes
                > several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I don't know
                > how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new vs how much
                > has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body on an existing
                > chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast available with a
                > 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was probably in the
                > works before W. became President.
                >
                > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a much
                > better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take advantage
                > of today's higher gas prices.
                >
                > Paul
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

              • blpasemann
                I have been reading a lot and I read about the car companies not wanting to promote hybrids or electric cars. Here s an article from the energy bulleting
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
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                  I have been reading a lot and I read about the car companies not
                  wanting to promote hybrids or electric cars. Here's an article from
                  the energy bulleting website. This kind of talk from GM will never
                  get me to buy one of their products. I read similar things from ford,
                  like when they are scaling back there hybrid production quantities
                  from earlier statements. I just don't think they want to do it and
                  are being paid by big oil.

                  GM article:
                  -------------------------------------------------------
                  Lutz: GM building hybrids for good press
                  LeftLane News
                  General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week
                  that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve
                  its public image. "Hybrids are technologically of doubtful benefit,
                  and expensive, but necessary from a political and public relations
                  point of view," Lutz told Just-Auto. "Toyota has said, economically,
                  hybrids make no sense. The reduction in fuel [consumption] does not
                  pay for the technological content and cost of the vehicle so therefore
                  economically it remains fairly nonsensical, so that's the left-brain
                  analytical argument."

                  "The right brain is it's the popular thing to do, many people believe
                  that if we all drove hybrids the world would suddenly get cooler again
                  and then it's the patriotic thing to do because if you drive a hybrid
                  you will no longer be funding the Arab terrorists, and so forth."

                  "So, with all those beliefs out there, you have to do a hybrid for
                  public policy reasons."

                  "I don't care how much money you get out but when you've got two
                  drivetrains, the sophisticated electronics and a big lithium-ion
                  battery, you've got cost."

                  Lutz says diesels are also problematic. "The modern diesel is becoming
                  more and more expensive as we have to have to gear up to meet Euro 5,
                  which is very difficult."

                  "Let's not forget, a diesel engine is always going to be more
                  expensive than a conventional petrol engine, that's the laws of physics."

                  In March, Lutz said GM is most enthusiastic about ethanol. "We think
                  running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the
                  world," he said.
                  (21 July 2006)
                  >
                  > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are
                  > seeing is due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go
                  through.
                  > It typically takes several years for a manufacturer to design and
                  implement
                  > something new. I don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years,
                  > depending on how much is new vs how much has already been designed.
                  > (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body on an existing chassis.)
                  > Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast available
                  with a
                  > 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                  probably in
                  > the works before W. became President.
                  >
                  > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
                  probably
                  > in a much better position from the start to offer more
                  fuel-efficient cars
                  > and take advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                  >
                  > Paul
                  >
                • Roy Holder
                  ... up, and mass ... P51 tok 13 months to flying prototype(sep39 to may40), in 1940, but did not enter production untill around mid 41. The Mustang was built
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    At 12:54 PM 8/2/2006 -0500, you wrote:
                    >Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool
                    up, and mass
                    >produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...

                    P51 tok 13 months to flying prototype(sep39 to may40), in 1940, but did not
                    enter production untill around mid 41.
                    'The Mustang was built for the highest performance with less thought for
                    longevity'
                    Not the kind of product to make payments on for 5 years.

                    P-47 took 11 months to prototype, and another 10 to set up production.

                    both models did not inter combat untill late 43. In reality is was more
                    like years to get a new model out.


                    Car manufactures must go thru the federal government and NTSB safety
                    programs to get certified before they can sell any vehicle with a speed
                    over 45 mph.

                    At national energy conferences, Ive heard quotes of years of paperwork and
                    over 10 mil $ per vehicle (+5 or so crash test units) to get safety
                    certified for highway speeds. That is part of the reason electrics are
                    slowly appearing as NEV's, and new EV manufacturers are nonexistnat.




                    >
                    >Ariel
                    >- We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
                    since otherwise
                    >there is NO ONE who will help.
                    >- All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                    generations.
                    >------------------------------------
                    >
                    >> 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel
                    there is an
                    >>> underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and
                    marketshare to
                    >>> keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and
                    kicking their butt
                    >>> with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                    companies,
                    >>> government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                    companies are
                    >>> making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may not
                    recover. I
                    >>> want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why this is
                    happening.
                    >>> I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT by a
                    Ford again or an
                    >>> American car. I really want to a prius or what I will probably do is
                    build an
                    >>> electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out there and see
                    what you guys
                    >>> think.
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >> I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are
                    seeing is due
                    >> to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It
                    typically takes
                    >> several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new.
                    I don't know
                    >> how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                    vs how much
                    >> has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                    on an existing
                    >> chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                    available with a
                    >> 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                    probably in the
                    >> works before W. became President.
                    >>
                    >> Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
                    probably in a much
                    >> better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and
                    take advantage
                    >> of today's higher gas prices.
                    >>
                    >> Paul
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Ariel Thomann
                    I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can t find now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                      now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                      family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                      a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                      compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                      anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                      else catch that program?

                      Ariel
                      - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                      there is NO ONE who will help.
                      - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                      ------------------------------------

                      > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                      > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                      > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                      > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                      > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                      > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                      >
                      > Bashir A. Syed
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Ariel Thomann
                      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                      > Cc: tigger@...
                      > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                      >
                      >
                      > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                      > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                      >
                      > Ariel
                      ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                      > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                      > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                      > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                      > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                      > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                      > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                      > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                      > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                      > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                      > there and see what you guys think.
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                      > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                      > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                      > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                      > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                      > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                      > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                      > probably in the works before W. became President.
                      > >
                      > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                      > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                      > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                      > >
                      > > Paul
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Randy Scott
                      I didn t hear the program, but maybe you re thinking of the Sterling engine? Randy ... Petition to challenge Dwayne Bohac to give back dirty money
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I didn't hear the program, but maybe you're thinking of the Sterling engine?

                        Randy



                        --- Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@...> wrote:

                        > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                        > now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                        > family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                        > a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                        > compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                        > anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                        > else catch that program?
                        >
                        > Ariel
                        >

                        Petition to challenge Dwayne Bohac to give back dirty money
                        http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/382026427

                        Mark McDavid for Congress - Tx Dist 138
                        http://www.votemcdavid.com/

                        http://randyscott.fortunecity.com/blog/
                      • Julie Hendricks
                        I heard part of an extensive piece about Nikola Tesla, a very prolific inventor of the 19th century, yesterday on KPFT around noon time. I did a quick web
                        Message 11 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment

                          I heard part of an extensive piece about Nikola Tesla, a very prolific inventor of the 19th century, yesterday on KPFT around noon time.  I did a quick web search and found the following about an engine design of his.  Maybe this is what you are looking for:

                           

                          http://www.tfcbooks.com/articles/tdt7.htm

                           

                          Julie Hendricks, AIA LEED AP

                          Kirksey
                          6909 Portwest Drive
                          Houston Texas 77024
                          v 713 426 7566
                          f 713 726 7066

                          julieh@...
                          www.kirksey.com

                           


                          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ariel Thomann
                          Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:59 PM
                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                          Cc: bsyed@...; houstonpeakoil@...
                          Subject: Re: [hreg]

                           

                          I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                          now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                          family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                          a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                          compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                          anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                          else catch that program?

                          Ariel
                          - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                          there is NO ONE who will help.
                          - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                          ------------ --------- --------- ------

                          > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and
                          pensions,
                          > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the
                          top of the
                          > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED,
                          which has
                          > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There
                          are a lot of
                          > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more
                          reliable, but it
                          > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                          >
                          > Bashir A. Syed
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Ariel Thomann
                          > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                          > Cc: tigger@...
                          > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                          >
                          >
                          > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool
                          up, and
                          > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                          >
                          > Ariel
                          ------------ --------- --------- ------
                          >
                          > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> Interesting article today, that
                          w:st="on">Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                          > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and
                          marketshare
                          > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and
                          w:st="on">Toyota and kicking
                          > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the
                          oil
                          > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while
                          oil
                          > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money
                          and may
                          > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons
                          why
                          > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I
                          will NOT
                          > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I
                          will
                          > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this
                          out
                          > there and see what you guys think.
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we)
                          are seeing is
                          > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It
                          typically
                          > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something
                          new. I
                          > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how
                          much is new
                          > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a
                          new body
                          > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling
                          beast
                          > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago.
                          It was
                          > probably in the works before W. became President.
                          > >
                          > > Honda and Toyota
                          have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                          > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and
                          take
                          > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                          > >
                          > > Paul
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                        • Jim & Janet
                          You heard it on Marketplace on Tuesday. http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html Marketplace is an excellent program for Public
                          Message 12 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business news.
                            Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer attention to "business" news.
                            Jim Duncan
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                            Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                            I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                            now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                            family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                            a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                            compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                            anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                            else catch that program?

                            Ariel
                            - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                            there is NO ONE who will help.
                            - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                            ------------ --------- --------- ------

                            > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                            > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                            > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                            > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                            > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                            > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                            >
                            > Bashir A. Syed
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Ariel Thomann
                            > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                            > Cc: tigger@...
                            > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                            >
                            >
                            > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                            > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                            >
                            > Ariel
                            ------------ --------- --------- ------
                            >
                            > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                            > >
                            > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                            > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                            > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                            > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                            > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                            > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                            > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                            > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                            > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                            > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                            > there and see what you guys think.
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                            > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                            > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                            > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                            > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                            > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                            > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                            > probably in the works before W. became President.
                            > >
                            > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                            > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                            > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                            > >
                            > > Paul
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                          • Sean Kaylor
                            The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi. About US auto makers. Isn t it ironic that CAFE
                            Message 13 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment

                              The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi.

                              About US auto makers. Isn't it ironic that CAFE standards haven't been raised since the mid-1980's? The US is the only developed nation to actually have an average reduction in automobile fuel efficiency in the past ten years. Why aren't CAFE standards raised? While I would shy away from pointing fingers directly- there is a lot of blame centered around the United Auto Workers and the mid-west politicians. The UAW claimes that raising CAFE standards will jepordize passenger safety because to obtain a more fuel efficient vehicle major weight reductions will have to take place. Also, the UAW and domestic car manufacturing firms fear that raising fuel efficiency standards might give foreign competitors a strategic advantage because, just as was mentioned earlier in this post, Hond and Toyota have been successfully designing, manufacturing, and selling more efficient vehicles for several decades now.

                              It is rather ironic that Ford and GM are losing money hand over fist not simply because they are losing market share in the compact/sub-compact categories, but mainly because their high profit margin SUV and truck categories are having to compete against Toyota and Honda SUV and truck models. Looks like domestic auto production is declining on all fronts which is unfortunate.

                              Sean 

                               


                              From: "Jim & Janet" <jhd1@...>
                              Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                              To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                              Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:36:05 -0500

                              Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business news.
                              Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer attention to "business" news.
                              Jim Duncan
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                              Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                              I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                              now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                              family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                              a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                              compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                              anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                              else catch that program?

                              Ariel
                              - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                              there is NO ONE who will help.
                              - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                              ------------ --------- --------- ------

                              > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                              > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                              > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                              > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                              > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                              > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                              >
                              > Bashir A. Syed
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Ariel Thomann
                              > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                              > Cc: tigger@...
                              > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                              >
                              >
                              > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                              > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                              >
                              > Ariel
                              ------------ --------- --------- ------
                              >
                              > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                              > >
                              > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                              > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                              > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                              > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                              > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                              > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                              > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                              > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                              > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                              > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                              > there and see what you guys think.
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                              > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                              > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                              > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                              > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                              > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                              > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                              > probably in the works before W. became President.
                              > >
                              > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                              > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                              > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                              > >
                              > > Paul
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links


                            • Laura
                              I ve cancelled my subscription to this membership, yet I still get emails. Can you please take me off the list. Thanks. Laura La Rue ... From:
                              Message 14 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment

                                I’ve cancelled my subscription to this membership, yet I still get emails. Can you please take me off the list.


                                Thanks.

                                 

                                Laura La Rue

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Kaylor
                                Sent:
                                Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:11 PM
                                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                                 

                                The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi.

                                About US auto makers. Isn't it ironic that CAFE standards haven't been raised since the mid-1980's? The US is the only developed nation to actually have an average reduction in automobile fuel efficiency in the past ten years. Why aren't CAFE standards raised? While I would shy away from pointing fingers directly- there is a lot of blame centered around the United Auto Workers and the mid-west politicians. The UAW claimes that raising CAFE standards will jepordize passenger safety because to obtain a more fuel efficient vehicle major weight reductions will have to take place. Also, the UAW and domestic car manufacturing firms fear that raising fuel efficiency standards might give foreign competitors a strategic advantage because, just as was mentioned earlier in this post, Hond and Toyota have been successfully designing, manufacturing, and selling more efficient vehicles for several decades now.

                                It is rather ironic that Ford and GM are losing money hand over fist not simply because they are losing market share in the compact/sub- compact categories, but mainly because their high profit margin SUV and truck categories are having to compete against Toyota and Honda SUV and truck models. Looks like domestic auto production is declining on all fronts which is unfortunate.

                                Sean 

                                 


                                From: "Jim & Janet" <jhd1@earthlink. net>
                                Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                To: <hreg@yahoogroups. com>
                                Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:36:05 -0500

                                Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business news.

                                Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer attention to "business" news.

                                Jim Duncan

                                 

                                ----- Original Message -----

                                Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM

                                Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                                 

                                I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                                now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                                family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                                a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                                compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                                anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                                else catch that program?

                                Ariel
                                - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                                there is NO ONE who will help.
                                - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                                ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                                > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                                > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                                > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                                > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                                > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                                >
                                > Bashir A. Syed
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Ariel Thomann
                                > To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
                                > Cc: tigger@...
                                > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                >
                                >
                                > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                                > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                                >
                                > Ariel
                                ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                >
                                > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                                > >
                                > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                                > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                                > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                                > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                                > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                                > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                                > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                                > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                                > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                                > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                                > there and see what you guys think.
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                                > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                                > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                                > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                                > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                                > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                                > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                                > probably in the works before W. became President.
                                > >
                                > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                                > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                                > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                                > >
                                > > Paul
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                                 

                              • blpasemann
                                Laura, at the very least you should be able to go into your yahoo/group settings and disable email messages from this group. At least the emails will stop.
                                Message 15 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Laura,
                                  at the very least you should be able to go into your yahoo/group
                                  settings and disable email messages from this group. At least the
                                  emails will stop.

                                  --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Laura" <laura@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I've cancelled my subscription to this membership, yet I still get
                                  > emails. Can you please take me off the list.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Thanks.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Laura La Rue
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                  > Sean Kaylor
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:11 PM
                                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine
                                  > designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi.
                                  >
                                  > About US auto makers. Isn't it ironic that CAFE standards haven't been
                                  > raised since the mid-1980's? The US is the only developed nation to
                                  > actually have an average reduction in automobile fuel efficiency in the
                                  > past ten years. Why aren't CAFE standards raised? While I would shy away
                                  > from pointing fingers directly- there is a lot of blame centered around
                                  > the United Auto Workers and the mid-west politicians. The UAW claimes
                                  > that raising CAFE standards will jepordize passenger safety because to
                                  > obtain a more fuel efficient vehicle major weight reductions will have
                                  > to take place. Also, the UAW and domestic car manufacturing firms fear
                                  > that raising fuel efficiency standards might give foreign competitors a
                                  > strategic advantage because, just as was mentioned earlier in this post,
                                  > Hond and Toyota have been successfully designing, manufacturing, and
                                  > selling more efficient vehicles for several decades now.
                                  >
                                  > It is rather ironic that Ford and GM are losing money hand over fist not
                                  > simply because they are losing market share in the compact/sub-compact
                                  > categories, but mainly because their high profit margin SUV and truck
                                  > categories are having to compete against Toyota and Honda SUV and truck
                                  > models. Looks like domestic auto production is declining on all fronts
                                  > which is unfortunate.
                                  >
                                  > Sean
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: "Jim & Janet" <jhd1@...>
                                  > Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                  > To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                  > Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:36:05 -0500
                                  >
                                  > You heard it on Marketplace on Tuesday. http://marketplace.
                                  > <http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html>
                                  > publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html
                                  >
                                  > Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business
                                  > news.
                                  >
                                  > Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a
                                  > very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or
                                  > world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer
                                  > attention to "business" news.
                                  >
                                  > Jim Duncan
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  >
                                  > From: Ariel Thomann <mailto:ajthomann@...>
                                  >
                                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups. <mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com> com
                                  >
                                  > Cc: bsyed@worldnet. <mailto:bsyed@...> att.net ;
                                  > houstonpeakoil@ <mailto:houstonpeakoil@...>
                                  > lists.riseup.net
                                  >
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                                  >
                                  > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio
                                  > that I can't find
                                  > now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write
                                  > down the key
                                  > family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised
                                  > by someone from
                                  > a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel
                                  > or gasoline,
                                  > compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and
                                  > cheaper than
                                  > anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players.
                                  > Did anybody
                                  > else catch that program?
                                  >
                                  > Ariel
                                  > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another,
                                  > since otherwise
                                  > there is NO ONE who will help.
                                  > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                                  > generations.
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance
                                  > and pensions,
                                  > > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to
                                  > the top of the
                                  > > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of
                                  > GREED, which has
                                  > > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers.
                                  > There are a lot of
                                  > > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more
                                  > reliable, but it
                                  > > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                                  > >
                                  > > Bashir A. Syed
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: Ariel Thomann
                                  > > To: hreg@yahoogroups. <mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com> com
                                  > > Cc: tigger@...
                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                                  > > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test,
                                  > tool up, and
                                  > > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                                  > >
                                  > > Ariel
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  > >
                                  > > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I
                                  > feel there is
                                  > > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and
                                  > marketshare
                                  > > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and
                                  > kicking
                                  > > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel
                                  > the oil
                                  > > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but
                                  > while oil
                                  > > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of
                                  > money and may
                                  > > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some
                                  > reasons why
                                  > > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but
                                  > I will NOT
                                  > > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I
                                  > will
                                  > > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put
                                  > this out
                                  > > there and see what you guys think.
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we)
                                  > are seeing is
                                  > > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It
                                  > typically
                                  > > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement
                                  > something new. I
                                  > > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how
                                  > much is new
                                  > > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs
                                  > a new body
                                  > > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big,
                                  > gas-guzzling beast
                                  > > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so
                                  > ago. It was
                                  > > probably in the works before W. became President.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
                                  > probably in a
                                  > > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars
                                  > and take
                                  > > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Paul
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                • Roxanne Boyer
                                  Ok, now I know why GM stock is rated junk . Why does Bob Lutz think ethanol is the solution? Several studies and even my own have shown that if all the
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Ok, now I know why GM stock is rated "junk".
                                    Why does Bob Lutz think ethanol is the solution?
                                    Several studies and even my own have shown that if all the available land in the US grew biomass for ethanol, only 10% (modern tech) to 20% (future tech) of our gasoline could be replaced by ethanol. (Only 6% of diesel consumption could be replaced by biodiesel.)  Biomass fuel is hugely inefficient way to convert land into energy.  Lutz has not done his homework.
                                     
                                    I agree that it is difficult to put engine and electric trivetrains into the same car and make it economical.  Most families have two cars; why not have one for long distance (engine) and the other electric for short commutes.  It may not be for everyone, but, I bet there will be a profitable market.  I seems Bob Lutz has no vision for the future; he can only see what is now and thinks it will never change.  How do short sighted people like this get to be Vice Presidents?
                                     
                                     


                                    blpasemann <blpasemann@...> wrote:
                                    I have been reading a lot and I read about the car companies not
                                    wanting to promote hybrids or electric cars. Here's an article from
                                    the energy bulleting website. This kind of talk from GM will never
                                    get me to buy one of their products. I read similar things from ford,
                                    like when they are scaling back there hybrid production quantities
                                    from earlier statements. I just don't think they want to do it and
                                    are being paid by big oil.

                                    GM article:
                                    ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -------
                                    Lutz: GM building hybrids for good press
                                    LeftLane News
                                    General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview this week
                                    that GM doubts the benefits of hybrids, but must build them to improve
                                    its public image. "Hybrids are technologically of doubtful benefit,
                                    and expensive, but necessary from a political and public relations
                                    point of view," Lutz told Just-Auto. "Toyota has said, economically,
                                    hybrids make no sense. The reduction in fuel [consumption] does not
                                    pay for the technological content and cost of the vehicle so therefore
                                    economically it remains fairly nonsensical, so that's the left-brain
                                    analytical argument."

                                    "The right brain is it's the popular thing to do, many people believe
                                    that if we all drove hybrids the world would suddenly get cooler again
                                    and then it's the patriotic thing to do because if you drive a hybrid
                                    you will no longer be funding the Arab terrorists, and so forth."

                                    "So, with all those beliefs out there, you have to do a hybrid for
                                    public policy reasons."

                                    "I don't care how much money you get out but when you've got two
                                    drivetrains, the sophisticated electronics and a big lithium-ion
                                    battery, you've got cost."

                                    Lutz says diesels are also problematic. "The modern diesel is becoming
                                    more and more expensive as we have to have to gear up to meet Euro 5,
                                    which is very difficult."

                                    "Let's not forget, a diesel engine is always going to be more
                                    expensive than a conventional petrol engine, that's the laws of physics."

                                    In March, Lutz said GM is most enthusiastic about ethanol. "We think
                                    running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the
                                    world," he said.
                                    (21 July 2006)
                                    >
                                    > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are
                                    > seeing is due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go
                                    through.
                                    > It typically takes several years for a manufacturer to design and
                                    implement
                                    > something new. I don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years,
                                    > depending on how much is new vs how much has already been designed.
                                    > (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body on an existing chassis.)
                                    > Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast available
                                    with a
                                    > 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                                    probably in
                                    > the works before W. became President.
                                    >
                                    > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
                                    probably
                                    > in a much better position from the start to offer more
                                    fuel-efficient cars
                                    > and take advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                                    >
                                    > Paul
                                    >


                                  • Ariel Thomann
                                    No, thanks. I heard the Tesla thing too. This other was about an American inventor in the mid- to late-20th century. Ariel - We are all Human beings here
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      No, thanks. I heard the Tesla thing too. This other was about an American inventor in
                                      the mid- to late-20th century.

                                      Ariel
                                      - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                                      there is NO ONE who will help.
                                      - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                                      ------------------------------------

                                      > I heard part of an extensive piece about Nikola Tesla, a very prolific inventor of the
                                      > 19th century, yesterday on KPFT around noon time. I did a quick web search and found
                                      > the following about an engine design of his. Maybe this is what you are looking for:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > http://www.tfcbooks.com/articles/tdt7.htm
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Julie Hendricks, AIA LEED AP
                                      >
                                      > Kirksey
                                      > 6909 Portwest Drive
                                      > Houston Texas 77024
                                      > v 713 426 7566
                                      > f 713 726 7066
                                      >
                                      > julieh@...
                                      > www.kirksey.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      >
                                      > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ariel Thomann
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:59 PM
                                      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Cc: bsyed@...; houstonpeakoil@...
                                      > Subject: Re: [hreg]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't
                                      > find
                                      > now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                                      > family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone
                                      > from
                                      > a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                                      > compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                                      > anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                                      > else catch that program?
                                      >
                                      > Ariel
                                      > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                                      > there is NO ONE who will help.
                                      > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      >> It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance
                                      > and pensions,
                                      >> which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to
                                      > the top of the
                                      >> Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of
                                      > GREED, which has
                                      >> desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers.
                                      > There are a lot of
                                      >> neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more
                                      > reliable, but it
                                      >> does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                                      >>
                                      >> Bashir A. Syed
                                      >> ----- Original Message -----
                                      >> From: Ariel Thomann
                                      >> To: hreg@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hreg%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      >> Cc: tigger@... <mailto:tigger%40io.com>
                                      >> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                                      >> Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test,
                                      > tool up, and
                                      >> mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                                      >>
                                      >> Ariel
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >>
                                      >> > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                                      >> >
                                      >> >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I
                                      > feel there is
                                      >> an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and
                                      > marketshare
                                      >> to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and
                                      > kicking
                                      >> their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel
                                      > the oil
                                      >> companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but
                                      > while oil
                                      >> companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of
                                      > money and may
                                      >> not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some
                                      > reasons why
                                      >> this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but
                                      > I will NOT
                                      >> by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I
                                      > will
                                      >> probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put
                                      > this out
                                      >> there and see what you guys think.
                                      >> >>
                                      >> >
                                      >> > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we)
                                      > are seeing is
                                      >> due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It
                                      > typically
                                      >> takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement
                                      > something new. I
                                      >> don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how
                                      > much is new
                                      >> vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs
                                      > a new body
                                      >> on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big,
                                      > gas-guzzling beast
                                      >> available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so
                                      > ago. It was
                                      >> probably in the works before W. became President.
                                      >> >
                                      >> > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were
                                      > probably in a
                                      >> much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars
                                      > and take
                                      >> advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                                      >> >
                                      >> > Paul
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> >
                                      >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Ariel Thomann
                                      Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here is their own website: : http://www.scuderigroup.com/ Ariel - We are all
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Aug 2, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here
                                        is their own website: : http://www.scuderigroup.com/

                                        Ariel
                                        - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                                        there is NO ONE who will help.
                                        - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                                        ------------------------------------

                                        > You heard it on Marketplace on Tuesday.
                                        > http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html Marketplace is an
                                        > excellent program for Public Radio quality business news. Often the much overlooked
                                        > business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not
                                        > make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start
                                        > paying closer attention to "business" news. Jim Duncan
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: Ariel Thomann
                                        > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Cc: bsyed@... ; houstonpeakoil@...
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                                        > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't
                                        > find now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down
                                        > the key family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by
                                        > someone from a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel
                                        > or gasoline, compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and
                                        > cheaper than anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big
                                        > players. Did anybody else catch that program?
                                        >
                                        > Ariel
                                        > - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since
                                        > otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                                        > - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7
                                        > generations. ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and
                                        > pensions, which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the
                                        > top of the Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of
                                        > GREED, which has desensitized them to think about the interests of their
                                        > customers. There are a lot of neat technologies which can be used in todays cars
                                        > to make them more reliable, but it does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the
                                        > APEX.
                                        > >
                                        > > Bashir A. Syed
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: Ariel Thomann
                                        > > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Cc: tigger@...
                                        > > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                                        > > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                                        > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                                        > >
                                        > > Ariel
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        > >
                                        > > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                                        > > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                                        > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking their
                                        > butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                                        > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                                        > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                                        > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                                        > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                                        > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                                        > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                                        > there and see what you guys think.
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing
                                        > is
                                        > > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                                        > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                                        > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                                        > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                                        > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                                        > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                                        > probably in the works before W. became President.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                                        > > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                                        > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Paul
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Garth & Kim Travis
                                        Greetings, Messages of this type do not belong on the list, if you have a problem, contact the list owner off list. Bright Blessings, Kim
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Greetings,
                                          Messages of this type do not belong on the list,  if you have a problem, contact the list owner off list.
                                          Bright Blessings,
                                          Kim


                                          At 04:15 PM 8/2/2006, you wrote:
                                          I’ve cancelled my subscription to this membership, yet I still get emails. Can you please take me off the list.

                                          Thanks.
                                           
                                          Laura La Rue
                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Kaylor
                                          Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:11 PM
                                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                           

                                          The engine you are referring to is called a Scuderi split cycle engine designed by the late Carmelo Scuderi.

                                          About US auto makers. Isn't it ironic that CAFE standards haven't been raised since the mid-1980's? The US is the only developed nation to actually have an average reduction in automobile fuel efficiency in the past ten years. Why aren't CAFE standards raised? While I would shy away from pointing fingers directly- there is a lot of blame centered around the United Auto Workers and the mid-west politicians. The UAW claimes that raising CAFE standards will jepordize passenger safety because to obtain a more fuel efficient vehicle major weight reductions will have to take place. Also, the UAW and domestic car manufacturing firms fear that raising fuel efficiency standards might give foreign competitors a strategic advantage because, just as was mentioned earlier in this post, Hond and Toyota have been successfully designing, manufacturing, and selling more efficient vehicles for several decades now.

                                          It is rather ironic that Ford and GM are losing money hand over fist not simply because they are losing market share in the compact/sub-compact categories, but mainly because their high profit margin SUV and truck categories are having to compete against Toyota and Honda SUV and truck models. Looks like domestic auto production is declining on all fronts which is unfortunate.

                                          Sean

                                           

                                          From: "Jim & Janet" <jhd1@...>
                                          Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                          To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                          Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:36:05 -0500
                                          You heard it on Marketplace on Tuesday. http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/08/01/PM200608015.html
                                          Marketplace is an excellent program for Public Radio quality business news.
                                          Often the much overlooked business section of your local mewspaper is a very good source of news that does not make it to the local, state or world sections. Let me suggest that everyone start paying closer attention to "business" news.
                                          Jim Duncan
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Ariel Thomann
                                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                          Cc: bsyed@... ; houstonpeakoil@...
                                          Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 2:58 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                           

                                          I think it was yesterday afternoon that I heard something on the radio that I can't find
                                          now in the archives of KPFT or KUHF. I was driving, and failed to write down the key
                                          family surname. It was a lengthy discussion of a type of engine devised by someone from
                                          a long family line of tinkerers. I understood it could be either diesel or gasoline,
                                          compatible with hybrid systems, and supposedly far more efficient and cheaper than
                                          anything out there today. But, of course, suppressed by the big players. Did anybody
                                          else catch that program?

                                          Ariel
                                          - We are all Human beings here together. We have to help one another, since otherwise
                                          there is NO ONE who will help.
                                          - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic energy policy. Think ahead 7 generations.
                                          ------------------------------------

                                          > It's the outsourcing to get rid of unions, benefits, health insurance and pensions,
                                          > which the corporations don't have to worry, and money saved goes to the top of the
                                          > Pyramid's exorbitant salaries and perks. They got the bad taste of GREED, which has
                                          > desensitized them to think about the interests of their customers. There are a lot of
                                          > neat technologies which can be used in todays cars to make them more reliable, but it
                                          > does suit the interest of the TOP guys at the APEX.
                                          >
                                          > Bashir A. Syed
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: Ariel Thomann
                                          > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Cc: tigger@...
                                          > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 12:54 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Just think, during WW-II the aircraft companies could design, test, tool up, and
                                          > mass produce fighter planes sometimes in a matter of months...
                                          >
                                          > Ariel
                                          ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > > 2:40pm, blpasemann wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >> Interesting article today, that Toyota is now the #2 automaker. I feel there is
                                          > an underlying reason car dealers are willing to keep losing money and marketshare
                                          > to keep promoting gas gusseling vehicles, while Honda and Toyota and kicking
                                          > their butt with hybrids and fuel economy. Don't they see this?? I feel the oil
                                          > companies, government and car makers are all in this together, but while oil
                                          > companies are making record profits, car dealers are losing lots of money and may
                                          > not recover. I want to know what other think and if they have some reasons why
                                          > this is happening. I personally have driven fords most of my life, but I will NOT
                                          > by a Ford again or an American car. I really want to a prius or what I will
                                          > probably do is build an electric car or biodiesel. Just wanted to put this out
                                          > there and see what you guys think.
                                          > >>
                                          > >
                                          > > I don't know for sure, but I would guess that part of what you (we) are seeing is
                                          > due to the lag from concept to market that auto makers go through. It typically
                                          > takes several years for a manufacturer to design and implement something new. I
                                          > don't know how long, but I'd guess between 3-5 years, depending on how much is new
                                          > vs how much has already been designed. (Consider an all-new vehicle vs a new body
                                          > on an existing chassis.) Think about the Dodge Magnum, a big, gas-guzzling beast
                                          > available with a 300HP (or so) engine. It came out about a year or so ago. It was
                                          > probably in the works before W. became President.
                                          > >
                                          > > Honda and Toyota have traditionally made smaller vehicles, so were probably in a
                                          > much better position from the start to offer more fuel-efficient cars and take
                                          > advantage of today's higher gas prices.
                                          > >
                                          > > Paul
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links

                                           

                                        • Paul Archer
                                          ... For those of you who don t quite get what s different about this engine, let me attempt an explaination. First, a normal engine uses a four-stroke cycle.
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
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                                            Yesterday, Ariel Thomann wrote:

                                            > Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here
                                            > is their own website: : http://www.scuderigroup.com/
                                            >

                                            For those of you who don't quite get what's different about this engine, let
                                            me attempt an explaination.

                                            First, a normal engine uses a four-stroke cycle.


                                            Piston movement: down up down up
                                            Action happening: intake compression power exhaust

                                            In other words, as the piston moves down, it takes in a fuel/air mixture.
                                            The valves close, and the piston moves up, compressing the air (and fuel).
                                            The piston gets (almost to) the top of the stroke, and the spark plug fires,
                                            igniting the air/fuel mixture, and starting the power stroke. The expanding
                                            gasses push the piston down, providing power. The piston moves back up, and
                                            the exhaust gas is released.

                                            What happens in the Scuderi engine
                                            (http://scuderigroup.com/technology/images/scuderi_piston2.jpg) is that the
                                            air/fuel mixture (or possibly just the air, and the fuel is injected later)
                                            flows from the first piston (on the left) to the second piston (on the
                                            right).
                                            The second piston acts like the piston in a normal engine (performing the
                                            four phases I listed above). The first piston is ganged to the second, so
                                            they move (roughly) in phase.
                                            Every time the second piston moves down (on intake and power), the first
                                            piston does too, filling up with air. Every time the second piston moves up
                                            (on compression and exhaust), the first on does too, pushing air into the
                                            chamber between the pistons.

                                            What this means is that with a normal engine, a piston can take in the
                                            volume of one cylinder every cycle. With the Scuderi engine, the piston (the
                                            power piston on the right, that is) takes in the volume of two cylinders
                                            every cycle.

                                            I don't honestly know if this is really any better than a standard
                                            supercharger, since that's all this really is. (A supercharger uses a
                                            compressor turbine driven directly off the engine to compress incoming air
                                            to get more in the cylinder. A turbocharger, BTW, does the same job, but is
                                            driven from exhaust gas pressure.)

                                            I also question the wisdom of a four-cylinder engine (that according to the
                                            website produces as much power as a six-cylinder engine) that only fires on
                                            two cylinders. The problem here, especially if it does produce as much power
                                            as a six-cylinder engine, is that it means the power cylinder is doing three
                                            times the work (and producing three times the heat) of a cylinder in a
                                            regular car. That points to the potential for heat-related problems.

                                            There is potential here, though. Using a piston to compress the incoming air
                                            is probably cheaper (in terms of mechanical efficiency) than a supercharger.
                                            And it would produce much higher boost. A standard turbocharger (I can't
                                            give you numbers for superchargers, 'cause I don't know as much about them)
                                            produces around 8lbs(per square inch) of boost. Performance modders rarely
                                            jack them up past 12lbs because of reliability issues, and 15lbs (which is a
                                            full atmosphere) of boost is pretty much the max you can run them at without
                                            a high risk of failure.
                                            By doubling the amount of air going into the power cylinder, they're
                                            effectively doubling the atmospheric pressue, which would be like 15lbs
                                            boost from a turbo/super-charger.
                                            Their website mentions being able to fire the spark after TDC (top dead
                                            center), and having a superfast burn. In a normal engine, the spark is fired
                                            before the piston is done compressing the gas, so that it's burning well
                                            by the time the piston is moving down. That's inefficient. So being able to
                                            produce a complete burn after TDC is a win.


                                            Paul
                                          • Henry H Haynes
                                            At what psi does spontaneous combustion become a factor with a gasoline/air mixture? Henry ... For those of you who don t quite get what s different about this
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
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                                              At what psi does spontaneous combustion become a factor with a gasoline/air mixture?

                                              Henry

                                              Paul Archer <tigger@...> wrote:
                                              Yesterday, Ariel Thomann wrote:

                                              > Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here
                                              > is their own website: : http://www.scuderig roup.com/
                                              >

                                              For those of you who don't quite get what's different about this engine, let
                                              me attempt an explaination.

                                              First, a normal engine uses a four-stroke cycle.

                                              Piston movement: down up down up
                                              Action happening: intake compression power exhaust

                                              In other words, as the piston moves down, it takes in a fuel/air mixture.
                                              The valves close, and the piston moves up, compressing the air (and fuel).
                                              The piston gets (almost to) the top of the stroke, and the spark plug fires,
                                              igniting the air/fuel mixture, and starting the power stroke. The expanding
                                              gasses push the piston down, providing power. The piston moves back up, and
                                              the exhaust gas is released.

                                              What happens in the Scuderi engine
                                              (http://scuderigroup .com/technology/ images/scuderi_ piston2.jpg) is that the
                                              air/fuel mixture (or possibly just the air, and the fuel is injected later)
                                              flows from the first piston (on the left) to the second piston (on the
                                              right).
                                              The second piston acts like the piston in a normal engine (performing the
                                              four phases I listed above). The first piston is ganged to the second, so
                                              they move (roughly) in phase.
                                              Every time the second piston moves down (on intake and power), the first
                                              piston does too, filling up with air. Every time the second piston moves up
                                              (on compression and exhaust), the first on does too, pushing air into the
                                              chamber between the pistons.

                                              What this means is that with a normal engine, a piston can take in the
                                              volume of one cylinder every cycle. With the Scuderi engine, the piston (the
                                              power piston on the right, that is) takes in the volume of two cylinders
                                              every cycle.

                                              I don't honestly know if this is really any better than a standard
                                              supercharger, since that's all this really is. (A supercharger uses a
                                              compressor turbine driven directly off the engine to compress incoming air
                                              to get more in the cylinder. A turbocharger, BTW, does the same job, but is
                                              driven from exhaust gas pressure.)

                                              I also question the wisdom of a four-cylinder engine (that according to the
                                              website produces as much power as a six-cylinder engine) that only fires on
                                              two cylinders. The problem here, especially if it does produce as much power
                                              as a six-cylinder engine, is that it means the power cylinder is doing three
                                              times the work (and producing three times the heat) of a cylinder in a
                                              regular car. That points to the potential for heat-related problems.

                                              There is potential here, though. Using a piston to compress the incoming air
                                              is probably cheaper (in terms of mechanical efficiency) than a supercharger.
                                              And it would produce much higher boost. A standard turbocharger (I can't
                                              give you numbers for superchargers, 'cause I don't know as much about them)
                                              produces around 8lbs(per square inch) of boost. Performance modders rarely
                                              jack them up past 12lbs because of reliability issues, and 15lbs (which is a
                                              full atmosphere) of boost is pretty much the max you can run them at without
                                              a high risk of failure.
                                              By doubling the amount of air going into the power cylinder, they're
                                              effectively doubling the atmospheric pressue, which would be like 15lbs
                                              boost from a turbo/super- charger.
                                              Their website mentions being able to fire the spark after TDC (top dead
                                              center), and having a superfast burn. In a normal engine, the spark is fired
                                              before the piston is done compressing the gas, so that it's burning well
                                              by the time the piston is moving down. That's inefficient. So being able to
                                              produce a complete burn after TDC is a win.

                                              Paul

                                            • Paul Archer
                                              Good question. It s one I don t know the answer to, and part of the reason why I m unsure about the promise of this new engine design. ... [snip]
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
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                                                Good question. It's one I don't know the answer to, and part of the reason
                                                why I'm unsure about the promise of this new engine design.

                                                8:35am, Henry H Haynes wrote:

                                                > At what psi does spontaneous combustion become a factor with a gasoline/air mixture?
                                                >
                                                > Henry
                                                >
                                                > Paul Archer <tigger@...> wrote: Yesterday, Ariel Thomann wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this Scuderi engine, here
                                                > > is their own website: : http://www.scuderigroup.com/
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > For those of you who don't quite get what's different about this engine, let
                                                > me attempt an explaination.
                                                [snip]
                                              • Robert Johnston
                                                Depends on the temperature, of course. At atmospheric pressure, the autoignition temperature (AIT) defines the point at which spontaneous ignition occurs.
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Aug 3, 2006
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                                                  Depends on the temperature, of course.  At atmospheric pressure, the autoignition temperature (AIT) defines the point at which spontaneous ignition occurs.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoignition_temperature reports 275°C for gasoline (in air).  Normally, AIT is measured at atmospheric pressure. 

                                                   

                                                  There is a brief discussion of an apparatus to measure the effect of pressure on the AIT found at http://www.ptb.de/de/org/3/34/341/goedde.htm.  Basically, as pressure increases, the AIT decreases, but there is a limit to this effect due since increased pressure also shifts the liquid-vapor equilibrium towards the liquid phase.

                                                   

                                                  The Semenov Equation giving the effect of pressure on AIT is shown on p. 4 of this article, with a graph:  http://www.me.berkeley.edu/ME140/Handout-1.pdf

                                                   

                                                  There is a lot more in the literature on this, of course, but those are a few free references that showed up on Google.  As the article points out, diesel engines are designed to run in that fashion (no spark); that’s why they are so much fun to start in an Alaskan winter!

                                                   

                                                  Robert Johnston

                                                   


                                                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Paul Archer
                                                  Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:17 PM
                                                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] What is holding back American car companies?

                                                   

                                                  Good question. It's one I don't know the answer to, and part of the reason
                                                  why I'm unsure about the promise of this new engine design.

                                                  8:35am, Henry H Haynes wrote:

                                                  > At what psi does spontaneous combustion become a factor with a
                                                  gasoline/air mixture?
                                                  >
                                                  > Henry
                                                  >
                                                  > Paul Archer <tigger@...>
                                                  wrote: Yesterday, Ariel Thomann wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > Thank you, yes, that was it. For those who are curious about this
                                                  Scuderi engine, here
                                                  > > is their own website: : http://www.scuderig roup.com/
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > For those of you who don't quite get what's different about this engine,
                                                  let
                                                  > me attempt an explaination.
                                                  [snip]

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