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Re: [hreg] Car that works with compressed air. Promote it in Houston?

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  • drocketman@juno.com
    David Eggleston, I don t know the name of the high mileage Toyota car, but it must be close in spelling to the Previa, which is a minivan made by them from
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 22, 2000
      David Eggleston,

      I don't know the name of the high mileage Toyota car, but it must be
      close in spelling to the Previa, which is a minivan made by them from
      1991 to 1997. I've had three and mileage ranges from 16 to 25mpg. On
      related topic, I have felt that it would be a nice experiment to convert
      one of my two remaining Previas to multifuel use. Natural gas storage
      with a range of only 25 miles would serve as a primary fuel need for
      approximately 60% of my historical mileage use. Anything over the 25
      miles would be moded to standard fuel system use. This would keep the
      pressure tanks small and/or low pressure, simplifying the fueling and
      retrofit scar. At the same time significant reduction in polution and
      gasoline use could be made.
      Just one of those dreams, ha.

      Happy Thanksgiving to all,
      Dennis
    • Dan from Texas
      The Compressed air car sounds nice and should be looked into as any other alternative energy source vehicle, but don t expect to see them on the road in the
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 23, 2000
        The Compressed air car sounds nice and should be looked into as any other
        alternative energy source vehicle, but don't expect to see them on the road
        in the US. If history has any thing to do with it and it it does, the
        american auto industry will prevent them for being imported. The american
        auto industry will do anything in its power to prevent it from being used.
        ie. the death threats against the designer of the compressed air car. My
        late uncle used to work for GM in the development group, and 25 years ago, a
        farmer in kansas developed a carburator for use on his farm equipment and
        truck that gave him approximately 85 to 100 miles per gallon of gas. Now
        mind you, that was before all the anti-pollution devices being added to the
        engines. Today that probably would equal to about 70 to 80 miles per gallon.
        This carburator patient was purchased from the farmer for a modest sum back
        then, and instead of the auto industry using it on auto, they tested it and
        improved it to be even more effecient and then locked it up in a vault and
        that is where it has stayed ever since. If you ask GM about it, they deny
        that the carb ever existed. I know that it existed, because I saw pictures
        of it, that me uncle had of it and he was one of the test engineers.

        I would love to see more alternative modes of transportation here in
        Houston, weather it be natural gas, electric, power cells or hybrids. But
        in order for them to be widely accepted, the general public needs to be
        informed about them and a way needs to be found to change their attitudes on
        the gas gussler auto and what we need to do the help clean the air and make
        it better for all.

        One alternative mode of transportation is scheduled to start construction in
        the spring of 2001 after some 15 years of delays and obstructions by corrupt
        politictions in this city for the past 15 years. What I am talking about is
        the light rail line that will be built form downtown to the Astrodome. I
        commend the current metro board for having the guts to go against some of
        the members of city council and some state officials and federal officials
        to get this line built and without any federal, or state funding. I think
        that this light rail line will be a great way to moved people around for the
        2004 Superbowl and the 2012 olympics if our city officials don't screw up.
        What I would like to see happen, is to get the designers of the light rail
        system to consider using a hybrid Wind/PV systems to light the stations
        along the line. This might be something that HREG can put some effort into
        to try make happen. It would be a great way of imforming the public about
        alternative energry sources. It should be possible to use such a combined
        system and CF's to light the stations at night and sunlight and fiber lights
        during the day.

        I hope I'm not too much of a dreamer in seeing something like this to
        happen. I was part of the light rail group 15 years ago trying to get it
        built, but at that time several of the members of the metro boards were auto
        dealers and all they wanted to see was more busses for the transportation
        system. Had they been far thinking and concerned about the future and not
        thier pocketbooks, we might have had a system already running and we
        wouldn't have all the congestion we currently have or have the distinction
        of being the second smoggiest city in the country.

        I'll climb down off my soapbox now and I'll see you all at the meeting on
        December 3rd.

        Dan Stuettgen

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Kevin L. Conlin [mailto:kconlin@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 4:17 PM
        To: hreg@egroups.com
        Subject: Re: [hreg] Car that works with compressed air. Promote it in
        Houston?


        David is right, compressed air is not an efficient method of propulsion, and
        shouldn't be rationalized because of other things we do wrong as a society.
        While it's true PV is only 15% efficient, their energy debt is repaid in
        several years, which displaces pollution in the long term. Compressed air
        engines only relocate pollution, creating more total pollution than an
        internal combustion vehicle, the net result is more pollution, ozone
        depletion and global warming. I don't think Houston needs any more bogus
        pollution solutions, compressed natural gas makes more sense. Regards,
        Kevin

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Jim & Kathi Syzdek <jksyzdek@...>
        To: <hreg@egroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 10:07 AM
        Subject: Re: [hreg] Car that works with compressed air. Promote it in
        Houston?


        > Yes, it may not be very effcient, neither are photovoltaics, or internal
        > combustion engines and look at how many millions of both are out there
        being
        > used. If we don't start somewhere how do we get out of this downward
        spiral
        > of killing ourselves by suffocation?? I think this is another great start
        > at looking at alternatives for fuel, true having to compress the air
        > somehow, somewhere is going to use energy but we all use energy
        ineffciently
        > every day, just look at burning fossil fuels. I understand the internal
        > combustion engine is only 15-20 percent effcient itself, what does this
        say
        > for the big automakers that sell you a vehicle for way more than it's
        worth
        > and then control the price of fuel in their own way. Ever here of the
        cars
        > that can get 50-100 MPG? What happened to them? Sounds to me like big
        > industry is trying to get their hands into it again!!!!!!!!!!! and stop it
        > before it has a chance of starting.
        > I would like to congratulate the inventor of these cars and not condone
        > him, he has done a lot more than talk. Houston could use some cars like
        > these running around the streets, even if it's for just a few dozen or so.
        >
        > >From: "David M. Eggleston" <dmeengr@...>
        > >Reply-To: hreg@egroups.com
        > >To: hreg@egroups.com
        > >Subject: Re: [hreg] Car that works with compressed air. Promote it in
        > >Houston?
        > >Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:03:52 -0800
        > >
        > >hreg,
        > >
        > > Don't jump on the compressed air bandwagon until you find out more
        > >about
        > >the details. The energy used in compressing air goes more into heat than
        > >into
        > >pressure, and when the air cools back down you have lost much of the
        > >original
        > >energy. It may be clean, but the overall efficiency is terrible. This
        > >scheme
        > >has been put to work in West Germany using "cheap" base-load power to
        > >compress air off-peak and store it in a large salt dome underground. But
        it
        > >is used again in less than 24 hours, so not all of its heat is lost. They
        > >have to burn fuel to reheat it quite a bit so that the net efficiency is
        > >not
        > >too bad.
        > > Of course, the efficiency of air-powered motors is an additional
        > >question.
        > >It is usually not very good. Only gas turbines can do a really efficient
        > >job
        > >of putting the compressed air to work, and that requires additional fuel.
        > > Compressed-air powered vehicles may have a place in our
        transportation
        > >mix, but it is likely a small one.
        > >
        > >David M. Eggleston
        > >DME Engineering
        > >
        > >Feliciano Olivero wrote:
        > >
        > > > Jonathan,
        > > > December 3 looks OK for our next meeting!. I will make my best effort
        to
        > > > be there.
        > > > I went to CEC meeting last October 27, what happened with you and your
        > > > wife Diane?, I did not see you there.
        > > > The meeting and the movie went well, GM history from their perspective
        > >is
        > > > very interesting to say the least. But I think that the car has been a
        > > > highly beneficial invention, we only need to make it friendly to the
        > > > environment.
        > > >
        > > > By the way, have any of you read about the car that works with
        > >compressed
        > > > air?!...It was invented by a French Engineer that have been many years
        > > > working in the Formula 1 racing cars organizations. Mexico city has
        > > > ordered 40,000 of those cars to be used as taxis, and diminish
        Mexico's
        > > > city air pollution. The following is the summary that appeared in the
        > > > last Nov. 3, 2000, in the WIRE Newsletter (www.ises.org):
        > > >
        > > > "Renewable Energy News:
        > > >
        > > > Air powered car debuts in Johannesburg
        > > >
        > > > A car that could revolutionise the motor industry and which led to
        > > > death threats
        > > > against the designer will be unveiled at the Auto Africa show in
        > > > Johannesburg
        > > > next week. The e.Volution vehicle is powered by compressed air from
        > > > high-pressure cylinders similar to those used by deep-sea divers.
        Made
        > > > of
        > > > feather-light material and weighing only 700 kg, it is essentially a
        > > > city run
        > > > around but can reach a speed of about 130km/h on the open road. The
        > > > e.Volution
        > > > will be able to travel 200 km on one tank of compressed air at a
        cost
        > > > of about
        > > > 1c/km and can run for 10 hours in city traffic. The inventor is Guy
        > > > Negre, a
        > > > French motor vehicle engineer and former Formula One engine
        designer.
        > > > He has
        > > > apparently received death threats because of the invention, which
        > >could
        > > > cripple
        > > > the world's oil industry."
        > > >
        > > > For information, check the following web sites:
        > > > www.zeropollution.com
        > > > www.mdi-engines.com
        > > > http://www.motordeaire.com/
        > > >
        > >http://wire.ises.org/entry.nsf/E?Open&renews&6A794E565CC2929CC1256984002A
        > > > B5A3
        > > >
        > > > We could promote for Houston to make a test of the vehicles in
        downtown
        > > > area. What do you think?
        > > > Best regards to all,
        > > > Feliciano Olivero
        > > >
        >
        >
        ____________________________________________________________________________
        _________
        > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
        http://explorer.msn.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Robert Johnston
        One of the advantages that Houston offers HREG is the opportunity to interact with the big bad energy industry. :-) Actually, there is a lot of science and
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 24, 2000
          One of the advantages that Houston offers HREG is the opportunity
          to interact with the big bad energy industry. :-) Actually, there
          is a lot of science and technology in this area, and we have members
          involved in these industries, and in NASA, and other science-based
          organizations. I know that I for one have really enjoyed learning
          from our NASA members and architects, etc. I hope that we can
          continue to keep science in the foreground of our discussions.

          There are some fundamental science reasons--having nothing to do
          with auto company or energy company "cover-ups"--that explain why
          a compressed air car would not be energy efficient. This was explained
          in an earlier post. Generally, the more conversions you do between
          different forms of energy, the more losses you incur along the way.
          This is an example of that.

          The super efficient hybrid cars have been urban legend for some time.
          Considering the fortune that a car company would have made in the
          1970's with a fuel efficient car, and the fortune that companies are
          now spending on hyrid and fuel cell R&D, it makes no sense that they
          would be doing this if they had a 70-100 mpg carburetor technology
          in the vault. The automotive companies have no reason to suppress this.

          I think that Dan's concern for Houston is well-founded, however. One of
          the issues with hybrids or electric vehicles is that they often involve
          some level of inconvenience--in comfort, driving range, speed, capacity,
          or refueling convenience, not to mention initial cost. I think that it
          would be great if there were incentives for people to invest in these
          vehicles. One of the problems I see with the ozone abatement plan being
          implemented for Houston is that it includes no such incentives. What if,
          rather than a blanket 55 mph speed limit for everyone, we instead allowed
          efficient vehicles to drive 70 mph? This would encourage all the speed
          lovers to view hybrids as "performance vehicles" instead of as underpowered
          vehicles. It would provide motivation to put the extra upfront cost into
          a hybrid instead of a BMW. Unfortunately, this option is being ignored
          by our TNRCC and EPA. It is too bad, since I don't think altruistic
          motives are sufficient to launch hybrids and electric vehicles into mass
          popularity in Houston or anywhere else, at least at present cost premiums.

          Maybe in addition to Dan's suggestions on mass transit, HREG members might
          be interested in writing TNRCC and city/county officials to request that
          such incentives be included in the proposed plans for this area. I have
          personally done so during the public comment period for the proposed plan.
          It may already be over, but you can check the TNRCC website if you are
          interested in offering comments. They have a mail link for doing so.

          Robert Johnston



          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Dan from Texas [mailto:Dans1@...]
          > Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 8:51 PM
          > To: hreg@egroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [hreg] Car that works with compressed air. Promote it in
          > Houston?
          >
          >
          > The Compressed air car sounds nice and should be looked into
          > as any other
          > alternative energy source vehicle, but don't expect to see
          > them on the road
          > in the US. If history has any thing to do with it and it it does, the
          > american auto industry will prevent them for being imported.
          > The american
          > auto industry will do anything in its power to prevent it
          > from being used.
          > ie. the death threats against the designer of the compressed
          > air car. My
          > late uncle used to work for GM in the development group, and
          > 25 years ago, a
          > farmer in kansas developed a carburator for use on his farm
          > equipment and
          > truck that gave him approximately 85 to 100 miles per gallon
          > of gas. Now
          > mind you, that was before all the anti-pollution devices
          > being added to the
          > engines. Today that probably would equal to about 70 to 80
          > miles per gallon.
          > This carburator patient was purchased from the farmer for a
          > modest sum back
          > then, and instead of the auto industry using it on auto, they
          > tested it and
          > improved it to be even more effecient and then locked it up
          > in a vault and
          > that is where it has stayed ever since. If you ask GM about
          > it, they deny
          > that the carb ever existed. I know that it existed, because
          > I saw pictures
          > of it, that me uncle had of it and he was one of the test engineers.
          >
          > I would love to see more alternative modes of transportation here in
          > Houston, weather it be natural gas, electric, power cells or
          > hybrids. But
          > in order for them to be widely accepted, the general public
          > needs to be
          > informed about them and a way needs to be found to change
          > their attitudes on
          > the gas gussler auto and what we need to do the help clean
          > the air and make
          > it better for all.
          >
          > One alternative mode of transportation is scheduled to start
          > construction in
          > the spring of 2001 after some 15 years of delays and
          > obstructions by corrupt
          > politictions in this city for the past 15 years. What I am
          > talking about is
          > the light rail line that will be built form downtown to the
          > Astrodome. I
          > commend the current metro board for having the guts to go
          > against some of
          > the members of city council and some state officials and
          > federal officials
          > to get this line built and without any federal, or state
          > funding. I think
          > that this light rail line will be a great way to moved people
          > around for the
          > 2004 Superbowl and the 2012 olympics if our city officials
          > don't screw up.
          > What I would like to see happen, is to get the designers of
          > the light rail
          > system to consider using a hybrid Wind/PV systems to light
          > the stations
          > along the line. This might be something that HREG can put
          > some effort into
          > to try make happen. It would be a great way of imforming the
          > public about
          > alternative energry sources. It should be possible to use
          > such a combined
          > system and CF's to light the stations at night and sunlight
          > and fiber lights
          > during the day.
          >
          > I hope I'm not too much of a dreamer in seeing something like this to
          > happen. I was part of the light rail group 15 years ago
          > trying to get it
          > built, but at that time several of the members of the metro
          > boards were auto
          > dealers and all they wanted to see was more busses for the
          > transportation
          > system. Had they been far thinking and concerned about the
          > future and not
          > thier pocketbooks, we might have had a system already running and we
          > wouldn't have all the congestion we currently have or have
          > the distinction
          > of being the second smoggiest city in the country.
          >
          > I'll climb down off my soapbox now and I'll see you all at
          > the meeting on
          > December 3rd.
          >
          > Dan Stuettgen
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Kevin L. Conlin [mailto:kconlin@...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 4:17 PM
          > To: hreg@egroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [hreg] Car that works with compressed air. Promote it in
          > Houston?
          >
          >
          > David is right, compressed air is not an efficient method of
          > propulsion, and
          > shouldn't be rationalized because of other things we do wrong
          > as a society.
          > While it's true PV is only 15% efficient, their energy debt
          > is repaid in
          > several years, which displaces pollution in the long term.
          > Compressed air
          > engines only relocate pollution, creating more total pollution than an
          > internal combustion vehicle, the net result is more pollution, ozone
          > depletion and global warming. I don't think Houston needs
          > any more bogus
          > pollution solutions, compressed natural gas makes more sense. Regards,
          > Kevin
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Jim & Kathi Syzdek <jksyzdek@...>
          > To: <hreg@egroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 10:07 AM
          > Subject: Re: [hreg] Car that works with compressed air. Promote it in
          > Houston?
          >
          >
          > > Yes, it may not be very effcient, neither are
          > photovoltaics, or internal
          > > combustion engines and look at how many millions of both
          > are out there
          > being
          > > used. If we don't start somewhere how do we get out of
          > this downward
          > spiral
          > > of killing ourselves by suffocation?? I think this is
          > another great start
          > > at looking at alternatives for fuel, true having to compress the air
          > > somehow, somewhere is going to use energy but we all use energy
          > ineffciently
          > > every day, just look at burning fossil fuels. I understand
          > the internal
          > > combustion engine is only 15-20 percent effcient itself,
          > what does this
          > say
          > > for the big automakers that sell you a vehicle for way more
          > than it's
          > worth
          > > and then control the price of fuel in their own way. Ever
          > here of the
          > cars
          > > that can get 50-100 MPG? What happened to them? Sounds to
          > me like big
          > > industry is trying to get their hands into it
          > again!!!!!!!!!!! and stop it
          > > before it has a chance of starting.
          > > I would like to congratulate the inventor of these cars
          > and not condone
          > > him, he has done a lot more than talk. Houston could use
          > some cars like
          > > these running around the streets, even if it's for just a
          > few dozen or so.
          > >
          > > >From: "David M. Eggleston" <dmeengr@...>
          > > >Reply-To: hreg@egroups.com
          > > >To: hreg@egroups.com
          > > >Subject: Re: [hreg] Car that works with compressed air.
          > Promote it in
          > > >Houston?
          > > >Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:03:52 -0800
          > > >
          > > >hreg,
          > > >
          > > > Don't jump on the compressed air bandwagon until you
          > find out more
          > > >about
          > > >the details. The energy used in compressing air goes more
          > into heat than
          > > >into
          > > >pressure, and when the air cools back down you have lost
          > much of the
          > > >original
          > > >energy. It may be clean, but the overall efficiency is
          > terrible. This
          > > >scheme
          > > >has been put to work in West Germany using "cheap"
          > base-load power to
          > > >compress air off-peak and store it in a large salt dome
          > underground. But
          > it
          > > >is used again in less than 24 hours, so not all of its
          > heat is lost. They
          > > >have to burn fuel to reheat it quite a bit so that the net
          > efficiency is
          > > >not
          > > >too bad.
          > > > Of course, the efficiency of air-powered motors is an
          > additional
          > > >question.
          > > >It is usually not very good. Only gas turbines can do a
          > really efficient
          > > >job
          > > >of putting the compressed air to work, and that requires
          > additional fuel.
          > > > Compressed-air powered vehicles may have a place in our
          > transportation
          > > >mix, but it is likely a small one.
          > > >
          > > >David M. Eggleston
          > > >DME Engineering
          > > >
          > > >Feliciano Olivero wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > Jonathan,
          > > > > December 3 looks OK for our next meeting!. I will make
          > my best effort
          > to
          > > > > be there.
          > > > > I went to CEC meeting last October 27, what happened
          > with you and your
          > > > > wife Diane?, I did not see you there.
          > > > > The meeting and the movie went well, GM history from
          > their perspective
          > > >is
          > > > > very interesting to say the least. But I think that the
          > car has been a
          > > > > highly beneficial invention, we only need to make it
          > friendly to the
          > > > > environment.
          > > > >
          > > > > By the way, have any of you read about the car that works with
          > > >compressed
          > > > > air?!...It was invented by a French Engineer that have
          > been many years
          > > > > working in the Formula 1 racing cars organizations.
          > Mexico city has
          > > > > ordered 40,000 of those cars to be used as taxis, and diminish
          > Mexico's
          > > > > city air pollution. The following is the summary that
          > appeared in the
          > > > > last Nov. 3, 2000, in the WIRE Newsletter (www.ises.org):
          > > > >
          > > > > "Renewable Energy News:
          > > > >
          > > > > Air powered car debuts in Johannesburg
          > > > >
          > > > > A car that could revolutionise the motor industry and
          > which led to
          > > > > death threats
          > > > > against the designer will be unveiled at the Auto
          > Africa show in
          > > > > Johannesburg
          > > > > next week. The e.Volution vehicle is powered by
          > compressed air from
          > > > > high-pressure cylinders similar to those used by
          > deep-sea divers.
          > Made
          > > > > of
          > > > > feather-light material and weighing only 700 kg, it
          > is essentially a
          > > > > city run
          > > > > around but can reach a speed of about 130km/h on the
          > open road. The
          > > > > e.Volution
          > > > > will be able to travel 200 km on one tank of
          > compressed air at a
          > cost
          > > > > of about
          > > > > 1c/km and can run for 10 hours in city traffic. The
          > inventor is Guy
          > > > > Negre, a
          > > > > French motor vehicle engineer and former Formula One engine
          > designer.
          > > > > He has
          > > > > apparently received death threats because of the
          > invention, which
          > > >could
          > > > > cripple
          > > > > the world's oil industry."
          > > > >
          > > > > For information, check the following web sites:
          > > > > www.zeropollution.com
          > > > > www.mdi-engines.com
          > > > > http://www.motordeaire.com/
          > > > >
          > >
          >http://wire.ises.org/entry.nsf/E?Open&renews&6A794E565CC2929CC1256984002A
          > > > B5A3
          > > >
          > > > We could promote for Houston to make a test of the vehicles in
          downtown
          > > > area. What do you think?
          > > > Best regards to all,
          > > > Feliciano Olivero
          > > >
          >
          >
          ____________________________________________________________________________
          _________
          > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
          http://explorer.msn.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • David M. Eggleston
          ... Right, now I had to look up the proper name. It is the Toyota Prius: See http://prius.toyota.com/ David
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 24, 2000
            drocketman@... wrote:

            > David Eggleston,
            >
            > I don't know the name of the high mileage Toyota car, but it must be
            > close in spelling to the Previa,

            Right, now I had to look up the proper name. It is the Toyota Prius:
            See http://prius.toyota.com/

            David

            > which is a minivan made by them from
            > 1991 to 1997. I've had three and mileage ranges from 16 to 25mpg. On
            > related topic, I have felt that it would be a nice experiment to convert
            > one of my two remaining Previas to multifuel use. Natural gas storage
            > with a range of only 25 miles would serve as a primary fuel need for
            > approximately 60% of my historical mileage use. Anything over the 25
            > miles would be moded to standard fuel system use. This would keep the
            > pressure tanks small and/or low pressure, simplifying the fueling and
            > retrofit scar. At the same time significant reduction in polution and
            > gasoline use could be made.
            > Just one of those dreams, ha.
            >
            > Happy Thanksgiving to all,
            > Dennis
            >
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