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Re: [hreg] upgrading rental properties

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  • Bashir Syed
    In China and Israel, it s mandatory that every building/home installs and integrated Solar Thermal Collector on top of which sit a PV Module. Sun s heat is
    Message 1 of 16 , May 25 7:12 AM
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      In China and Israel, it's mandatory that every building/home installs and integrated Solar Thermal Collector on top of which sit a PV Module. Sun's heat is trasfered blow to the Thermal collectors. I saw a solar thermal system for hot water under test bring temperature up between 45 to 48 degree Celsius (centigrade). The other advantage of integrating PV with thermal Collectors is that in the long run it increases the fficiency and life of the PV system in extremely hot places. 
      PV systems are the quitest and have no moving parts, but generate electricity based on number of hours of Sunshine.   
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 7:56 AM
      Subject: Re: [hreg] upgrading rental properties

      Acute awareness of cash flow is there, but was hoping there were more
      monetary/tax incentives to do something.  Making/saving money for me was not
      the goal, but if it could be cost-neutral or at least not too much(either
      with direct or tax incentives) to helps others save, it would be
      provocative.  Since all of the houses are adjacent to each other, "neighbor"
      issues are less.  Quiet, microturbines could work, but I have yet to find
      one which was quiet enough to locate outside a bedroom window.  Even a
      shared solar water heater sounds interesting.  Not sure how to address water
      quantities from different houses, but still interesting.

      ethan

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Kevin L. Conlin" <kconlin@...>
      To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:11 PM
      Subject: RE: [hreg] upgrading rental properties


      > Ethan,  Because the renter is responsible for paying the utility bills,
      and
      > the landlord does not control how much energy the tenant uses, there is
      > little incentive for the owner to upgrade, especially with a technology as
      > expensive as solar. Rental properties are usually bought with cash flow in
      > mind, and an investment in solar will negatively affect this, so I think
      you
      > are going to have a tough sell.
      > While it's true that the house might be more appealing to a prospective
      > renter if it had solar, I just don't think the owner would invest that
      kind
      > of money for a relatively small benefit.
      >
      > ________________________
      > Kevin Conlin
      > Solarcraft, Inc.
      > 13130 Stafford Road, Suite 125
      > Stafford, TX 77477-4536
      > (281)495-0438
      > fax (281)495-0440
      > kconlin@...
      > www.solarcraft.net
      >
      >


    • Prasad Enjeti
      Sounds like a interesting project for senior level undergraduate student team at Texas A&M to explore what are the best options.. for energy savings.. Let me
      Message 2 of 16 , May 25 7:28 AM
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        Sounds like a interesting project for senior level undergraduate student team at Texas A&M to explore what are the best options.. for energy savings.. Let me know if you are interested..

        Best

        Rohini Bosamia <rohinib@...> wrote:
        Nan,
         
        The houses are from the 50s and 60s and are located in Bryan.  All 8 eight houses are on the same block and are rented to graduate students from the same department at Texas A&M.  Regarding energy production, I thought there might have been an opportunity to do something unique since they are all adjacent or across the street from each other.
         
        None of the houses had any insulation.  Installing the insulation, caulking, and attic ventilation are routine improvements.  Windows are slowly getting changed as well.  Even with this, they are far from air-tight because they are just small, older houses which were neglected years ago.  Fortunately, there are large trees around most of the houses, and other have been planted.  A few houses had clotheslines, but they were never used.  
         
        ethan  
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 3:52 AM
        Subject: Re: [hreg] upgrading rental properties

        Yes, but as an energy conscious landlady for my four 1950 houses, I identified many improvements that payback within a year or two, faster than solar.  Then I haven't done any of them:
        Screens (solar or not)
        Clothesline.
        Ventilate attic
        Caulk
        Insulate
        Window film or awnings on west and east facing windows.
        Radiant barrier over insulation
        Upgrade fridge
        Replace dusk-to-dawn outside light with a motion detector light.




        ************************************************************
        Dr. Prasad Enjeti Power Electronics & Power Quality Laboratory
        Professor, Fellow of IEEE Department of Electrical Engineering
        Texas A&M University
        College Station, TX - 77843-3128
        Tel: 979-845-7466
        Fax: 979-845-6259
        Email: enjeti@... ; http://enjeti.tamu.edu
        *************************************************************


        Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.

      • Kevin L. Conlin
        Hi Bashir, Thank you for your post, I m not sure I agree with your assessment. You may not like the comment that solar is expensive, but I don t think it is
        Message 3 of 16 , May 25 9:11 AM
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          Hi Bashir,  Thank you for your post, I’m not sure I agree with your assessment.  You may not like the comment that solar is expensive, but I don’t think it is deceptive.  If not for tax credits, utility rebates and aggressive buy-back programs, photovoltaics would not be enjoying the world wide boom that is currently happening.  You are correct in stating that the payback for stand alone systems is much shorter, usually due to the high cost of utility line extensions.  For the industrial systems that we build the payback is usually immediate

          Ethan asked for advice in the context of a landlord wanting to upgrade the energy efficiency of rental houses.  If you spent equal amounts of money on PV or efficiency upgrades such as a higher efficiency air conditioner, extra insulation, radiant barriers, solar screens, caulking, etc, such as Nan Hildreth pointed out, the payback would be much quicker on the efficiency upgrades than it would on the PV.  While I applaud people that invest in PV for their homes for the reasons that you mentioned, from the standpoint of the landlord it makes more sense to reduce the utility bills through conservation measures than it does to try and generate your own electricity, especially in older, leaky houses with little or no insulation.

          You are correct in that we should all take personal responsibility for the negative impact out energy habits have on the environment and do the best we can to reduce those impacts, I think you would have to agree that if you can save twice as much energy through conservation that you can generate with PV, the positive impact of those steps will have a greater benefit to the planet.

          I don’t want to sound negative about residential PV, I would love it if Center Point would initiate a rebate program like the City of Austin , it would have a very positive impact on the city. I applaud the people that have moved forward and installed PV in spite of the lack of incentives.  I just don’t think it is the best thing a landlord can due to upgrade energy wasting houses.

           

          Enough for now, I’ve got to get back to work!

           

          ________________________

          Kevin Conlin
          Solarcraft, Inc.
          13130 Stafford Road, Suite 125
          Stafford, TX 77477-4536
          (281)495-0438
          fax (281)495-0440
          kconlin@...
          www.solarcraft.net

           


          From: Bashir Syed [mailto:bsyed@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:18 PM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [hreg] upgrading rental properties

           

          We keep on hearing repeatedly about "technology as expensive as solar." This is very deceptive "label for Solar Energy Technology." What is never explained to people is that everything costs to bring about a change. For example when one wants to upgrade an autmobile, today it costs more compared to ten years ago, but people buy it because of necessity.

          The cost of energy supplied by utility companies is going to keep on increasing without any returns to the consumers including many hidden charges. But what's more satisfying than spending the money up front to install a PV Home System to supplement the ever increasing cost of energy, and doing one's duty to curb the airpollution, producing many millions of deaths from those poisons in the air we inhale. Even big corporations in Manhattan, New York are installing Solar Panels up on the roof and around Building Facade and feeding this energy back to the grid to cut dow n the effective bills. And in the long run, even  a Stand-Alone systems pays itself back from 5 to seven years, after which the consumer is totally independent (other than replacing the batteries and maintaining the system) the Sunshine is absolutely free. It's like buying a new car or by riding a public transport, which over the life of an automobile would eventualy cost more when one uses public transport plus the dependence.

          ----- Original Message -----

          Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:11 PM

          Subject: RE: [hreg] upgrading rental properties

           

          Ethan,  Because the renter is responsible for paying the utility bills, and
          the landlord does not control how much energy the tenant uses, there is
          little incentive for the owner to upgrade, especially with a technology as
          expensive as solar. Rental properties are usually bought with cash flow in
          mind, and an investment in solar will negatively affect this, so I think you
          are going to have a tough sell.
          While it's true that the house might be more appealing to a prospective
          renter if it had solar, I just don't think the owner would invest that kind
          of money for a relatively small benefit.

          ________________________
          Kevin Conlin
          Solarcraft, Inc.
          13130 Stafford Road, Suite 125
          Stafford, TX 77477-4536
          (281)495-0438
          fax (281)495-0440
          kconlin@...
          www.solarcraft.net


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Rohini Bosamia [mailto:rohinib@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 1:00 PM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [hreg] upgrading rental properties

          Are there feasible opportunities to include renewable energy concepts into
          rental properties?

          I am updating several rental properties(single family homes on same street)
          and would consider changes to the energy use/production of each home.  Many
          of the homes are adjacent lots which may provide additional opportunities.
          There does not seem to be much info on this topic.  Any rebates are also
          limited because the homes are not my primary residence.

          Any insights or experiences would be appreciated.

          Thanks,
          Ethan






          Yahoo! Groups Links









        • Rohini Bosamia
          Nan, rohinib@earthlink.net ethan
          Message 4 of 16 , May 25 9:16 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Nan,
             
             
            ethan
          • Bashir Syed
            Kevin: I am in a hurry to take a flight tomorrow morning to attending the REAsia 2006 Conf. & Exhibition in Beijing, China. I will respond after my return
            Message 5 of 16 , May 25 2:36 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Kevin:
              I am in a hurry to take a flight tomorrow morning to attending the REAsia 2006 Conf. & Exhibition in Beijing, China. I will respond after my return (June 2, 2006). Conservation first and RE later could do half the job.
               
              Bashir A. Syed
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:11 AM
              Subject: RE: [hreg] upgrading rental properties

              Hi Bashir,  Thank you for your post, I’m not sure I agree with your assessment.  You may not like the comment that solar is expensive, but I don’t think it is deceptive.  If not for tax credits, utility rebates and aggressive buy-back programs, photovoltaics would not be enjoying the world wide boom that is currently happening.  You are correct in stating that the payback for stand alone systems is much shorter, usually due to the high cost of utility line extensions.  For the industrial systems that we build the payback is usually immediate

              Ethan asked for advice in the context of a landlord wanting to upgrade the energy efficiency of rental houses.  If you spent equal amounts of money on PV or efficiency upgrades such as a higher efficiency air conditioner, extra insulation, radiant barriers, solar screens, caulking, etc, such as Nan Hildreth pointed out, the payback would be much quicker on the efficiency upgrades than it would on the PV.  While I applaud people that invest in PV for their homes for the reasons that you mentioned, from the standpoint of the landlord it makes more sense to reduce the utility bills through conservation measures than it does to try and generate your own electricity, especially in older, leaky houses with little or no insulation.

              You are correct in that we should all take personal responsibility for the negative impact out energy habits have on the environment and do the best we can to reduce those impacts, I think you would have to agree that if you can save twice as much energy through conservation that you can generate with PV, the positive impact of those steps will have a greater benefit to the planet.

              I don’t want to sound negative about residential PV, I would love it if Center Point would initiate a rebate program like the City of Austin , it would have a very positive impact on the city. I applaud the people that have moved forward and installed PV in spite of the lack of incentives.  I just don’t think it is the best thing a landlord can due to upgrade energy wasting houses.

               

              Enough for now, I’ve got to get back to work!

               

              ________________________

              Kevin Conlin
              Solarcraft, Inc.
              13130 Stafford Road, Suite 125
              Stafford, TX 77477-4536
              (281)495-0438
              fax (281)495-0440
              kconlin@...
              www.solarcraft.net

               


              From: Bashir Syed [mailto:bsyed@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:18 PM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [hreg] upgrading rental properties

               

              We keep on hearing repeatedly about "technology as expensive as solar." This is very deceptive "label for Solar Energy Technology." What is never explained to people is that everything costs to bring about a change. For example when one wants to upgrade an autmobile, today it costs more compared to ten years ago, but people buy it because of necessity.

              The cost of energy supplied by utility companies is going to keep on increasing without any returns to the consumers including many hidden charges. But what's more satisfying than spending the money up front to install a PV Home System to supplement the ever increasing cost of energy, and doing one's duty to curb the airpollution, producing many millions of deaths from those poisons in the air we inhale. Even big corporations in Manhattan, New York are installing Solar Panels up on the roof and around Building Facade and feeding this energy back to the grid to cut dow n the effective bills. And in the long run, even  a Stand-Alone systems pays itself back from 5 to seven years, after which the consumer is totally independent (other than replacing the batteries and maintaining the system) the Sunshine is absolutely free. It's like buying a new car or by riding a public transport, which over the life of an automobile would eventualy cost more when one uses public transport plus the dependence.

              ----- Original Message -----

              Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:11 PM

              Subject: RE: [hreg] upgrading rental properties

               

              Ethan,  Because the renter is responsible for paying the utility bills, and
              the landlord does not control how much energy the tenant uses, there is
              little incentive for the owner to upgrade, especially with a technology as
              expensive as solar. Rental properties are usually bought with cash flow in
              mind, and an investment in solar will negatively affect this, so I think you
              are going to have a tough sell.
              While it's true that the house might be more appealing to a prospective
              renter if it had solar, I just don't think the owner would invest that kind
              of money for a relatively small benefit.

              ________________________
              Kevin Conlin
              Solarcraft, Inc.
              13130 Stafford Road, Suite 125
              Stafford, TX 77477-4536
              (281)495-0438
              fax (281)495-0440
              kconlin@...
              www.solarcraft.net


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Rohini Bosamia [mailto:rohinib@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 1:00 PM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [hreg] upgrading rental properties

              Are there feasible opportunities to include renewable energy concepts into
              rental properties?

              I am updating several rental properties(single family homes on same street)
              and would consider changes to the energy use/production of each home.  Many
              of the homes are adjacent lots which may provide additional opportunities.
              There does not seem to be much info on this topic.  Any rebates are also
              limited because the homes are not my primary residence.

              Any insights or experiences would be appreciated.

              Thanks,
              Ethan






              Yahoo! Groups Links









            • Andrew McCalla
              Bashir, When you get back, will you direct us to some of the commercially available pv/thermal hybrid product? Thanks and have a safe trip. Andrew H. McCalla
              Message 6 of 16 , May 26 5:53 AM
              • 0 Attachment

                Bashir,

                 

                When you get back, will you direct us to some of the commercially available pv/thermal hybrid product?

                 

                Thanks and have a safe trip.

                 

                Andrew H. McCalla

                Meridian Energy Systems

                2300 S. Lamar, Ste. 107

                Austin, TX   78704

                 

                Voice: (512) 448-0055

                Fax:    (512) 448-0045

                www.meridiansolar.com

                 


                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bashir Syed
                Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 9:13 AM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [hreg] upgrading rental properties

                 

                In China and Israel , it's mandatory that every building/home installs and integrated Solar Thermal Collector on top of which sit a PV Module. Sun's heat is trasfered blow to the Thermal collectors. I saw a solar thermal system for hot water under test bring temperature up between 45 to 48 degree Celsius (centigrade). The other advantage of integrating PV with thermal Collectors is that in the long run it increases the fficiency and life of the PV system in extremely hot places. 

                PV systems are the quitest and have no moving parts, but generate electricity based on number of hours of Sunshine.   

                ----- Original Message -----

                Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 7:56 AM

                Subject: Re: [hreg] upgrading rental properties

                 

                Acute awareness of cash flow is there, but was hoping there were more
                monetary/tax incentives to do something.  Making/saving money for me was not
                the goal, but if it could be cost-neutral or at least not too much(either
                with direct or tax incentives) to helps others save, it would be
                provocative.  Since all of the houses are adjacent to each other, "neighbor"
                issues are less.  Quiet, microturbines could work, but I have yet to find
                one which was quiet enough to locate outside a bedroom window.  Even a
                shared solar water heater sounds interesting.  Not sure how to address water
                quantities from different houses, but still interesting.

                ethan

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Kevin L. Conlin" <kconlin@...>
                To: < hreg@yahoogroups.com >
                Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:11 PM
                Subject: RE: [hreg] upgrading rental properties


                > Ethan,  Because the renter is responsible for paying the utility bills,
                and
                > the landlord does not control how much energy the tenant uses, there is
                > little incentive for the owner to upgrade, especially with a technology as
                > expensive as solar. Rental properties are usually bought with cash flow in
                > mind, and an investment in solar will negatively affect this, so I think
                you
                > are going to have a tough sell.
                > While it's true that the house might be more appealing to a prospective
                > renter if it had solar, I just don't think the owner would invest that
                kind
                > of money for a relatively small benefit.
                >
                > ________________________
                > Kevin Conlin
                > Solarcraft, Inc.
                > 13130 Stafford Road, Suite 125
                > Stafford , TX 77477-4536
                > (281)495-0438
                > fax (281)495-0440
                > kconlin@...
                > www.solarcraft.net
                >
                >



              • Nan Hildreth
                On cash flow, my tenants utility bills are, in some months, 30% to 50% of rent. To keep the tenants, installing some efficiency methods make sense. Yes,
                Message 7 of 16 , May 26 8:33 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  On cash flow, my tenants utility bills are, in some months, 30% to
                  50% of rent. To keep the tenants, installing some efficiency methods
                  make sense.

                  Yes, tenants waste energy, and as landlord I can explain how they can
                  skrimp. BTW, it seems the federal tax credit for new windows,
                  insulating, etc, doesn't apply to rent houses.

                  At 07:56 AM 5/25/2006, Rohini Bosamia wrote:
                  >Acute awareness of cash flow is there, but was hoping there were more
                  >monetary/tax incentives to do something. Making/saving money for me was not
                  >the goal, but if it could be cost-neutral or at least not too much(either
                  >with direct or tax incentives) to helps others save, it would be
                  >provocative. Since all of the houses are adjacent to each other, "neighbor"
                  >issues are less. Quiet, microturbines could work, but I have yet to find
                  >one which was quiet enough to locate outside a bedroom window. Even a
                  >shared solar water heater sounds interesting. Not sure how to address water
                  >quantities from different houses, but still interesting.
                  >
                  >ethan
                  >
                  >----- Original Message -----
                  >From: "Kevin L. Conlin" <kconlin@...>
                  >To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 2:11 PM
                  >Subject: RE: [hreg] upgrading rental properties
                  >
                  >
                  > > Ethan, Because the renter is responsible for paying the utility bills,
                  >and
                  > > the landlord does not control how much energy the tenant uses, there is
                  > > little incentive for the owner to upgrade, especially with a technology as
                  > > expensive as solar. Rental properties are usually bought with cash flow in
                  > > mind, and an investment in solar will negatively affect this, so I think
                  >you
                  > > are going to have a tough sell.
                  > > While it's true that the house might be more appealing to a prospective
                  > > renter if it had solar, I just don't think the owner would invest that
                  >kind
                  > > of money for a relatively small benefit.
                  > >
                  > > ________________________
                  > > Kevin Conlin
                  > > Solarcraft, Inc.
                  > > 13130 Stafford Road, Suite 125
                  > > Stafford, TX 77477-4536
                  > > (281)495-0438
                  > > fax (281)495-0440
                  > > kconlin@...
                  > > www.solarcraft.net
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  Nan Hildreth, 713-842-6643 NanHildreth@...
                  3939 Luca St. Houston, Tx 77021

                  "Life is a daring adventure, or nothing. To keep our faces toward
                  change and behave like free spirits in the presence of fate is
                  strength undefeatable."
                  Helen Keller
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