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Re: [hreg] Solar info from WISE

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  • Kevin L. Conlin
    Hi Mike, Thanks for your response, the points are accurate, but I don t agree with their position. My point was that if you are running sensitive loads such
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 17, 2000
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      Hi Mike, Thanks for your response, the points are accurate, but I don't
      agree with their position. My point was that if you are running sensitive
      loads such as computers, phone systems, etc you will have to invest in
      power conditioning equipment anyway, such as surge protectors and UPS
      modules, which contain batteries and inverters. If you limit the use to
      electronics, you do not need surge capability. And while an AC-UPS system
      will be cheaper if you simply use the grid to charge the batteries, a solar
      charged one will utilize the clean solar power tp provide clean AC power. I
      don't agree that solar in not inherently clean, it is. What makes it dirty
      is sending it through the typically cheap solar voltage regulators which,
      because of poor quality and swithcing frequencies, create electronic noise
      that can disturb sensitive electronics. We have even had problems with the
      better regulators such as Morningstar.

      As for inverter sizing, keep in mind that with a battery charging system,
      the inverter has to be sized to the load, not the PV array, and although
      batteries have their limitations and drawbacks, they are still the best way
      to back-up critical loads. As you know, I don't recommend PV when you have a
      grid connect anyway, but stand by my position that by utilizing solar for
      critical and sensitive loads is just as economic as dumping it back into the
      grid, because you are in effect net metering by using it for a dedicated
      purpose. The difference is somewhat philosophical, but I think solar is
      more cost effective when used in this fashion, and people would be more
      willing to use it for small systems such as UPS rather than trying to power
      their home or offset their utility bills with it. I have one customer who
      has backed up his AC sites for years with a small solar system, and he
      reports that they are the most reliable sites in his network (he has
      thousands). The Solar/AC sites are much more reliable than either AC alone
      of stand alone solar. Thanks for an interesting perspective and dialogue.
      Best regards, Kevin

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Ewert, Mike <mike.ewert@...>
      To: <hreg@egroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 9:25 PM
      Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar info from WISE


      > Kevin, I hadn't heard this argument against utility power before, so I
      asked
      > some colleagues who work for Aerovironment what they thought. They build
      > solar motor controllers and worked on the GM electric car, among other
      > things. Here is what one said.
      >
      > Personally, I think there are cases when you should remain DC too. I'd
      like
      > to see more DC appliances mass produced so they don't cost twice as much
      as
      > AC counterparts.
      >
      ____________________________________________________________________________
      > __________
      > This gentleman is talking about two things, PV power and clean power.
      >
      > PV power:
      >
      > By far, the most cost and energy efficient way to use solar electric
      energy
      > when a grid is available is to have the PV tied to the grid. This
      > eliminates batteries (cost, maintenance, inefficiency) and off grid
      > inverters (large size, expensive, less efficient). When the PV is tied to
      > the customer's side of the meter, they get the benefit of their
      investment.
      > The excess and then sell the rest back to the utility, at night, power is
      > bought from the utility. This concept is net metering, where the utility
      > buys power from the customer at the same price it sells to the customer
      > (this only works if the customer is a net user of energy or breaks even,
      the
      > utility will not allow net surplus of energy under net metering).
      >
      > Clean Power
      >
      > PV inherently isn't clean by itself, it takes a stable source (batteries)
      > and a high quality inverter. The cases that need very clean power
      (cleaner
      > than the grid) are very few. If you have one of these situations, you
      don't
      > need PV, you can go to battery backed, off grid system (UPS) that powers
      the
      > critical loads. The batteries can be charged by the grid and/or PV (or
      > other supply, diesel generator). If charging these with PV is desired,
      then
      > undersize the PV and use the grid for the rest of the energy. This will
      be
      > much more cost effective than sizing the PV for worst case which greatly
      > under utilizes the PV the rest of the time. Another way to go is to use
      an
      > on/off grid controller that allows the PV to charge the batteries, when
      they
      > are fully charged, then the excess power goes to the grid (in this case
      the
      > array can be oversized). The off grid inverter (vs. on grid) is usually
      > less expensive per watt, but you need to size it significantly larger than
      > your array power in order to handle the surge loads. This makes it more
      > expensive. A 1000W array would need a 1000W grid tied inverter, but would
      > need at least a 4kW off grid inverter to handle motor starting loads
      (pumps,
      > washer, dryer).
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Kevin L. Conlin [mailto:kconlin@...]
      > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 8:57 PM
      > To: hreg@egroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar info from WISE
      >
      >
      > Becky and Lisa, your article was interesting, accurate and informative,
      and
      > while DC homes or solar powered homes are not always practical for
      > mainstream consumers, we should not overlook specific tasks within the
      home
      > that solar is well suited for. For example, a power system dedicated to
      the
      > home computer and other sensitive electronics that may be damaged by
      spikes,
      > sags, brownouts, etc can be economically justified by avoiding expensive
      > crashes or other damage that occurs because of "dirty" utility power. I've
      > always thought that just dumping clean solar power back into the grid is
      a
      > waste of a valuable resource. regards, Kevin
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Steve Shepard <sbtdesigns@...>
      > To: <hreg@egroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 3:56 PM
      > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar info from WISE
      >
      >
      > > The only problem with a DC home is that it is totally incompatible with
      > > 99.9% of the homes on this continent. A DC home also cannot be
      intertied
      > > with the electric utility grid and requires unique hardware that is also
      > > incompatible.
      > >
      > > We don't recommend them.
      > >
      > > SBT Designs
      > > 25840 IH-10 West #1
      > > Boerne, Texas 78006
      > > 210-698-7109
      > > FAX: 210-698-7147
      > > http://www.sbtdesigns.com
      > > sbtdesigns@...
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Becky Merritt" <bmeritt@...>
      > > To: <hreg@egroups.com>
      > > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 11:26 AM
      > > Subject: [hreg] Solar info from WISE
      > >
      > >
      > > > I thought this was particularly interesting, so I'm passing it along.
      > > > Becky Merritt
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > One of the ways to reach greater efficiency is to use DC electricity
      > where
      > > it is most efficient. DC is especially efficient for motors (fans,
      > vacuums,
      > > blenders, tools...). Laptop computers, and in fact any appliance with
      one
      > of
      > > those big fat boxes that plugs into the wall, are DC, and are converting
      > > your AC power at the plug. DC also works well for lighting.
      > > >
      > > > Briefly, our homes and appliances generally use Alternating Current
      > (AC).
      > > This is because AC travels well over long distances without dropping
      > > voltage, and our generating facilities are usually far from our homes.
      PV
      > > panels create Direct Current (DC). You don't get much voltage drop,
      > because
      > > the panels are right near the point of use. However most solar systems
      > have
      > > an inverter to convert the DC to AC because our appliances are AC.
      Remote
      > > systems, such as boat or RV, will often use the current as DC without
      > > inverting it, because DC appliances are already popular in those
      markets.
      > > >
      > > > One of my partners in Emerald Resource Solutions, Cari Spring, lives
      in
      > a
      > > super-efficient off-the-grid home powered by sun and wind. The house is
      > > adobe and takes advantage of passive solar design. She has four 75-watt
      > > solar panels, a wind generator, a batch solar water heater with propane
      > > on-demand backup, and a solar heated radiant floor heating system. She
      > uses
      > > a small propane-powered refrigerator. Despite having only a 1/3 kW
      system,
      > > she and her partner have more electricity in the winter than they can
      use.
      > > (Summertime cooling loads are bigger here in Arizona than winter
      heating.)
      > > >
      > > > She has two wiring systems with receptacles. She runs the house mostly
      > on
      > > DC -- lights, fans and computer. When she wants to watch TV or listen to
      > the
      > > stereo, she turns on the inverter. This has the added benefit of having
      > the
      > > house free of electromagnetic fields most of the time. She was told that
      > DC
      > > lights were not as efficient, but found that the loss of efficiency in
      > > inverting DC to AC was equal, and she preferred to leave the inverter
      off.
      > > For more on Cari's house, I will send a PDF article attached to the next
      > > e-mail.
      > > >
      > > > Emerald Resource Solutions also has done a DC retrofit to an in-town,
      > > on-grid house. We installed one 120 watt panel on a super-efficient old
      > > adobe to assist the owners in moving off grid. Unfortunately, Annie, it
      > > wasn't as simple as a panel to a plug. It's a full system of conduit,
      > > batteries, monitors, shut-offs, etc., and took a full weekend to
      install.
      > > But the residents have fans, lights, and a car stereo they power with
      the
      > > panel.
      > > >
      > > > The closest thing I know to "plug and play" right now is the Ascension
      > > Technologies "AC panels" that have the inverter built right onto the
      > panel,
      > > so you don't have a separate component for that. I do know that at the
      > > recent brainstorms conducted by the Utility Photovoltaic Group for the
      > > Department of Energy, the idea of "plug and play" solar systems was one
      of
      > > the crucial ideas for popularizing solar. I hope the industry is paying
      > > attention.
      > > >
      > > > Lisa
      > > >
      > > > Lisa Stage
      > > > Emerald Resource Solutions
      > > > lisa@...
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Robert Johnston
      Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact fluorescents? They tend to be expensive up-front, so I d like to buy them as cheaply as possible.
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
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        Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact fluorescents?
        They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as cheaply
        as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find online.
        For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W dimmable
        spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also offer free
        shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should go this
        route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you recommend
        as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used inside
        enclosed
        glass fixtures?

        Thanks!

        Robert Johnston
        rjohnsto@...
      • Marjorie N Wood
        I think a bunch of us should get together and get a huge batch of CFs and sell them at cost to ourselves. I heard that Home Depot has them but haven t been
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
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          I think a bunch of us should get together and get a huge batch of CFs and
          sell them at cost to ourselves. I heard that Home Depot has them but
          haven't been lately. In New York, their utility made some sort of deal
          with a couple of mfrs of CFs and sold them to their utility customers for
          $1 and $2. It was part of their promo for energy efficiency.
          Marge Wood

          On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:19:19 -0600 "Robert Johnston"
          <rjohnsto@...> writes:
          > Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact
          > fluorescents?
          > They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as
          > cheaply
          > as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find
          > online.
          > For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W
          > dimmable
          > spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also
          > offer free
          > shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should
          > go this
          > route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you
          > recommend
          > as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used
          > inside
          > enclosed
          > glass fixtures?
          >
          > Thanks!
          >
          > Robert Johnston
          > rjohnsto@...
          >
          >
          >
          > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
          >
          >
          >
        • ChasMauch@aol.com
          Great idea, marge! Maybe we should get more details about the power company in NY that sold the CFs as an energy-saving promotion and approach HL&P (aka
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
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            Great idea, marge! Maybe we should get more details about the power company
            in NY that sold the CFs as an energy-saving promotion and approach HL&P (aka
            Reliant Energy or Verizon or whatever) and ask them to do the same thing. If
            they can pay $300 million for the naming rights on an arena just for
            publicity (although why a monopoly needs to advertise is beyone me) they
            should be able to do this.

            Also, I heard that the city of Austin will pay to have cars there converted
            to run on natural gas which is a lot cheaper and cleaner than gasoline and
            improves the air quality. This usually costs about $2,000. Also heard that
            you could get it done even if you are from out of town if you have a friend
            who lives in Austin. Can any of our Austin friends tell us if this is true?
            Charlie Mauch
          • Robert Johnston
            It would be nice if HL&P would have a rebate program of some kind. Incidentally, I m still looking for the best place to buy CF s. I just found an even better
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
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              It would be nice if HL&P would have a rebate program of some kind.
              Incidentally, I'm still looking for the best place to buy CF's. I
              just found an even better deal online than the one I mentioned
              before. Looks like www.energyguide.com has them really cheap. I
              can get a dimmable CF for half the cost of what RealGoods charges
              for the same thing. A 23W TechnaBright dimmable SpringLight
              (1500 lumens or close to a 100W bulb) is only $12.75. A Harmony
              20W standard CF (non-dimmable) is equivalent to a 75W incandescent
              and only costs $7.25! If you figure that during its 10,000 hr lifetime
              you would buy 10 incandescents at $0.25 each, that means the cost is
              only $4.75. You'll recover that in energy savings at $0.08/kwh in
              just 1080 hours, or probably in less than one year. The other 9000
              hours worth of savings will be gravy.

              At the www.energyguide.com website, they say that several utilities
              offer 2 for 1 instant rebates when you purchase from them. However,
              HL&P was not one of them. Perhaps this is something we could interest
              them in doing, if they don't want to do the same deal as the New York
              utility? From my calculations above, it is obvious that if they do
              a 2 for 1 instant rebate, then consumers can buy these bulbs for almost
              the cost of the equivalent lifetime incandescents. The energy savings
              will all be pure profit then--for both the consumer and the environment.

              I like the idea of HREG buying in bulk if there are enough interested
              members. I don't know if we can do any better than www.energyguide.com.
              Does anyone know of better deals?

              If we really wanted to be ambitious, we could import them. I see that
              they are mostly made in China. I looked at some China websites and see
              where they sell what looks like the same bulb as I bought labeled
              SpringLamp. They are sold wholesale in cases of 100. I have no idea
              what the markup is, but if www.energyguide.com is selling them for half
              of what RealGoods is, then perhaps we can estimate another 50% reduction
              possible if we imported? I have no idea what would be involved in
              importation, but suspect it might be more hassle than it is worth. On
              the other hand, maybe a useful fundraiser?

              Anyway, again, I'm still interested in suggestions from others as to the
              best
              places (online or offline) to buy CF's cheaply.

              Robert Johnston


              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: ChasMauch@... [mailto:ChasMauch@...]
              > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 11:10 PM
              > To: hreg@egroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
              >
              >
              > Great idea, marge! Maybe we should get more details about the
              > power company
              > in NY that sold the CFs as an energy-saving promotion and
              > approach HL&P (aka
              > Reliant Energy or Verizon or whatever) and ask them to do the
              > same thing. If
              > they can pay $300 million for the naming rights on an arena just for
              > publicity (although why a monopoly needs to advertise is
              > beyone me) they
              > should be able to do this.
              >
              > Also, I heard that the city of Austin will pay to have cars
              > there converted
              > to run on natural gas which is a lot cheaper and cleaner than
              > gasoline and
              > improves the air quality. This usually costs about $2,000.
              > Also heard that
              > you could get it done even if you are from out of town if you
              > have a friend
              > who lives in Austin. Can any of our Austin friends tell us if
              > this is true?
              > Charlie Mauch
              >
              > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
              > -------------------------~-~>
              > eLerts
              > It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
              > http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/0/_/58590/_/974696997/
              > --------------------------------------------------------------
              > -------_->
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • drocketman@juno.com
              Robert, I have a house full of compact fluorescents: three types of globes, a bullet, some sticks, spirals and floods. The highest equivalent wattage being a
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
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                Robert,
                I have a house full of compact fluorescents: three types of globes, a
                bullet, some sticks, spirals and floods. The highest equivalent wattage
                being a spiral wound at 150w equivalent output for 32w expense by Lights
                of America sold at Walmart. None that I have are dimmable. The bullets
                are in ceiling fans and some wall mounts and globes are in bathroom
                lights and hanging lamps for their aesthetic match. The floods are in
                recessed lighting. The sticks are in shaded lamps and the spirals are
                the most recent additions in covered ceiling fixtures (being the only
                ones that fit with a high enough light output for me) garage and closets.
                I put the 75w equiv bulb in place of 60 watt incandescents. The spirals
                seem to be the best deal on cost. Walmart has sold all 4 sizes
                (60/75/100/150watt equiv.) for the same price, $7.96 each. Though I did
                get a couple of them clearanced inexplicably for $5 each. My
                conservative count puts the total number of compact fluorescents in my
                house now in use at 53 bulbs. The initial installation was 28 globes and
                8 to 10 bullets about 6 to 8 years ago. This only includes the compact
                fluorescents and does not include u-tubes, circline or regular
                fluorescents. In the eight years of operation, I have replaced about 6-8
                globes, 2-3 bullets, 3 sticks, a couple of floods and one spiral. The GE
                90w equiv. sticks have been the least reliable. I have no experience and
                so no suggestion on the dimmables other than I see no need to complicate
                the design of the bulb most probably at the expense of life and
                reliability, and instead, suggest turning only part of the bulbs on
                instead of dimming all. I have recently appreciated the spirals because
                of their low cost and small size, fitting into enclosed glass fixtures
                and hidden behind standard open glass ceiling fixtures. I still rely on
                globe types as a drop in for globe type bulbs like in bathrooms and
                hanging lamps. I especially like them for the bathrooms where I have
                banks of 6, 8 and 12 globes and the low heat and increased light (60w
                equiv compared to the 40w incandescent) is really a plus. My favorite
                globe is the GE brand FLG16/E also sold by Panasonic as the Light Capsule
                EFG16LE. I don't know how available these are now since I haven't bought
                any in several years... haven't had to because none have failed. I have
                two spares still in their boxes and they are my most reliable compact
                fluorescent. They are very lightweight and compact making them more like
                the incandescent 40w they replaced. Because of this, they do not stress
                the bathroom fixture near as much as the other globe types. They are
                almost instant on, much more silent and longer life than any of the other
                globes I have used. It was typically $16 a bulb, but in my estimation,
                worth it over the others. I did get some of them for $5 each clearanced.

                Dennis

                On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:19:19 -0600 "Robert Johnston"
                <rjohnsto@...> writes:
                > Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact
                > fluorescents?
                > They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as
                > cheaply
                > as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find
                > online.
                > For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W
                > dimmable
                > spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also
                > offer free
                > shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should
                > go this
                > route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you
                > recommend
                > as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used
                > inside
                > enclosed
                > glass fixtures?
                >
                > Thanks!
                >
                > Robert Johnston
                > rjohnsto@...
                >
                >
                >
                > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                >
                >
                >
              • Jim & Kathi Syzdek
                Robert, In Houston, Home Depot has the Twisters by G.E. for around $9.00ea. They are the cheapest I have seen locally. Jim ...
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 20, 2000
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                  Robert,
                  In Houston, Home Depot has the Twisters by G.E. for around $9.00ea. They
                  are the cheapest I have seen locally.

                  Jim


                  >From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
                  >Reply-To: hreg@egroups.com
                  >To: <hreg@egroups.com>
                  >Subject: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                  >Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:19:19 -0600
                  >
                  >Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact fluorescents?
                  >They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as cheaply
                  >as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find online.
                  >For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W dimmable
                  >spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also offer
                  >free
                  >shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should go
                  >this
                  >route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you recommend
                  >as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used inside
                  >enclosed
                  >glass fixtures?
                  >
                  >Thanks!
                  >
                  >Robert Johnston
                  >rjohnsto@...
                  >
                  >

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                • Steve Stelzer
                  Robert, check out the CF s at IKEA. They may not be exactly apples to apples for the unit you are talking about. IKEA is basically subsidizing CF s because
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 20, 2000
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Robert, check out the CF's at IKEA. They may not be exactly apples to
                    apples for the unit you are talking about. IKEA is basically subsidizing
                    CF's because they are in the $5.00 range.

                    Steve Stelzer

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Robert Johnston [mailto:rjohnsto@...]
                    Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 11:41 PM
                    To: hreg@egroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents


                    It would be nice if HL&P would have a rebate program of some kind.
                    Incidentally, I'm still looking for the best place to buy CF's. I
                    just found an even better deal online than the one I mentioned
                    before. Looks like www.energyguide.com has them really cheap. I
                    can get a dimmable CF for half the cost of what RealGoods charges
                    for the same thing. A 23W TechnaBright dimmable SpringLight
                    (1500 lumens or close to a 100W bulb) is only $12.75. A Harmony
                    20W standard CF (non-dimmable) is equivalent to a 75W incandescent
                    and only costs $7.25! If you figure that during its 10,000 hr lifetime
                    you would buy 10 incandescents at $0.25 each, that means the cost is
                    only $4.75. You'll recover that in energy savings at $0.08/kwh in
                    just 1080 hours, or probably in less than one year. The other 9000
                    hours worth of savings will be gravy.

                    At the www.energyguide.com website, they say that several utilities
                    offer 2 for 1 instant rebates when you purchase from them. However,
                    HL&P was not one of them. Perhaps this is something we could interest
                    them in doing, if they don't want to do the same deal as the New York
                    utility? From my calculations above, it is obvious that if they do
                    a 2 for 1 instant rebate, then consumers can buy these bulbs for almost
                    the cost of the equivalent lifetime incandescents. The energy savings
                    will all be pure profit then--for both the consumer and the environment.

                    I like the idea of HREG buying in bulk if there are enough interested
                    members. I don't know if we can do any better than www.energyguide.com.
                    Does anyone know of better deals?

                    If we really wanted to be ambitious, we could import them. I see that
                    they are mostly made in China. I looked at some China websites and see
                    where they sell what looks like the same bulb as I bought labeled
                    SpringLamp. They are sold wholesale in cases of 100. I have no idea
                    what the markup is, but if www.energyguide.com is selling them for half
                    of what RealGoods is, then perhaps we can estimate another 50% reduction
                    possible if we imported? I have no idea what would be involved in
                    importation, but suspect it might be more hassle than it is worth. On
                    the other hand, maybe a useful fundraiser?

                    Anyway, again, I'm still interested in suggestions from others as to the
                    best
                    places (online or offline) to buy CF's cheaply.

                    Robert Johnston


                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: ChasMauch@... [mailto:ChasMauch@...]
                    > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 11:10 PM
                    > To: hreg@egroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                    >
                    >
                    > Great idea, marge! Maybe we should get more details about the
                    > power company
                    > in NY that sold the CFs as an energy-saving promotion and
                    > approach HL&P (aka
                    > Reliant Energy or Verizon or whatever) and ask them to do the
                    > same thing. If
                    > they can pay $300 million for the naming rights on an arena just for
                    > publicity (although why a monopoly needs to advertise is
                    > beyone me) they
                    > should be able to do this.
                    >
                    > Also, I heard that the city of Austin will pay to have cars
                    > there converted
                    > to run on natural gas which is a lot cheaper and cleaner than
                    > gasoline and
                    > improves the air quality. This usually costs about $2,000.
                    > Also heard that
                    > you could get it done even if you are from out of town if you
                    > have a friend
                    > who lives in Austin. Can any of our Austin friends tell us if
                    > this is true?
                    > Charlie Mauch
                    >
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                  • paul breaux
                    Please remove me from this email list. Paul ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 20, 2000
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                      Please remove me from this email list.
                      Paul


                      >From: "Jim & Kathi Syzdek" <jksyzdek@...>
                      >Reply-To: hreg@egroups.com
                      >To: hreg@egroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                      >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:59:07 CST
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                      >
                      >Robert,
                      > In Houston, Home Depot has the Twisters by G.E. for around $9.00ea.
                      >They
                      >are the cheapest I have seen locally.
                      >
                      >Jim
                      >
                      >
                      > >From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
                      > >Reply-To: hreg@egroups.com
                      > >To: <hreg@egroups.com>
                      > >Subject: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                      > >Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:19:19 -0600
                      > >
                      > >Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact fluorescents?
                      > >They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as cheaply
                      > >as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find
                      >online.
                      > >For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W
                      >dimmable
                      > >spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also offer
                      > >free
                      > >shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should go
                      > >this
                      > >route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you
                      >recommend
                      > >as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used inside
                      > >enclosed
                      > >glass fixtures?
                      > >
                      > >Thanks!
                      > >
                      > >Robert Johnston
                      > >rjohnsto@...
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
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