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RE: Solar info from WISE

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  • Chuck Wright
    As he says, Net Metering provides a nearly ideal storage mechanism for a grid-attached PV. Highly efficient and free, other than the additional cost of an
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 17, 2000
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      As he says, Net Metering provides a nearly ideal storage mechanism
      for a grid-attached PV. Highly efficient and free, other than the
      additional cost of an inverter that can handle this. If you have
      extra power, you pump it into the grid and your meter runs backwards.
      Effectively, the utility provides you, for no charge, a place to put your
      surplus, to take it back whenever you want.

      I attended the TREIA meeting yesterday in Austin, where there
      were discussions of the new utility deregulation legislation that
      is in progress.

      John Hoffner spoke about the future of Net Metering. As things
      stand, it looks like Net Metering could go away. The problem is
      that with the new system, the company that controls the lines
      is separate from the company that generates power. So, it is
      unclear who you would be selling power to.

      The utilities mostly dislike net metering, saying they are providing
      free storage for people. They are right. Some utilities favor having
      2 ratcheted meters, one for the electricity coming in, and one for the
      electricity going out. There would doubtless be different rates for
      the two.

      It should be pointed out that the times of PV's peak output
      in the summer correspond to times of peak demand, when the
      value of electricity is actually above average. This effect should
      to some degree offset the "free" storage service that the utility
      provides.

      The worst of all possibilities would be that you would have a single
      meter that would be ratcheted to only run forward. You might
      generate a surplus, but it would just go to onto the grid without
      compensation. At this point, the grid is worthless as a storage device
      (except for altruistic motives).

      John is trying to formulate a TREIA position/strategy on net
      metering. I think that this is a rather critical time. If anyone has
      good ideas or creative ways of looking at the problem, now would
      be a good time to speak up.

      > Message: 1
      > Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:25:05 -0600
      > From: "Ewert, Mike" <mike.ewert@...>
      > Subject: RE: Solar info from WISE
      >
      > Kevin, I hadn't heard this argument against utility power before, so I asked
      > some colleagues who work for Aerovironment what they thought. They build
      > solar motor controllers and worked on the GM electric car, among other
      > things. Here is what one said.
      >

      <snip>

      >
      > PV power:
      >
      > By far, the most cost and energy efficient way to use solar electric energy
      > when a grid is available is to have the PV tied to the grid. This
      > eliminates batteries (cost, maintenance, inefficiency) and off grid
      > inverters (large size, expensive, less efficient). When the PV is tied to
      > the customer's side of the meter, they get the benefit of their investment.
      > The excess and then sell the rest back to the utility, at night, power is
      > bought from the utility. This concept is net metering, where the utility
      > buys power from the customer at the same price it sells to the customer
      > (this only works if the customer is a net user of energy or breaks even, the
      > utility will not allow net surplus of energy under net metering).

      --
      Chuck Wright
      http://www.chuck-wright.com
    • Kevin L. Conlin
      Hi Mike, Thanks for your response, the points are accurate, but I don t agree with their position. My point was that if you are running sensitive loads such
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 17, 2000
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        Hi Mike, Thanks for your response, the points are accurate, but I don't
        agree with their position. My point was that if you are running sensitive
        loads such as computers, phone systems, etc you will have to invest in
        power conditioning equipment anyway, such as surge protectors and UPS
        modules, which contain batteries and inverters. If you limit the use to
        electronics, you do not need surge capability. And while an AC-UPS system
        will be cheaper if you simply use the grid to charge the batteries, a solar
        charged one will utilize the clean solar power tp provide clean AC power. I
        don't agree that solar in not inherently clean, it is. What makes it dirty
        is sending it through the typically cheap solar voltage regulators which,
        because of poor quality and swithcing frequencies, create electronic noise
        that can disturb sensitive electronics. We have even had problems with the
        better regulators such as Morningstar.

        As for inverter sizing, keep in mind that with a battery charging system,
        the inverter has to be sized to the load, not the PV array, and although
        batteries have their limitations and drawbacks, they are still the best way
        to back-up critical loads. As you know, I don't recommend PV when you have a
        grid connect anyway, but stand by my position that by utilizing solar for
        critical and sensitive loads is just as economic as dumping it back into the
        grid, because you are in effect net metering by using it for a dedicated
        purpose. The difference is somewhat philosophical, but I think solar is
        more cost effective when used in this fashion, and people would be more
        willing to use it for small systems such as UPS rather than trying to power
        their home or offset their utility bills with it. I have one customer who
        has backed up his AC sites for years with a small solar system, and he
        reports that they are the most reliable sites in his network (he has
        thousands). The Solar/AC sites are much more reliable than either AC alone
        of stand alone solar. Thanks for an interesting perspective and dialogue.
        Best regards, Kevin

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Ewert, Mike <mike.ewert@...>
        To: <hreg@egroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 9:25 PM
        Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar info from WISE


        > Kevin, I hadn't heard this argument against utility power before, so I
        asked
        > some colleagues who work for Aerovironment what they thought. They build
        > solar motor controllers and worked on the GM electric car, among other
        > things. Here is what one said.
        >
        > Personally, I think there are cases when you should remain DC too. I'd
        like
        > to see more DC appliances mass produced so they don't cost twice as much
        as
        > AC counterparts.
        >
        ____________________________________________________________________________
        > __________
        > This gentleman is talking about two things, PV power and clean power.
        >
        > PV power:
        >
        > By far, the most cost and energy efficient way to use solar electric
        energy
        > when a grid is available is to have the PV tied to the grid. This
        > eliminates batteries (cost, maintenance, inefficiency) and off grid
        > inverters (large size, expensive, less efficient). When the PV is tied to
        > the customer's side of the meter, they get the benefit of their
        investment.
        > The excess and then sell the rest back to the utility, at night, power is
        > bought from the utility. This concept is net metering, where the utility
        > buys power from the customer at the same price it sells to the customer
        > (this only works if the customer is a net user of energy or breaks even,
        the
        > utility will not allow net surplus of energy under net metering).
        >
        > Clean Power
        >
        > PV inherently isn't clean by itself, it takes a stable source (batteries)
        > and a high quality inverter. The cases that need very clean power
        (cleaner
        > than the grid) are very few. If you have one of these situations, you
        don't
        > need PV, you can go to battery backed, off grid system (UPS) that powers
        the
        > critical loads. The batteries can be charged by the grid and/or PV (or
        > other supply, diesel generator). If charging these with PV is desired,
        then
        > undersize the PV and use the grid for the rest of the energy. This will
        be
        > much more cost effective than sizing the PV for worst case which greatly
        > under utilizes the PV the rest of the time. Another way to go is to use
        an
        > on/off grid controller that allows the PV to charge the batteries, when
        they
        > are fully charged, then the excess power goes to the grid (in this case
        the
        > array can be oversized). The off grid inverter (vs. on grid) is usually
        > less expensive per watt, but you need to size it significantly larger than
        > your array power in order to handle the surge loads. This makes it more
        > expensive. A 1000W array would need a 1000W grid tied inverter, but would
        > need at least a 4kW off grid inverter to handle motor starting loads
        (pumps,
        > washer, dryer).
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Kevin L. Conlin [mailto:kconlin@...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 8:57 PM
        > To: hreg@egroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar info from WISE
        >
        >
        > Becky and Lisa, your article was interesting, accurate and informative,
        and
        > while DC homes or solar powered homes are not always practical for
        > mainstream consumers, we should not overlook specific tasks within the
        home
        > that solar is well suited for. For example, a power system dedicated to
        the
        > home computer and other sensitive electronics that may be damaged by
        spikes,
        > sags, brownouts, etc can be economically justified by avoiding expensive
        > crashes or other damage that occurs because of "dirty" utility power. I've
        > always thought that just dumping clean solar power back into the grid is
        a
        > waste of a valuable resource. regards, Kevin
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Steve Shepard <sbtdesigns@...>
        > To: <hreg@egroups.com>
        > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 3:56 PM
        > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar info from WISE
        >
        >
        > > The only problem with a DC home is that it is totally incompatible with
        > > 99.9% of the homes on this continent. A DC home also cannot be
        intertied
        > > with the electric utility grid and requires unique hardware that is also
        > > incompatible.
        > >
        > > We don't recommend them.
        > >
        > > SBT Designs
        > > 25840 IH-10 West #1
        > > Boerne, Texas 78006
        > > 210-698-7109
        > > FAX: 210-698-7147
        > > http://www.sbtdesigns.com
        > > sbtdesigns@...
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "Becky Merritt" <bmeritt@...>
        > > To: <hreg@egroups.com>
        > > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 11:26 AM
        > > Subject: [hreg] Solar info from WISE
        > >
        > >
        > > > I thought this was particularly interesting, so I'm passing it along.
        > > > Becky Merritt
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > One of the ways to reach greater efficiency is to use DC electricity
        > where
        > > it is most efficient. DC is especially efficient for motors (fans,
        > vacuums,
        > > blenders, tools...). Laptop computers, and in fact any appliance with
        one
        > of
        > > those big fat boxes that plugs into the wall, are DC, and are converting
        > > your AC power at the plug. DC also works well for lighting.
        > > >
        > > > Briefly, our homes and appliances generally use Alternating Current
        > (AC).
        > > This is because AC travels well over long distances without dropping
        > > voltage, and our generating facilities are usually far from our homes.
        PV
        > > panels create Direct Current (DC). You don't get much voltage drop,
        > because
        > > the panels are right near the point of use. However most solar systems
        > have
        > > an inverter to convert the DC to AC because our appliances are AC.
        Remote
        > > systems, such as boat or RV, will often use the current as DC without
        > > inverting it, because DC appliances are already popular in those
        markets.
        > > >
        > > > One of my partners in Emerald Resource Solutions, Cari Spring, lives
        in
        > a
        > > super-efficient off-the-grid home powered by sun and wind. The house is
        > > adobe and takes advantage of passive solar design. She has four 75-watt
        > > solar panels, a wind generator, a batch solar water heater with propane
        > > on-demand backup, and a solar heated radiant floor heating system. She
        > uses
        > > a small propane-powered refrigerator. Despite having only a 1/3 kW
        system,
        > > she and her partner have more electricity in the winter than they can
        use.
        > > (Summertime cooling loads are bigger here in Arizona than winter
        heating.)
        > > >
        > > > She has two wiring systems with receptacles. She runs the house mostly
        > on
        > > DC -- lights, fans and computer. When she wants to watch TV or listen to
        > the
        > > stereo, she turns on the inverter. This has the added benefit of having
        > the
        > > house free of electromagnetic fields most of the time. She was told that
        > DC
        > > lights were not as efficient, but found that the loss of efficiency in
        > > inverting DC to AC was equal, and she preferred to leave the inverter
        off.
        > > For more on Cari's house, I will send a PDF article attached to the next
        > > e-mail.
        > > >
        > > > Emerald Resource Solutions also has done a DC retrofit to an in-town,
        > > on-grid house. We installed one 120 watt panel on a super-efficient old
        > > adobe to assist the owners in moving off grid. Unfortunately, Annie, it
        > > wasn't as simple as a panel to a plug. It's a full system of conduit,
        > > batteries, monitors, shut-offs, etc., and took a full weekend to
        install.
        > > But the residents have fans, lights, and a car stereo they power with
        the
        > > panel.
        > > >
        > > > The closest thing I know to "plug and play" right now is the Ascension
        > > Technologies "AC panels" that have the inverter built right onto the
        > panel,
        > > so you don't have a separate component for that. I do know that at the
        > > recent brainstorms conducted by the Utility Photovoltaic Group for the
        > > Department of Energy, the idea of "plug and play" solar systems was one
        of
        > > the crucial ideas for popularizing solar. I hope the industry is paying
        > > attention.
        > > >
        > > > Lisa
        > > >
        > > > Lisa Stage
        > > > Emerald Resource Solutions
        > > > lisa@...
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Robert Johnston
        Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact fluorescents? They tend to be expensive up-front, so I d like to buy them as cheaply as possible.
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
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          Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact fluorescents?
          They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as cheaply
          as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find online.
          For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W dimmable
          spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also offer free
          shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should go this
          route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you recommend
          as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used inside
          enclosed
          glass fixtures?

          Thanks!

          Robert Johnston
          rjohnsto@...
        • Marjorie N Wood
          I think a bunch of us should get together and get a huge batch of CFs and sell them at cost to ourselves. I heard that Home Depot has them but haven t been
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
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            I think a bunch of us should get together and get a huge batch of CFs and
            sell them at cost to ourselves. I heard that Home Depot has them but
            haven't been lately. In New York, their utility made some sort of deal
            with a couple of mfrs of CFs and sold them to their utility customers for
            $1 and $2. It was part of their promo for energy efficiency.
            Marge Wood

            On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:19:19 -0600 "Robert Johnston"
            <rjohnsto@...> writes:
            > Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact
            > fluorescents?
            > They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as
            > cheaply
            > as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find
            > online.
            > For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W
            > dimmable
            > spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also
            > offer free
            > shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should
            > go this
            > route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you
            > recommend
            > as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used
            > inside
            > enclosed
            > glass fixtures?
            >
            > Thanks!
            >
            > Robert Johnston
            > rjohnsto@...
            >
            >
            >
            > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
            >
            >
            >
          • ChasMauch@aol.com
            Great idea, marge! Maybe we should get more details about the power company in NY that sold the CFs as an energy-saving promotion and approach HL&P (aka
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
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              Great idea, marge! Maybe we should get more details about the power company
              in NY that sold the CFs as an energy-saving promotion and approach HL&P (aka
              Reliant Energy or Verizon or whatever) and ask them to do the same thing. If
              they can pay $300 million for the naming rights on an arena just for
              publicity (although why a monopoly needs to advertise is beyone me) they
              should be able to do this.

              Also, I heard that the city of Austin will pay to have cars there converted
              to run on natural gas which is a lot cheaper and cleaner than gasoline and
              improves the air quality. This usually costs about $2,000. Also heard that
              you could get it done even if you are from out of town if you have a friend
              who lives in Austin. Can any of our Austin friends tell us if this is true?
              Charlie Mauch
            • Robert Johnston
              It would be nice if HL&P would have a rebate program of some kind. Incidentally, I m still looking for the best place to buy CF s. I just found an even better
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
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                It would be nice if HL&P would have a rebate program of some kind.
                Incidentally, I'm still looking for the best place to buy CF's. I
                just found an even better deal online than the one I mentioned
                before. Looks like www.energyguide.com has them really cheap. I
                can get a dimmable CF for half the cost of what RealGoods charges
                for the same thing. A 23W TechnaBright dimmable SpringLight
                (1500 lumens or close to a 100W bulb) is only $12.75. A Harmony
                20W standard CF (non-dimmable) is equivalent to a 75W incandescent
                and only costs $7.25! If you figure that during its 10,000 hr lifetime
                you would buy 10 incandescents at $0.25 each, that means the cost is
                only $4.75. You'll recover that in energy savings at $0.08/kwh in
                just 1080 hours, or probably in less than one year. The other 9000
                hours worth of savings will be gravy.

                At the www.energyguide.com website, they say that several utilities
                offer 2 for 1 instant rebates when you purchase from them. However,
                HL&P was not one of them. Perhaps this is something we could interest
                them in doing, if they don't want to do the same deal as the New York
                utility? From my calculations above, it is obvious that if they do
                a 2 for 1 instant rebate, then consumers can buy these bulbs for almost
                the cost of the equivalent lifetime incandescents. The energy savings
                will all be pure profit then--for both the consumer and the environment.

                I like the idea of HREG buying in bulk if there are enough interested
                members. I don't know if we can do any better than www.energyguide.com.
                Does anyone know of better deals?

                If we really wanted to be ambitious, we could import them. I see that
                they are mostly made in China. I looked at some China websites and see
                where they sell what looks like the same bulb as I bought labeled
                SpringLamp. They are sold wholesale in cases of 100. I have no idea
                what the markup is, but if www.energyguide.com is selling them for half
                of what RealGoods is, then perhaps we can estimate another 50% reduction
                possible if we imported? I have no idea what would be involved in
                importation, but suspect it might be more hassle than it is worth. On
                the other hand, maybe a useful fundraiser?

                Anyway, again, I'm still interested in suggestions from others as to the
                best
                places (online or offline) to buy CF's cheaply.

                Robert Johnston


                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: ChasMauch@... [mailto:ChasMauch@...]
                > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 11:10 PM
                > To: hreg@egroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                >
                >
                > Great idea, marge! Maybe we should get more details about the
                > power company
                > in NY that sold the CFs as an energy-saving promotion and
                > approach HL&P (aka
                > Reliant Energy or Verizon or whatever) and ask them to do the
                > same thing. If
                > they can pay $300 million for the naming rights on an arena just for
                > publicity (although why a monopoly needs to advertise is
                > beyone me) they
                > should be able to do this.
                >
                > Also, I heard that the city of Austin will pay to have cars
                > there converted
                > to run on natural gas which is a lot cheaper and cleaner than
                > gasoline and
                > improves the air quality. This usually costs about $2,000.
                > Also heard that
                > you could get it done even if you are from out of town if you
                > have a friend
                > who lives in Austin. Can any of our Austin friends tell us if
                > this is true?
                > Charlie Mauch
                >
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                > -------_->
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • drocketman@juno.com
                Robert, I have a house full of compact fluorescents: three types of globes, a bullet, some sticks, spirals and floods. The highest equivalent wattage being a
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
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                  Robert,
                  I have a house full of compact fluorescents: three types of globes, a
                  bullet, some sticks, spirals and floods. The highest equivalent wattage
                  being a spiral wound at 150w equivalent output for 32w expense by Lights
                  of America sold at Walmart. None that I have are dimmable. The bullets
                  are in ceiling fans and some wall mounts and globes are in bathroom
                  lights and hanging lamps for their aesthetic match. The floods are in
                  recessed lighting. The sticks are in shaded lamps and the spirals are
                  the most recent additions in covered ceiling fixtures (being the only
                  ones that fit with a high enough light output for me) garage and closets.
                  I put the 75w equiv bulb in place of 60 watt incandescents. The spirals
                  seem to be the best deal on cost. Walmart has sold all 4 sizes
                  (60/75/100/150watt equiv.) for the same price, $7.96 each. Though I did
                  get a couple of them clearanced inexplicably for $5 each. My
                  conservative count puts the total number of compact fluorescents in my
                  house now in use at 53 bulbs. The initial installation was 28 globes and
                  8 to 10 bullets about 6 to 8 years ago. This only includes the compact
                  fluorescents and does not include u-tubes, circline or regular
                  fluorescents. In the eight years of operation, I have replaced about 6-8
                  globes, 2-3 bullets, 3 sticks, a couple of floods and one spiral. The GE
                  90w equiv. sticks have been the least reliable. I have no experience and
                  so no suggestion on the dimmables other than I see no need to complicate
                  the design of the bulb most probably at the expense of life and
                  reliability, and instead, suggest turning only part of the bulbs on
                  instead of dimming all. I have recently appreciated the spirals because
                  of their low cost and small size, fitting into enclosed glass fixtures
                  and hidden behind standard open glass ceiling fixtures. I still rely on
                  globe types as a drop in for globe type bulbs like in bathrooms and
                  hanging lamps. I especially like them for the bathrooms where I have
                  banks of 6, 8 and 12 globes and the low heat and increased light (60w
                  equiv compared to the 40w incandescent) is really a plus. My favorite
                  globe is the GE brand FLG16/E also sold by Panasonic as the Light Capsule
                  EFG16LE. I don't know how available these are now since I haven't bought
                  any in several years... haven't had to because none have failed. I have
                  two spares still in their boxes and they are my most reliable compact
                  fluorescent. They are very lightweight and compact making them more like
                  the incandescent 40w they replaced. Because of this, they do not stress
                  the bathroom fixture near as much as the other globe types. They are
                  almost instant on, much more silent and longer life than any of the other
                  globes I have used. It was typically $16 a bulb, but in my estimation,
                  worth it over the others. I did get some of them for $5 each clearanced.

                  Dennis

                  On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:19:19 -0600 "Robert Johnston"
                  <rjohnsto@...> writes:
                  > Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact
                  > fluorescents?
                  > They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as
                  > cheaply
                  > as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find
                  > online.
                  > For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W
                  > dimmable
                  > spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also
                  > offer free
                  > shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should
                  > go this
                  > route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you
                  > recommend
                  > as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used
                  > inside
                  > enclosed
                  > glass fixtures?
                  >
                  > Thanks!
                  >
                  > Robert Johnston
                  > rjohnsto@...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Jim & Kathi Syzdek
                  Robert, In Houston, Home Depot has the Twisters by G.E. for around $9.00ea. They are the cheapest I have seen locally. Jim ...
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 20, 2000
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                    Robert,
                    In Houston, Home Depot has the Twisters by G.E. for around $9.00ea. They
                    are the cheapest I have seen locally.

                    Jim


                    >From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
                    >Reply-To: hreg@egroups.com
                    >To: <hreg@egroups.com>
                    >Subject: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                    >Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:19:19 -0600
                    >
                    >Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact fluorescents?
                    >They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as cheaply
                    >as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find online.
                    >For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W dimmable
                    >spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also offer
                    >free
                    >shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should go
                    >this
                    >route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you recommend
                    >as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used inside
                    >enclosed
                    >glass fixtures?
                    >
                    >Thanks!
                    >
                    >Robert Johnston
                    >rjohnsto@...
                    >
                    >

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                  • Steve Stelzer
                    Robert, check out the CF s at IKEA. They may not be exactly apples to apples for the unit you are talking about. IKEA is basically subsidizing CF s because
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 20, 2000
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                      Robert, check out the CF's at IKEA. They may not be exactly apples to
                      apples for the unit you are talking about. IKEA is basically subsidizing
                      CF's because they are in the $5.00 range.

                      Steve Stelzer

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Robert Johnston [mailto:rjohnsto@...]
                      Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 11:41 PM
                      To: hreg@egroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents


                      It would be nice if HL&P would have a rebate program of some kind.
                      Incidentally, I'm still looking for the best place to buy CF's. I
                      just found an even better deal online than the one I mentioned
                      before. Looks like www.energyguide.com has them really cheap. I
                      can get a dimmable CF for half the cost of what RealGoods charges
                      for the same thing. A 23W TechnaBright dimmable SpringLight
                      (1500 lumens or close to a 100W bulb) is only $12.75. A Harmony
                      20W standard CF (non-dimmable) is equivalent to a 75W incandescent
                      and only costs $7.25! If you figure that during its 10,000 hr lifetime
                      you would buy 10 incandescents at $0.25 each, that means the cost is
                      only $4.75. You'll recover that in energy savings at $0.08/kwh in
                      just 1080 hours, or probably in less than one year. The other 9000
                      hours worth of savings will be gravy.

                      At the www.energyguide.com website, they say that several utilities
                      offer 2 for 1 instant rebates when you purchase from them. However,
                      HL&P was not one of them. Perhaps this is something we could interest
                      them in doing, if they don't want to do the same deal as the New York
                      utility? From my calculations above, it is obvious that if they do
                      a 2 for 1 instant rebate, then consumers can buy these bulbs for almost
                      the cost of the equivalent lifetime incandescents. The energy savings
                      will all be pure profit then--for both the consumer and the environment.

                      I like the idea of HREG buying in bulk if there are enough interested
                      members. I don't know if we can do any better than www.energyguide.com.
                      Does anyone know of better deals?

                      If we really wanted to be ambitious, we could import them. I see that
                      they are mostly made in China. I looked at some China websites and see
                      where they sell what looks like the same bulb as I bought labeled
                      SpringLamp. They are sold wholesale in cases of 100. I have no idea
                      what the markup is, but if www.energyguide.com is selling them for half
                      of what RealGoods is, then perhaps we can estimate another 50% reduction
                      possible if we imported? I have no idea what would be involved in
                      importation, but suspect it might be more hassle than it is worth. On
                      the other hand, maybe a useful fundraiser?

                      Anyway, again, I'm still interested in suggestions from others as to the
                      best
                      places (online or offline) to buy CF's cheaply.

                      Robert Johnston


                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: ChasMauch@... [mailto:ChasMauch@...]
                      > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 11:10 PM
                      > To: hreg@egroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                      >
                      >
                      > Great idea, marge! Maybe we should get more details about the
                      > power company
                      > in NY that sold the CFs as an energy-saving promotion and
                      > approach HL&P (aka
                      > Reliant Energy or Verizon or whatever) and ask them to do the
                      > same thing. If
                      > they can pay $300 million for the naming rights on an arena just for
                      > publicity (although why a monopoly needs to advertise is
                      > beyone me) they
                      > should be able to do this.
                      >
                      > Also, I heard that the city of Austin will pay to have cars
                      > there converted
                      > to run on natural gas which is a lot cheaper and cleaner than
                      > gasoline and
                      > improves the air quality. This usually costs about $2,000.
                      > Also heard that
                      > you could get it done even if you are from out of town if you
                      > have a friend
                      > who lives in Austin. Can any of our Austin friends tell us if
                      > this is true?
                      > Charlie Mauch
                      >
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                      >
                      >
                    • paul breaux
                      Please remove me from this email list. Paul ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 20, 2000
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                        Please remove me from this email list.
                        Paul


                        >From: "Jim & Kathi Syzdek" <jksyzdek@...>
                        >Reply-To: hreg@egroups.com
                        >To: hreg@egroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                        >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:59:07 CST
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                        >
                        >Robert,
                        > In Houston, Home Depot has the Twisters by G.E. for around $9.00ea.
                        >They
                        >are the cheapest I have seen locally.
                        >
                        >Jim
                        >
                        >
                        > >From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
                        > >Reply-To: hreg@egroups.com
                        > >To: <hreg@egroups.com>
                        > >Subject: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                        > >Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:19:19 -0600
                        > >
                        > >Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact fluorescents?
                        > >They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as cheaply
                        > >as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find
                        >online.
                        > >For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W
                        >dimmable
                        > >spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also offer
                        > >free
                        > >shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should go
                        > >this
                        > >route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you
                        >recommend
                        > >as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used inside
                        > >enclosed
                        > >glass fixtures?
                        > >
                        > >Thanks!
                        > >
                        > >Robert Johnston
                        > >rjohnsto@...
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
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