Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [hreg] Solar info from WISE

Expand Messages
  • Ewert, Mike
    Kevin, I hadn t heard this argument against utility power before, so I asked some colleagues who work for Aerovironment what they thought. They build solar
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 16, 1999
      Kevin, I hadn't heard this argument against utility power before, so I asked
      some colleagues who work for Aerovironment what they thought. They build
      solar motor controllers and worked on the GM electric car, among other
      things. Here is what one said.

      Personally, I think there are cases when you should remain DC too. I'd like
      to see more DC appliances mass produced so they don't cost twice as much as
      AC counterparts.
      ____________________________________________________________________________
      __________
      This gentleman is talking about two things, PV power and clean power.

      PV power:

      By far, the most cost and energy efficient way to use solar electric energy
      when a grid is available is to have the PV tied to the grid. This
      eliminates batteries (cost, maintenance, inefficiency) and off grid
      inverters (large size, expensive, less efficient). When the PV is tied to
      the customer's side of the meter, they get the benefit of their investment.
      The excess and then sell the rest back to the utility, at night, power is
      bought from the utility. This concept is net metering, where the utility
      buys power from the customer at the same price it sells to the customer
      (this only works if the customer is a net user of energy or breaks even, the
      utility will not allow net surplus of energy under net metering).

      Clean Power

      PV inherently isn't clean by itself, it takes a stable source (batteries)
      and a high quality inverter. The cases that need very clean power (cleaner
      than the grid) are very few. If you have one of these situations, you don't
      need PV, you can go to battery backed, off grid system (UPS) that powers the
      critical loads. The batteries can be charged by the grid and/or PV (or
      other supply, diesel generator). If charging these with PV is desired, then
      undersize the PV and use the grid for the rest of the energy. This will be
      much more cost effective than sizing the PV for worst case which greatly
      under utilizes the PV the rest of the time. Another way to go is to use an
      on/off grid controller that allows the PV to charge the batteries, when they
      are fully charged, then the excess power goes to the grid (in this case the
      array can be oversized). The off grid inverter (vs. on grid) is usually
      less expensive per watt, but you need to size it significantly larger than
      your array power in order to handle the surge loads. This makes it more
      expensive. A 1000W array would need a 1000W grid tied inverter, but would
      need at least a 4kW off grid inverter to handle motor starting loads (pumps,
      washer, dryer).

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Kevin L. Conlin [mailto:kconlin@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 8:57 PM
      To: hreg@egroups.com
      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar info from WISE


      Becky and Lisa, your article was interesting, accurate and informative, and
      while DC homes or solar powered homes are not always practical for
      mainstream consumers, we should not overlook specific tasks within the home
      that solar is well suited for. For example, a power system dedicated to the
      home computer and other sensitive electronics that may be damaged by spikes,
      sags, brownouts, etc can be economically justified by avoiding expensive
      crashes or other damage that occurs because of "dirty" utility power. I've
      always thought that just dumping clean solar power back into the grid is a
      waste of a valuable resource. regards, Kevin

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Steve Shepard <sbtdesigns@...>
      To: <hreg@egroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 3:56 PM
      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar info from WISE


      > The only problem with a DC home is that it is totally incompatible with
      > 99.9% of the homes on this continent. A DC home also cannot be intertied
      > with the electric utility grid and requires unique hardware that is also
      > incompatible.
      >
      > We don't recommend them.
      >
      > SBT Designs
      > 25840 IH-10 West #1
      > Boerne, Texas 78006
      > 210-698-7109
      > FAX: 210-698-7147
      > http://www.sbtdesigns.com
      > sbtdesigns@...
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Becky Merritt" <bmeritt@...>
      > To: <hreg@egroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 11:26 AM
      > Subject: [hreg] Solar info from WISE
      >
      >
      > > I thought this was particularly interesting, so I'm passing it along.
      > > Becky Merritt
      > >
      > >
      > > One of the ways to reach greater efficiency is to use DC electricity
      where
      > it is most efficient. DC is especially efficient for motors (fans,
      vacuums,
      > blenders, tools...). Laptop computers, and in fact any appliance with one
      of
      > those big fat boxes that plugs into the wall, are DC, and are converting
      > your AC power at the plug. DC also works well for lighting.
      > >
      > > Briefly, our homes and appliances generally use Alternating Current
      (AC).
      > This is because AC travels well over long distances without dropping
      > voltage, and our generating facilities are usually far from our homes. PV
      > panels create Direct Current (DC). You don't get much voltage drop,
      because
      > the panels are right near the point of use. However most solar systems
      have
      > an inverter to convert the DC to AC because our appliances are AC. Remote
      > systems, such as boat or RV, will often use the current as DC without
      > inverting it, because DC appliances are already popular in those markets.
      > >
      > > One of my partners in Emerald Resource Solutions, Cari Spring, lives in
      a
      > super-efficient off-the-grid home powered by sun and wind. The house is
      > adobe and takes advantage of passive solar design. She has four 75-watt
      > solar panels, a wind generator, a batch solar water heater with propane
      > on-demand backup, and a solar heated radiant floor heating system. She
      uses
      > a small propane-powered refrigerator. Despite having only a 1/3 kW system,
      > she and her partner have more electricity in the winter than they can use.
      > (Summertime cooling loads are bigger here in Arizona than winter heating.)
      > >
      > > She has two wiring systems with receptacles. She runs the house mostly
      on
      > DC -- lights, fans and computer. When she wants to watch TV or listen to
      the
      > stereo, she turns on the inverter. This has the added benefit of having
      the
      > house free of electromagnetic fields most of the time. She was told that
      DC
      > lights were not as efficient, but found that the loss of efficiency in
      > inverting DC to AC was equal, and she preferred to leave the inverter off.
      > For more on Cari's house, I will send a PDF article attached to the next
      > e-mail.
      > >
      > > Emerald Resource Solutions also has done a DC retrofit to an in-town,
      > on-grid house. We installed one 120 watt panel on a super-efficient old
      > adobe to assist the owners in moving off grid. Unfortunately, Annie, it
      > wasn't as simple as a panel to a plug. It's a full system of conduit,
      > batteries, monitors, shut-offs, etc., and took a full weekend to install.
      > But the residents have fans, lights, and a car stereo they power with the
      > panel.
      > >
      > > The closest thing I know to "plug and play" right now is the Ascension
      > Technologies "AC panels" that have the inverter built right onto the
      panel,
      > so you don't have a separate component for that. I do know that at the
      > recent brainstorms conducted by the Utility Photovoltaic Group for the
      > Department of Energy, the idea of "plug and play" solar systems was one of
      > the crucial ideas for popularizing solar. I hope the industry is paying
      > attention.
      > >
      > > Lisa
      > >
      > > Lisa Stage
      > > Emerald Resource Solutions
      > > lisa@...
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Becky Merritt
      I thought this was particularly interesting, so I m passing it along. Becky Merritt One of the ways to reach greater efficiency is to use DC electricity where
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 7, 2000
        I thought this was particularly interesting, so I'm passing it along.
        Becky Merritt


        One of the ways to reach greater efficiency is to use DC electricity where it is most efficient. DC is especially efficient for motors (fans, vacuums, blenders, tools...). Laptop computers, and in fact any appliance with one of those big fat boxes that plugs into the wall, are DC, and are converting your AC power at the plug. DC also works well for lighting.

        Briefly, our homes and appliances generally use Alternating Current (AC). This is because AC travels well over long distances without dropping voltage, and our generating facilities are usually far from our homes. PV panels create Direct Current (DC). You don't get much voltage drop, because the panels are right near the point of use. However most solar systems have an inverter to convert the DC to AC because our appliances are AC. Remote systems, such as boat or RV, will often use the current as DC without inverting it, because DC appliances are already popular in those markets.

        One of my partners in Emerald Resource Solutions, Cari Spring, lives in a super-efficient off-the-grid home powered by sun and wind. The house is adobe and takes advantage of passive solar design. She has four 75-watt solar panels, a wind generator, a batch solar water heater with propane on-demand backup, and a solar heated radiant floor heating system. She uses a small propane-powered refrigerator. Despite having only a 1/3 kW system, she and her partner have more electricity in the winter than they can use. (Summertime cooling loads are bigger here in Arizona than winter heating.)

        She has two wiring systems with receptacles. She runs the house mostly on DC -- lights, fans and computer. When she wants to watch TV or listen to the stereo, she turns on the inverter. This has the added benefit of having the house free of electromagnetic fields most of the time. She was told that DC lights were not as efficient, but found that the loss of efficiency in inverting DC to AC was equal, and she preferred to leave the inverter off. For more on Cari's house, I will send a PDF article attached to the next e-mail.

        Emerald Resource Solutions also has done a DC retrofit to an in-town, on-grid house. We installed one 120 watt panel on a super-efficient old adobe to assist the owners in moving off grid. Unfortunately, Annie, it wasn't as simple as a panel to a plug. It's a full system of conduit, batteries, monitors, shut-offs, etc., and took a full weekend to install. But the residents have fans, lights, and a car stereo they power with the panel.

        The closest thing I know to "plug and play" right now is the Ascension Technologies "AC panels" that have the inverter built right onto the panel, so you don't have a separate component for that. I do know that at the recent brainstorms conducted by the Utility Photovoltaic Group for the Department of Energy, the idea of "plug and play" solar systems was one of the crucial ideas for popularizing solar. I hope the industry is paying attention.

        Lisa

        Lisa Stage
        Emerald Resource Solutions
        lisa@...
      • Steve Shepard
        The only problem with a DC home is that it is totally incompatible with 99.9% of the homes on this continent. A DC home also cannot be intertied with the
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 7, 2000
          The only problem with a DC home is that it is totally incompatible with
          99.9% of the homes on this continent. A DC home also cannot be intertied
          with the electric utility grid and requires unique hardware that is also
          incompatible.

          We don't recommend them.

          SBT Designs
          25840 IH-10 West #1
          Boerne, Texas 78006
          210-698-7109
          FAX: 210-698-7147
          http://www.sbtdesigns.com
          sbtdesigns@...
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Becky Merritt" <bmeritt@...>
          To: <hreg@egroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 11:26 AM
          Subject: [hreg] Solar info from WISE


          > I thought this was particularly interesting, so I'm passing it along.
          > Becky Merritt
          >
          >
          > One of the ways to reach greater efficiency is to use DC electricity where
          it is most efficient. DC is especially efficient for motors (fans, vacuums,
          blenders, tools...). Laptop computers, and in fact any appliance with one of
          those big fat boxes that plugs into the wall, are DC, and are converting
          your AC power at the plug. DC also works well for lighting.
          >
          > Briefly, our homes and appliances generally use Alternating Current (AC).
          This is because AC travels well over long distances without dropping
          voltage, and our generating facilities are usually far from our homes. PV
          panels create Direct Current (DC). You don't get much voltage drop, because
          the panels are right near the point of use. However most solar systems have
          an inverter to convert the DC to AC because our appliances are AC. Remote
          systems, such as boat or RV, will often use the current as DC without
          inverting it, because DC appliances are already popular in those markets.
          >
          > One of my partners in Emerald Resource Solutions, Cari Spring, lives in a
          super-efficient off-the-grid home powered by sun and wind. The house is
          adobe and takes advantage of passive solar design. She has four 75-watt
          solar panels, a wind generator, a batch solar water heater with propane
          on-demand backup, and a solar heated radiant floor heating system. She uses
          a small propane-powered refrigerator. Despite having only a 1/3 kW system,
          she and her partner have more electricity in the winter than they can use.
          (Summertime cooling loads are bigger here in Arizona than winter heating.)
          >
          > She has two wiring systems with receptacles. She runs the house mostly on
          DC -- lights, fans and computer. When she wants to watch TV or listen to the
          stereo, she turns on the inverter. This has the added benefit of having the
          house free of electromagnetic fields most of the time. She was told that DC
          lights were not as efficient, but found that the loss of efficiency in
          inverting DC to AC was equal, and she preferred to leave the inverter off.
          For more on Cari's house, I will send a PDF article attached to the next
          e-mail.
          >
          > Emerald Resource Solutions also has done a DC retrofit to an in-town,
          on-grid house. We installed one 120 watt panel on a super-efficient old
          adobe to assist the owners in moving off grid. Unfortunately, Annie, it
          wasn't as simple as a panel to a plug. It's a full system of conduit,
          batteries, monitors, shut-offs, etc., and took a full weekend to install.
          But the residents have fans, lights, and a car stereo they power with the
          panel.
          >
          > The closest thing I know to "plug and play" right now is the Ascension
          Technologies "AC panels" that have the inverter built right onto the panel,
          so you don't have a separate component for that. I do know that at the
          recent brainstorms conducted by the Utility Photovoltaic Group for the
          Department of Energy, the idea of "plug and play" solar systems was one of
          the crucial ideas for popularizing solar. I hope the industry is paying
          attention.
          >
          > Lisa
          >
          > Lisa Stage
          > Emerald Resource Solutions
          > lisa@...
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Kevin L. Conlin
          Becky and Lisa, your article was interesting, accurate and informative, and while DC homes or solar powered homes are not always practical for mainstream
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 7, 2000
            Becky and Lisa, your article was interesting, accurate and informative, and
            while DC homes or solar powered homes are not always practical for
            mainstream consumers, we should not overlook specific tasks within the home
            that solar is well suited for. For example, a power system dedicated to the
            home computer and other sensitive electronics that may be damaged by spikes,
            sags, brownouts, etc can be economically justified by avoiding expensive
            crashes or other damage that occurs because of "dirty" utility power. I've
            always thought that just dumping clean solar power back into the grid is a
            waste of a valuable resource. regards, Kevin

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Steve Shepard <sbtdesigns@...>
            To: <hreg@egroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 3:56 PM
            Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar info from WISE


            > The only problem with a DC home is that it is totally incompatible with
            > 99.9% of the homes on this continent. A DC home also cannot be intertied
            > with the electric utility grid and requires unique hardware that is also
            > incompatible.
            >
            > We don't recommend them.
            >
            > SBT Designs
            > 25840 IH-10 West #1
            > Boerne, Texas 78006
            > 210-698-7109
            > FAX: 210-698-7147
            > http://www.sbtdesigns.com
            > sbtdesigns@...
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Becky Merritt" <bmeritt@...>
            > To: <hreg@egroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 11:26 AM
            > Subject: [hreg] Solar info from WISE
            >
            >
            > > I thought this was particularly interesting, so I'm passing it along.
            > > Becky Merritt
            > >
            > >
            > > One of the ways to reach greater efficiency is to use DC electricity
            where
            > it is most efficient. DC is especially efficient for motors (fans,
            vacuums,
            > blenders, tools...). Laptop computers, and in fact any appliance with one
            of
            > those big fat boxes that plugs into the wall, are DC, and are converting
            > your AC power at the plug. DC also works well for lighting.
            > >
            > > Briefly, our homes and appliances generally use Alternating Current
            (AC).
            > This is because AC travels well over long distances without dropping
            > voltage, and our generating facilities are usually far from our homes. PV
            > panels create Direct Current (DC). You don't get much voltage drop,
            because
            > the panels are right near the point of use. However most solar systems
            have
            > an inverter to convert the DC to AC because our appliances are AC. Remote
            > systems, such as boat or RV, will often use the current as DC without
            > inverting it, because DC appliances are already popular in those markets.
            > >
            > > One of my partners in Emerald Resource Solutions, Cari Spring, lives in
            a
            > super-efficient off-the-grid home powered by sun and wind. The house is
            > adobe and takes advantage of passive solar design. She has four 75-watt
            > solar panels, a wind generator, a batch solar water heater with propane
            > on-demand backup, and a solar heated radiant floor heating system. She
            uses
            > a small propane-powered refrigerator. Despite having only a 1/3 kW system,
            > she and her partner have more electricity in the winter than they can use.
            > (Summertime cooling loads are bigger here in Arizona than winter heating.)
            > >
            > > She has two wiring systems with receptacles. She runs the house mostly
            on
            > DC -- lights, fans and computer. When she wants to watch TV or listen to
            the
            > stereo, she turns on the inverter. This has the added benefit of having
            the
            > house free of electromagnetic fields most of the time. She was told that
            DC
            > lights were not as efficient, but found that the loss of efficiency in
            > inverting DC to AC was equal, and she preferred to leave the inverter off.
            > For more on Cari's house, I will send a PDF article attached to the next
            > e-mail.
            > >
            > > Emerald Resource Solutions also has done a DC retrofit to an in-town,
            > on-grid house. We installed one 120 watt panel on a super-efficient old
            > adobe to assist the owners in moving off grid. Unfortunately, Annie, it
            > wasn't as simple as a panel to a plug. It's a full system of conduit,
            > batteries, monitors, shut-offs, etc., and took a full weekend to install.
            > But the residents have fans, lights, and a car stereo they power with the
            > panel.
            > >
            > > The closest thing I know to "plug and play" right now is the Ascension
            > Technologies "AC panels" that have the inverter built right onto the
            panel,
            > so you don't have a separate component for that. I do know that at the
            > recent brainstorms conducted by the Utility Photovoltaic Group for the
            > Department of Energy, the idea of "plug and play" solar systems was one of
            > the crucial ideas for popularizing solar. I hope the industry is paying
            > attention.
            > >
            > > Lisa
            > >
            > > Lisa Stage
            > > Emerald Resource Solutions
            > > lisa@...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Chuck Wright
            As he says, Net Metering provides a nearly ideal storage mechanism for a grid-attached PV. Highly efficient and free, other than the additional cost of an
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 17, 2000
              As he says, Net Metering provides a nearly ideal storage mechanism
              for a grid-attached PV. Highly efficient and free, other than the
              additional cost of an inverter that can handle this. If you have
              extra power, you pump it into the grid and your meter runs backwards.
              Effectively, the utility provides you, for no charge, a place to put your
              surplus, to take it back whenever you want.

              I attended the TREIA meeting yesterday in Austin, where there
              were discussions of the new utility deregulation legislation that
              is in progress.

              John Hoffner spoke about the future of Net Metering. As things
              stand, it looks like Net Metering could go away. The problem is
              that with the new system, the company that controls the lines
              is separate from the company that generates power. So, it is
              unclear who you would be selling power to.

              The utilities mostly dislike net metering, saying they are providing
              free storage for people. They are right. Some utilities favor having
              2 ratcheted meters, one for the electricity coming in, and one for the
              electricity going out. There would doubtless be different rates for
              the two.

              It should be pointed out that the times of PV's peak output
              in the summer correspond to times of peak demand, when the
              value of electricity is actually above average. This effect should
              to some degree offset the "free" storage service that the utility
              provides.

              The worst of all possibilities would be that you would have a single
              meter that would be ratcheted to only run forward. You might
              generate a surplus, but it would just go to onto the grid without
              compensation. At this point, the grid is worthless as a storage device
              (except for altruistic motives).

              John is trying to formulate a TREIA position/strategy on net
              metering. I think that this is a rather critical time. If anyone has
              good ideas or creative ways of looking at the problem, now would
              be a good time to speak up.

              > Message: 1
              > Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:25:05 -0600
              > From: "Ewert, Mike" <mike.ewert@...>
              > Subject: RE: Solar info from WISE
              >
              > Kevin, I hadn't heard this argument against utility power before, so I asked
              > some colleagues who work for Aerovironment what they thought. They build
              > solar motor controllers and worked on the GM electric car, among other
              > things. Here is what one said.
              >

              <snip>

              >
              > PV power:
              >
              > By far, the most cost and energy efficient way to use solar electric energy
              > when a grid is available is to have the PV tied to the grid. This
              > eliminates batteries (cost, maintenance, inefficiency) and off grid
              > inverters (large size, expensive, less efficient). When the PV is tied to
              > the customer's side of the meter, they get the benefit of their investment.
              > The excess and then sell the rest back to the utility, at night, power is
              > bought from the utility. This concept is net metering, where the utility
              > buys power from the customer at the same price it sells to the customer
              > (this only works if the customer is a net user of energy or breaks even, the
              > utility will not allow net surplus of energy under net metering).

              --
              Chuck Wright
              http://www.chuck-wright.com
            • Kevin L. Conlin
              Hi Mike, Thanks for your response, the points are accurate, but I don t agree with their position. My point was that if you are running sensitive loads such
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 17, 2000
                Hi Mike, Thanks for your response, the points are accurate, but I don't
                agree with their position. My point was that if you are running sensitive
                loads such as computers, phone systems, etc you will have to invest in
                power conditioning equipment anyway, such as surge protectors and UPS
                modules, which contain batteries and inverters. If you limit the use to
                electronics, you do not need surge capability. And while an AC-UPS system
                will be cheaper if you simply use the grid to charge the batteries, a solar
                charged one will utilize the clean solar power tp provide clean AC power. I
                don't agree that solar in not inherently clean, it is. What makes it dirty
                is sending it through the typically cheap solar voltage regulators which,
                because of poor quality and swithcing frequencies, create electronic noise
                that can disturb sensitive electronics. We have even had problems with the
                better regulators such as Morningstar.

                As for inverter sizing, keep in mind that with a battery charging system,
                the inverter has to be sized to the load, not the PV array, and although
                batteries have their limitations and drawbacks, they are still the best way
                to back-up critical loads. As you know, I don't recommend PV when you have a
                grid connect anyway, but stand by my position that by utilizing solar for
                critical and sensitive loads is just as economic as dumping it back into the
                grid, because you are in effect net metering by using it for a dedicated
                purpose. The difference is somewhat philosophical, but I think solar is
                more cost effective when used in this fashion, and people would be more
                willing to use it for small systems such as UPS rather than trying to power
                their home or offset their utility bills with it. I have one customer who
                has backed up his AC sites for years with a small solar system, and he
                reports that they are the most reliable sites in his network (he has
                thousands). The Solar/AC sites are much more reliable than either AC alone
                of stand alone solar. Thanks for an interesting perspective and dialogue.
                Best regards, Kevin

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Ewert, Mike <mike.ewert@...>
                To: <hreg@egroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 9:25 PM
                Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar info from WISE


                > Kevin, I hadn't heard this argument against utility power before, so I
                asked
                > some colleagues who work for Aerovironment what they thought. They build
                > solar motor controllers and worked on the GM electric car, among other
                > things. Here is what one said.
                >
                > Personally, I think there are cases when you should remain DC too. I'd
                like
                > to see more DC appliances mass produced so they don't cost twice as much
                as
                > AC counterparts.
                >
                ____________________________________________________________________________
                > __________
                > This gentleman is talking about two things, PV power and clean power.
                >
                > PV power:
                >
                > By far, the most cost and energy efficient way to use solar electric
                energy
                > when a grid is available is to have the PV tied to the grid. This
                > eliminates batteries (cost, maintenance, inefficiency) and off grid
                > inverters (large size, expensive, less efficient). When the PV is tied to
                > the customer's side of the meter, they get the benefit of their
                investment.
                > The excess and then sell the rest back to the utility, at night, power is
                > bought from the utility. This concept is net metering, where the utility
                > buys power from the customer at the same price it sells to the customer
                > (this only works if the customer is a net user of energy or breaks even,
                the
                > utility will not allow net surplus of energy under net metering).
                >
                > Clean Power
                >
                > PV inherently isn't clean by itself, it takes a stable source (batteries)
                > and a high quality inverter. The cases that need very clean power
                (cleaner
                > than the grid) are very few. If you have one of these situations, you
                don't
                > need PV, you can go to battery backed, off grid system (UPS) that powers
                the
                > critical loads. The batteries can be charged by the grid and/or PV (or
                > other supply, diesel generator). If charging these with PV is desired,
                then
                > undersize the PV and use the grid for the rest of the energy. This will
                be
                > much more cost effective than sizing the PV for worst case which greatly
                > under utilizes the PV the rest of the time. Another way to go is to use
                an
                > on/off grid controller that allows the PV to charge the batteries, when
                they
                > are fully charged, then the excess power goes to the grid (in this case
                the
                > array can be oversized). The off grid inverter (vs. on grid) is usually
                > less expensive per watt, but you need to size it significantly larger than
                > your array power in order to handle the surge loads. This makes it more
                > expensive. A 1000W array would need a 1000W grid tied inverter, but would
                > need at least a 4kW off grid inverter to handle motor starting loads
                (pumps,
                > washer, dryer).
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Kevin L. Conlin [mailto:kconlin@...]
                > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 8:57 PM
                > To: hreg@egroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar info from WISE
                >
                >
                > Becky and Lisa, your article was interesting, accurate and informative,
                and
                > while DC homes or solar powered homes are not always practical for
                > mainstream consumers, we should not overlook specific tasks within the
                home
                > that solar is well suited for. For example, a power system dedicated to
                the
                > home computer and other sensitive electronics that may be damaged by
                spikes,
                > sags, brownouts, etc can be economically justified by avoiding expensive
                > crashes or other damage that occurs because of "dirty" utility power. I've
                > always thought that just dumping clean solar power back into the grid is
                a
                > waste of a valuable resource. regards, Kevin
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Steve Shepard <sbtdesigns@...>
                > To: <hreg@egroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 3:56 PM
                > Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar info from WISE
                >
                >
                > > The only problem with a DC home is that it is totally incompatible with
                > > 99.9% of the homes on this continent. A DC home also cannot be
                intertied
                > > with the electric utility grid and requires unique hardware that is also
                > > incompatible.
                > >
                > > We don't recommend them.
                > >
                > > SBT Designs
                > > 25840 IH-10 West #1
                > > Boerne, Texas 78006
                > > 210-698-7109
                > > FAX: 210-698-7147
                > > http://www.sbtdesigns.com
                > > sbtdesigns@...
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Becky Merritt" <bmeritt@...>
                > > To: <hreg@egroups.com>
                > > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 11:26 AM
                > > Subject: [hreg] Solar info from WISE
                > >
                > >
                > > > I thought this was particularly interesting, so I'm passing it along.
                > > > Becky Merritt
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > One of the ways to reach greater efficiency is to use DC electricity
                > where
                > > it is most efficient. DC is especially efficient for motors (fans,
                > vacuums,
                > > blenders, tools...). Laptop computers, and in fact any appliance with
                one
                > of
                > > those big fat boxes that plugs into the wall, are DC, and are converting
                > > your AC power at the plug. DC also works well for lighting.
                > > >
                > > > Briefly, our homes and appliances generally use Alternating Current
                > (AC).
                > > This is because AC travels well over long distances without dropping
                > > voltage, and our generating facilities are usually far from our homes.
                PV
                > > panels create Direct Current (DC). You don't get much voltage drop,
                > because
                > > the panels are right near the point of use. However most solar systems
                > have
                > > an inverter to convert the DC to AC because our appliances are AC.
                Remote
                > > systems, such as boat or RV, will often use the current as DC without
                > > inverting it, because DC appliances are already popular in those
                markets.
                > > >
                > > > One of my partners in Emerald Resource Solutions, Cari Spring, lives
                in
                > a
                > > super-efficient off-the-grid home powered by sun and wind. The house is
                > > adobe and takes advantage of passive solar design. She has four 75-watt
                > > solar panels, a wind generator, a batch solar water heater with propane
                > > on-demand backup, and a solar heated radiant floor heating system. She
                > uses
                > > a small propane-powered refrigerator. Despite having only a 1/3 kW
                system,
                > > she and her partner have more electricity in the winter than they can
                use.
                > > (Summertime cooling loads are bigger here in Arizona than winter
                heating.)
                > > >
                > > > She has two wiring systems with receptacles. She runs the house mostly
                > on
                > > DC -- lights, fans and computer. When she wants to watch TV or listen to
                > the
                > > stereo, she turns on the inverter. This has the added benefit of having
                > the
                > > house free of electromagnetic fields most of the time. She was told that
                > DC
                > > lights were not as efficient, but found that the loss of efficiency in
                > > inverting DC to AC was equal, and she preferred to leave the inverter
                off.
                > > For more on Cari's house, I will send a PDF article attached to the next
                > > e-mail.
                > > >
                > > > Emerald Resource Solutions also has done a DC retrofit to an in-town,
                > > on-grid house. We installed one 120 watt panel on a super-efficient old
                > > adobe to assist the owners in moving off grid. Unfortunately, Annie, it
                > > wasn't as simple as a panel to a plug. It's a full system of conduit,
                > > batteries, monitors, shut-offs, etc., and took a full weekend to
                install.
                > > But the residents have fans, lights, and a car stereo they power with
                the
                > > panel.
                > > >
                > > > The closest thing I know to "plug and play" right now is the Ascension
                > > Technologies "AC panels" that have the inverter built right onto the
                > panel,
                > > so you don't have a separate component for that. I do know that at the
                > > recent brainstorms conducted by the Utility Photovoltaic Group for the
                > > Department of Energy, the idea of "plug and play" solar systems was one
                of
                > > the crucial ideas for popularizing solar. I hope the industry is paying
                > > attention.
                > > >
                > > > Lisa
                > > >
                > > > Lisa Stage
                > > > Emerald Resource Solutions
                > > > lisa@...
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Robert Johnston
                Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact fluorescents? They tend to be expensive up-front, so I d like to buy them as cheaply as possible.
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
                  Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact fluorescents?
                  They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as cheaply
                  as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find online.
                  For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W dimmable
                  spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also offer free
                  shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should go this
                  route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you recommend
                  as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used inside
                  enclosed
                  glass fixtures?

                  Thanks!

                  Robert Johnston
                  rjohnsto@...
                • Marjorie N Wood
                  I think a bunch of us should get together and get a huge batch of CFs and sell them at cost to ourselves. I heard that Home Depot has them but haven t been
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
                    I think a bunch of us should get together and get a huge batch of CFs and
                    sell them at cost to ourselves. I heard that Home Depot has them but
                    haven't been lately. In New York, their utility made some sort of deal
                    with a couple of mfrs of CFs and sold them to their utility customers for
                    $1 and $2. It was part of their promo for energy efficiency.
                    Marge Wood

                    On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:19:19 -0600 "Robert Johnston"
                    <rjohnsto@...> writes:
                    > Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact
                    > fluorescents?
                    > They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as
                    > cheaply
                    > as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find
                    > online.
                    > For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W
                    > dimmable
                    > spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also
                    > offer free
                    > shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should
                    > go this
                    > route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you
                    > recommend
                    > as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used
                    > inside
                    > enclosed
                    > glass fixtures?
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    >
                    > Robert Johnston
                    > rjohnsto@...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • ChasMauch@aol.com
                    Great idea, marge! Maybe we should get more details about the power company in NY that sold the CFs as an energy-saving promotion and approach HL&P (aka
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
                      Great idea, marge! Maybe we should get more details about the power company
                      in NY that sold the CFs as an energy-saving promotion and approach HL&P (aka
                      Reliant Energy or Verizon or whatever) and ask them to do the same thing. If
                      they can pay $300 million for the naming rights on an arena just for
                      publicity (although why a monopoly needs to advertise is beyone me) they
                      should be able to do this.

                      Also, I heard that the city of Austin will pay to have cars there converted
                      to run on natural gas which is a lot cheaper and cleaner than gasoline and
                      improves the air quality. This usually costs about $2,000. Also heard that
                      you could get it done even if you are from out of town if you have a friend
                      who lives in Austin. Can any of our Austin friends tell us if this is true?
                      Charlie Mauch
                    • Robert Johnston
                      It would be nice if HL&P would have a rebate program of some kind. Incidentally, I m still looking for the best place to buy CF s. I just found an even better
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
                        It would be nice if HL&P would have a rebate program of some kind.
                        Incidentally, I'm still looking for the best place to buy CF's. I
                        just found an even better deal online than the one I mentioned
                        before. Looks like www.energyguide.com has them really cheap. I
                        can get a dimmable CF for half the cost of what RealGoods charges
                        for the same thing. A 23W TechnaBright dimmable SpringLight
                        (1500 lumens or close to a 100W bulb) is only $12.75. A Harmony
                        20W standard CF (non-dimmable) is equivalent to a 75W incandescent
                        and only costs $7.25! If you figure that during its 10,000 hr lifetime
                        you would buy 10 incandescents at $0.25 each, that means the cost is
                        only $4.75. You'll recover that in energy savings at $0.08/kwh in
                        just 1080 hours, or probably in less than one year. The other 9000
                        hours worth of savings will be gravy.

                        At the www.energyguide.com website, they say that several utilities
                        offer 2 for 1 instant rebates when you purchase from them. However,
                        HL&P was not one of them. Perhaps this is something we could interest
                        them in doing, if they don't want to do the same deal as the New York
                        utility? From my calculations above, it is obvious that if they do
                        a 2 for 1 instant rebate, then consumers can buy these bulbs for almost
                        the cost of the equivalent lifetime incandescents. The energy savings
                        will all be pure profit then--for both the consumer and the environment.

                        I like the idea of HREG buying in bulk if there are enough interested
                        members. I don't know if we can do any better than www.energyguide.com.
                        Does anyone know of better deals?

                        If we really wanted to be ambitious, we could import them. I see that
                        they are mostly made in China. I looked at some China websites and see
                        where they sell what looks like the same bulb as I bought labeled
                        SpringLamp. They are sold wholesale in cases of 100. I have no idea
                        what the markup is, but if www.energyguide.com is selling them for half
                        of what RealGoods is, then perhaps we can estimate another 50% reduction
                        possible if we imported? I have no idea what would be involved in
                        importation, but suspect it might be more hassle than it is worth. On
                        the other hand, maybe a useful fundraiser?

                        Anyway, again, I'm still interested in suggestions from others as to the
                        best
                        places (online or offline) to buy CF's cheaply.

                        Robert Johnston


                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: ChasMauch@... [mailto:ChasMauch@...]
                        > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 11:10 PM
                        > To: hreg@egroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                        >
                        >
                        > Great idea, marge! Maybe we should get more details about the
                        > power company
                        > in NY that sold the CFs as an energy-saving promotion and
                        > approach HL&P (aka
                        > Reliant Energy or Verizon or whatever) and ask them to do the
                        > same thing. If
                        > they can pay $300 million for the naming rights on an arena just for
                        > publicity (although why a monopoly needs to advertise is
                        > beyone me) they
                        > should be able to do this.
                        >
                        > Also, I heard that the city of Austin will pay to have cars
                        > there converted
                        > to run on natural gas which is a lot cheaper and cleaner than
                        > gasoline and
                        > improves the air quality. This usually costs about $2,000.
                        > Also heard that
                        > you could get it done even if you are from out of town if you
                        > have a friend
                        > who lives in Austin. Can any of our Austin friends tell us if
                        > this is true?
                        > Charlie Mauch
                        >
                        > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                        > -------------------------~-~>
                        > eLerts
                        > It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
                        > http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/0/_/58590/_/974696997/
                        > --------------------------------------------------------------
                        > -------_->
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • drocketman@juno.com
                        Robert, I have a house full of compact fluorescents: three types of globes, a bullet, some sticks, spirals and floods. The highest equivalent wattage being a
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 19, 2000
                          Robert,
                          I have a house full of compact fluorescents: three types of globes, a
                          bullet, some sticks, spirals and floods. The highest equivalent wattage
                          being a spiral wound at 150w equivalent output for 32w expense by Lights
                          of America sold at Walmart. None that I have are dimmable. The bullets
                          are in ceiling fans and some wall mounts and globes are in bathroom
                          lights and hanging lamps for their aesthetic match. The floods are in
                          recessed lighting. The sticks are in shaded lamps and the spirals are
                          the most recent additions in covered ceiling fixtures (being the only
                          ones that fit with a high enough light output for me) garage and closets.
                          I put the 75w equiv bulb in place of 60 watt incandescents. The spirals
                          seem to be the best deal on cost. Walmart has sold all 4 sizes
                          (60/75/100/150watt equiv.) for the same price, $7.96 each. Though I did
                          get a couple of them clearanced inexplicably for $5 each. My
                          conservative count puts the total number of compact fluorescents in my
                          house now in use at 53 bulbs. The initial installation was 28 globes and
                          8 to 10 bullets about 6 to 8 years ago. This only includes the compact
                          fluorescents and does not include u-tubes, circline or regular
                          fluorescents. In the eight years of operation, I have replaced about 6-8
                          globes, 2-3 bullets, 3 sticks, a couple of floods and one spiral. The GE
                          90w equiv. sticks have been the least reliable. I have no experience and
                          so no suggestion on the dimmables other than I see no need to complicate
                          the design of the bulb most probably at the expense of life and
                          reliability, and instead, suggest turning only part of the bulbs on
                          instead of dimming all. I have recently appreciated the spirals because
                          of their low cost and small size, fitting into enclosed glass fixtures
                          and hidden behind standard open glass ceiling fixtures. I still rely on
                          globe types as a drop in for globe type bulbs like in bathrooms and
                          hanging lamps. I especially like them for the bathrooms where I have
                          banks of 6, 8 and 12 globes and the low heat and increased light (60w
                          equiv compared to the 40w incandescent) is really a plus. My favorite
                          globe is the GE brand FLG16/E also sold by Panasonic as the Light Capsule
                          EFG16LE. I don't know how available these are now since I haven't bought
                          any in several years... haven't had to because none have failed. I have
                          two spares still in their boxes and they are my most reliable compact
                          fluorescent. They are very lightweight and compact making them more like
                          the incandescent 40w they replaced. Because of this, they do not stress
                          the bathroom fixture near as much as the other globe types. They are
                          almost instant on, much more silent and longer life than any of the other
                          globes I have used. It was typically $16 a bulb, but in my estimation,
                          worth it over the others. I did get some of them for $5 each clearanced.

                          Dennis

                          On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:19:19 -0600 "Robert Johnston"
                          <rjohnsto@...> writes:
                          > Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact
                          > fluorescents?
                          > They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as
                          > cheaply
                          > as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find
                          > online.
                          > For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W
                          > dimmable
                          > spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also
                          > offer free
                          > shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should
                          > go this
                          > route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you
                          > recommend
                          > as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used
                          > inside
                          > enclosed
                          > glass fixtures?
                          >
                          > Thanks!
                          >
                          > Robert Johnston
                          > rjohnsto@...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Jim & Kathi Syzdek
                          Robert, In Houston, Home Depot has the Twisters by G.E. for around $9.00ea. They are the cheapest I have seen locally. Jim ...
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 20, 2000
                            Robert,
                            In Houston, Home Depot has the Twisters by G.E. for around $9.00ea. They
                            are the cheapest I have seen locally.

                            Jim


                            >From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
                            >Reply-To: hreg@egroups.com
                            >To: <hreg@egroups.com>
                            >Subject: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                            >Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:19:19 -0600
                            >
                            >Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact fluorescents?
                            >They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as cheaply
                            >as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find online.
                            >For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W dimmable
                            >spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also offer
                            >free
                            >shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should go
                            >this
                            >route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you recommend
                            >as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used inside
                            >enclosed
                            >glass fixtures?
                            >
                            >Thanks!
                            >
                            >Robert Johnston
                            >rjohnsto@...
                            >
                            >

                            _________________________________________________________________________
                            Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

                            Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
                            http://profiles.msn.com
                          • Steve Stelzer
                            Robert, check out the CF s at IKEA. They may not be exactly apples to apples for the unit you are talking about. IKEA is basically subsidizing CF s because
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 20, 2000
                              Robert, check out the CF's at IKEA. They may not be exactly apples to
                              apples for the unit you are talking about. IKEA is basically subsidizing
                              CF's because they are in the $5.00 range.

                              Steve Stelzer

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Robert Johnston [mailto:rjohnsto@...]
                              Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 11:41 PM
                              To: hreg@egroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents


                              It would be nice if HL&P would have a rebate program of some kind.
                              Incidentally, I'm still looking for the best place to buy CF's. I
                              just found an even better deal online than the one I mentioned
                              before. Looks like www.energyguide.com has them really cheap. I
                              can get a dimmable CF for half the cost of what RealGoods charges
                              for the same thing. A 23W TechnaBright dimmable SpringLight
                              (1500 lumens or close to a 100W bulb) is only $12.75. A Harmony
                              20W standard CF (non-dimmable) is equivalent to a 75W incandescent
                              and only costs $7.25! If you figure that during its 10,000 hr lifetime
                              you would buy 10 incandescents at $0.25 each, that means the cost is
                              only $4.75. You'll recover that in energy savings at $0.08/kwh in
                              just 1080 hours, or probably in less than one year. The other 9000
                              hours worth of savings will be gravy.

                              At the www.energyguide.com website, they say that several utilities
                              offer 2 for 1 instant rebates when you purchase from them. However,
                              HL&P was not one of them. Perhaps this is something we could interest
                              them in doing, if they don't want to do the same deal as the New York
                              utility? From my calculations above, it is obvious that if they do
                              a 2 for 1 instant rebate, then consumers can buy these bulbs for almost
                              the cost of the equivalent lifetime incandescents. The energy savings
                              will all be pure profit then--for both the consumer and the environment.

                              I like the idea of HREG buying in bulk if there are enough interested
                              members. I don't know if we can do any better than www.energyguide.com.
                              Does anyone know of better deals?

                              If we really wanted to be ambitious, we could import them. I see that
                              they are mostly made in China. I looked at some China websites and see
                              where they sell what looks like the same bulb as I bought labeled
                              SpringLamp. They are sold wholesale in cases of 100. I have no idea
                              what the markup is, but if www.energyguide.com is selling them for half
                              of what RealGoods is, then perhaps we can estimate another 50% reduction
                              possible if we imported? I have no idea what would be involved in
                              importation, but suspect it might be more hassle than it is worth. On
                              the other hand, maybe a useful fundraiser?

                              Anyway, again, I'm still interested in suggestions from others as to the
                              best
                              places (online or offline) to buy CF's cheaply.

                              Robert Johnston


                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: ChasMauch@... [mailto:ChasMauch@...]
                              > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 11:10 PM
                              > To: hreg@egroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                              >
                              >
                              > Great idea, marge! Maybe we should get more details about the
                              > power company
                              > in NY that sold the CFs as an energy-saving promotion and
                              > approach HL&P (aka
                              > Reliant Energy or Verizon or whatever) and ask them to do the
                              > same thing. If
                              > they can pay $300 million for the naming rights on an arena just for
                              > publicity (although why a monopoly needs to advertise is
                              > beyone me) they
                              > should be able to do this.
                              >
                              > Also, I heard that the city of Austin will pay to have cars
                              > there converted
                              > to run on natural gas which is a lot cheaper and cleaner than
                              > gasoline and
                              > improves the air quality. This usually costs about $2,000.
                              > Also heard that
                              > you could get it done even if you are from out of town if you
                              > have a friend
                              > who lives in Austin. Can any of our Austin friends tell us if
                              > this is true?
                              > Charlie Mauch
                              >
                              > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
                              > -------------------------~-~>
                              > eLerts
                              > It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
                              > http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/0/_/58590/_/974696997/
                              > --------------------------------------------------------------
                              > -------_->
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • paul breaux
                              Please remove me from this email list. Paul ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from
                              Message 14 of 14 , Nov 20, 2000
                                Please remove me from this email list.
                                Paul


                                >From: "Jim & Kathi Syzdek" <jksyzdek@...>
                                >Reply-To: hreg@egroups.com
                                >To: hreg@egroups.com
                                >Subject: Re: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                                >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:59:07 CST
                                >MIME-Version: 1.0
                                >X-Originating-IP: [139.169.53.17]
                                >Received: from [208.50.144.80] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id
                                >MHotMailBBE29665000FD82197B9D03290504AEC16; Mon Nov 20 08:05:19 2000
                                >Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mr.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Nov 2000
                                >15:59:13 -0000
                                >Received: (EGP: mail-6_2_1); 20 Nov 2000 15:59:12 -0000
                                >Received: (qmail 2377 invoked from network); 20 Nov 2000 15:59:10 -0000
                                >Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Nov
                                >2000 15:59:10 -0000
                                >Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.30.176) by mta2 with SMTP;
                                >20 Nov 2000 15:59:10 -0000
                                >Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC;
                                >Mon, 20 Nov 2000 07:59:08 -0800
                                >Received: from 139.169.53.17 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon,
                                >20 Nov 2000 15:59:07 GMT
                                >From sentto-1198778-252-974735952-pbreaux Mon Nov 20 08:05:45 2000
                                >X-eGroups-Return:
                                >sentto-1198778-252-974735952-pbreaux=hotmail.com@...
                                >X-Sender: jksyzdek@...
                                >X-Apparently-To: hreg@egroups.com
                                >Message-ID: <F301a4RCIlWrdFOSPUP00002229@...>
                                >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Nov 2000 15:59:08.0018 (UTC)
                                >FILETIME=[D08EED20:01C0530A]
                                >Mailing-List: list hreg@egroups.com; contact hreg-owner@egroups.com
                                >Delivered-To: mailing list hreg@egroups.com
                                >Precedence: bulk
                                >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:hreg-unsubscribe@egroups.com>
                                >
                                >
                                >Robert,
                                > In Houston, Home Depot has the Twisters by G.E. for around $9.00ea.
                                >They
                                >are the cheapest I have seen locally.
                                >
                                >Jim
                                >
                                >
                                > >From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
                                > >Reply-To: hreg@egroups.com
                                > >To: <hreg@egroups.com>
                                > >Subject: [hreg] Compact Fluorescents
                                > >Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:19:19 -0600
                                > >
                                > >Anybody have suggestions on the best place to buy compact fluorescents?
                                > >They tend to be expensive up-front, so I'd like to buy them as cheaply
                                > >as possible. Efficienthome.com was the cheapest place I could find
                                >online.
                                > >For example, I can buy a 23W regular spiral lamp for $12 or a 23W
                                >dimmable
                                > >spiral lamp for $21 (www.efficenthome.com/spiral.htm). They also offer
                                > >free
                                > >shipping and 10% discounts on $200 purchases. Do you think I should go
                                > >this
                                > >route, or is there a better outfit to go with? What brand do you
                                >recommend
                                > >as the best for dimmable compact fluorescents, that can be used inside
                                > >enclosed
                                > >glass fixtures?
                                > >
                                > >Thanks!
                                > >
                                > >Robert Johnston
                                > >rjohnsto@...
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >_________________________________________________________________________
                                >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
                                >
                                >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
                                >http://profiles.msn.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                _________________________________________________________________________
                                Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

                                Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
                                http://profiles.msn.com
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.