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Re: [hreg] Fwd: Study gives technical go-ahead to 10% wind penetration in New York state

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  • David Power
    It s sad indeed. How about the comparison between a regular power plant and a wind farm as far as land usage. The don t seem to mention that you can still
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 9, 2005
      It's sad indeed. 
      How about the comparison between a regular power plant and a wind farm as far as land usage. The don't seem to mention that you can still actually use the land the wind farm occupies, the cows and corn don't seem to mind a bit.
      I also didn't realize that Germany was having grid stabilization problems due to the amount of wind production. We were there last fall and there were wind generators everywhere showing very fancy paint jobs to blend them into the surrounding terrain. I never did notice a glitch or blackout. We did see some amazing 3 Meg test machines.
       
      David
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 12:25 PM
      Subject: RE: [hreg] Fwd: Study gives technical go-ahead to 10% wind penetration in New York state

      Well, of all the technologies reviewed in that document, Clean Coal is the only one without a “Costs and Challenges” overview, so that must be the best one.

       

      Andrew H. McCalla

      Meridian Energy Systems

      2300 S. Lamar, Ste. 107

      Austin, TX   78704

       

      Voice: (512) 448-0055

      Fax:    (512) 448-0045

      www.meridiansolar.com

       


      From: David Power [mailto:dpower@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 12:00 PM
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Fw: [hreg] Fwd: Study gives technical go-ahead to 10% wind penetration in New York state

       

       

      That's refreshing, I'm attaching a PDF that is being handed around the Leg in Austin right now authored by the Association of Electric Companies of Texas  . Its not very flattering to renewables. If the attachment doesn't go through you can grab it off of their web site. http://tinyurl.com/6kks3.

       

      David

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: Tom Gray

      Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 12:37 AM

      Subject: [hreg] Fwd: Study gives technical go-ahead to 10% wind penetration in New York state

       


      >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 14:31:50 -0500
      >From: "Christine Real de Azua" <Christine@...>
      >To: "Christine Real de Azua" <Christine@...>
      >Subject: Study gives technical go-ahead to 10% wind penetration in New
      >         York state
      >
      >Dear energy editor,
      >
      >The New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA) has
      >released the final draft of a technical study on integrating wind energy
      >into the New York grid, which concludes that a 10% penetration level of
      >wind can be accommodated without major changes in the planning,
      >operations, or reliability of the state's bulk power system.
      >
      >"This technical analysis lays to rest any concerns about integrating
      >substantial amounts of wind energy into the New York grid, and finds that
      >more wind power will in some cases improve reliability," said American
      >Wind Energy Association (AWEA) Acting Policy Director Michael Jacobs. "The
      >technical findings will also be very useful to other regions that are
      >adding wind to their systems, even with regional differences."
      >
      >In particular, the study found that:
      >
      >*       The incremental increase of 10% wind power can be accommodated by
      >existing processes and resource in NY state, whether this is in the
      >minutes, hours, days, or years management time frames;
      >
      >*       Even without forecasts, wind energy displaces conventional
      >generation, reduces system operating costs, and reduces emissions;
      >
      >*       No change to spinning reserve requirements would be needed;
      >
      >*       State-of-the art wind turbines improve post-fault response of the
      >interconnected power grid.
      >
      >
      >The study focuses on a wind generation scenario of 3,300 MW, corresponding
      >to approximately 10% of New York State 's 2008 projected peak load.  The
      >state's Renewables Portfolio Standard is expected to result in about the
      >estimated 3,700 megawatts (MW) of new renewable generation by 2013.  This
      >final draft builds on a preliminary assessment released in early 2004,
      >which also indicated that large-scale wind generation should not cause
      >significant adverse impacts.
      >
      >AWEA will file technical comments on certain sections of the study.
      >
      >NYSERDA requested the study from GE Energy Consulting because of this
      >consulting company's widely recognized expertise on grid integration
      >issues for all technologies.  Albany-based AWS Truewind, a significant
      >support contractor, supplied wind resource, wind plant production and
      >forecasting data to GE.
      >
      >The study is available on NYSERDA's web site at
      >http://www.nyserda.org/rps/default.asp.
      >
      >Please contact Christine Real de Azua at (202) 383-2508 for additional
      >information and industry contacts.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Christine Real de Azua
      >Assistant Director of Communications
      >American Wind Energy Association
      >Direct phone: (202) 383-2508
      >Fax: (202) 383-2505
      >Email: Christine@...
      >Web: www.awea.org





    • C.C. Foster
      FYI RE: electrical power surges, swells and sags Electrical power surges are invisible and frequently cause severe damage to electrical components. An example
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 12, 2005
        FYI

        RE: electrical power surges, swells and sags

        Electrical power surges are invisible and frequently cause severe damage to
        electrical components.

        An example of power surges can be HEARD on an engine driven welding machine.
        When the welder strikes an arc the engine suddnly slows down just at the
        instant the welding begins until the governor readjusts the speed. You can
        tell the engine runs slightly slower under load that when it has no load.
        The differenct in speed is called governor "speed regulation".

        The voltage also SAGS a little before the automatic voltage regulator
        restores the voltage. You cannot HEAR this adjustment but it is very similar
        to the speed decrease. The automatic voltage response is also very much
        faster than the governor because it is electronic rather than mechanical.
        The load voltage is also a little lower than the unloaded generator voltage
        and the difference is called the voltage regulation.

        When the welder lifts his rod, the engine speeds up slightly and the
        voltage increases. This results in a SURGE or SWELL. The engine speed and
        the generator voltage each jump a little and the governor and the voltage
        regulator respond to correct the unbalance between setpoint and actual
        values. Again the speed of the engine can be heard but the response of the
        voltage regulator cannot be seen or heard.

        Most engine driven generators respond quickly to load changes because their
        momentum is low. Wind generators have a lot of momentum so they respond much
        slower than engine driven generators. Thus the SURGES and SAGS take much
        longer to correct. Any grid must have some quick responding generators if
        many slow responding generators (wind mills) are on line or severe

        Another problem comes up when the throttles are trying to increase the power
        level to compensate for a load increase when the load decreases suddenly.
        Now the machine is trying to speed up at the same time the load is dropping.
        The governors need SUPPLEMENTARY CONTROL under this circumstance. The
        welding machine is not a good enough example to show how this supplementary
        control is applied but you can see that the governors and voltage requlators
        could become confused unless they had some invisible and reliable help.


        I trust this will help you understand SOME of the issues with controlling
        power generation and some of the unseen cost of operating a grid.

        The hreg may not be interested in a lot of this kind of talk so I request
        you let me know if you would like to discuss this further:
        C_C_Foster@....


        <html><div><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">Claude
        Foster</FONT></div></html>



        >From: "David Power" <dpower@...>
        >Reply-To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        >To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
        >Subject: Re: [hreg] Fwd: Study gives technical go-ahead to 10% wind
        penetration in New York state
        >Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:53:39 -0600
        >
        >It's sad indeed.
        >How about the comparison between a regular power plant and a wind farm
        as
        >far as land usage. The don't seem to mention that you can still actually
        use
        >the land the wind farm occupies, the cows and corn don't seem to mind a
        bit.
        >I also didn't realize that Germany was having grid stabilization
        problems
        >due to the amount of wind production. We were there last fall and there
        were
        >wind generators everywhere showing very fancy paint jobs to blend them
        into
        >the surrounding terrain. I never did notice a glitch or blackout. We did
        see
        >some amazing 3 Meg test machines.
        >
        >David
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Andrew McCalla
        > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 12:25 PM
        > Subject: RE: [hreg] Fwd: Study gives technical go-ahead to 10% wind
        >penetration in New York state
        >
        >
        > Well, of all the technologies reviewed in that document, Clean Coal
        is the
        >only one without a "Costs and Challenges" overview, so that
        must be the best
        >one.
        >
        >
        >
        > Andrew H. McCalla
        >
        > Meridian Energy Systems
        >
        > 2300 S. Lamar, Ste. 107
        >
        > Austin, TX 78704
        >
        >
        >
        > Voice: (512) 448-0055
        >
        > Fax: (512) 448-0045
        >
        > www.meridiansolar.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >--
        >
        > From: David Power [mailto:dpower@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 12:00 PM
        > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Fw: [hreg] Fwd: Study gives technical go-ahead to 10% wind
        >penetration in New York state
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > That's refreshing, I'm attaching a PDF that is being handed around
        the Leg
        >in Austin right now authored by the Association of Electric Companies of
        >Texas . Its not very flattering to renewables. If the attachment doesn't
        go
        >through you can grab it off of their web site. http://tinyurl.com/6kks3.
        >
        >
        >
        > David
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        >
        > From: Tom Gray
        >
        > To: tomgray@...
        >
        > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 12:37 AM
        >
        > Subject: [hreg] Fwd: Study gives technical go-ahead to 10% wind
        >penetration in New York state
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 14:31:50 -0500
        > >From: "Christine Real de Azua"
        <Christine@...>
        > >To: "Christine Real de Azua"
        <Christine@...>
        > >Subject: Study gives technical go-ahead to 10% wind penetration
        in New
        > > York state
        > >
        > >Dear energy editor,
        > >
        > >The New York State Energy Research and Development Authority
        (NYSERDA)
        >has
        > >released the final draft of a technical study on integrating
        wind
        >energy
        > >into the New York grid, which concludes that a 10% penetration
        level of
        > >wind can be accommodated without major changes in the planning,
        > >operations, or reliability of the state's bulk power system.
        > >
        > >"This technical analysis lays to rest any concerns about
        integrating
        > >substantial amounts of wind energy into the New York grid, and
        finds
        >that
        > >more wind power will in some cases improve reliability,"
        said American
        > >Wind Energy Association (AWEA) Acting Policy Director Michael
        Jacobs.
        >"The
        > >technical findings will also be very useful to other regions
        that are
        > >adding wind to their systems, even with regional
        differences."
        > >
        > >In particular, the study found that:
        > >
        > >* The incremental increase of 10% wind power can be
        accommodated
        >by
        > >existing processes and resource in NY state, whether this is in
        the
        > >minutes, hours, days, or years management time frames;
        > >
        > >* Even without forecasts, wind energy displaces
        conventional
        > >generation, reduces system operating costs, and reduces
        emissions;
        > >
        > >* No change to spinning reserve requirements would be
        needed;
        > >
        > >* State-of-the art wind turbines improve post-fault
        response of
        >the
        > >interconnected power grid.
        > >
        > >
        > >The study focuses on a wind generation scenario of 3,300 MW,
        >corresponding
        > >to approximately 10% of New York State's 2008 projected peak
        load. The
        > >state's Renewables Portfolio Standard is expected to result in
        about
        >the
        > >estimated 3,700 megawatts (MW) of new renewable generation by
        2013.
        >This
        > >final draft builds on a preliminary assessment released in
        early 2004,
        > >which also indicated that large-scale wind generation should
        not cause
        > >significant adverse impacts.
        > >
        > >AWEA will file technical comments on certain sections of the
        study.
        > >
        > >NYSERDA requested the study from GE Energy Consulting because
        of this
        > >consulting company's widely recognized expertise on grid
        integration
        > >issues for all technologies. Albany-based AWS Truewind, a
        significant
        > >support contractor, supplied wind resource, wind plant
        production and
        > >forecasting data to GE.
        > >
        > >The study is available on NYSERDA's web site at
        > >http://www.nyserda.org/rps/default.asp.
        > >
        > >Please contact Christine Real de Azua at (202) 383-2508 for
        additional
        > >information and industry contacts.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >Christine Real de Azua
        > >Assistant Director of Communications
        > >American Wind Energy Association
        > >Direct phone: (202) 383-2508
        > >Fax: (202) 383-2505
        > >Email: Christine@...
        > >Web: www.awea.org
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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