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(fwd) More anecdotes on old institutions. (fwd)

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  • Paul Archer
    Some of you may have seen this before, but I came across it again today and thought I d share. -- forwarded message -- Newsgroups: rec.humor.funny.reruns
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 30, 2003
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      Some of you may have seen this before, but I came across it again today and
      thought I'd share.



      -- forwarded message --
      Newsgroups: rec.humor.funny.reruns
      Organization: Reuters Information Services (Canada)
      From: dgil@... (Gillett, David)
      Subject: More anecdotes on old institutions.




      My two favourite anecdotes on this subject demonstrate the difference
      between renewable and non-renewable resources. First the non-renewable:

      The congregation of a small stone church (in England?) decided that
      the stone which formed the step up to the front door had become two
      worn by its years of use, and would have to be replaced. Unfortunately,
      there were hardly any funds available for the replacement. Then
      someone came up with the bright idea that the replacement could be
      postponed for many years by simply turning the block of stone over.

      They discovered that their great-grandparents had beaten them to it.

      ------------------------------------------------


      Now the renewable:

      An entomologist at New College, Oxford ("New" because its only a few
      centuries old), discovered beetles infesting the oak beams supporting
      the roof of the Great Hall. It was fairly urgent that these be
      replaced before the roof collapsed -- but anyone who has looked at the
      price of oak lately can tell you that this was not something the
      college budget was prepared for.

      Since oak from a commercial supplier was out of the question, someone
      suggested that the college Forester be sent for. His job was to
      administer the various scattered tracts of land that had been deeded to
      the college when it was founded. The trustees hoped he might know of
      suitable trees on college land.

      It turned out that there was indeed a suitable stand of mighty oaks.
      They had been planted when the college was founded, and down the
      centuries each Forester had told his successor: "You don't cut those
      oaks; those are for when the beetles get into the beams in the Main
      Hall."
    • Joseph
      I was wondering where I can get some data on the energy it takes to make a PV panel in comparison to the energy that same panel will be able to produce during
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 31, 2003
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        I was wondering where I can get some data on the energy it takes to make
        a PV panel in comparison to the energy that same panel will be able to
        produce during it's operational lifetime.

        Any ideas?

        Joseph Davis
      • BASHIR A SYED
        It s an interesting question to think. According to law of Conservation of Energy, the process of making it from Silicon, of course, requires energy, and sure
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 31, 2003
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          It's an interesting question to think. According to law of Conservation of Energy, the process of making it from Silicon, of course, requires energy, and sure enough some energy is wasted in the form of heat etc. But in the end, the Solar Cell is a device for converting Visible electromagnetic (wave) energy into electrical energy. It's not that one looks at the Renewable Energy devices from the point of view described in your question but comparing it with other modes of Energy Conversion and their impact on Environment, Reliability, and overall cost over a period of twenty years (i.e. free solar energy vs. cost of fossil fuel imports,  cleaning up the environment, and providing health care for sickness caused  the pollutants).
          I hope, this answers your question in terms of overall economics and protection of environment.
           
          Bashir A. Syed
          VP, EnerTech Enterprises, Inc.
          Houston, TX
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Joseph
          Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 2:58 PM
          Subject: [hreg] Cost in energy of producing a PV panel vs. it's lifetime return

          I was wondering where I can get some data on the energy it takes to make
          a PV panel in comparison to the energy that same panel will be able to
          produce during it's operational lifetime.

          Any ideas?

          Joseph Davis



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        • Roxanne Boyer
          Joseph, The answer is not easy because the technology is advancing rapidly. Ten years ago, it may have taken as much energy to make a solar panel as would the
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 1, 2003
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            Joseph,
            The answer is not easy because the technology is advancing rapidly.  Ten years ago, it may have taken as much energy to make a solar panel as would the solar panel produce over its life time.  Right now, modern plants produce solar cells that will produce about 4 to 5 more time energy than went into them.  However, from what I read, it is scarry to build a plant right now, as soon as you build it, the technology is obsolete.  They say the solar panels will produce about 10 time more energy than required to build them in the next few years.  That is equivalent to the "efficiency" of today's American oil well.
             
            Two good sources are:
            1) "Renewable Energy World" July-August 2003, Vol 6, No4.  Contains several articles.
            2) "Renewable Energy" Godfrey Boyle, Oxford Press.  1st Edition 1996.  2nd Edition comming 2004.
             
            Regards,
            Chris
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Joseph
            Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 2:58 PM
            Subject: [hreg] Cost in energy of producing a PV panel vs. it's lifetime return

            I was wondering where I can get some data on the energy it takes to make
            a PV panel in comparison to the energy that same panel will be able to
            produce during it's operational lifetime.

            Any ideas?

            Joseph Davis



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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          • BASHIR A SYED
            The Conducting Polymer technology that may produce cheap and disposable Solar Cells is being developed. The 2000 Chemistry Nobel Prize was shared by two
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 2, 2003
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              The Conducting Polymer technology that may produce cheap and disposable Solar Cells is being developed. The 2000 Chemistry Nobel Prize was shared by two Americans (one an organic chemist, another a physicist) and a Japanese (Ishikawa, who discvered this property). Conducting Polymers coupled with nanotechnology (Composites) show a great promise for new Photovoltaic devices. I published an article in NASA's EEE-Link published by NASA/GSFC about two years ago describing the applications of this new emerging technology, one prominent application is the Organic Light Emitting Diodes or OLEDs. The two sources cited below are very good references.
               
              Bashir A. Syed
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 10:11 PM
              Subject: Re: [hreg] Cost in energy of producing a PV panel vs. it's lifetime return

              Joseph,
              The answer is not easy because the technology is advancing rapidly.  Ten years ago, it may have taken as much energy to make a solar panel as would the solar panel produce over its life time.  Right now, modern plants produce solar cells that will produce about 4 to 5 more time energy than went into them.  However, from what I read, it is scarry to build a plant right now, as soon as you build it, the technology is obsolete.  They say the solar panels will produce about 10 time more energy than required to build them in the next few years.  That is equivalent to the "efficiency" of today's American oil well.
               
              Two good sources are:
              1) "Renewable Energy World" July-August 2003, Vol 6, No4.  Contains several articles.
              2) "Renewable Energy" Godfrey Boyle, Oxford Press.  1st Edition 1996.  2nd Edition comming 2004.
               
              Regards,
              Chris
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Joseph
              Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 2:58 PM
              Subject: [hreg] Cost in energy of producing a PV panel vs. it's lifetime return

              I was wondering where I can get some data on the energy it takes to make
              a PV panel in comparison to the energy that same panel will be able to
              produce during it's operational lifetime.

              Any ideas?

              Joseph Davis



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              [Scanned by AwesomeNet Anti-Virus]


              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • txsolarguy
              ... make ... to ... Hi, this thread goes back to the question on Aug 31. Below is a link to an article on the Home Power website that answers this exact
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 13, 2003
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                --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Joseph <joseph@d...> wrote:
                > I was wondering where I can get some data on the energy it takes to
                make
                > a PV panel in comparison to the energy that same panel will be able
                to
                > produce during it's operational lifetime.
                >
                > Any ideas?
                >
                > Joseph Davis

                Hi, this thread goes back to the question on Aug 31. Below is a link
                to an article on the Home Power website that answers this exact
                question about energy payback vs energy used to produce a PV panel.
                http://www.homepower.com/files/pvpayback.pdf
                It's a fairly long article but the authors published a paper at Solar
                2000: ASES Annual Conference in Madison, Wisconsin on this exact
                question, so I suspect that it's pretty accurate. Which is good
                because the answer is that the payback time is 2-4 years.
                They take into account every step of the process including the
                smelting of the aluminum and the casting of the glass. Both processes
                are very energy intensive. However, the cost goes down as the volume
                goes up so the actual cost for 10 feet or so of extruded aluminum for
                the module frame, for instance, is really not that great.
                Anyway, I hope to see you all at the Roundup. A bunch of us from
                NTREG will be there!
                Jim Duncan, Fort Worth
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