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RE: [hreg] Grid revisions

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  • Michael Christie
    Now there is a good solution to the question of a product that would help a New Yorker living on an old second floor, north facing apartment in a 20 story
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 18, 2003
      Now there is a good solution to the question of a "product that would help a
      New Yorker living on an old second floor, north facing apartment in a 20
      story highrise surrounded by other 20 story highrises on all four sides."
      New York has plenty of garbage! A new market for home-sized methane
      digesters!

      Michael

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Paul Archer [mailto:tigger@...]
      Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 4:11 PM
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [hreg] Grid revisions


      Reminds me of the '82 world's fair in Tennessee. The theme was power, and
      the Chinese exhibit showed how in rural areas methane was tapped from
      compost heaps to light lamps and stoves in farmers' homes.
      As I recall, the Chinese exhibit was the most popular one at the fair: they
      had the good sense to put the actual energy-related stuff in one corner of
      their exhibit, and filled the rest with cultural artifacts. Proving, I
      guess, that people aren't really interested in energy if they don't have to
      be (like when they're in the middle of a massive blackout).

      Paul



      4:38pm, Ooi, Han wrote:

      > Only renewable power I could think of for the scenario I outlined is a
      > family of four eating several big meals of baked beans and burritos. LOL
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Steven Shepard [mailto:sbtdesigns@...]
      > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 2:41 PM
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [hreg] Grid revisions
      >
      >
      > Oh, I could think of something if the money was right.
      >
      > SBT Designs
      > 25840 IH-10 West #1
      > Boerne, Texas 78006
      > 210-698-7109
      > FAX: 210-698-7147
      > www.sbtdesigns.com
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Ooi, Han <mailto:Han.Ooi@...>
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 2:10 PM
      > Subject: RE: [hreg] Grid revisions
      >
      > Checked out your web site.
      >
      > Didn't find any product that would help a New Yorker living on an old
      second floor, north facing apartment in a 20 story highrise surrounded by
      other 20 story highrises on all four sides. Do you know of any other
      company who would carry a renewable distributed power product that can pump
      out 1kW/hour of sustain power 24/7? Oh, and the product must not be an
      eyesore and violate any zoning/deed restrictions.
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Steven Shepard [mailto:sbtdesigns@...]
      > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 1:56 PM
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [hreg] Grid revisions
      >
      >
      > Actually, I am quite certain that the folks up north who huddled in the
      dark of their unpowered homes smelling their food spoil in the refrigeration
      would be very glad to have some type back up power supply on their home.
      Solar and wind power systems are an example of distributed power.
      >
      > SBT Designs
      > 25840 IH-10 West #1
      > Boerne, Texas 78006
      > 210-698-7109
      > FAX: 210-698-7147
      > www.sbtdesigns.com
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Ooi, <mailto:Han.Ooi@...> Han
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 4:14 AM
      > Subject: RE: [hreg] Grid revisions
      >
      > Well,
      > I highly doubt solar energy would have done anything for the blackouts
      in the Midwest and Northeast without an upgraded transmission and
      distribution system. If you have ever looked at a solar energy map, the
      part of the USA that receives the most solar radiation is the Southwest (200
      to 250 Watts per square meter on average anually). Only in that region do
      you receive enough sun throughout the year to more likely recoup your
      investment in solar.
      >
      > A more realistic solution that won't get you laughed out of your
      congressman's office is to propose an advanced fully upgraded national
      transmission grid that links a diverse set of electric generation sources
      including renewables such as solar, wind, hydro, and geo. This way
      renewable energy that is generated in areas that are abundant in one type of
      renewable energy can transmit it to an area that is poor in renewable
      energy.
      >
      > As for the proposal for distributed micro generation, it would be
      feasible in some areas but not in others again depending on the type of
      renewable available. You still need a certain economy of scale to justify
      the cost. Otherwise, it smells of Chairman Mao's Great Leap Forward where
      every peasant family had an iron smelter in their back yard that produced
      crap iron.
      >
      > Bottom line, we are dealing with a problem of distribution, not
      generation.
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Steven Shepard [mailto:sbtdesigns@...]
      > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 8:48 PM
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [hreg] Grid revisions
      >
      >
      > If you need material for a letter to a politician you are welcome to the
      following:
      >
      > On Thursday, August 14, 2003 the northeastern and mid-western US
      experienced the largest blackout in this country's history.
      > Mass transit systems ground to a halt, oil refineries were forced to shut
      down, the FAA stopped flights into airports, nuclear
      > reactors were taken off-line, and millions were left without power. The
      blackouts affected approximately 50 million people over a
      > 9300-square-mile area. New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg told
      reporters, "All of a sudden, a few things weren't working
      > and then you realized how dependent we are on electricity."
      >
      > These events cascaded out of control because the electric utility grid was
      stressed by air-conditioning demand from the summer
      > heat. Almost the entire US was at temperatures near or above 90 degrees.
      Because of the enormous energy load it did not take
      > much of a trigger to send the energy delivery system down.
      >
      > As one should expect during hot weather, the solar resource of this nation
      was excellent and nearly ideal in most of the stressed
      > regions of this country. A more widely dispersed base of solar energy
      could have reduced the overall delivery system stress and
      > lowered the risk of catastrophic failure. Thursday's blackouts are a
      wake-up call, reminding us that North America's electrical
      > grid is a dysfunctional patchwork system that requires dramatic changes.
      Rising electricity consumption and costs are significant
      > factors in the instability of the grid.
      >
      > Yet, energy saving products and technologies are widely available. More
      efficient appliances, lights, better constructed buildings,
      > and various forms or renewable energy such as solar and wind power can
      dramatically reduce the amount of electricity we draw
      > from the electric utility grid at large. In most cases these energy
      saving technologies can save money both in the short and long
      > term. Renewable energy is a sustainable product and service that we all
      need now.
      >
      > It is incumbent upon myself and my business as a renewable energy vendor
      to take this opportunity to write and shout about the
      > benefits of renewable energy while electricity is on the mind of the
      public and the press. We can improve the electricity
      > generation and distribution system and help avoid blackouts by using less
      electricity and producing power independently using
      > renewable energy such as solar and wind power.
      >
      > Now is the time for America to commit to using less electricity and to
      speeding the installation of distributed energy systems, such as rooftop
      solar power systems, fuel cells, and small wind energy power systems. Not
      only would this decrease the likelihood of
      > future blackouts, but it would slow global warming and reduce air
      pollution.
      >
      > If everyone in our community were to replace one of their old inefficient
      appliances or cars with a new energy efficient one, we
      > could significantly reduce our reliance on foreign oil and the electric
      utility grid. This would help avoid blackouts such as the one
      > that recently affected 50 million people.
      >
      > The solar panels on our office that make up our independent power system
      provide clean, reliable electricity that doesn't contribute
      > to blackouts and helps to conserve our nation's energy resources.
      >
      > Steve Shepard
      > SBT Designs
      > 25840 IH-10 West #1
      > Boerne, Texas 78006
      > 210-698-7109
      > FAX: 210-698-7147
      > www.sbtdesigns.com
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Roxanne Boyer <mailto:rox1@...>
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 8:31 PM
      > Subject: [hreg] Grid revisions
      >
      > In light of the Blackout in the Northeast, politicians may be sensitive to
      related issues. Now would be a good time to write your congressman and
      request that renewable energy be part of any Grid upgrade. Many of the
      nations potential wind sites need to have grid connection. Question. Would
      the black-out have been as severe if there was more wind power on the grid?
      Are wind farms less susceptible to power failures?
      >
      > -Chris
      >
      >
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      -------------------------------------
      O give me a home,
      Where the buffalo roam,
      Where the deer and the antelope play,
      Where seldom is heard
      A discouraging word,
      'Cause what can an antelope say?
      -------------------------------------




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    • Jim & Janet Duncan
      Han wrote: If you have ever looked at a solar energy map, the part of the USA that receives the most solar radiation is the Southwest (200 to 250 Watts per
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 18, 2003
        Han wrote:
        If you have ever looked at a solar energy map, the part of the USA that receives the most solar radiation is the Southwest (200 to 250 Watts per square meter on average anually
        Yes it's true the sun shines more hours in the south than up north, it still shines there.
        According to the NREL, the amount of sun in Houston vs.the amount of sun in NYC is:
        "Solar radiation for 1-axis tracking flat-plate collectors with a N-S axis (kWh/m2/day)"
        NYC average for 1 year with the PV array tilted to Lat. 40.78 N = 5.6  kWh/m2/day
        Houston average for 1 year with the PV array tilted to Lat. 29.98 N = 6.0  kWh/m2/day
        Fort Worth average for 1 year with the PV array tilted to Lat. 29.98 N = 6.9  kWh/m2/day
        Go figure.
        The concept of Distributed Generation is what makes the difference. Having PV systems working during the day, say at 10,000 homes in the state of NY, the power NOT taken from the grid during the 'peak load' hours is equal to the amount that is used from the 10,000 systems. Say 10kW per day.
        When all those folks come home from work and turn on the stuff that runs off their system, there is that much less demand on the grid. Even if the homeowners only use 5 kW of that power during the peak use time and into the evening, that's a tenth of a megawatt. Probably not enough to stop the blackout from happening, but enough to make a difference in the big picture.
        Anyway, overload wasn't the cause. FirstEnergy had a history of bad management, poor maintainance and was the company that owns the nuclear reactor that was shut down because the boric acid had eaten thru the 6 in steel plate in the reactor core earlier this year.
        Jim Duncan
        North Texas Renewable Energy Inc.
        Fort Worth
      • John Miggins
        Good point, I wonder who owns the transmission grid? Is it not private enterprise, the utilities although regulated they are a for profit enterprises that
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 18, 2003
          Good point, I wonder who owns the transmission grid?  Is it not private enterprise, the utilities although regulated they are a for profit enterprises that should have to maintain their own "Assets".  I would look for the usual political hay about this to get some porkbarrel projects put through or drilling in Alaska.  Only by having truly localized and distributed power will we ever be free.  this not need be a large system, in fact a homeowner in NY could invest a few hundred dollars in batteries and a charger and inverter that is charged by the grid but there when it goes down for key circuits like lighting, refrig. etc...
           
          This could be coupled with solar panels if wanted but not necessary.    Just a thought.
           
          I have a similiar system the Solar Harvester that is portable and quite good.
           
          Good discussion.
           
          John Miggins
          Harvest Solar and Wind Power
          1571 East 22 Place
          Tulsa, OK 74114
          918-743-2299 phone/fax
          918-809-7223 cell
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 12:32 PM
          Subject: RE: [hreg] Grid revisions

          I agree with your comments about the blackout being a distribution problem.
           
          According to what I have been told, Texas has it's own relatively isolated grid system. It seems to me that if congress should decide to fund upgrading of the northwestern grid or, as you suggest, a fully upgraded system, we here in Texas would end up paying for something we may not need. Does anyone know just how good the Texas system is? I know that it is not adequate to transmit all the wind farm production from northwest Texas, and there is a project to build more lines for that purpose. Rebuilding the grid system in the Northwest is going to be a hugely expensive enterprise.
           
          Michael
           
           -----Original Message-----
          From: Ooi, Han [mailto:Han.Ooi@...]
          Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 4:14 AM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [hreg] Grid revisions

          Well,
             I highly doubt solar energy would have done anything for the blackouts in the Midwest and Northeast without an upgraded transmission and distribution system.  If you have ever looked at a solar energy map, the part of the USA that receives the most solar radiation is the Southwest (200 to 250 Watts per square meter on average anually).  Only in that region do you receive enough sun throughout the year to more likely recoup your investment in solar.
           
            A more realistic solution that won't get you laughed out of your congressman's office is to propose an advanced fully upgraded national transmission grid that links a diverse set of electric generation sources including renewables such as solar, wind, hydro, and geo.  This way renewable energy that is generated in areas that are abundant in one type of renewable energy can transmit it to an area that is poor in renewable energy.
           
            As for the proposal for distributed micro generation, it would be feasible in some areas but not in others again depending on the type of renewable available.  You still need a certain economy of scale to justify the cost.  Otherwise, it smells of Chairman Mao's Great Leap Forward where every peasant family had an iron smelter in their back yard that produced crap iron.
           
            Bottom line, we are dealing with a problem of distribution, not generation.
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Steven Shepard [mailto:sbtdesigns@...]
          Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 8:48 PM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [hreg] Grid revisions

          If you need material for a letter to a politician you are welcome to the following:
           
          On Thursday, August 14, 2003 the northeastern and mid-western US experienced the largest blackout in this country's history. 
          Mass transit systems ground to a halt, oil refineries were forced to shut down, the FAA stopped flights into airports, nuclear
          reactors were taken off-line, and millions were left without power.  The blackouts affected approximately 50 million people over a
          9300-square-mile area.  New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg told reporters, "All of a sudden, a few things weren't working
          and then you realized how dependent we are on electricity."
           
          These events cascaded out of control because the electric utility grid was stressed by air-conditioning demand from the summer
          heat.  Almost the entire US was at temperatures near or above 90 degrees.  Because of the enormous energy load it did not take
          much of a trigger to send the energy delivery system down. 
           
          As one should expect during hot weather, the solar resource of this nation was excellent and nearly ideal in most of the stressed
          regions of this country.  A more widely dispersed base of solar energy could have reduced the overall delivery system stress and
          lowered the risk of catastrophic failure.  Thursday's blackouts are a wake-up call, reminding us that North America's electrical
          grid is a dysfunctional patchwork system that requires dramatic changes.  Rising electricity consumption and costs are significant
          factors in the instability of the grid. 
           
          Yet, energy saving products and technologies are widely available.  More efficient appliances, lights, better constructed buildings,
          and various forms or renewable energy such as solar and wind power can dramatically reduce the amount of electricity we draw
          from the electric utility grid at large.  In most cases these energy saving technologies can save money both in the short and long
          term.  Renewable energy is a sustainable product and service that we all need now.
           
          It is incumbent upon myself and my business as a renewable energy vendor to take this opportunity to write and shout about the
          benefits of renewable energy while electricity is on the mind of the public and the press.  We can improve the electricity
          generation and distribution system and help avoid blackouts by using less electricity and producing power independently using
          renewable energy such as solar and wind power.
           
          Now is the time for America to commit to using less electricity and to speeding the installation of distributed energy systems, such as rooftop solar power systems, fuel cells, and small wind energy power systems.  Not only would this decrease the likelihood of
          future blackouts, but it would slow global warming and reduce air pollution.
           
          If everyone in our community were to replace one of their old inefficient appliances or cars with a new energy efficient one, we
          could significantly reduce our reliance on foreign oil and the electric utility grid.  This would help avoid blackouts such as the one
          that recently affected 50 million people.
           
          The solar panels on our office that make up our independent power system provide clean, reliable electricity that doesn't contribute
          to blackouts and helps to conserve our nation's energy resources.
           
          Steve Shepard
          SBT Designs
          25840 IH-10 West #1
          Boerne, Texas 78006
          210-698-7109
          FAX: 210-698-7147
          www.sbtdesigns.com
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 8:31 PM
          Subject: [hreg] Grid revisions

          In light of the Blackout in the Northeast, politicians may be sensitive to related issues.  Now would be a good time to write your congressman and request that renewable energy be part of any Grid upgrade.  Many of the nations potential wind sites need to have grid connection.  Question.  Would the black-out have been as severe if there was more wind power on the grid?  Are wind farms less susceptible to power failures?
           
          -Chris


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          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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