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RE: [hreg] And speaking of Green Mountain...

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  • Mike Wissink
    Folks, To understand how this market works, it is helpful to understand the energy grid. The energy that enters your house is from the transmission grid filled
    Message 1 of 11 , May 15 8:20 AM
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      Folks,

      To understand how this market works, it is helpful to
      understand the energy grid.

      The energy that enters your house is from the
      transmission grid filled with energy from generating
      units. Generating units have to increase and decrease
      output in order to keep the grid stable. This is a
      mixture of units from renewable to fossil. Every
      single unit has abilities to generate energy.
      Renewable units generate energy when the conditions
      allow. (Sun shines, wind blows, rain falls) Fossil
      generation is more reliable in keeping the gird secure
      and makes up for most of the energy produced.
      Therefore, energy entering your house comes from many
      generation units. There is no way to track a single
      electron from a certain generator to a certain house.

      In Texas, renewable generation units are given
      Renewable Energy Credits (RECs) per megawatt of energy
      produced. This is not dependent on time the energy is
      created or the transmission constrains of getting it
      to your house or when your house uses it. All retail
      providers are required to purchase a certain percent
      (I think around 5%) of RECs for the energy consumed
      under their load. Green Mountain purchases RECs to
      cover the energy requirements for ALL of there load
      requirements. This is not dependent on the time the
      energy is created or the location of where the RECs
      are generated.

      Green Mountain PROMOTES renewable energy generation by
      getting more members under their contract load. By
      getting more members creates demand in the market
      place for renewable energy. This is the best
      alternative from the choices we have. (Remember who
      owns Green Mountain - BP)

      The only way to ensure that the energy you consume is
      renewable is to be off of the grid and produce energy
      yourself.

      Good luck in making your energy choice.

      Mike




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    • chasmauch@aol.com
      Mike, Thanks for that information and description of the grid. Of course it brings up other questions in my mind. Is there a marketplace where these Renewable
      Message 2 of 11 , May 15 9:41 AM
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        Mike,
        Thanks for that information and description of the grid. Of course it brings up other questions in my mind. Is there a marketplace where these Renewable Energy Credits are swapped, traded, and prestidigitized in a deliberately complex, confusing, and mysterious manner, such as happens with natural gas and other items, and in which Enron and others were involved? It has recently come to light that most of the major "reputable" stock brokerage firms have been doing all kinds of illegal - criminal, actually - rigging of markets and ripping off of the public. The natural gas market has also recently been revealed as subject to scamming by unethical traders who submitted false prices and nonexistent sales to the market which then averaged them and established "market prices." Maybe I am a bit paranoid since the Enron fiasco but - given the past history of the Wylys for engaging in shady transactions and the fact that stock brokerage and gas marketing firms are not much better, is there any chance something shady is afoot in this kind of business? As president bush says, fool you once shame on me, fool you twice ... or something like that. :-)
        Charlie
      • chasmauch@aol.com
        Apparently Mr. Brian Killkelley, a Green Mountain representative, is on this listserv, and sent me an email (copied below) in which he offered to meet with us
        Message 3 of 11 , May 15 11:44 AM
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          Apparently Mr. Brian Killkelley, a Green Mountain representative, is on this listserv, and sent me an email (copied below) in which he offered to meet with us and respond to any questions we may have. I appreciate this offer and would like to carry forward with it.

          However, it occurs to me that maybe we would not need to meet, at least initially. We could start by preparing and submitting a list of questions to him in advance, and then if there are some items we want more information on we can submit them again. It may be that we can find out most of what we need to know this way, or at least get the comparatively minor stuff out of the way and deal with any major sticking points at a meeting.

          As he says, I'm sure they have been asked about the "boycott GM" website hundreds of time and if I were them I would have prepared a list of responses to every item on that list. Naturally they would not normally bring it up when talking to a prospective customer but if someone asked, they should be able to just whip out a handy little report and say "here it is." 

          If it is OK with everyone I will prepare a preliminary draft of an email to GM (possibly by tomorrow, maybe Saturday) with some of my questions and pass it on to you all, who can than add or clarify anything further that may be needed. Once we have most of our concerns listed, we can forward it to Brian and he can respond to all of us who might be interested.

          It would probably be better at this point to take this thread off this list before we start getting complaints and send it only to interested individuals. So far I think we have Robert, Randy, and Mike. If anyone else wants to be included please let me know. Maybe we can settle this once and for all, one way or the other. I think we need to give it a shot.
          Charlie


          Mr. Mauch,
          We've addressed the (now very old) issues brought up on the boycott site in Houston and elsewhere many times over.  But we'd be happy to discuss them with you or other HREG members who have concerns or are interested in clarification.  Feel free to call me at the number below, or Tom Rawls, our Environmental VP; his number is 802-846-2560 x6154.
           
          Thanks,
           
          Brian KillKelley
          Director, Renewable Development
          Green Mountain Energy Company
          75 Green Mountain Drive
          S Burlington, VT  05403
          (802) 846-2560 x6113
          FAX: (802) 846-2561
        • Mike Wissink
          Charlie, Renewable Energy Credits are traded through ERCOT. The trading is straight forward. (i.e. bid/ask) The players are going to be retail players and
          Message 4 of 11 , May 15 12:28 PM
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            Charlie,

            Renewable Energy Credits are traded through ERCOT. The
            trading is straight forward. (i.e. bid/ask) The
            players are going to be retail players and renewable
            generators. I have not heard of any trading
            derivatives created from RECs. (but, you can create
            derivatives on anything)

            Now we can discuss Enron, the natural gas industry,
            the .com bubble, the stock advisors, and other bad
            business/political practices. Remember, when the
            economy is good ALL companies/organizations can
            survive as long as cash flow is good. When the economy
            turns down and cash flow decreases, marginal companies
            will fold and the mistakes will come to light.

            But, Green Mountain is the best alternative compared
            to the status quo. Everyone has to do what they
            believe is right.

            Conservation is the best tool to lower energy needs
            and lower the impact YOU make on this planet.

            Mike

            --- chasmauch@... wrote:
            > Mike,
            > Thanks for that information and description of the
            > grid. Of course it brings
            > up other questions in my mind. Is there a
            > marketplace where these Renewable
            > Energy Credits are swapped, traded, and
            > prestidigitized in a deliberately
            > complex, confusing, and mysterious manner, such as
            > happens with natural gas
            > and other items, and in which Enron and others were
            > involved? It has recently
            > come to light that most of the major "reputable"
            > stock brokerage firms have
            > been doing all kinds of illegal - criminal, actually
            > - rigging of markets and
            > ripping off of the public. The natural gas market
            > has also recently been
            > revealed as subject to scamming by unethical traders
            > who submitted false
            > prices and nonexistent sales to the market which
            > then averaged them and
            > established "market prices." Maybe I am a bit
            > paranoid since the Enron fiasco
            > but - given the past history of the Wylys for
            > engaging in shady transactions
            > and the fact that stock brokerage and gas marketing
            > firms are not much
            > better, is there any chance something shady is afoot
            > in this kind of
            > business? As president bush says, fool you once
            > shame on me, fool you twice
            > ... or something like that. :-)
            > Charlie
            >


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            The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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          • Randy Scott
            Since the topic of this group is “renewable energy” then it seems to me like a worthwhile use of bandwidth. I’m a member of another yahoo group which is
            Message 5 of 11 , May 15 1:48 PM
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              Since the topic of this group is “renewable energy” then it seems to me like a worthwhile use of bandwidth.

               

              I’m a member of another yahoo group which is effectively a fan club for the folk singer Loreena McKennitt. One time, a few years ago, she got online with us & answered all our silly questions. The questions & answers were then compiled into an FAQ file that is posted in the files section of our yahoo group page.

               

              Since GME’s “stated” purpose is to provide and promote renewable energy, I would think that any answers Mr. KillKelley gives might be interesting to all or most members here. Granted, I suspect that most of it will be “sales pitch”, but some of it might be enlightening. For example, I would like to ask him why my price per KwH just went up.

               

              Randy Scott

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: chasmauch@... [mailto:chasmauch@...]
              Sent
              : Thursday, May 15, 2003 1:45 PM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [hreg] And speaking of Green Mountain...

               

              Apparently Mr. Brian Killkelley, a Green Mountain representative, is on this listserv, and sent me an email (copied below) in which he offered to meet with us and respond to any questions we may have. I appreciate this offer and would like to carry forward with it.

              However, it occurs to me that maybe we would not need to meet, at least initially. We could start by preparing and submitting a list of questions to him in advance, and then if there are some items we want more information on we can submit them again. It may be that we can find out most of what we need to know this way, or at least get the comparatively minor stuff out of the way and deal with any major sticking points at a meeting.

              As he says, I'm sure they have been asked about the "boycott GM" website hundreds of time and if I were them I would have prepared a list of responses to every item on that list. Naturally they would not normally bring it up when talking to a prospective customer but if someone asked, they should be able to just whip out a handy little report and say "here it is." 

              If it is OK with everyone I will prepare a preliminary draft of an email to GM (possibly by tomorrow, maybe Saturday) with some of my questions and pass it on to you all, who can than add or clarify anything further that may be needed. Once we have most of our concerns listed, we can forward it to Brian and he can respond to all of us who might be interested.

              It would probably be better at this point to take this thread off this list before we start getting complaints and send it only to interested individuals. So far I think we have Robert, Randy, and Mike. If anyone else wants to be included please let me know. Maybe we can settle this once and for all, one way or the other. I think we need to give it a shot.
              Charlie


              Mr. Mauch,

              We've addressed the (now very old) issues brought up on the boycott site in Houston and elsewhere many times over.  But we'd be happy to discuss them with you or other HREG members who have concerns or are interested in clarification.  Feel free to call me at the number below, or Tom Rawls, our Environmental VP; his number is 802-846-2560 x6154.
               
              Thanks,
               
              Brian KillKelley
              Director, Renewable Development
              Green Mountain Energy Company
              75 Green Mountain Drive
              S Burlington, VT  05403
              (802) 846-2560 x6113
              FAX: (802) 846-2561



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • Steven Deterling
              Charlie Please include me on your responses from GME. My email is: rocketman1@wildmail.com Thanks Steven Care2 make the world greener! Meet 30,000 Eco-Friendly
              Message 6 of 11 , May 15 8:30 PM
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                Charlie

                Please include me on your responses from GME.
                My email is: rocketman1@...

                Thanks

                Steven



                Care2 make the world greener!
                Meet 30,000 Eco-Friendly Individuals:
                http://www.Care2.com/connect/
              • Roxanne Boyer
                We also use GM as our electric provider. I think that it makes a statement that people are willing to pay more for clean, secure, renewable energy - even if
                Message 7 of 11 , May 15 8:39 PM
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                  We also use GM as our electric provider.  I think that it makes a statement that people are willing to pay more for clean, secure, renewable energy - even if the mechanism is not perfect.  As a company, we have found the GM service representatives to be disorganized and sometimes inept, this may be due in part because the company is relatively new - I expect they will improve with experience. 
                   
                  I would be interested in what Mr. Killkelly has to say.  I read the statements on the "boycott GM" web page and found most of them silly. 
                   
                  Maybe a good discussion during our next meeting would be, "What is renewable energy?"  Does it include turbines powered by landfill gas?  Does it include hydroelectric dams?  Does it include waste incinerators? 
                   
                  Is it bad for big oil companies to get involved in renewable energy?  I have heard that the CEO of BP has made statements and decisions in favor of renewable energy at the expense of immediate profit that could cause the shareholders to hang him on a rope.  I have heard similar pushes for renewable energy for the Shell executives.  (Exxon, unfortunately, is a different story).  I'm behind moving the big energy companies into the renewable sector.  They may be the only organizations that have the resources to transition the world to a renewable economy.
                   
                  -Chris

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 1:44 PM
                  Subject: Re: [hreg] And speaking of Green Mountain...

                  Apparently Mr. Brian Killkelley, a Green Mountain representative, is on this listserv, and sent me an email (copied below) in which he offered to meet with us and respond to any questions we may have. I appreciate this offer and would like to carry forward with it.

                  However, it occurs to me that maybe we would not need to meet, at least initially. We could start by preparing and submitting a list of questions to him in advance, and then if there are some items we want more information on we can submit them again. It may be that we can find out most of what we need to know this way, or at least get the comparatively minor stuff out of the way and deal with any major sticking points at a meeting.

                  As he says, I'm sure they have been asked about the "boycott GM" website hundreds of time and if I were them I would have prepared a list of responses to every item on that list. Naturally they would not normally bring it up when talking to a prospective customer but if someone asked, they should be able to just whip out a handy little report and say "here it is." 

                  If it is OK with everyone I will prepare a preliminary draft of an email to GM (possibly by tomorrow, maybe Saturday) with some of my questions and pass it on to you all, who can than add or clarify anything further that may be needed. Once we have most of our concerns listed, we can forward it to Brian and he can respond to all of us who might be interested.

                  It would probably be better at this point to take this thread off this list before we start getting complaints and send it only to interested individuals. So far I think we have Robert, Randy, and Mike. If anyone else wants to be included please let me know. Maybe we can settle this once and for all, one way or the other. I think we need to give it a shot.
                  Charlie


                  Mr. Mauch,
                  We've addressed the (now very old) issues brought up on the boycott site in Houston and elsewhere many times over.  But we'd be happy to discuss them with you or other HREG members who have concerns or are interested in clarification.  Feel free to call me at the number below, or Tom Rawls, our Environmental VP; his number is 802-846-2560 x6154.
                   
                  Thanks,
                   
                  Brian KillKelley
                  Director, Renewable Development
                  Green Mountain Energy Company
                  75 Green Mountain Drive
                  S Burlington, VT  05403
                  (802) 846-2560 x6113
                  FAX: (802) 846-2561


                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                • Michael Christie
                  Charlie, Please include me in this list. I am very interested in what GM has to say. Thank you Michael Christie mchristi@fbtc.net ... From: chasmauch@aol.com
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 16 12:29 PM
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                    Charlie,
                     
                    Please include me in this list. I am very interested in what GM has to say.
                     
                    Thank you
                    Michael Christie
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: chasmauch@... [mailto:chasmauch@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 1:45 PM
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [hreg] And speaking of Green Mountain...

                    Apparently Mr. Brian Killkelley, a Green Mountain representative, is on this listserv, and sent me an email (copied below) in which he offered to meet with us and respond to any questions we may have. I appreciate this offer and would like to carry forward with it.

                    However, it occurs to me that maybe we would not need to meet, at least initially. We could start by preparing and submitting a list of questions to him in advance, and then if there are some items we want more information on we can submit them again. It may be that we can find out most of what we need to know this way, or at least get the comparatively minor stuff out of the way and deal with any major sticking points at a meeting.

                    As he says, I'm sure they have been asked about the "boycott GM" website hundreds of time and if I were them I would have prepared a list of responses to every item on that list. Naturally they would not normally bring it up when talking to a prospective customer but if someone asked, they should be able to just whip out a handy little report and say "here it is." 

                    If it is OK with everyone I will prepare a preliminary draft of an email to GM (possibly by tomorrow, maybe Saturday) with some of my questions and pass it on to you all, who can than add or clarify anything further that may be needed. Once we have most of our concerns listed, we can forward it to Brian and he can respond to all of us who might be interested.

                    It would probably be better at this point to take this thread off this list before we start getting complaints and send it only to interested individuals. So far I think we have Robert, Randy, and Mike. If anyone else wants to be included please let me know. Maybe we can settle this once and for all, one way or the other. I think we need to give it a shot.
                    Charlie


                    Mr. Mauch,
                    We've addressed the (now very old) issues brought up on the boycott site in Houston and elsewhere many times over.  But we'd be happy to discuss them with you or other HREG members who have concerns or are interested in clarification.  Feel free to call me at the number below, or Tom Rawls, our Environmental VP; his number is 802-846-2560 x6154.
                     
                    Thanks,
                     
                    Brian KillKelley
                    Director, Renewable Development
                    Green Mountain Energy Company
                    75 Green Mountain Drive
                    S Burlington, VT  05403
                    (802) 846-2560 x6113
                    FAX: (802) 846-2561


                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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