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  • Robert Bruce Warburton
    One reason that Texas might get coal from the states west of Texas is that subbituminous coal is lower in sulfur and more common out west. Bituminous coal is
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 14, 2002
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      One reason that Texas might get coal from the states west of Texas is that
      subbituminous coal is lower in sulfur and more common out west. Bituminous coal is
      higher in heat than subbituminous, but higher in sulfur. Lignite is lower in heat
      than subbituminous but higher in sulfur. According to the 1981 edition of National
      Geographic that I read recently. For lignite coal to be competitive, a lignite coal
      plant was built next to a lignite coal mine. This was in Texas, which has a lot of
      lignite coal. The lignite coal in the U.S., is primarity south or west of Memphis
      Tennessee. However, even with being next to a coal mine, the lignite coal plant was
      not cost competitive and was shut down.

      "Charles L. Seaman" wrote:

      > Date kwh Cents/kwh
      > 1/16/02 510 9.15
      > 3/15/02 510 8.11
      > 4/15/02 500 8.09
      > 5/15/02 720 8.48
      > 6/13/02 880 8.64
      > 7/16/02 1330 8.89
      > 8/13/02 1390 8.91
      > Reliant Energy HL&P (Now Centerpoint)
      >
      > ----------
      > >From: Ryan McMullan <mcmullan@...>
      > >To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: Re: [hreg] Your questions - comments
      > >Date: Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 11:15 AM
      > >
      >
      > > We are coming up on a year since deregulation of energy production
      > > in Texas, so probably the simplest, yet effective, comparison would be to
      > > show the monthly price for all of the providers for "x" kWh per month and
      > > the yearly price. In fact, a marketing angle Green Mountain could use
      > > would be to show the cost per kWh for different companies, which jump
      > > around each month, and theirs, which stays the same. Of course, the real
      > > test is going to be what the prices do over the next five years as
      > > companies can lower prices to initially get customers and present well on
      > > the www.powertochoose.org website. Actually, looking closely at the
      > > figures on the website, which vary widely (from $0.08/kWh to $0.95/kWh),
      > > these are only estimates submitted by the companies for 1000kWh usage per
      > > month. They are not actually a measurement of anything.
      > > So lets get some real numbers together. My historical data from
      > > Green Mountain since January is:
      > > MonthkWhCostCents/kWh
      > > Jan-02710$75.3410.6
      > > Feb-02520$56.4710.9
      > > Mar-02590$56.849.6
      > > Apr-02600$57.729.6
      > > May-021480$135.059.1
      > > Jun-021320$120.999.2
      > > Jul-021950$176.359.0
      > > Aug-022240$201.839.0
      > > Sep-022140$193.049.0
      > >
      > > How does this compare to others with Green Mountain or other providers?
      > >
      > > Ryan
      > >
      > > P.S.--Would it be handy to have one of the Green Mountain guys on this
      > > list? Or the other companies for that matter? We could extend them a
      > > conditional invitation, provided they don't send advertisements and the
      > > like. We seem to be passing back and forth a lot of "I heard" information,
      > > so it might be handy to get some info from the sources (through a biased
      > > filter, of course, but we can adjust for that).
      > >
      > > At 08:24 AM 10/13/2002 -0400, you wrote:
      > >>Mike, James, et al,
      > >>
      > >>It almost seems like they are trying to confuse us, and the more they
      > >>"clarify" things the worse it gets. It's kind of like all the options you
      > >>have for phone service. I am so confused about that I just stay with SW
      > >>Bell - not even sure about that but I think that's who I'm with - and hell
      > >>I'm an engineer so if I am confused I feel sure a lot of other people are
      > >>too. It's just too hard and too confusing and too much trouble to try to
      > >>do comparison shopping. I'm not even sure it can be done.
      > >>
      > >>It can't be that hard but I can't find any literature available from any
      > >>of the service providers or any regulatory agency that makes it simple. If
      > >>one Reliant something or other is different from the other Reliant
      > >>something or other why are their names so similar? Was one a spin-off from
      > >>the other? Why such similar names and then try to explain to us they are
      > >>different? What is going on with that?
      > >>
      > >>And it's truly strange that between a third and a half of all the
      > >>supplier's fuel (except GM) comes from coal. I think someone said Texas is
      > >>a net importer of energy, and this is the reason. We don't export much
      > >>(any?) but started bringing in huge amounts from Wyoming or somewhere up
      > >>there back during the energy crunch when gas prices went through the roof.
      > >>I think that had something to do with the bogus contracts Oscar Wyatt made
      > >>with San Antonio, Corpus Christi, and other towns and finally had to
      > >>wiggle out of. It helps to have good lawyers. Or does some of that come
      > >>from Texas lignite, a very inferior, low BTU, high pollutant, but cheap
      > >>form of coal?
      > >>
      > >>The 10% nuclear from everyone (except GM) I will not even comment on.
      > >>
      > >>And I saw in the Chronicle yesterday that natural gas futures (almost half
      > >>of everyone's fuel) went up Friday by 31.8 cents to $4.146 with the
      > >>explanation given that a cold front is forecast to sweep into the Midwest
      > >>this weekend. I wonder how high it will get this winter, and how that will
      > >>affect everyone's price on the famous fuel cost pass-through adjustment or
      > >>whatever they call it? Everyone but GM, that is.
      > >>
      > >>I just feel sure in my gut that GM is the way to go for all kinds of
      > >>reasons, probably even including price if they could make their case in a
      > >>logical form but no one seems to be able to do that. I have complained to
      > >>several GM people I have met that they may need a really good PR firm to
      > >>get this across to all us doofuses out here who can't seem to do it on our
      > >>own. Or maybe that's the problem - they need to fire their PR guys and get
      > >>some new ones that can think down here on my level. Whatever. It's all
      > >>pretty irritating.
      > >>Charlie
      > >>
      > >>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > >>ADVERTISEMENT
      > >><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=212804.2460941.3878106.2225242/D=egroupweb/S=1705064177
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      > :HM/A=
      > >
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      > 3/R=1/*ht
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      > >>
      > >>34ec499.jpg
      > >>
      > >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
      > >><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Steven Shepard
      One of the most dirty electric power generation plants in the USA is near Pleasanton, Texas and is owned by Karnes Electric. The plant was built right next to
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 15, 2002
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        One of the most dirty electric power generation plants in the USA is near
        Pleasanton, Texas and is owned by Karnes Electric. The plant was built
        right next to a lignite coal mine that has been in operation for over fifty
        years. This plant literally spews waste out a 300 foot tall stack. The
        rural landscape around this plant is littered with the refuse from this
        stack. This plant is allowed to continue to operate because they were
        allowed to grandfather their operation, because they are the only utility in
        the region at this time and because of regional political influence.

        Karnes Electric is a rural co-op utility operating in ten counties supplying
        power to several small cities and numerous rural residents. While each user
        is supposed to be an owner of this co-op in fact rigid control is maintained
        over this co-op by local politicians and land owners in and around Karnes
        County.

        We fought for four years to force Karnes Electric to allow one of our
        customers to intertie his wind power system. That battle continues today
        with Karnes Electric forcing our customer to pay for the insurance to
        connect his system as a commercial electric provider when in fact it is
        entirely residential.

        SBT Designs
        25840 IH-10 West #1
        Boerne, Texas 78006
        210-698-7109
        FAX: 210-698-7147
        www.sbtdesigns.com

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Robert Bruce Warburton" <warbur2@...>
        To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 7:07 PM
        Subject: [hreg] Re: Response


        > One reason that Texas might get coal from the states west of Texas is that
        > subbituminous coal is lower in sulfur and more common out west. Bituminous
        coal is
        > higher in heat than subbituminous, but higher in sulfur. Lignite is lower
        in heat
        > than subbituminous but higher in sulfur. According to the 1981 edition of
        National
        > Geographic that I read recently. For lignite coal to be competitive, a
        lignite coal
        > plant was built next to a lignite coal mine. This was in Texas, which has
        a lot of
        > lignite coal. The lignite coal in the U.S., is primarity south or west of
        Memphis
        > Tennessee. However, even with being next to a coal mine, the lignite coal
        plant was
        > not cost competitive and was shut down.
        >
        > "Charles L. Seaman" wrote:
        >
        > > Date kwh Cents/kwh
        > > 1/16/02 510 9.15
        > > 3/15/02 510 8.11
        > > 4/15/02 500 8.09
        > > 5/15/02 720 8.48
        > > 6/13/02 880 8.64
        > > 7/16/02 1330 8.89
        > > 8/13/02 1390 8.91
        > > Reliant Energy HL&P (Now Centerpoint)
        > >
        > > ----------
        > > >From: Ryan McMullan <mcmullan@...>
        > > >To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        > > >Subject: Re: [hreg] Your questions - comments
        > > >Date: Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 11:15 AM
        > > >
        > >
        > > > We are coming up on a year since deregulation of energy
        production
        > > > in Texas, so probably the simplest, yet effective, comparison would be
        to
        > > > show the monthly price for all of the providers for "x" kWh per month
        and
        > > > the yearly price. In fact, a marketing angle Green Mountain could use
        > > > would be to show the cost per kWh for different companies, which jump
        > > > around each month, and theirs, which stays the same. Of course, the
        real
        > > > test is going to be what the prices do over the next five years as
        > > > companies can lower prices to initially get customers and present well
        on
        > > > the www.powertochoose.org website. Actually, looking closely at the
        > > > figures on the website, which vary widely (from $0.08/kWh to
        $0.95/kWh),
        > > > these are only estimates submitted by the companies for 1000kWh usage
        per
        > > > month. They are not actually a measurement of anything.
        > > > So lets get some real numbers together. My historical data
        from
        > > > Green Mountain since January is:
        > > > MonthkWhCostCents/kWh
        > > > Jan-02710$75.3410.6
        > > > Feb-02520$56.4710.9
        > > > Mar-02590$56.849.6
        > > > Apr-02600$57.729.6
        > > > May-021480$135.059.1
        > > > Jun-021320$120.999.2
        > > > Jul-021950$176.359.0
        > > > Aug-022240$201.839.0
        > > > Sep-022140$193.049.0
        > > >
        > > > How does this compare to others with Green Mountain or other
        providers?
        > > >
        > > > Ryan
        > > >
        > > > P.S.--Would it be handy to have one of the Green Mountain guys on this
        > > > list? Or the other companies for that matter? We could extend them a
        > > > conditional invitation, provided they don't send advertisements and
        the
        > > > like. We seem to be passing back and forth a lot of "I heard"
        information,
        > > > so it might be handy to get some info from the sources (through a
        biased
        > > > filter, of course, but we can adjust for that).
        > > >
        > > > At 08:24 AM 10/13/2002 -0400, you wrote:
        > > >>Mike, James, et al,
        > > >>
        > > >>It almost seems like they are trying to confuse us, and the more they
        > > >>"clarify" things the worse it gets. It's kind of like all the options
        you
        > > >>have for phone service. I am so confused about that I just stay with
        SW
        > > >>Bell - not even sure about that but I think that's who I'm with - and
        hell
        > > >>I'm an engineer so if I am confused I feel sure a lot of other people
        are
        > > >>too. It's just too hard and too confusing and too much trouble to try
        to
        > > >>do comparison shopping. I'm not even sure it can be done.
        > > >>
        > > >>It can't be that hard but I can't find any literature available from
        any
        > > >>of the service providers or any regulatory agency that makes it
        simple. If
        > > >>one Reliant something or other is different from the other Reliant
        > > >>something or other why are their names so similar? Was one a spin-off
        from
        > > >>the other? Why such similar names and then try to explain to us they
        are
        > > >>different? What is going on with that?
        > > >>
        > > >>And it's truly strange that between a third and a half of all the
        > > >>supplier's fuel (except GM) comes from coal. I think someone said
        Texas is
        > > >>a net importer of energy, and this is the reason. We don't export much
        > > >>(any?) but started bringing in huge amounts from Wyoming or somewhere
        up
        > > >>there back during the energy crunch when gas prices went through the
        roof.
        > > >>I think that had something to do with the bogus contracts Oscar Wyatt
        made
        > > >>with San Antonio, Corpus Christi, and other towns and finally had to
        > > >>wiggle out of. It helps to have good lawyers. Or does some of that
        come
        > > >>from Texas lignite, a very inferior, low BTU, high pollutant, but
        cheap
        > > >>form of coal?
        > > >>
        > > >>The 10% nuclear from everyone (except GM) I will not even comment on.
        > > >>
        > > >>And I saw in the Chronicle yesterday that natural gas futures (almost
        half
        > > >>of everyone's fuel) went up Friday by 31.8 cents to $4.146 with the
        > > >>explanation given that a cold front is forecast to sweep into the
        Midwest
        > > >>this weekend. I wonder how high it will get this winter, and how that
        will
        > > >>affect everyone's price on the famous fuel cost pass-through
        adjustment or
        > > >>whatever they call it? Everyone but GM, that is.
        > > >>
        > > >>I just feel sure in my gut that GM is the way to go for all kinds of
        > > >>reasons, probably even including price if they could make their case
        in a
        > > >>logical form but no one seems to be able to do that. I have complained
        to
        > > >>several GM people I have met that they may need a really good PR firm
        to
        > > >>get this across to all us doofuses out here who can't seem to do it on
        our
        > > >>own. Or maybe that's the problem - they need to fire their PR guys and
        get
        > > >>some new ones that can think down here on my level. Whatever. It's all
        > > >>pretty irritating.
        > > >>Charlie
        > > >>
        > > >>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > >>ADVERTISEMENT
        > >
        >><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=212804.2460941.3878106.2225242/D=egroupweb/S=170506
        4177
        > > :HM/A=
        > > >
        810373/R=0/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs>34ec395.jpg
        > >
        >><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=212804.2460941.3878106.2225242/D=egroupweb/S=170506
        4177
        > > :HM/A=
        > > >
        > >
        810373/R=1/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs>34ec421.jpg<htt
        > > p://rd.ya
        > > >
        > >
        hoo.com/M=212804.2460941.3878106.2225242/D=egroupweb/S=1705064177:HM/A=81037
        > > 3/R=1/*ht
        > > > tp://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs>
        > > >>
        > > >>34ec499.jpg
        > > >>
        > > >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
        > > >><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • mark r. johnson
        ... which has a lot of ... west of Memphis ... coal plant was ... Robert, I wonder if you could provide the name of that lignite plant and its owner if
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 17, 2002
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          --- In hreg@y..., Robert Bruce Warburton <warbur2@e...> wrote:
          > ...a lignite coal
          > plant was built next to a lignite coal mine. This was in Texas,
          which has a lot of
          > lignite coal. The lignite coal in the U.S., is primarity south or
          west of Memphis
          > Tennessee. However, even with being next to a coal mine, the lignite
          coal plant was
          > not cost competitive and was shut down.

          Robert, I wonder if you could provide the name of that lignite plant
          and its owner if possible. I'm kind of a utility nerd and love to
          collect info such as this. Was this plant shut down prior to the
          National Geographic article in 1981? I thought utilities always used
          to successfully bury their mistakes.

          I understand Texas Utilities owns several lignite plants and still
          operates them. The old Houston Light and Power (now Centerpoint) built
          *one* lignite plant, I think it was in Limestone County halfway to
          Dallas. Hearsay was that was built on a mediocre vein of lignite,
          after 30 years of operation there would be none left. I have made
          myself a mental note to watch *that* one for closure, it hasn't
          happened yet.

          Can't think of anything good to say about coal and lignite, except
          cheapness. They are Nature's soup of odd materials, and inherently far
          more polluting than natural gas. Coal kills people more than other
          traditional fuels, that is not a theory but a fact. I think one of the
          best things to do for the environment would be to find a way to close
          down all coal plants as soon as practical to do so, I would rather see
          nuclear plants supply electricity rather than coal, based on
          environmental and safety reasons.

          Best wishes -- Mark J.
        • Robert Bruce Warburton
          Actually, I believe the coal plant was in East Texas and it was in the last few years not before 1981 that it was shutdown. Over 90 percent of our new power
          Message 4 of 4 , Oct 17, 2002
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            Actually, I believe the coal plant was in East Texas and it was in the last
            few years not before 1981 that it was shutdown. Over 90 percent of our new
            power plants, from what I read, are natural gas fired. Since there has not
            been a new nuclear reactor ordered in this country since 1978, which was
            before Three Mile Island, I assume that the bulk of the non-gas fired power
            plants are coal fired. One thing I wonder about is has anyone every thought
            of using the warm water that comes from nuclear and fossil fuel power plants
            and using solar power to convert the warm water back into steam. Additional
            electricity could be produced.

            "mark r. johnson" wrote:

            > --- In hreg@y..., Robert Bruce Warburton <warbur2@e...> wrote:
            > > ...a lignite coal
            > > plant was built next to a lignite coal mine. This was in Texas,
            > which has a lot of
            > > lignite coal. The lignite coal in the U.S., is primarity south or
            > west of Memphis
            > > Tennessee. However, even with being next to a coal mine, the lignite
            > coal plant was
            > > not cost competitive and was shut down.
            >
            > Robert, I wonder if you could provide the name of that lignite plant
            > and its owner if possible. I'm kind of a utility nerd and love to
            > collect info such as this. Was this plant shut down prior to the
            > National Geographic article in 1981? I thought utilities always used
            > to successfully bury their mistakes.
            >
            > I understand Texas Utilities owns several lignite plants and still
            > operates them. The old Houston Light and Power (now Centerpoint) built
            > *one* lignite plant, I think it was in Limestone County halfway to
            > Dallas. Hearsay was that was built on a mediocre vein of lignite,
            > after 30 years of operation there would be none left. I have made
            > myself a mental note to watch *that* one for closure, it hasn't
            > happened yet.
            >
            > Can't think of anything good to say about coal and lignite, except
            > cheapness. They are Nature's soup of odd materials, and inherently far
            > more polluting than natural gas. Coal kills people more than other
            > traditional fuels, that is not a theory but a fact. I think one of the
            > best things to do for the environment would be to find a way to close
            > down all coal plants as soon as practical to do so, I would rather see
            > nuclear plants supply electricity rather than coal, based on
            > environmental and safety reasons.
            >
            > Best wishes -- Mark J.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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