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Re: [hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables

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  • ChasMauch@aol.com
    In a message dated 7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Christine, One of the major problems here is that the fossil fuels industry (as an example)
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 10 8:50 AM
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      In a message dated 7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time, cjerko@... writes:


      Subj:[hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables
      Date:7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time
      From:cjerko@...
      Reply-to:hreg@yahoogroups.com
      To:hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Sent from the Internet



      Ok, this may require a thinking cap.

      As i mentioned before, i will try to get my company to invest in renewables
      once my homework is complete.  Currently, any way i slice it, i cannot come
      close to a 9% return on the investment.  There is no way Tractebel nor Suez
      would invest out of the goodness of their hearts...share holders - you know.

      So, have you ever heard of a companies stock value increasing (maybe
      Ex-RON's)from going green or making green announcemetns?  Can you think of
      any other extrinsic values from investing in renewables that are
      quantifiable?

      Any help would be much appreciated,
      Christine




      Christine,

      One of the major problems here is that the fossil fuels industry (as an example) has done such a good job of hiding their true costs and passing them on to others and the general public as externalities that it is hard to explain to the public what the true costs are and therefore to calculate true economics, since the system does not give much value for intangibles such as long-term social benefits.

      Our entire economy is based on the wasteful consumption of cheap energy, so for openers, you might try explaining the real cost of gasoline at the pump. It is not $1.50 or so - it is more like $5 to $15 per gallon, depending on how far you want to follow the money. There have been attempts to quantify these costs, and you will find one very good example entitled The Real Price of Gas by the International Center for Technology Assessment at the following website:

      http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm

      Of course under our present system of corporate capitalism that is focused on short-term profit (next quarter earnings) it is hard to justify spending present dollars for future gain, especially "intangibles" such as social benefits. Such things as preventive maintenance suffer from the same handicap (present costs for future benefits) but at some point in the near future we are going to have to recognize the basic fact that such a system is not sustainable and try to change the way the system works. That is a real problem. Good luck, and please let me know if you find a way to do it.

      Charlie Mauch
    • EXT-Mendell, Christopher N
      Check out the Green Century Fund. They make a profit from green and renewable energy companies. ... From: Christine Jerko [mailto:cjerko@hotmail.com] Sent:
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 10 8:52 AM
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        Check out the Green Century Fund. They make a profit from "green" and
        renewable energy companies.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Christine Jerko [mailto:cjerko@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:38 AM
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables


        Ok, this may require a thinking cap.

        As i mentioned before, i will try to get my company to invest in renewables
        once my homework is complete. Currently, any way i slice it, i cannot come
        close to a 9% return on the investment. There is no way Tractebel nor Suez
        would invest out of the goodness of their hearts...share holders - you know.

        So, have you ever heard of a companies stock value increasing (maybe
        Ex-RON's)from going green or making green announcemetns? Can you think of
        any other extrinsic values from investing in renewables that are
        quantifiable?

        Any help would be much appreciated,
        Christine



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      • Joseph Phelan
        As an extreme example, Buckminster Fuller, in the book Critical Path, calculates the cost to create the BTUs in oil by adding up all of the pressure over time
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 10 11:46 AM
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          As an extreme example, Buckminster Fuller, in the book Critical Path, calculates the cost to create the BTUs in oil by adding up all of the pressure over time required by nature to "cook" it up so to speak, then assigns a retail equivalent value of 10 cents per kWh resulting in a whopping $1 million per barrel of oil.  Clearly there's an externality limit of common sense that starts before 300 million years ago.
           
          For more on externalities see the work of economist Herman E. Daly.  Marx worked in the 19th century on economic ideas which affected the 20th century in the negative, hopefully Daly's work will have as much influence on the 21st century but to the positive.
           
           - JP
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:50 AM
          Subject: Re: [hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables

          In a message dated 7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time, cjerko@... writes:


          Subj:[hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables
          Date:7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time
          From:cjerko@...
          Reply-to:hreg@yahoogroups.com
          To:hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Sent from the Internet



          Ok, this may require a thinking cap.

          As i mentioned before, i will try to get my company to invest in renewables
          once my homework is complete.  Currently, any way i slice it, i cannot come
          close to a 9% return on the investment.  There is no way Tractebel nor Suez
          would invest out of the goodness of their hearts...share holders - you know.

          So, have you ever heard of a companies stock value increasing (maybe
          Ex-RON's)from going green or making green announcemetns?  Can you think of
          any other extrinsic values from investing in renewables that are
          quantifiable?

          Any help would be much appreciated,
          Christine




          Christine,

          One of the major problems here is that the fossil fuels industry (as an example) has done such a good job of hiding their true costs and passing them on to others and the general public as externalities that it is hard to explain to the public what the true costs are and therefore to calculate true economics, since the system does not give much value for intangibles such as long-term social benefits.

          Our entire economy is based on the wasteful consumption of cheap energy, so for openers, you might try explaining the real cost of gasoline at the pump. It is not $1.50 or so - it is more like $5 to $15 per gallon, depending on how far you want to follow the money. There have been attempts to quantify these costs, and you will find one very good example entitled The Real Price of Gas by the International Center for Technology Assessment at the following website:

          http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm

          Of course under our present system of corporate capitalism that is focused on short-term profit (next quarter earnings) it is hard to justify spending present dollars for future gain, especially "intangibles" such as social benefits. Such things as preventive maintenance suffer from the same handicap (present costs for future benefits) but at some point in the near future we are going to have to recognize the basic fact that such a system is not sustainable and try to change the way the system works. That is a real problem. Good luck, and please let me know if you find a way to do it.

          Charlie Mauch

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Kevin L. Conlin
          In the context of the question asked, what was your point? ... From: Joseph Phelan To: hreg@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 1:46 PM Subject: Re:
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 10 12:16 PM
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            In the context of the question asked, what was your point?
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 1:46 PM
            Subject: Re: [hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables

            As an extreme example, Buckminster Fuller, in the book Critical Path, calculates the cost to create the BTUs in oil by adding up all of the pressure over time required by nature to "cook" it up so to speak, then assigns a retail equivalent value of 10 cents per kWh resulting in a whopping $1 million per barrel of oil.  Clearly there's an externality limit of common sense that starts before 300 million years ago.
             
            For more on externalities see the work of economist Herman E. Daly.  Marx worked in the 19th century on economic ideas which affected the 20th century in the negative, hopefully Daly's work will have as much influence on the 21st century but to the positive.
             
             - JP
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:50 AM
            Subject: Re: [hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables

            In a message dated 7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time, cjerko@... writes:


            Subj:[hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables
            Date:7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time
            From:cjerko@...
            Reply-to:hreg@yahoogroups.com
            To:hreg@yahoogroups.com
            Sent from the Internet



            Ok, this may require a thinking cap.

            As i mentioned before, i will try to get my company to invest in renewables
            once my homework is complete.  Currently, any way i slice it, i cannot come
            close to a 9% return on the investment.  There is no way Tractebel nor Suez
            would invest out of the goodness of their hearts...share holders - you know.

            So, have you ever heard of a companies stock value increasing (maybe
            Ex-RON's)from going green or making green announcemetns?  Can you think of
            any other extrinsic values from investing in renewables that are
            quantifiable?

            Any help would be much appreciated,
            Christine




            Christine,

            One of the major problems here is that the fossil fuels industry (as an example) has done such a good job of hiding their true costs and passing them on to others and the general public as externalities that it is hard to explain to the public what the true costs are and therefore to calculate true economics, since the system does not give much value for intangibles such as long-term social benefits.

            Our entire economy is based on the wasteful consumption of cheap energy, so for openers, you might try explaining the real cost of gasoline at the pump. It is not $1.50 or so - it is more like $5 to $15 per gallon, depending on how far you want to follow the money. There have been attempts to quantify these costs, and you will find one very good example entitled The Real Price of Gas by the International Center for Technology Assessment at the following website:

            http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm

            Of course under our present system of corporate capitalism that is focused on short-term profit (next quarter earnings) it is hard to justify spending present dollars for future gain, especially "intangibles" such as social benefits. Such things as preventive maintenance suffer from the same handicap (present costs for future benefits) but at some point in the near future we are going to have to recognize the basic fact that such a system is not sustainable and try to change the way the system works. That is a real problem. Good luck, and please let me know if you find a way to do it.

            Charlie Mauch

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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