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Re: [hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables

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  • Steven Shepard
    You may want to check this out - Customer-sited Photovoltaics: State Market Analysis. Appears to be done by creditable sources. About six pages. Two pages
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 10, 2002
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      You may want to check this out - Customer-sited Photovoltaics: State Market
      Analysis. Appears to be done by creditable sources. About six pages. Two
      pages of that are informative tables. Very concise and to the point.
      Many interesting points are made in this analysis. Not much has changed in
      Texas since 1996. In fact, we don't even rank in the top 14 states.

      http://www.irecusa.org/articles/static/1/binaries/cspv2002final.doc

      SBT Designs
      25840 IH-10 West #1
      Boerne, Texas 78006
      210-698-7109
      FAX: 210-698-7147
      www.sbtdesigns.com

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Christine Jerko" <cjerko@...>
      To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:38 AM
      Subject: [hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables


      > Ok, this may require a thinking cap.
      >
      > As i mentioned before, i will try to get my company to invest in
      renewables
      > once my homework is complete. Currently, any way i slice it, i cannot
      come
      > close to a 9% return on the investment. There is no way Tractebel nor
      Suez
      > would invest out of the goodness of their hearts...share holders - you
      know.
      >
      > So, have you ever heard of a companies stock value increasing (maybe
      > Ex-RON's)from going green or making green announcemetns? Can you think of
      > any other extrinsic values from investing in renewables that are
      > quantifiable?
      >
      > Any help would be much appreciated,
      > Christine
      >
      >
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >
    • Randy Lack, ECB
      Christine, Sorry to jump into the conversation, but there a lot of ways your companies can invest in the environment with sound return on investments in the
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 10, 2002
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        Christine,

        Sorry to jump into the conversation, but there a lot of ways your companies
        can invest in the environment with sound return on investments in the
        environmental space. I have a presentation that discusses the fact that
        companies with green programs outperform those without a sound green program
        in the stock market. It is a real idea, and is now a basis for a lot of
        decisions made by some mutual fund companies.

        Regards,


        Randy



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Christine Jerko [mailto:cjerko@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:38 AM
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables

        Ok, this may require a thinking cap.

        As i mentioned before, i will try to get my company to invest in renewables
        once my homework is complete. Currently, any way i slice it, i cannot come
        close to a 9% return on the investment. There is no way Tractebel nor Suez
        would invest out of the goodness of their hearts...share holders - you know.

        So, have you ever heard of a companies stock value increasing (maybe
        Ex-RON's)from going green or making green announcemetns? Can you think of
        any other extrinsic values from investing in renewables that are
        quantifiable?

        Any help would be much appreciated,
        Christine



        _________________________________________________________________
        Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
        http://www.hotmail.com





        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • ChasMauch@aol.com
        In a message dated 7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Christine, One of the major problems here is that the fossil fuels industry (as an example)
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 10, 2002
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          In a message dated 7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time, cjerko@... writes:


          Subj:[hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables
          Date:7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time
          From:cjerko@...
          Reply-to:hreg@yahoogroups.com
          To:hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Sent from the Internet



          Ok, this may require a thinking cap.

          As i mentioned before, i will try to get my company to invest in renewables
          once my homework is complete.  Currently, any way i slice it, i cannot come
          close to a 9% return on the investment.  There is no way Tractebel nor Suez
          would invest out of the goodness of their hearts...share holders - you know.

          So, have you ever heard of a companies stock value increasing (maybe
          Ex-RON's)from going green or making green announcemetns?  Can you think of
          any other extrinsic values from investing in renewables that are
          quantifiable?

          Any help would be much appreciated,
          Christine




          Christine,

          One of the major problems here is that the fossil fuels industry (as an example) has done such a good job of hiding their true costs and passing them on to others and the general public as externalities that it is hard to explain to the public what the true costs are and therefore to calculate true economics, since the system does not give much value for intangibles such as long-term social benefits.

          Our entire economy is based on the wasteful consumption of cheap energy, so for openers, you might try explaining the real cost of gasoline at the pump. It is not $1.50 or so - it is more like $5 to $15 per gallon, depending on how far you want to follow the money. There have been attempts to quantify these costs, and you will find one very good example entitled The Real Price of Gas by the International Center for Technology Assessment at the following website:

          http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm

          Of course under our present system of corporate capitalism that is focused on short-term profit (next quarter earnings) it is hard to justify spending present dollars for future gain, especially "intangibles" such as social benefits. Such things as preventive maintenance suffer from the same handicap (present costs for future benefits) but at some point in the near future we are going to have to recognize the basic fact that such a system is not sustainable and try to change the way the system works. That is a real problem. Good luck, and please let me know if you find a way to do it.

          Charlie Mauch
        • EXT-Mendell, Christopher N
          Check out the Green Century Fund. They make a profit from green and renewable energy companies. ... From: Christine Jerko [mailto:cjerko@hotmail.com] Sent:
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 10, 2002
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            Check out the Green Century Fund. They make a profit from "green" and
            renewable energy companies.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Christine Jerko [mailto:cjerko@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:38 AM
            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables


            Ok, this may require a thinking cap.

            As i mentioned before, i will try to get my company to invest in renewables
            once my homework is complete. Currently, any way i slice it, i cannot come
            close to a 9% return on the investment. There is no way Tractebel nor Suez
            would invest out of the goodness of their hearts...share holders - you know.

            So, have you ever heard of a companies stock value increasing (maybe
            Ex-RON's)from going green or making green announcemetns? Can you think of
            any other extrinsic values from investing in renewables that are
            quantifiable?

            Any help would be much appreciated,
            Christine



            _________________________________________________________________
            Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
            http://www.hotmail.com





            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Joseph Phelan
            As an extreme example, Buckminster Fuller, in the book Critical Path, calculates the cost to create the BTUs in oil by adding up all of the pressure over time
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 10, 2002
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              As an extreme example, Buckminster Fuller, in the book Critical Path, calculates the cost to create the BTUs in oil by adding up all of the pressure over time required by nature to "cook" it up so to speak, then assigns a retail equivalent value of 10 cents per kWh resulting in a whopping $1 million per barrel of oil.  Clearly there's an externality limit of common sense that starts before 300 million years ago.
               
              For more on externalities see the work of economist Herman E. Daly.  Marx worked in the 19th century on economic ideas which affected the 20th century in the negative, hopefully Daly's work will have as much influence on the 21st century but to the positive.
               
               - JP
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:50 AM
              Subject: Re: [hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables

              In a message dated 7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time, cjerko@... writes:


              Subj:[hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables
              Date:7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time
              From:cjerko@...
              Reply-to:hreg@yahoogroups.com
              To:hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Sent from the Internet



              Ok, this may require a thinking cap.

              As i mentioned before, i will try to get my company to invest in renewables
              once my homework is complete.  Currently, any way i slice it, i cannot come
              close to a 9% return on the investment.  There is no way Tractebel nor Suez
              would invest out of the goodness of their hearts...share holders - you know.

              So, have you ever heard of a companies stock value increasing (maybe
              Ex-RON's)from going green or making green announcemetns?  Can you think of
              any other extrinsic values from investing in renewables that are
              quantifiable?

              Any help would be much appreciated,
              Christine




              Christine,

              One of the major problems here is that the fossil fuels industry (as an example) has done such a good job of hiding their true costs and passing them on to others and the general public as externalities that it is hard to explain to the public what the true costs are and therefore to calculate true economics, since the system does not give much value for intangibles such as long-term social benefits.

              Our entire economy is based on the wasteful consumption of cheap energy, so for openers, you might try explaining the real cost of gasoline at the pump. It is not $1.50 or so - it is more like $5 to $15 per gallon, depending on how far you want to follow the money. There have been attempts to quantify these costs, and you will find one very good example entitled The Real Price of Gas by the International Center for Technology Assessment at the following website:

              http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm

              Of course under our present system of corporate capitalism that is focused on short-term profit (next quarter earnings) it is hard to justify spending present dollars for future gain, especially "intangibles" such as social benefits. Such things as preventive maintenance suffer from the same handicap (present costs for future benefits) but at some point in the near future we are going to have to recognize the basic fact that such a system is not sustainable and try to change the way the system works. That is a real problem. Good luck, and please let me know if you find a way to do it.

              Charlie Mauch

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • Kevin L. Conlin
              In the context of the question asked, what was your point? ... From: Joseph Phelan To: hreg@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 1:46 PM Subject: Re:
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 10, 2002
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                In the context of the question asked, what was your point?
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 1:46 PM
                Subject: Re: [hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables

                As an extreme example, Buckminster Fuller, in the book Critical Path, calculates the cost to create the BTUs in oil by adding up all of the pressure over time required by nature to "cook" it up so to speak, then assigns a retail equivalent value of 10 cents per kWh resulting in a whopping $1 million per barrel of oil.  Clearly there's an externality limit of common sense that starts before 300 million years ago.
                 
                For more on externalities see the work of economist Herman E. Daly.  Marx worked in the 19th century on economic ideas which affected the 20th century in the negative, hopefully Daly's work will have as much influence on the 21st century but to the positive.
                 
                 - JP
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:50 AM
                Subject: Re: [hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables

                In a message dated 7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time, cjerko@... writes:


                Subj:[hreg] suggestions for quantifiable elements of renewables
                Date:7/10/02 9:39:42 AM Central Daylight Time
                From:cjerko@...
                Reply-to:hreg@yahoogroups.com
                To:hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Sent from the Internet



                Ok, this may require a thinking cap.

                As i mentioned before, i will try to get my company to invest in renewables
                once my homework is complete.  Currently, any way i slice it, i cannot come
                close to a 9% return on the investment.  There is no way Tractebel nor Suez
                would invest out of the goodness of their hearts...share holders - you know.

                So, have you ever heard of a companies stock value increasing (maybe
                Ex-RON's)from going green or making green announcemetns?  Can you think of
                any other extrinsic values from investing in renewables that are
                quantifiable?

                Any help would be much appreciated,
                Christine




                Christine,

                One of the major problems here is that the fossil fuels industry (as an example) has done such a good job of hiding their true costs and passing them on to others and the general public as externalities that it is hard to explain to the public what the true costs are and therefore to calculate true economics, since the system does not give much value for intangibles such as long-term social benefits.

                Our entire economy is based on the wasteful consumption of cheap energy, so for openers, you might try explaining the real cost of gasoline at the pump. It is not $1.50 or so - it is more like $5 to $15 per gallon, depending on how far you want to follow the money. There have been attempts to quantify these costs, and you will find one very good example entitled The Real Price of Gas by the International Center for Technology Assessment at the following website:

                http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm

                Of course under our present system of corporate capitalism that is focused on short-term profit (next quarter earnings) it is hard to justify spending present dollars for future gain, especially "intangibles" such as social benefits. Such things as preventive maintenance suffer from the same handicap (present costs for future benefits) but at some point in the near future we are going to have to recognize the basic fact that such a system is not sustainable and try to change the way the system works. That is a real problem. Good luck, and please let me know if you find a way to do it.

                Charlie Mauch

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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