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www.shiftpower.org calculator

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  • tigger@io.com
    I just took a look at the calculator at Power Shift that s supposed to show you how much you d save if you had a solar PV system. I think that they are really
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 29, 2002
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      I just took a look at the calculator at Power Shift that's supposed to show
      you how much you'd save if you had a solar PV system. I think that they are
      really misreprenting things (at least I hope so) because I put in a 5.0KW
      system, and they suggested that the average monthly savings on your electric
      bill would be only about $31.
      I can only assume that they've totally left out net metering in their
      calculations... Am I missing something here?

      Paul Archer

      --
      ----------------------------------------------
      "We Americans, we're a simple people...
      but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
      --------------Robin Williams------------------
    • Robert Johnston
      The PV gurus can straighten us both out, but I thought I read somewhere that the Houston area could count on an average of about 4 hours of power per day
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 29, 2002
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        The PV gurus can straighten us both out, but I thought I read somewhere
        that the Houston area could count on an average of about 4 hours of
        power per day (e.g., if you take the integral of all the power generated
        in a day and divide by the peak power rating, you'd get around 4 hours).
        That would be about 20 kwh/day, or 600 kwh/month. At current prices
        (~$0.08/kwh), that would be worth around $48 in savings (assuming you
        use >2100 kwh/month, since many utilities have price breaks at the 1500
        kwh level). Anybody else want to take a crack at this?

        Robert Johnston

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: tigger@... [mailto:tigger@...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:08 PM
        > To: Houston RE Group
        > Subject: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
        >
        > I just took a look at the calculator at Power Shift that's supposed to
        > show
        > you how much you'd save if you had a solar PV system. I think that
        they
        > are
        > really misreprenting things (at least I hope so) because I put in a
        5.0KW
        > system, and they suggested that the average monthly savings on your
        > electric
        > bill would be only about $31.
        > I can only assume that they've totally left out net metering in their
        > calculations... Am I missing something here?
        >
        > Paul Archer
        >
        > --
        > ----------------------------------------------
        > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
        > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
        > --------------Robin Williams------------------
        >
        >
        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • Andrew McCalla
        All, I think Robert s about on. I told Paul: This is what I got: 5 kW (output, not array size) in the sun for 4 hours (a fair annual ESH for the Houston area)
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 29, 2002
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          All,

          I think Robert's about on.

          I told Paul:

          This is what I got:

          5 kW (output, not array size) in the sun for 4 hours (a fair annual ESH for the Houston area) will generate about 20kWh/day. Over a 30 day month that would be about 600kWh. 

          At $.10/kWh, that would be about $60 offset from your bill.

          I know, the $.10/kWh was generous, but be patient, soon you will see it.

          For a wizened perspective on the "payback" issue, see Randy Udall's article:

          http://www.altenergy.org/core/Solar_Power/solar_power.html
          Andrew H. McCalla
          Meridian Energy Systems, Inc.
          Solar-Electric System Design, Installation, and Service.
          P.O. Box 5810
          Austin, TX  78763
          Tel: 512-477-3050
          Fax: 512-477-3035
        • Ryan McMullan
          ... I was paying $0.109/kWh under HL&P and now I m paying $0.106 under Green Mountain so it doesn t seem overly generous to me. Maybe I just need to use more
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 29, 2002
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            At 08:24 PM 1/29/02 -0600, you wrote:
            >I know, the $.10/kWh was generous, but be patient, soon you will see it.

            I was paying $0.109/kWh under HL&P and now I'm paying $0.106 under Green
            Mountain so it doesn't seem overly generous to me. Maybe I just need to
            use more electricity so I can get that price break....

            I just wanted to thank everyone for your back-of-the-envelop calculations
            (and for showing your work). It's very educational and revealing and gives
            me the ability to better judge situations where I don't have the immediate
            benefit of your experience. Thanks.

            Ryan
          • tigger@io.com
            I guess I just expected more. I mean, for what it would cost for a 5KW system, with that kind of payback, it just doesn t really seem worth it. Maybe I m
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 29, 2002
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              I guess I just expected more. I mean, for what it would cost for a 5KW
              system, with that kind of payback, it just doesn't really seem worth it.
              Maybe I'm missing something on that side. And I gotta admit that, having
              grown up on the South Texas Coast, 4 hours of decent sun a day seems a
              little on the low side. Not that I'm doubting the numbers. It just
              intuitively seems like it should be more than that. Hmm...maybe I should
              move back to Corpus Christi and invest in wind power. 8-)

              Paul

              PS. Is there anyone on the list using a PV system in the Houston area that
              can provide some hard, real-life numbers?



              On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Robert Johnston wrote:

              > The PV gurus can straighten us both out, but I thought I read somewhere
              > that the Houston area could count on an average of about 4 hours of
              > power per day (e.g., if you take the integral of all the power generated
              > in a day and divide by the peak power rating, you'd get around 4 hours).
              > That would be about 20 kwh/day, or 600 kwh/month. At current prices
              > (~$0.08/kwh), that would be worth around $48 in savings (assuming you
              > use >2100 kwh/month, since many utilities have price breaks at the 1500
              > kwh level). Anybody else want to take a crack at this?
              >
              > Robert Johnston
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: tigger@... [mailto:tigger@...]
              > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:08 PM
              > > To: Houston RE Group
              > > Subject: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
              > >
              > > I just took a look at the calculator at Power Shift that's supposed to
              > > show
              > > you how much you'd save if you had a solar PV system. I think that
              > they
              > > are
              > > really misreprenting things (at least I hope so) because I put in a
              > 5.0KW
              > > system, and they suggested that the average monthly savings on your
              > > electric
              > > bill would be only about $31.
              > > I can only assume that they've totally left out net metering in their
              > > calculations... Am I missing something here?
              > >
              > > Paul Archer
              > >
              > > --
              > > ----------------------------------------------
              > > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
              > > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
              > > --------------Robin Williams------------------
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >

              --
              ----------------------------------------------
              "We Americans, we're a simple people...
              but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
              --------------Robin Williams------------------
            • Robert Johnston
              If you look at www.powertochoose.com and put in your zip code, you ll find several suppliers in the $0.08/kwh range, especially if you are looking at costs for
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 29, 2002
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                If you look at www.powertochoose.com and put in your zip code, you'll
                find several suppliers in the $0.08/kwh range, especially if you are
                looking at costs for >1500 kwh/month.

                Incidentally, for what it's worth, I signed up under the pilot program
                for NewPower, and my rate is less than yours but significantly more than
                the current rates. Looks like the pilot folks got taken. Since I have
                a 6 month period to cancel/change plans without penalty, I plan to do
                so.

                Robert

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Ryan McMullan [mailto:mcmullan@...]
                > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 9:12 PM
                > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                >
                > At 08:24 PM 1/29/02 -0600, you wrote:
                > >I know, the $.10/kWh was generous, but be patient, soon you will see
                it.
                >
                > I was paying $0.109/kWh under HL&P and now I'm paying $0.106 under
                Green
                > Mountain so it doesn't seem overly generous to me. Maybe I just need
                to
                > use more electricity so I can get that price break....
                >
                > I just wanted to thank everyone for your back-of-the-envelop
                calculations
                > (and for showing your work). It's very educational and revealing and
                > gives
                > me the ability to better judge situations where I don't have the
                immediate
                > benefit of your experience. Thanks.
                >
                > Ryan
                >
                >
                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Peter
                i can show you where they are coming up with the numbers also they have not accounted for the inverter and battery banks and construction and wiring detailed
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 29, 2002
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                  i can show you where they are coming up with the numbers
                  also they have not accounted for the inverter and battery banks
                  and construction and wiring detailed cost
                  peter

                  tigger@... wrote:

                  > I guess I just expected more. I mean, for what it would cost for a 5KW
                  > system, with that kind of payback, it just doesn't really seem worth it.
                  > Maybe I'm missing something on that side. And I gotta admit that, having
                  > grown up on the South Texas Coast, 4 hours of decent sun a day seems a
                  > little on the low side. Not that I'm doubting the numbers. It just
                  > intuitively seems like it should be more than that. Hmm...maybe I should
                  > move back to Corpus Christi and invest in wind power. 8-)
                  >
                  > Paul
                  >
                  > PS. Is there anyone on the list using a PV system in the Houston area that
                  > can provide some hard, real-life numbers?
                  >
                  > On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Robert Johnston wrote:
                  >
                  > > The PV gurus can straighten us both out, but I thought I read somewhere
                  > > that the Houston area could count on an average of about 4 hours of
                  > > power per day (e.g., if you take the integral of all the power generated
                  > > in a day and divide by the peak power rating, you'd get around 4 hours).
                  > > That would be about 20 kwh/day, or 600 kwh/month. At current prices
                  > > (~$0.08/kwh), that would be worth around $48 in savings (assuming you
                  > > use >2100 kwh/month, since many utilities have price breaks at the 1500
                  > > kwh level). Anybody else want to take a crack at this?
                  > >
                  > > Robert Johnston
                  > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: tigger@... [mailto:tigger@...]
                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:08 PM
                  > > > To: Houston RE Group
                  > > > Subject: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                  > > >
                  > > > I just took a look at the calculator at Power Shift that's supposed to
                  > > > show
                  > > > you how much you'd save if you had a solar PV system. I think that
                  > > they
                  > > > are
                  > > > really misreprenting things (at least I hope so) because I put in a
                  > > 5.0KW
                  > > > system, and they suggested that the average monthly savings on your
                  > > > electric
                  > > > bill would be only about $31.
                  > > > I can only assume that they've totally left out net metering in their
                  > > > calculations... Am I missing something here?
                  > > >
                  > > > Paul Archer
                  > > >
                  > > > --
                  > > > ----------------------------------------------
                  > > > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
                  > > > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
                  > > > --------------Robin Williams------------------
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > --
                  > ----------------------------------------------
                  > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
                  > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
                  > --------------Robin Williams------------------
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Claude Foster
                  Your calculation looks good. My calculations for a home system shows a net increase of $660 per month. You are correct - something is wron with their program.
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 30, 2002
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                    Your calculation looks good. My calculations for a home system shows a net increase of $660 per month.

                    You are correct - something is wron with their program.



                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: tigger@... [SMTP:tigger@...]
                    > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:08 PM
                    > To: Houston RE Group
                    > Subject: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                    >
                    > I just took a look at the calculator at Power Shift that's supposed to show
                    > you how much you'd save if you had a solar PV system. I think that they are
                    > really misreprenting things (at least I hope so) because I put in a 5.0KW
                    > system, and they suggested that the average monthly savings on your electric
                    > bill would be only about $31.
                    > I can only assume that they've totally left out net metering in their
                    > calculations... Am I missing something here?
                    >
                    > Paul Archer
                    >
                    > --
                    > ----------------------------------------------
                    > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
                    > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
                    > --------------Robin Williams------------------
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • Polly Ledvina
                    I don t get it. Right now they are making solar look like the most EXPENSIVE form of energy you can buy. I tired it for an Austin zip code also - things
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 30, 2002
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                      I don't get it. Right now they are making solar look like the most
                      EXPENSIVE form of energy you can buy. I tired it for an Austin zip code
                      also - things didn't improve very much.

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Claude Foster" <ccfoster@...>
                      To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 8:13 AM
                      Subject: RE: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator


                      > Your calculation looks good. My calculations for a home system shows a net
                      increase of $660 per month.
                      >
                      > You are correct - something is wron with their program.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: tigger@... [SMTP:tigger@...]
                      > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:08 PM
                      > > To: Houston RE Group
                      > > Subject: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                      > >
                      > > I just took a look at the calculator at Power Shift that's supposed to
                      show
                      > > you how much you'd save if you had a solar PV system. I think that they
                      are
                      > > really misreprenting things (at least I hope so) because I put in a
                      5.0KW
                      > > system, and they suggested that the average monthly savings on your
                      electric
                      > > bill would be only about $31.
                      > > I can only assume that they've totally left out net metering in their
                      > > calculations... Am I missing something here?
                      > >
                      > > Paul Archer
                      > >
                      > > --
                      > > ----------------------------------------------
                      > > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
                      > > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
                      > > --------------Robin Williams------------------
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • Kevin L. Conlin
                      These numbers are realistic, Houston averages between 4.6 and 4.8 annual peak sun hours for a non tracking array. After conversion losses, you will produce
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 30, 2002
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                        These numbers are realistic, Houston averages between 4.6 and 4.8 annual
                        peak sun hours for a non tracking array. After conversion losses, you will
                        produce about 75 to 80% of your rated array output. Peoples perception of
                        our "sunny" climate and the actual numbers are often disputed, I get that
                        all the time with my customers, but the reality is we have relatively weak
                        sunshine compared to the rest of the US southwest.
                        With the humidity, it's the worst of both worlds, requiring more power to
                        cool the house than in less humid parts of the country. Combine that with
                        the fact that we build horribly designed and inefficient homes with minimal
                        insulation, that is the main reason I don't think PV powered homes are
                        practical yet in this area. I know that's not what a lot of folks want to
                        hear, but that's the truth. Design an efficient, passive solar home with a
                        geothermal cooling system and other energy efficient devices, such as
                        LaVerne Williams, Bob Batho and Mac Holder have been advocating for years,
                        and you have a reasonable chance of pulling it off. Slap it on your average
                        spec home, and you've wasted a lot of money.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <tigger@...>
                        To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 9:24 PM
                        Subject: RE: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator


                        > I guess I just expected more. I mean, for what it would cost for a 5KW
                        > system, with that kind of payback, it just doesn't really seem worth it.
                        > Maybe I'm missing something on that side. And I gotta admit that, having
                        > grown up on the South Texas Coast, 4 hours of decent sun a day seems a
                        > little on the low side. Not that I'm doubting the numbers. It just
                        > intuitively seems like it should be more than that. Hmm...maybe I should
                        > move back to Corpus Christi and invest in wind power. 8-)
                        >
                        > Paul
                        >
                        > PS. Is there anyone on the list using a PV system in the Houston area that
                        > can provide some hard, real-life numbers?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Robert Johnston wrote:
                        >
                        > > The PV gurus can straighten us both out, but I thought I read somewhere
                        > > that the Houston area could count on an average of about 4 hours of
                        > > power per day (e.g., if you take the integral of all the power generated
                        > > in a day and divide by the peak power rating, you'd get around 4 hours).
                        > > That would be about 20 kwh/day, or 600 kwh/month. At current prices
                        > > (~$0.08/kwh), that would be worth around $48 in savings (assuming you
                        > > use >2100 kwh/month, since many utilities have price breaks at the 1500
                        > > kwh level). Anybody else want to take a crack at this?
                        > >
                        > > Robert Johnston
                        > >
                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > From: tigger@... [mailto:tigger@...]
                        > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:08 PM
                        > > > To: Houston RE Group
                        > > > Subject: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                        > > >
                        > > > I just took a look at the calculator at Power Shift that's supposed to
                        > > > show
                        > > > you how much you'd save if you had a solar PV system. I think that
                        > > they
                        > > > are
                        > > > really misreprenting things (at least I hope so) because I put in a
                        > > 5.0KW
                        > > > system, and they suggested that the average monthly savings on your
                        > > > electric
                        > > > bill would be only about $31.
                        > > > I can only assume that they've totally left out net metering in their
                        > > > calculations... Am I missing something here?
                        > > >
                        > > > Paul Archer
                        > > >
                        > > > --
                        > > > ----------------------------------------------
                        > > > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
                        > > > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
                        > > > --------------Robin Williams------------------
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > --
                        > ----------------------------------------------
                        > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
                        > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
                        > --------------Robin Williams------------------
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Kevin L. Conlin
                        You will not generate $660 worth of power with a 5kW array in Houston, not even close, even with double axis tracking. Per year, perhaps, but definitely not
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 30, 2002
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                          You will not generate $660 worth of power with a 5kW array in Houston, not
                          even close, even with double axis tracking. Per year, perhaps, but
                          definitely not per month, That would equate to generating 220 kWh per day,
                          which would require a 50kW array.Sorry, better recheck the math
                          .
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Claude Foster" <ccfoster@...>
                          To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 8:13 AM
                          Subject: RE: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator


                          > Your calculation looks good. My calculations for a home system shows a net
                          increase of $660 per month.
                          >
                          > You are correct - something is wron with their program.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: tigger@... [SMTP:tigger@...]
                          > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:08 PM
                          > > To: Houston RE Group
                          > > Subject: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                          > >
                          > > I just took a look at the calculator at Power Shift that's supposed to
                          show
                          > > you how much you'd save if you had a solar PV system. I think that they
                          are
                          > > really misreprenting things (at least I hope so) because I put in a
                          5.0KW
                          > > system, and they suggested that the average monthly savings on your
                          electric
                          > > bill would be only about $31.
                          > > I can only assume that they've totally left out net metering in their
                          > > calculations... Am I missing something here?
                          > >
                          > > Paul Archer
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > ----------------------------------------------
                          > > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
                          > > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
                          > > --------------Robin Williams------------------
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Leonard Bachman
                          Words of wisdom. Thanks Kevin! Leonard insulate before you insolate... ... From: Kevin L. Conlin To: Sent:
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 30, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Words of wisdom. Thanks Kevin!
                            Leonard

                            "insulate before you insolate..."


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Kevin L. Conlin" <kconlin@...>
                            To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 12:10 PM
                            Subject: Re: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator


                            > These numbers are realistic, Houston averages between 4.6 and 4.8 annual
                            > peak sun hours for a non tracking array. After conversion losses, you
                            will
                            > produce about 75 to 80% of your rated array output. Peoples perception of
                            > our "sunny" climate and the actual numbers are often disputed, I get that
                            > all the time with my customers, but the reality is we have relatively weak
                            > sunshine compared to the rest of the US southwest.
                            > With the humidity, it's the worst of both worlds, requiring more power to
                            > cool the house than in less humid parts of the country. Combine that with
                            > the fact that we build horribly designed and inefficient homes with
                            minimal
                            > insulation, that is the main reason I don't think PV powered homes are
                            > practical yet in this area. I know that's not what a lot of folks want to
                            > hear, but that's the truth. Design an efficient, passive solar home with
                            a
                            > geothermal cooling system and other energy efficient devices, such as
                            > LaVerne Williams, Bob Batho and Mac Holder have been advocating for years,
                            > and you have a reasonable chance of pulling it off. Slap it on your
                            average
                            > spec home, and you've wasted a lot of money.
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: <tigger@...>
                            > To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 9:24 PM
                            > Subject: RE: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                            >
                            >
                            > > I guess I just expected more. I mean, for what it would cost for a 5KW
                            > > system, with that kind of payback, it just doesn't really seem worth it.
                            > > Maybe I'm missing something on that side. And I gotta admit that, having
                            > > grown up on the South Texas Coast, 4 hours of decent sun a day seems a
                            > > little on the low side. Not that I'm doubting the numbers. It just
                            > > intuitively seems like it should be more than that. Hmm...maybe I should
                            > > move back to Corpus Christi and invest in wind power. 8-)
                            > >
                            > > Paul
                            > >
                            > > PS. Is there anyone on the list using a PV system in the Houston area
                            that
                            > > can provide some hard, real-life numbers?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Robert Johnston wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > The PV gurus can straighten us both out, but I thought I read
                            somewhere
                            > > > that the Houston area could count on an average of about 4 hours of
                            > > > power per day (e.g., if you take the integral of all the power
                            generated
                            > > > in a day and divide by the peak power rating, you'd get around 4
                            hours).
                            > > > That would be about 20 kwh/day, or 600 kwh/month. At current prices
                            > > > (~$0.08/kwh), that would be worth around $48 in savings (assuming you
                            > > > use >2100 kwh/month, since many utilities have price breaks at the
                            1500
                            > > > kwh level). Anybody else want to take a crack at this?
                            > > >
                            > > > Robert Johnston
                            > > >
                            > > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > > From: tigger@... [mailto:tigger@...]
                            > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:08 PM
                            > > > > To: Houston RE Group
                            > > > > Subject: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I just took a look at the calculator at Power Shift that's supposed
                            to
                            > > > > show
                            > > > > you how much you'd save if you had a solar PV system. I think that
                            > > > they
                            > > > > are
                            > > > > really misreprenting things (at least I hope so) because I put in a
                            > > > 5.0KW
                            > > > > system, and they suggested that the average monthly savings on your
                            > > > > electric
                            > > > > bill would be only about $31.
                            > > > > I can only assume that they've totally left out net metering in
                            their
                            > > > > calculations... Am I missing something here?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Paul Archer
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --
                            > > > > ----------------------------------------------
                            > > > > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
                            > > > > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
                            > > > > --------------Robin Williams------------------
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > --
                            > > ----------------------------------------------
                            > > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
                            > > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
                            > > --------------Robin Williams------------------
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                          • Polly Ledvina
                            The numbers for Houston may be realistic, but try the calculation for Phoenix, Arizona (zip code 85027). The numbers are still grim. In Phoenix it seems you
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 30, 2002
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                              The numbers for Houston may be realistic, but try the calculation for
                              Phoenix, Arizona (zip code 85027). The numbers are still grim. In Phoenix
                              it seems you can produce about 30% more kWh per month than Houston, but it
                              will still take over 60 yrs for a 1 kW system to pay for itself (assuming
                              the system costs $8000 per kW and zero interest on the loan to buy it). The
                              bigger the system, or if you have to pay interest, everything just gets
                              worse. Am I reading things right?

                              I think maybe the point of the website is that few people will ever buy pv
                              systems until costs are somehow reduced (or subsidized)? Or the price of
                              electricity gets much higher.

                              Polly


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Kevin L. Conlin" <kconlin@...>
                              To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 12:10 PM
                              Subject: Re: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator


                              > These numbers are realistic, Houston averages between 4.6 and 4.8 annual
                              > peak sun hours for a non tracking array. After conversion losses, you
                              will
                              > produce about 75 to 80% of your rated array output. Peoples perception of
                              > our "sunny" climate and the actual numbers are often disputed, I get that
                              > all the time with my customers, but the reality is we have relatively weak
                              > sunshine compared to the rest of the US southwest.
                              > With the humidity, it's the worst of both worlds, requiring more power to
                              > cool the house than in less humid parts of the country. Combine that with
                              > the fact that we build horribly designed and inefficient homes with
                              minimal
                              > insulation, that is the main reason I don't think PV powered homes are
                              > practical yet in this area. I know that's not what a lot of folks want to
                              > hear, but that's the truth. Design an efficient, passive solar home with
                              a
                              > geothermal cooling system and other energy efficient devices, such as
                              > LaVerne Williams, Bob Batho and Mac Holder have been advocating for years,
                              > and you have a reasonable chance of pulling it off. Slap it on your
                              average
                              > spec home, and you've wasted a lot of money.
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: <tigger@...>
                              > To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 9:24 PM
                              > Subject: RE: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                              >
                              >
                              > > I guess I just expected more. I mean, for what it would cost for a 5KW
                              > > system, with that kind of payback, it just doesn't really seem worth it.
                              > > Maybe I'm missing something on that side. And I gotta admit that, having
                              > > grown up on the South Texas Coast, 4 hours of decent sun a day seems a
                              > > little on the low side. Not that I'm doubting the numbers. It just
                              > > intuitively seems like it should be more than that. Hmm...maybe I should
                              > > move back to Corpus Christi and invest in wind power. 8-)
                              > >
                              > > Paul
                              > >
                              > > PS. Is there anyone on the list using a PV system in the Houston area
                              that
                              > > can provide some hard, real-life numbers?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Robert Johnston wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > The PV gurus can straighten us both out, but I thought I read
                              somewhere
                              > > > that the Houston area could count on an average of about 4 hours of
                              > > > power per day (e.g., if you take the integral of all the power
                              generated
                              > > > in a day and divide by the peak power rating, you'd get around 4
                              hours).
                              > > > That would be about 20 kwh/day, or 600 kwh/month. At current prices
                              > > > (~$0.08/kwh), that would be worth around $48 in savings (assuming you
                              > > > use >2100 kwh/month, since many utilities have price breaks at the
                              1500
                              > > > kwh level). Anybody else want to take a crack at this?
                              > > >
                              > > > Robert Johnston
                              > > >
                              > > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > > From: tigger@... [mailto:tigger@...]
                              > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:08 PM
                              > > > > To: Houston RE Group
                              > > > > Subject: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I just took a look at the calculator at Power Shift that's supposed
                              to
                              > > > > show
                              > > > > you how much you'd save if you had a solar PV system. I think that
                              > > > they
                              > > > > are
                              > > > > really misreprenting things (at least I hope so) because I put in a
                              > > > 5.0KW
                              > > > > system, and they suggested that the average monthly savings on your
                              > > > > electric
                              > > > > bill would be only about $31.
                              > > > > I can only assume that they've totally left out net metering in
                              their
                              > > > > calculations... Am I missing something here?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Paul Archer
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --
                              > > > > ----------------------------------------------
                              > > > > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
                              > > > > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
                              > > > > --------------Robin Williams------------------
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > --
                              > > ----------------------------------------------
                              > > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
                              > > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
                              > > --------------Robin Williams------------------
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                            • Andrew McCalla
                              Polly, That s about right. PV is one of the most expensive forms of energy you can buy, at least by bottom-dollar, at-the-till, subsidies-aside calculations.
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jan 30, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Polly,

                                That's about right. PV is one of the most expensive forms of energy you
                                can buy, at least by bottom-dollar, at-the-till, subsidies-aside calculations.

                                The cheapest energy you can buy is the energy you don't buy in the first
                                place, through efficiency and conservation.

                                Andrew


                                At 08:49 AM 1/30/02 -0600, you wrote:
                                >I don't get it. Right now they are making solar look like the most
                                >EXPENSIVE form of energy you can buy. I tired it for an Austin zip code
                                >also - things didn't improve very much.
                                >
                                >----- Original Message -----
                                >From: "Claude Foster" <ccfoster@...>
                                >To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                >Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 8:13 AM
                                >Subject: RE: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                                >
                                >
                                > > Your calculation looks good. My calculations for a home system shows a net
                                >increase of $660 per month.
                                > >
                                > > You are correct - something is wron with their program.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > From: tigger@... [SMTP:tigger@...]
                                > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:08 PM
                                > > > To: Houston RE Group
                                > > > Subject: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                                > > >
                                > > > I just took a look at the calculator at Power Shift that's supposed to
                                >show
                                > > > you how much you'd save if you had a solar PV system. I think that they
                                >are
                                > > > really misreprenting things (at least I hope so) because I put in a
                                >5.0KW
                                > > > system, and they suggested that the average monthly savings on your
                                >electric
                                > > > bill would be only about $31.
                                > > > I can only assume that they've totally left out net metering in their
                                > > > calculations... Am I missing something here?
                                > > >
                                > > > Paul Archer
                                > > >
                                > > > --
                                > > > ----------------------------------------------
                                > > > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
                                > > > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
                                > > > --------------Robin Williams------------------
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                                Andrew H. McCalla
                                Meridian Energy Systems, Inc.
                                Solar-Electric System Design, Installation, and Service.
                                P.O. Box 5810
                                Austin, TX 78763
                                Tel: 512-477-3050
                                Fax: 512-477-3035
                                www.meridiansolar.com
                              • Kevin L. Conlin
                                Very well put, Andrew! ... From: Andrew McCalla To: Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 8:39 PM Subject: Re:
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jan 31, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Very well put, Andrew!

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Andrew McCalla" <andrew@...>
                                  To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 8:39 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator


                                  > Polly,
                                  >
                                  > That's about right. PV is one of the most expensive forms of energy you
                                  > can buy, at least by bottom-dollar, at-the-till, subsidies-aside
                                  calculations.
                                  >
                                  > The cheapest energy you can buy is the energy you don't buy in the first
                                  > place, through efficiency and conservation.
                                  >
                                  > Andrew
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > At 08:49 AM 1/30/02 -0600, you wrote:
                                  > >I don't get it. Right now they are making solar look like the most
                                  > >EXPENSIVE form of energy you can buy. I tired it for an Austin zip code
                                  > >also - things didn't improve very much.
                                  > >
                                  > >----- Original Message -----
                                  > >From: "Claude Foster" <ccfoster@...>
                                  > >To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > >Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 8:13 AM
                                  > >Subject: RE: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > Your calculation looks good. My calculations for a home system shows a
                                  net
                                  > >increase of $660 per month.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > You are correct - something is wron with their program.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > > From: tigger@... [SMTP:tigger@...]
                                  > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:08 PM
                                  > > > > To: Houston RE Group
                                  > > > > Subject: [hreg] www.shiftpower.org calculator
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I just took a look at the calculator at Power Shift that's supposed
                                  to
                                  > >show
                                  > > > > you how much you'd save if you had a solar PV system. I think that
                                  they
                                  > >are
                                  > > > > really misreprenting things (at least I hope so) because I put in a
                                  > >5.0KW
                                  > > > > system, and they suggested that the average monthly savings on your
                                  > >electric
                                  > > > > bill would be only about $31.
                                  > > > > I can only assume that they've totally left out net metering in
                                  their
                                  > > > > calculations... Am I missing something here?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Paul Archer
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --
                                  > > > > ----------------------------------------------
                                  > > > > "We Americans, we're a simple people...
                                  > > > > but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities."
                                  > > > > --------------Robin Williams------------------
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  > Andrew H. McCalla
                                  > Meridian Energy Systems, Inc.
                                  > Solar-Electric System Design, Installation, and Service.
                                  > P.O. Box 5810
                                  > Austin, TX 78763
                                  > Tel: 512-477-3050
                                  > Fax: 512-477-3035
                                  > www.meridiansolar.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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