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RE: [hreg] A Wake Up Call from Seattle - responding

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  • Robert Johnston
    Jim, I guess we ll just have to disagree here. I don t see them as corporate sociopaths. But even if I did, I would still argue that Seattle is making a
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 2, 2013
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      Jim,


      I guess we’ll just have to disagree here.  I don’t see “them” as corporate sociopaths.  But even if I did, I would still argue that Seattle is making a weak political gesture.  First, because it has a negligible impact on stock valuations.  Second, because it reeks of hypocrisy.  It is analogous to a bar saying that in recognition of the negative impact of alcohol on mental and physical health, driving safety, domestic abuse, and crime, it’s owners have decided to divest themselves of liquor company stocks, but they have no plans to discontinue the use and distribution of alcohol to their many patrons or to earn their livelihood that way.  By continuing to purchase and distribute alcohol, they are probably doing more to uphold the value of the liquor company stocks than their miniscule holdings of stock did.  Theirs is a hypocritical, empty gesture, devoid of significance to those who “follow the money” rather than “words” to determine where one’s heart is truly at.  The bar’s alcoholic patrons, unable to wean themselves from alcohol, continue to down glass after glass, having some vague notion that the bar cares about them and is doing what it can to stand up to the evil corporations that are destroying their lives.

       

      Cheers!  <burp>


      Robert

       

       

       

      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Duncan
      Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 10:19 PM
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [hreg] A Wake Up Call from Seattle - responding

       

       

       

      ….I don’t claim any expertise here!  Just citing some data and suggesting that weak political gestures by Seattle, even if followed by several others, won’t reverse the tide; production system economics will.

       

       It’s hardly a weak gesture to be the first city to speak out against a trillion dollar corporate sociopath. The fact that they spoke with a proud and defiant voice will no doubt empower other cities and entities to follow.  I’m not holding my breath however for Houston or Fort Worth to speak out against their biggest corporate overseer any time soon.

      Jim Duncan

       

    • Thomas Wayburn
      Kevin, Yes, of course, to pay the huge up-front costs of solar, for example, before a single Btu is harvested from the sun, an Apollo solar energy project must
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 2, 2013
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        Kevin,

         

        Yes, of course, to pay the huge up-front costs of solar, for example, before a single Btu is harvested from the sun, an Apollo solar energy project must be subsidized, which I would vote for provided, there is no venture capitalist waiting in the wings and the operation is not for the private profit of anyone, except of course the workers including the white collar workers who haven’t been fired yet.  I did a bunch of spreadsheet analysis during my debate with Dave Kindle at http://dematerialism.net/pv.htm

         

        Thomas Wayburn, Houston , Texas
        http://dematerialism.net/
        http://eroei.blogspot.com/
        http://dematerialism.wikispaces.com/
        http://modrr.net/


        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kevin conlin
        Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 7:52 PM
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [hreg] A Wake Up Call from Seattle - responding

         

         

        Robert,

         

        I have to disagree with your comment about subsidies.

         

        Two points:

        1)Fossil fuel subsidies dwarf renewables subsidies, and the US nuclear power industry wouldn’t exist without them. Do you not consider the cost of our military presence in the Persian Gulf a form of subsidy?  Who pays for it? We do.  Oil and gas production on public lands?  Not a subsidy?

         

        2) It’s not realistic to think American technology can be competitive in the world marketplace without government support, for the simple reason that other nations are aggressively supporting their industries. Look at the success China has had in becoming the dominant player in wind, pv and solar thermal. They set a goal while we dithered, and now they are the dominant player, and we’re somewhere behind Italy …

         

        The nature of advanced technologies is that most require some type of early support to facilitate their adoption. That isn’t a political statement, just reality.

         

        The solar industry is one of the fastest growing industries in the US , creating thousands of jobs. That doesn’t deserve government support?

         

        You are right in that eventually the market decides, but cheap gas is resulting in a loss of market share for coal, while California is on track to achieve 33% renewable power generation by 2020.

         

        It’s projected solar generated power will cost $.06/kwh in California in 2020, while fossil fuels will hover around $.15.  

         

        The world is bathed in enough sunlight every 88 minutes to power it for a year.  Seems like a good investment to me

         

        Best Regards,

         

        Kevin

         

        Kevin Conlin

        Sun-Stop LLC

        Houston TX

        kconlin@...

        281 202 9629

         

        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
        Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 6:59 PM
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [hreg] A Wake Up Call from Seattle

         

         

        As of close today, the market cap of ExxonMobil alone was $404 Billion.  Let’s see…  17.6M/404B = 0.004%.  Add in the rest of the fossil fuels industry and we’re probably talking 0.0001%.  I hardly think Seattle ’s little statement will register, and I don’t see prudent pension and other fund managers following suit.  Face it:  the revitalization of natural gas due to shale gas/fracking is going to make for a very challenging time for wind power and other renewables.  Market forces will prevail.  Only when renewable technologies become competitive without subsidies can we expect to see massive inroads.  Government entities like Seattle can make political statements, but it isn’t likely that a supermajority of Congress will turn against fossil fuels anytime soon.  I think our challenge is to do what we can to promote continued R&D to improve energy efficiency and renewable source cost reduction.  Eventually, regulatory bodies will be forced to admit the magnitude of climate change and then there will a shift.  I suspect that is still many years down the road.


        Robert

         

         

        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Violeta Archer
        Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:14 PM
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [hreg] A Wake Up Call from Seattle

         

         

        Folks,

         

        If you haven't heard already an alarm sounding off, you will soon. There's a loud wake up call coming out of Seattle . All you need to do is point your ears and telescope diagnally across the nation's mid-section to hear the message. With Houston being the energy capital of the world, the message is for US. And this alarm will reverberate on Wall Street, too.

         

        The City of Seattle and its Mayor - Mike McGinn - just made a decision to divest ALL fossil fuels from its investment portfolio. The funds represent $17.6 million (only 0.9% of its current $1.9B total assets), but enough to make a statement and set an example for others to follow.

         

        And the followers are lining up. Because Seattle 's decision gives the Fossil Free Campaign more fuel to spread this ground-up revolution. (And if pressed for a prediction, I suspect the dominos will start falling next in California 's direction. . ..)

         

         

        This is so reminiscent of Paul Revere. . ..

         

        Best regards,

         

        Violeta Archer

        HREG secretary





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      • Jim Duncan
        Huh? From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 11:05 PM To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 3, 2013
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          Huh?

           

           

          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
          Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 11:05 PM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [hreg] A Wake Up Call from Seattle - responding

           

           

          Jim,


          I guess we’ll just have to disagree here.  I don’t see “them” as corporate sociopaths.  But even if I did, I would still argue that Seattle is making a weak political gesture.  First, because it has a negligible impact on stock valuations.  Second, because it reeks of hypocrisy.  It is analogous to a bar saying that in recognition of the negative impact of alcohol on mental and physical health, driving safety, domestic abuse, and crime, it’s owners have decided to divest themselves of liquor company stocks, but they have no plans to discontinue the use and distribution of alcohol to their many patrons or to earn their livelihood that way.  By continuing to purchase and distribute alcohol, they are probably doing more to uphold the value of the liquor company stocks than their miniscule holdings of stock did.  Theirs is a hypocritical, empty gesture, devoid of significance to those who “follow the money” rather than “words” to determine where one’s heart is truly at.  The bar’s alcoholic patrons, unable to wean themselves from alcohol, continue to down glass after glass, having some vague notion that the bar cares about them and is doing what it can to stand up to the evil corporations that are destroying their lives.

           

          Cheers!  <burp>


          Robert

           

           

           

          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Duncan
          Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 10:19 PM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [hreg] A Wake Up Call from Seattle - responding

           

           

           

          ….I don’t claim any expertise here!  Just citing some data and suggesting that weak political gestures by Seattle, even if followed by several others, won’t reverse the tide; production system economics will.

           

           It’s hardly a weak gesture to be the first city to speak out against a trillion dollar corporate sociopath. The fact that they spoke with a proud and defiant voice will no doubt empower other cities and entities to follow.  I’m not holding my breath however for Houston or Fort Worth to speak out against their biggest corporate overseer any time soon.

          Jim Duncan

           

        • Jim Duncan
          If you would turn off your foxnews for a year or two and learn the facts about the middle east and the oil war there, you would begin to understand my
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 3, 2013
          • 0 Attachment

            If you would turn off your foxnews for a year or two and learn the facts about the middle east and the oil war there,  you would begin to understand my reference to Exxon and its sociopathic behavior after losing the oil war in Iraq.

            Start here: http://priceofoil.org/2012/12/19/iraq-exxon-drilling-could-start-civil-war/

            Jim Duncan

             

             

            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
            Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 11:05 PM
            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [hreg] A Wake Up Call from Seattle - responding

             

             

            Jim,


            I guess we’ll just have to disagree here.  I don’t see “them” as corporate sociopaths.  But even if I did, I would still argue that Seattle is making a weak political gesture.  First, because it has a negligible impact on stock valuations.  Second, because it reeks of hypocrisy.  It is analogous to a bar saying that in recognition of the negative impact of alcohol on mental and physical health, driving safety, domestic abuse, and crime, it’s owners have decided to divest themselves of liquor company stocks, but they have no plans to discontinue the use and distribution of alcohol to their many patrons or to earn their livelihood that way.  By continuing to purchase and distribute alcohol, they are probably doing more to uphold the value of the liquor company stocks than their miniscule holdings of stock did.  Theirs is a hypocritical, empty gesture, devoid of significance to those who “follow the money” rather than “words” to determine where one’s heart is truly at.  The bar’s alcoholic patrons, unable to wean themselves from alcohol, continue to down glass after glass, having some vague notion that the bar cares about them and is doing what it can to stand up to the evil corporations that are destroying their lives.

             

            Cheers!  <burp>


            Robert

             

             

             

            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Duncan
            Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 10:19 PM
            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [hreg] A Wake Up Call from Seattle - responding

             

             

             

            ….I don’t claim any expertise here!  Just citing some data and suggesting that weak political gestures by Seattle, even if followed by several others, won’t reverse the tide; production system economics will.

             

             It’s hardly a weak gesture to be the first city to speak out against a trillion dollar corporate sociopath. The fact that they spoke with a proud and defiant voice will no doubt empower other cities and entities to follow.  I’m not holding my breath however for Houston or Fort Worth to speak out against their biggest corporate overseer any time soon.

            Jim Duncan

             

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