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Re: [hreg] Re: solar thermal/pv discussion - responding

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  • mkewert@comcast.net
    Jay, The absorption air conditioners you refer to have been around quite a while. They re just not real cost effective in small systems. They can get pretty
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 21, 2012
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      Jay,
      The absorption air conditioners you refer to have been around quite a while. They're just not real cost effective in small systems. They can get pretty efficient with double and triple effect cycles, but then they get even more expensive.  Yazaki is the leader and uses lithium bromide instead of ammonia.
      http://www.yazaki-airconditioning.com/en/airconditioning/history.html

      There are a few other thermal driven A/C's that are coming along and may be great for solar in a few years.  One is NREL's DeVap system.
      http://www.nrel.gov/news/features/feature_detail.cfm/feature_id=1531?print

      Mike


      From: "Jay Ring" <public@...>
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 3:51:59 PM
      Subject: [hreg] Re: solar thermal/pv discussion - responding

       

      One possibility I haven't seen considered is using a absorption cycle refrigerator as an air conditioning unit. These are the ammonia refrigeration that are usually propane powered. You sometimes see on RVs.

      They are a little unusual because their input is heat - they use the heat to cool thing. That has always seemed counter-intuitive to me.

      The idea is essentially what you describe. Move a large PV load (air conditioning) to a thermal load.

      Their main drawback over the compression cycle is their very low efficiency. But a PV powered compressor(currently) also has a very low end-to-end efficiency, so it might work out. I really have no idea.

      --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Philip Timmons <philiptimmons@...> wrote:
      >
      > The solar thermal to electricity -- at least at the small scale -- are new toys.  That was why I was wondering if anyone would like to do or be test sites.

      > When looking at the typical overall energy use -- electricity use, as electricity, per se -- not turned into some sort of heat or cool -- like light, TV, PC, maybe a fan or two -- is pretty minor compared to the Thermal component(s) -- like Space Heat and Cooling, or Water Heating, as you noted here.

      > So I am figuring it makes better sense to just do a LOT of Thermal (compared to PV), and not make so much electricity.  Which is some bothersome thinking to an EE, let me tell you. :)

      > At any rate, with the various Thermal Loads all going away, it only leaves a small amount for the  electricity generation portion of  a system to do.   So I am looking for holes or blind spots in that thinking -- so if anyone sees any problems in it, I am hoping they may speak up.

      >
      >
      > --- On Tue, 1/17/12, kevin conlin <kevin@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: kevin conlin <kevin@...>
      > Subject: [hreg] solar thermal/pv discussion - responding
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Tuesday, January 17, 2012, 2:15 PM
      >
      >
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      >  
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      > Hi Philip, Slight miscommunication, please see my clarification below………:-)
      >  
      > Best Regards,
      >  
      > Kevin
      >  
      > Kevin Conlin
      > Heliosolar Design Inc
      > PO Box 1938
      > Alief, TX 77411
      > 281-202-9629
      > kevin@...
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      > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip Timmons
      > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 1:29 PM
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [hreg] Trade War with China Could Cripple US Solar Industry - responding
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      > Thanks so much, Kevin.
      >
      >  
      >
      > From #1, I think I follow that you were thinking along the line of using PV to make electricity, which would then heat the water.  No, actually I was trying to prevent that at all costs   I was considering separate PV and thermal collectors. It’s been my experience that with a properly sized solar thermal system you can literally turn the backup element off for 9 months a year. It would be very important to do this, otherwise valuable PV power could be used to heat water  You are correct, in some of the TOU plans, while that is extreme, it does actually make sense. 
      >
      >  
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      > What I was trying to discuss is using Solar Thermal (only, No PV) for generation of both the Hot Water and Electricity.  So thanks for showing me that I need to be very clear on that.
      > I’m not sure what technology you’re referring to, can you please elaborate?  I’m not familiar with any residential systems using solar thermal to generate electricity
      >
      >  
      >
      > On #2, Money makes the difference.  Agreed. It’s been the key to widespread adoption by CPS in San Antonio, they have an excellent offering thanks to financing by the San Antonio Credit Union
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      > Anyone have interest in running some test equipment / sites?
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      >
      > --- On Mon, 1/16/12, kevin conlin <kevin@...> wrote:
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      >
      > From: kevin conlin <kevin@...>
      > Subject: RE: [hreg] Trade War with China Could Cripple US Solar Industry - responding
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, January 16, 2012, 6:18 PM
      >
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      >  
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      > Philip,
      >  
      > Please see my comments below….
      >  
      > Best Regards,
      >  
      > Kevin
      >  
      > Kevin Conlin
      > Heliosolar Design Inc
      > PO Box 1938
      > Alief, TX 77411
      > 281-202-9629
      > kevin@...
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >
      > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip Timmons
      > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 5:33 PM
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [hreg] Trade War with China Could Cripple US Solar Industry
      >  
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      >
      > Learned something from you, today.
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      >
      > Pick your brain with some market survey questions? 
      >
      >  
      >
      > 1.      Do you think there would be much interest in a combined electric power and hot water solar system?  Yes, it makes better economic sense, especially if the water heater backup element is turned off to avoid time of day pricing.  The solar water heater will probably outperform the PV system in terms of savings in an all electric home, but most of Houston has natural gas.
      >  
      >
      > 2. How about if space heat / cooling (A/C) were part of it? Again, yes, especially if an integrated system offered enhanced savings.  Smart home technology may be the bridge linking all of the technologies together, but the key will be using the right hardware and offering financing so the savings exceed the payments.
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      >  
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      > Thanks.
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      >
      >
      > --- On Mon, 1/16/12, kevin conlin <kevin@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: kevin conlin <kevin@...>
      > Subject: RE: [hreg] Trade War with China Could Cripple US Solar Industry
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, January 16, 2012, 5:27 PM
      >
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      > Solar thermal water heating is cost effective in Houston when replacing an electric water heater, but it’s a hard sell
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      > The problem is nobody in Houston gets excited about putting a water heater on their roof
      >  
      > Energy wise, China produces more solar water heaters than PV panels
      >  
      >
      > Kevin Conlin
      > Heliosolar Design Inc
      > PO Box 1938
      > Alief, TX 77411
      > 281-202-9629
      > kevin@...
      >  
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      >  
      >  
      >
      >
      > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrea Wisner
      > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 3:53 PM
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [hreg] Trade War with China Could Cripple US Solar Industry
      >  
      >
      >
      > I'm still wondering is there's a resource out there as to in which markets solar in cost-effective and which it's not. There was another email suggesting it's more cost-effective in Central America. What is the balance for Houston?
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      > Andrea
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      >
      > From: ralph parrott <ralph.parrott@...>
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 2:24 PM
      > Subject: [hreg] Trade War with China Could Cripple US Solar Industry
      >  
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      > Friday, January 13, 2012
      >
      >
      > Miami Herald
      > by Jigar Shah
      >
      > Six decades ago, Gen. Omar Bradley warned that expanding the Korean War into China would be "the wrong war, at the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong enemy." Now the same could be said about the trade war that is brewing with China in the solar energy industry.
      >
      > Cutting off China and threatening U.S. solar jobs started in October when a German company with a manufacturing facility in Oregon filed a trade complaint with the U.S. International Trade Commission and the Department of Commerce demanding that punitive tariffs be imposed on solar panels and cells imported from China. Just before New Year's Day, several U.S. manufacturers filed a similar petition against China and Vietnam seeking special surcharges on wind towers imported from these countries.
      >
      > Now that the first shots have been fired, there's a growing danger that China will retaliate. Already, China is considering asking the World Trade Organization to investigate alleged unfair practices in U.S. clean energy policies, including programs in Washington, California, New Jersey, Ohio and Massachusetts.
      >
      > If these frictions ignite a full-scale trade war, our country's casualties could include eliminating many of 100,000-plus good-paying jobs (which have been expected to grow to almost 124,000 at the end of 2012), delaying dozens of solar energy projects, raising prices for consumers, reducing our energy security, and reversing the progress of an industry that is running an all-too-rare trade surplus with the rest of the world, including China.
      >
      > For all the sound and fury, low prices for solar panels and cells aren't the problem, and protectionism isn't the solution. Several decades of private investment, public support and scientific progress are bearing fruit for a U.S. solar energy industry that now can generate electricity with costs, in some markets, that are competitive with power produced from fossil fuels.
      >
      > At a time when the growth rate in the entire economy is a sluggish 0.7 percent, the U.S. solar industry, now numbering almost 5,000 companies, is expanding at a rate of 6.8 percent a year. Since 2009, the sector has doubled its workforce, providing more than 100,000 high-skilled, high-wage jobs, including installers, technicians and professionals in scientific research, finance and allied services.
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      > Ralph Parrott
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      >  
      >
      > President
      >
      >
      >
      > http://www.txses.org/hreg
      >
      >  
      >
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