Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater

Expand Messages
  • John P. Matznick
    The payback is much like solar panels. A lot of money upfront and years for payback. We only track the 2 bed x 1 bath property in CA with the Noritz unit and
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 13, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      The payback is much like solar panels. A lot of money upfront and years for payback.
      We only track the 2 bed x 1 bath property in CA with the Noritz unit and the gas bill went from $50-60 in Summer and $75 in Winter to -$30 in Summer and about $45 in Winter on average.
      The heating is natural gas as well cooking so we cannot get an exact usage on the tankless itself. But you can see, without the pilot light an having to heat a 40-50 gal tank all day and night, the bill came down.
      By the way, the heating system and stove are electronic ignition, no pilot lights there either after we replaced all appliances and HVAC unit  in the renovation. So looking at all your gas appliances and systems as a whole and changing them out, you will see a decrease in your bill.

      Regards 
      John P. Matznick 
      Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
      Green Tech Fusion
      888.642.0226
      www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



      On Oct 13, 2011, at 9:56 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:

       

      Thanks everyone this is great information.
      I heard that the individual heaters are outlawed because they caused problems with electrocution when not properly installed. I would like more information so I will be contacting you offline. Do you know what the pay back of installing one would be after product purchase and installation. I know 2 days of plumbers will cost around 2,000, is that correct?

      --- On Wed, 10/12/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

      From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
      Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 5:57 PM

       
      We have installed gas tankless systems in our rental properties in CA and TX when replacing the original tank systems where needed or when they blew up.. no kidding. We lived over seas a number of years and got used to them and wanted to install them back in the States.
      The ones in our properties are INSIDE because they are expensive for a whole house unit, one installation was about $2500 and others from $600-2K so we did not want the units outside in the elements. The gas lines and exhaust are typical and like what Gino said so I am not sure why some installers say you HAVE to put them on the outside. I have rehabbed a number of properties and have not run into any code enforcement regarding that.
      We use Noritz units in CA.  One of them has been running for 7 years now in a 2 bed x 1 bath house and we have not had one single issue with it. The ones installed in TX properties are Noritz and Rheem. They all work pretty much the same and so far no problems. One issue that may come up from what some of my green colleagues in CA told me about  is possible mineral and other deposits build up in the tankless due to bad water. They said the fix is to put in a water softer or filtration system in front of the unit. Some of the real high end units have an electric system of some kind that cleans out these deposits if they build up.

      The tankless systems will not get hot water to your faucet any faster. There is cold water between the unit and your faucet that has to empty first. I have tried a couple tricks to try and get hot water faster without wasting water but nothing really speeds it up.
      I turn the hot water on for a second until the tankless click on. This heats the water in the coils first and then I turn the water on again a minute later. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't due to the flow control built in. If no water flows, the unit turns off.
      You can always do what they in Europe and put a tankless at point of use like showers and kitchen (electric 220V run to them, scary in the shower!). In larger houses it makes sense to have one under your sink in the kitchen, those tend to be electric 110V.

      I have also worked with Dan Philips in building custom recycled homes in Huntsville and he uses electric whole house units exclusively as to not complicate things by adding gas plumbing. They are 220V as well and heat up pretty good even though they are tiny. The houses are less that 1500-1900 sf however and electric cost more than gas to heat water. We did one build based on my recommendations where we added a home made solar thermal system and 20 gal tank on the second floor with a 12VDC recirculating pump. This was piped to the electric tankless downstairs which was installed closer to the electric panel.
      With this setup, the tankless pretty much only came on late in the evening for showers when the temperature setting on it fell below the 113 deg mark. Water will flow through the tankless even though it does not come on if the water in the 20 gal tank is hot enough.

      My next project is to install a propane tankless in my 5th Wheel RV. It uses a battery or 12VDC to light the burner. I sell a couple different models on my web site if someone wanted to try out an inexpensive tankess systems based on propane.

      Sorry for the rambling, you can see I am a big proponent of tankless. 

      Observations of tankless systems:
      - Gas units are more efficient and less costly to run than electric. There are natural gas, propane and both 220V and 110V electric units. The 110 V units tend to be under sink type.
      - There are indoor and outdoor specific models. If you want your indoors, you have the right as an owner to have an indoor model.
      - Japanese and European models I believe are better since they have been proven in Europe and Asia far longer than the USA.
      - Gas units do not need a pilot light on all the time to heat water. They do need electric to light the burner so 110V should be close by.
      - Tankless systems do not save water unless it is part of a hybrid tank and solar thermal setup. I have come up with another way to beat this problem if anyone is interested offline.
      - Tankless units drop your water pressure down a bit, not a lot but you can notice it. We use Oxygenics shower heads so we do not notice lack of water pressure all that much.
      - They are great for property resale value. We get comments all the time from prospective buyers on properties with tankless in them. They like the safety aspects and saving energy.

      Regards 
      John P. Matznick 
      Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
      Green Tech Fusion
      888.642.0226
      www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



      On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Gino Griego wrote:

       
      I think it takes the same amount of time honestly. The energy savings comes in the form of no pilot running and no water to re-heat over and over. The cost up front is there, however the warranty I believe is 20 years for our tankless.

      Thanks,

      Gino

      --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Barbara and Mike McGinity <mbmcginity@...> wrote:
      >
      > Gino,
      > We are looking at doing this and I have a question for you. We live in a 1954 ranch style house and with our current water heater, it takes about 2 minutes to get warm water to our bathroom farthest from the water heater. Do you find that the tankless gets hot water to you faster? I was wondering about the issue of putting in two.
      >
      > Thank you,
      > Barbara McGinity
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Gino Griego" <infidel7913@...>
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59:02 PM
      > Subject: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I installed a Rinnia 94si last November due to the old water heater leaking and ruining our ceiling and hardwood floor. I relocated it to our garage and had to run a one inch gas line. The vent is pricey, however you can touch it. Total materials was just north of $2000 with new roof jack for exhaust. We have a 3 bed/2 bath house built in 1987. Considering our children will be teens in a few years we went with 94 series. It is advertised for 4 bathrooms. We absolutely love receiving gas bills that are a 1/3 of the old system. Be aware if you have to increase the size of you gas supply line to 1" you should get a plumber to do the work. I grew up on the back of a plumbing truck and was confident enough to do the work my self. I am not sure what labor would run you, I would assume a couple days labor certainly. Hope this helps.
      >
      > Gino
      >
      > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com , Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Greetings,
      > > They are not supposed to be installed outside, but mine is. They are
      > > expensive. They use a 5inch flue, not the standard 3 inch that a
      > > regular hot water heater uses. Also, a solar back up unit is much
      > > preferable, an ordinary unit takes the incoming water, raises it x
      > > amount, and that is what you get. A real drag in the summer when the
      > > incoming water can be warm. A solar unit raises it to a certain
      > > temperature, regardless of the incoming temperature.
      > >
      > > For a family of five, you would need a whole house one, it will be very
      > > expensive. Mine works fine, as I don't care if only one hot water tap,
      > > whichever is closest to the heater, gets hot water at a time. There are
      > > only two of us.
      > >
      > > Bright Blessings,
      > > Garth & Kim Travis
      > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
      > > Bedias, Texas
      > > 936-395-0110
      > >
      > > On 10/12/2011 9:42 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:
      > > > What is the cost of a gas tankless water heater, including installation?
      > > > Is it less expensive than an electric tankless since you don't have to
      > > > change your electric system to accomodate the electric load? The price I
      > > > am looking for would be for a family of 5 (since it may vary according
      > > > to use) and the ideal unit would be one that could be installed outdoors
      > > > (not in the garage) to save room. Thank you, E.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > No virus found in this message.
      > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com < http://www.avg.com >
      > > > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4547 - Release Date: 10/11/11
      > > >
      > >
      >



    • John P. Matznick
      Forgot to answer your other question. Installation costs vary from state to state and local expertise in installation tankless systems. The installation in CA
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 13, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Forgot to answer your other question.
        Installation costs vary from state to state and local expertise in installation tankless systems. The installation in CA where about $600-800 and only took a few hours. It does take a bit longer if a larger gas line needs to be run or if electric also needs to be brought closer to where the tankless will be installed. Our TX install pricing was all over the place from $400-800 and most plumbers had never installed one so I had to work with them to make sure they where done right and I negotiated the install cost. The water plumbing is straight forward however having the proper sized gas line is important as well as shut off valves. The exhaust is also important and will add to the cost a bit.
        As far as the 110V under the counter on demand systems, I still see them for sale. Never heard of them being outlawed?? if they where, I would think garbage disposals would be outlawed as well.


        Regards 
        John P. Matznick 
        Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
        Green Tech Fusion
        888.642.0226
        www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



        On Oct 13, 2011, at 9:56 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:

         

        Thanks everyone this is great information.
        I heard that the individual heaters are outlawed because they caused problems with electrocution when not properly installed. I would like more information so I will be contacting you offline. Do you know what the pay back of installing one would be after product purchase and installation. I know 2 days of plumbers will cost around 2,000, is that correct?

        --- On Wed, 10/12/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

        From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
        Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 5:57 PM

         
        We have installed gas tankless systems in our rental properties in CA and TX when replacing the original tank systems where needed or when they blew up.. no kidding. We lived over seas a number of years and got used to them and wanted to install them back in the States.
        The ones in our properties are INSIDE because they are expensive for a whole house unit, one installation was about $2500 and others from $600-2K so we did not want the units outside in the elements. The gas lines and exhaust are typical and like what Gino said so I am not sure why some installers say you HAVE to put them on the outside. I have rehabbed a number of properties and have not run into any code enforcement regarding that.
        We use Noritz units in CA.  One of them has been running for 7 years now in a 2 bed x 1 bath house and we have not had one single issue with it. The ones installed in TX properties are Noritz and Rheem. They all work pretty much the same and so far no problems. One issue that may come up from what some of my green colleagues in CA told me about  is possible mineral and other deposits build up in the tankless due to bad water. They said the fix is to put in a water softer or filtration system in front of the unit. Some of the real high end units have an electric system of some kind that cleans out these deposits if they build up.

        The tankless systems will not get hot water to your faucet any faster. There is cold water between the unit and your faucet that has to empty first. I have tried a couple tricks to try and get hot water faster without wasting water but nothing really speeds it up.
        I turn the hot water on for a second until the tankless click on. This heats the water in the coils first and then I turn the water on again a minute later. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't due to the flow control built in. If no water flows, the unit turns off.
        You can always do what they in Europe and put a tankless at point of use like showers and kitchen (electric 220V run to them, scary in the shower!). In larger houses it makes sense to have one under your sink in the kitchen, those tend to be electric 110V.

        I have also worked with Dan Philips in building custom recycled homes in Huntsville and he uses electric whole house units exclusively as to not complicate things by adding gas plumbing. They are 220V as well and heat up pretty good even though they are tiny. The houses are less that 1500-1900 sf however and electric cost more than gas to heat water. We did one build based on my recommendations where we added a home made solar thermal system and 20 gal tank on the second floor with a 12VDC recirculating pump. This was piped to the electric tankless downstairs which was installed closer to the electric panel.
        With this setup, the tankless pretty much only came on late in the evening for showers when the temperature setting on it fell below the 113 deg mark. Water will flow through the tankless even though it does not come on if the water in the 20 gal tank is hot enough.

        My next project is to install a propane tankless in my 5th Wheel RV. It uses a battery or 12VDC to light the burner. I sell a couple different models on my web site if someone wanted to try out an inexpensive tankess systems based on propane.

        Sorry for the rambling, you can see I am a big proponent of tankless. 

        Observations of tankless systems:
        - Gas units are more efficient and less costly to run than electric. There are natural gas, propane and both 220V and 110V electric units. The 110 V units tend to be under sink type.
        - There are indoor and outdoor specific models. If you want your indoors, you have the right as an owner to have an indoor model.
        - Japanese and European models I believe are better since they have been proven in Europe and Asia far longer than the USA.
        - Gas units do not need a pilot light on all the time to heat water. They do need electric to light the burner so 110V should be close by.
        - Tankless systems do not save water unless it is part of a hybrid tank and solar thermal setup. I have come up with another way to beat this problem if anyone is interested offline.
        - Tankless units drop your water pressure down a bit, not a lot but you can notice it. We use Oxygenics shower heads so we do not notice lack of water pressure all that much.
        - They are great for property resale value. We get comments all the time from prospective buyers on properties with tankless in them. They like the safety aspects and saving energy.

        Regards 
        John P. Matznick 
        Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
        Green Tech Fusion
        888.642.0226
        www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



        On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Gino Griego wrote:

         
        I think it takes the same amount of time honestly. The energy savings comes in the form of no pilot running and no water to re-heat over and over. The cost up front is there, however the warranty I believe is 20 years for our tankless.

        Thanks,

        Gino

        --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Barbara and Mike McGinity <mbmcginity@...> wrote:
        >
        > Gino,
        > We are looking at doing this and I have a question for you. We live in a 1954 ranch style house and with our current water heater, it takes about 2 minutes to get warm water to our bathroom farthest from the water heater. Do you find that the tankless gets hot water to you faster? I was wondering about the issue of putting in two.
        >
        > Thank you,
        > Barbara McGinity
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Gino Griego" <infidel7913@...>
        > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59:02 PM
        > Subject: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I installed a Rinnia 94si last November due to the old water heater leaking and ruining our ceiling and hardwood floor. I relocated it to our garage and had to run a one inch gas line. The vent is pricey, however you can touch it. Total materials was just north of $2000 with new roof jack for exhaust. We have a 3 bed/2 bath house built in 1987. Considering our children will be teens in a few years we went with 94 series. It is advertised for 4 bathrooms. We absolutely love receiving gas bills that are a 1/3 of the old system. Be aware if you have to increase the size of you gas supply line to 1" you should get a plumber to do the work. I grew up on the back of a plumbing truck and was confident enough to do the work my self. I am not sure what labor would run you, I would assume a couple days labor certainly. Hope this helps.
        >
        > Gino
        >
        > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com , Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Greetings,
        > > They are not supposed to be installed outside, but mine is. They are
        > > expensive. They use a 5inch flue, not the standard 3 inch that a
        > > regular hot water heater uses. Also, a solar back up unit is much
        > > preferable, an ordinary unit takes the incoming water, raises it x
        > > amount, and that is what you get. A real drag in the summer when the
        > > incoming water can be warm. A solar unit raises it to a certain
        > > temperature, regardless of the incoming temperature.
        > >
        > > For a family of five, you would need a whole house one, it will be very
        > > expensive. Mine works fine, as I don't care if only one hot water tap,
        > > whichever is closest to the heater, gets hot water at a time. There are
        > > only two of us.
        > >
        > > Bright Blessings,
        > > Garth & Kim Travis
        > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
        > > Bedias, Texas
        > > 936-395-0110
        > >
        > > On 10/12/2011 9:42 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:
        > > > What is the cost of a gas tankless water heater, including installation?
        > > > Is it less expensive than an electric tankless since you don't have to
        > > > change your electric system to accomodate the electric load? The price I
        > > > am looking for would be for a family of 5 (since it may vary according
        > > > to use) and the ideal unit would be one that could be installed outdoors
        > > > (not in the garage) to save room. Thank you, E.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > No virus found in this message.
        > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com < http://www.avg.com >
        > > > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4547 - Release Date: 10/11/11
        > > >
        > >
        >



      • evelyn sardina
        I was reffering to the ones used on the shower heads. We had one back in the day but they don t sell them any more. I have checked. Thanks for all the
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 13, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          I was reffering to the ones used on the shower heads. We had one back in the day but they don't sell them any more. I have checked. Thanks for all the information. Seems price will be about 500 dollars for heater and 600 installation when it is all said and done. This information is very useful along with all other responses. Evelyn

          --- On Thu, 10/13/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

          From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
          Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:29 AM

           
          Forgot to answer your other question.
          Installation costs vary from state to state and local expertise in installation tankless systems. The installation in CA where about $600-800 and only took a few hours. It does take a bit longer if a larger gas line needs to be run or if electric also needs to be brought closer to where the tankless will be installed. Our TX install pricing was all over the place from $400-800 and most plumbers had never installed one so I had to work with them to make sure they where done right and I negotiated the install cost. The water plumbing is straight forward however having the proper sized gas line is important as well as shut off valves. The exhaust is also important and will add to the cost a bit.
          As far as the 110V under the counter on demand systems, I still see them for sale. Never heard of them being outlawed?? if they where, I would think garbage disposals would be outlawed as well.


          Regards 
          John P. Matznick 
          Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
          Green Tech Fusion
          888.642.0226
          www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



          On Oct 13, 2011, at 9:56 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:

           
          Thanks everyone this is great information.
          I heard that the individual heaters are outlawed because they caused problems with electrocution when not properly installed. I would like more information so I will be contacting you offline. Do you know what the pay back of installing one would be after product purchase and installation. I know 2 days of plumbers will cost around 2,000, is that correct?

          --- On Wed, 10/12/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

          From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
          Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 5:57 PM

           
          We have installed gas tankless systems in our rental properties in CA and TX when replacing the original tank systems where needed or when they blew up.. no kidding. We lived over seas a number of years and got used to them and wanted to install them back in the States.
          The ones in our properties are INSIDE because they are expensive for a whole house unit, one installation was about $2500 and others from $600-2K so we did not want the units outside in the elements. The gas lines and exhaust are typical and like what Gino said so I am not sure why some installers say you HAVE to put them on the outside. I have rehabbed a number of properties and have not run into any code enforcement regarding that.
          We use Noritz units in CA.  One of them has been running for 7 years now in a 2 bed x 1 bath house and we have not had one single issue with it. The ones installed in TX properties are Noritz and Rheem. They all work pretty much the same and so far no problems. One issue that may come up from what some of my green colleagues in CA told me about  is possible mineral and other deposits build up in the tankless due to bad water. They said the fix is to put in a water softer or filtration system in front of the unit. Some of the real high end units have an electric system of some kind that cleans out these deposits if they build up.

          The tankless systems will not get hot water to your faucet any faster. There is cold water between the unit and your faucet that has to empty first. I have tried a couple tricks to try and get hot water faster without wasting water but nothing really speeds it up.
          I turn the hot water on for a second until the tankless click on. This heats the water in the coils first and then I turn the water on again a minute later. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't due to the flow control built in. If no water flows, the unit turns off.
          You can always do what they in Europe and put a tankless at point of use like showers and kitchen (electric 220V run to them, scary in the shower!). In larger houses it makes sense to have one under your sink in the kitchen, those tend to be electric 110V.

          I have also worked with Dan Philips in building custom recycled homes in Huntsville and he uses electric whole house units exclusively as to not complicate things by adding gas plumbing. They are 220V as well and heat up pretty good even though they are tiny. The houses are less that 1500-1900 sf however and electric cost more than gas to heat water. We did one build based on my recommendations where we added a home made solar thermal system and 20 gal tank on the second floor with a 12VDC recirculating pump. This was piped to the electric tankless downstairs which was installed closer to the electric panel.
          With this setup, the tankless pretty much only came on late in the evening for showers when the temperature setting on it fell below the 113 deg mark. Water will flow through the tankless even though it does not come on if the water in the 20 gal tank is hot enough.

          My next project is to install a propane tankless in my 5th Wheel RV. It uses a battery or 12VDC to light the burner. I sell a couple different models on my web site if someone wanted to try out an inexpensive tankess systems based on propane.

          Sorry for the rambling, you can see I am a big proponent of tankless. 

          Observations of tankless systems:
          - Gas units are more efficient and less costly to run than electric. There are natural gas, propane and both 220V and 110V electric units. The 110 V units tend to be under sink type.
          - There are indoor and outdoor specific models. If you want your indoors, you have the right as an owner to have an indoor model.
          - Japanese and European models I believe are better since they have been proven in Europe and Asia far longer than the USA.
          - Gas units do not need a pilot light on all the time to heat water. They do need electric to light the burner so 110V should be close by.
          - Tankless systems do not save water unless it is part of a hybrid tank and solar thermal setup. I have come up with another way to beat this problem if anyone is interested offline.
          - Tankless units drop your water pressure down a bit, not a lot but you can notice it. We use Oxygenics shower heads so we do not notice lack of water pressure all that much.
          - They are great for property resale value. We get comments all the time from prospective buyers on properties with tankless in them. They like the safety aspects and saving energy.

          Regards 
          John P. Matznick 
          Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
          Green Tech Fusion
          888.642.0226
          www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



          On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Gino Griego wrote:

           
          I think it takes the same amount of time honestly. The energy savings comes in the form of no pilot running and no water to re-heat over and over. The cost up front is there, however the warranty I believe is 20 years for our tankless.

          Thanks,

          Gino

          --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Barbara and Mike McGinity <mbmcginity@...> wrote:
          >
          > Gino,
          > We are looking at doing this and I have a question for you. We live in a 1954 ranch style house and with our current water heater, it takes about 2 minutes to get warm water to our bathroom farthest from the water heater. Do you find that the tankless gets hot water to you faster? I was wondering about the issue of putting in two.
          >
          > Thank you,
          > Barbara McGinity
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Gino Griego" <infidel7913@...>
          > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59:02 PM
          > Subject: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I installed a Rinnia 94si last November due to the old water heater leaking and ruining our ceiling and hardwood floor. I relocated it to our garage and had to run a one inch gas line. The vent is pricey, however you can touch it. Total materials was just north of $2000 with new roof jack for exhaust. We have a 3 bed/2 bath house built in 1987. Considering our children will be teens in a few years we went with 94 series. It is advertised for 4 bathrooms. We absolutely love receiving gas bills that are a 1/3 of the old system. Be aware if you have to increase the size of you gas supply line to 1" you should get a plumber to do the work. I grew up on the back of a plumbing truck and was confident enough to do the work my self. I am not sure what labor would run you, I would assume a couple days labor certainly. Hope this helps.
          >
          > Gino
          >
          > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com , Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Greetings,
          > > They are not supposed to be installed outside, but mine is. They are
          > > expensive. They use a 5inch flue, not the standard 3 inch that a
          > > regular hot water heater uses. Also, a solar back up unit is much
          > > preferable, an ordinary unit takes the incoming water, raises it x
          > > amount, and that is what you get. A real drag in the summer when the
          > > incoming water can be warm. A solar unit raises it to a certain
          > > temperature, regardless of the incoming temperature.
          > >
          > > For a family of five, you would need a whole house one, it will be very
          > > expensive. Mine works fine, as I don't care if only one hot water tap,
          > > whichever is closest to the heater, gets hot water at a time. There are
          > > only two of us.
          > >
          > > Bright Blessings,
          > > Garth & Kim Travis
          > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
          > > Bedias, Texas
          > > 936-395-0110
          > >
          > > On 10/12/2011 9:42 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:
          > > > What is the cost of a gas tankless water heater, including installation?
          > > > Is it less expensive than an electric tankless since you don't have to
          > > > change your electric system to accomodate the electric load? The price I
          > > > am looking for would be for a family of 5 (since it may vary according
          > > > to use) and the ideal unit would be one that could be installed outdoors
          > > > (not in the garage) to save room. Thank you, E.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > No virus found in this message.
          > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com < http://www.avg.com >
          > > > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4547 - Release Date: 10/11/11
          > > >
          > >
          >



        • John P. Matznick
          Ahh OK. To tell you the truth, I have not run into the shower on demand units here in the States. We did use them all over Europe in a lot of the older, larger
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 13, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Ahh OK. To tell you the truth, I have not run into the shower on demand units here in the States. We did use them all over Europe in a lot of the older, larger homes.
            I never liked the idea of having that much voltage while in the shower.

            Regards 
            John P. Matznick 
            Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
            Green Tech Fusion
            888.642.0226
            www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



            On Oct 13, 2011, at 1:56 PM, evelyn sardina wrote:

             

            I was reffering to the ones used on the shower heads. We had one back in the day but they don't sell them any more. I have checked. Thanks for all the information. Seems price will be about 500 dollars for heater and 600 installation when it is all said and done. This information is very useful along with all other responses. Evelyn

            --- On Thu, 10/13/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

            From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
            Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:29 AM

             
            Forgot to answer your other question.
            Installation costs vary from state to state and local expertise in installation tankless systems. The installation in CA where about $600-800 and only took a few hours. It does take a bit longer if a larger gas line needs to be run or if electric also needs to be brought closer to where the tankless will be installed. Our TX install pricing was all over the place from $400-800 and most plumbers had never installed one so I had to work with them to make sure they where done right and I negotiated the install cost. The water plumbing is straight forward however having the proper sized gas line is important as well as shut off valves. The exhaust is also important and will add to the cost a bit.
            As far as the 110V under the counter on demand systems, I still see them for sale. Never heard of them being outlawed?? if they where, I would think garbage disposals would be outlawed as well.


            Regards 
            John P. Matznick 
            Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
            Green Tech Fusion
            888.642.0226
            www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



            On Oct 13, 2011, at 9:56 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:

             
            Thanks everyone this is great information.
            I heard that the individual heaters are outlawed because they caused problems with electrocution when not properly installed. I would like more information so I will be contacting you offline. Do you know what the pay back of installing one would be after product purchase and installation. I know 2 days of plumbers will cost around 2,000, is that correct?

            --- On Wed, 10/12/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

            From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
            Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 5:57 PM

             
            We have installed gas tankless systems in our rental properties in CA and TX when replacing the original tank systems where needed or when they blew up.. no kidding. We lived over seas a number of years and got used to them and wanted to install them back in the States.
            The ones in our properties are INSIDE because they are expensive for a whole house unit, one installation was about $2500 and others from $600-2K so we did not want the units outside in the elements. The gas lines and exhaust are typical and like what Gino said so I am not sure why some installers say you HAVE to put them on the outside. I have rehabbed a number of properties and have not run into any code enforcement regarding that.
            We use Noritz units in CA.  One of them has been running for 7 years now in a 2 bed x 1 bath house and we have not had one single issue with it. The ones installed in TX properties are Noritz and Rheem. They all work pretty much the same and so far no problems. One issue that may come up from what some of my green colleagues in CA told me about  is possible mineral and other deposits build up in the tankless due to bad water. They said the fix is to put in a water softer or filtration system in front of the unit. Some of the real high end units have an electric system of some kind that cleans out these deposits if they build up.

            The tankless systems will not get hot water to your faucet any faster. There is cold water between the unit and your faucet that has to empty first. I have tried a couple tricks to try and get hot water faster without wasting water but nothing really speeds it up.
            I turn the hot water on for a second until the tankless click on. This heats the water in the coils first and then I turn the water on again a minute later. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't due to the flow control built in. If no water flows, the unit turns off.
            You can always do what they in Europe and put a tankless at point of use like showers and kitchen (electric 220V run to them, scary in the shower!). In larger houses it makes sense to have one under your sink in the kitchen, those tend to be electric 110V.

            I have also worked with Dan Philips in building custom recycled homes in Huntsville and he uses electric whole house units exclusively as to not complicate things by adding gas plumbing. They are 220V as well and heat up pretty good even though they are tiny. The houses are less that 1500-1900 sf however and electric cost more than gas to heat water. We did one build based on my recommendations where we added a home made solar thermal system and 20 gal tank on the second floor with a 12VDC recirculating pump. This was piped to the electric tankless downstairs which was installed closer to the electric panel.
            With this setup, the tankless pretty much only came on late in the evening for showers when the temperature setting on it fell below the 113 deg mark. Water will flow through the tankless even though it does not come on if the water in the 20 gal tank is hot enough.

            My next project is to install a propane tankless in my 5th Wheel RV. It uses a battery or 12VDC to light the burner. I sell a couple different models on my web site if someone wanted to try out an inexpensive tankess systems based on propane.

            Sorry for the rambling, you can see I am a big proponent of tankless. 

            Observations of tankless systems:
            - Gas units are more efficient and less costly to run than electric. There are natural gas, propane and both 220V and 110V electric units. The 110 V units tend to be under sink type.
            - There are indoor and outdoor specific models. If you want your indoors, you have the right as an owner to have an indoor model.
            - Japanese and European models I believe are better since they have been proven in Europe and Asia far longer than the USA.
            - Gas units do not need a pilot light on all the time to heat water. They do need electric to light the burner so 110V should be close by.
            - Tankless systems do not save water unless it is part of a hybrid tank and solar thermal setup. I have come up with another way to beat this problem if anyone is interested offline.
            - Tankless units drop your water pressure down a bit, not a lot but you can notice it. We use Oxygenics shower heads so we do not notice lack of water pressure all that much.
            - They are great for property resale value. We get comments all the time from prospective buyers on properties with tankless in them. They like the safety aspects and saving energy.

            Regards 
            John P. Matznick 
            Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
            Green Tech Fusion
            888.642.0226
            www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



            On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Gino Griego wrote:

             
            I think it takes the same amount of time honestly. The energy savings comes in the form of no pilot running and no water to re-heat over and over. The cost up front is there, however the warranty I believe is 20 years for our tankless.

            Thanks,

            Gino

            --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Barbara and Mike McGinity <mbmcginity@...> wrote:
            >
            > Gino,
            > We are looking at doing this and I have a question for you. We live in a 1954 ranch style house and with our current water heater, it takes about 2 minutes to get warm water to our bathroom farthest from the water heater. Do you find that the tankless gets hot water to you faster? I was wondering about the issue of putting in two.
            >
            > Thank you,
            > Barbara McGinity
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Gino Griego" <infidel7913@...>
            > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59:02 PM
            > Subject: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I installed a Rinnia 94si last November due to the old water heater leaking and ruining our ceiling and hardwood floor. I relocated it to our garage and had to run a one inch gas line. The vent is pricey, however you can touch it. Total materials was just north of $2000 with new roof jack for exhaust. We have a 3 bed/2 bath house built in 1987. Considering our children will be teens in a few years we went with 94 series. It is advertised for 4 bathrooms. We absolutely love receiving gas bills that are a 1/3 of the old system. Be aware if you have to increase the size of you gas supply line to 1" you should get a plumber to do the work. I grew up on the back of a plumbing truck and was confident enough to do the work my self. I am not sure what labor would run you, I would assume a couple days labor certainly. Hope this helps.
            >
            > Gino
            >
            > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com , Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Greetings,
            > > They are not supposed to be installed outside, but mine is. They are
            > > expensive. They use a 5inch flue, not the standard 3 inch that a
            > > regular hot water heater uses. Also, a solar back up unit is much
            > > preferable, an ordinary unit takes the incoming water, raises it x
            > > amount, and that is what you get. A real drag in the summer when the
            > > incoming water can be warm. A solar unit raises it to a certain
            > > temperature, regardless of the incoming temperature.
            > >
            > > For a family of five, you would need a whole house one, it will be very
            > > expensive. Mine works fine, as I don't care if only one hot water tap,
            > > whichever is closest to the heater, gets hot water at a time. There are
            > > only two of us.
            > >
            > > Bright Blessings,
            > > Garth & Kim Travis
            > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
            > > Bedias, Texas
            > > 936-395-0110
            > >
            > > On 10/12/2011 9:42 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:
            > > > What is the cost of a gas tankless water heater, including installation?
            > > > Is it less expensive than an electric tankless since you don't have to
            > > > change your electric system to accomodate the electric load? The price I
            > > > am looking for would be for a family of 5 (since it may vary according
            > > > to use) and the ideal unit would be one that could be installed outdoors
            > > > (not in the garage) to save room. Thank you, E.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > No virus found in this message.
            > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com < http://www.avg.com >
            > > > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4547 - Release Date: 10/11/11
            > > >
            > >
            >




          • Henry Haynes
            I m jumping in this conversation a little late & confess I haven t read all of the input, so I apologize if some of this has been said. We replaced the
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 14, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              I'm jumping in this conversation a little late & confess I haven't read all of the input, so I apologize if some of this has been said.  We replaced the conventional gas water heater in our little house with 3 tankless 220v units.  We considered both gas & electric tankless & went w/ electric.  We put a moderate sized unit in the master bath & another in the kitchen to service the kitchen & utility room.  We put a much smaller one in the powder room.  One of the main advantages of electric over gas (for us anyway) was that venting is not required, so they can be installed virtually anywhere.  The one in the kitchen is under the sink.  The one in the master bath is in the dirty clothes hamper.  (BTW, they're absolutely cool to the touch, so no heat worries.....also indicates efficiency, right?)  And, the small one is under the bathroom sink.  By going "point of use" you waste minimal energy & water waiting for warm up.  A secondary advantage of point of use.......We gained a "Costco pantry" where the old water heater closet was.  We've had them a couple of years (probably longer if I were to check the receipts), and we love them.

              HHH

              On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:44 PM, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:
               

              Ahh OK. To tell you the truth, I have not run into the shower on demand units here in the States. We did use them all over Europe in a lot of the older, larger homes.

              I never liked the idea of having that much voltage while in the shower.

              Regards 
              John P. Matznick 
              Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
              Green Tech Fusion
              www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



              On Oct 13, 2011, at 1:56 PM, evelyn sardina wrote:

               

              I was reffering to the ones used on the shower heads. We had one back in the day but they don't sell them any more. I have checked. Thanks for all the information. Seems price will be about 500 dollars for heater and 600 installation when it is all said and done. This information is very useful along with all other responses. Evelyn

              --- On Thu, 10/13/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

              From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
              Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:29 AM

               
              Forgot to answer your other question.
              Installation costs vary from state to state and local expertise in installation tankless systems. The installation in CA where about $600-800 and only took a few hours. It does take a bit longer if a larger gas line needs to be run or if electric also needs to be brought closer to where the tankless will be installed. Our TX install pricing was all over the place from $400-800 and most plumbers had never installed one so I had to work with them to make sure they where done right and I negotiated the install cost. The water plumbing is straight forward however having the proper sized gas line is important as well as shut off valves. The exhaust is also important and will add to the cost a bit.
              As far as the 110V under the counter on demand systems, I still see them for sale. Never heard of them being outlawed?? if they where, I would think garbage disposals would be outlawed as well.


              Regards 
              John P. Matznick 
              Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
              Green Tech Fusion
              www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



              On Oct 13, 2011, at 9:56 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:

               
              Thanks everyone this is great information.
              I heard that the individual heaters are outlawed because they caused problems with electrocution when not properly installed. I would like more information so I will be contacting you offline. Do you know what the pay back of installing one would be after product purchase and installation. I know 2 days of plumbers will cost around 2,000, is that correct?

              --- On Wed, 10/12/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

              From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
              Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 5:57 PM

               
              We have installed gas tankless systems in our rental properties in CA and TX when replacing the original tank systems where needed or when they blew up.. no kidding. We lived over seas a number of years and got used to them and wanted to install them back in the States.
              The ones in our properties are INSIDE because they are expensive for a whole house unit, one installation was about $2500 and others from $600-2K so we did not want the units outside in the elements. The gas lines and exhaust are typical and like what Gino said so I am not sure why some installers say you HAVE to put them on the outside. I have rehabbed a number of properties and have not run into any code enforcement regarding that.
              We use Noritz units in CA.  One of them has been running for 7 years now in a 2 bed x 1 bath house and we have not had one single issue with it. The ones installed in TX properties are Noritz and Rheem. They all work pretty much the same and so far no problems. One issue that may come up from what some of my green colleagues in CA told me about  is possible mineral and other deposits build up in the tankless due to bad water. They said the fix is to put in a water softer or filtration system in front of the unit. Some of the real high end units have an electric system of some kind that cleans out these deposits if they build up.

              The tankless systems will not get hot water to your faucet any faster. There is cold water between the unit and your faucet that has to empty first. I have tried a couple tricks to try and get hot water faster without wasting water but nothing really speeds it up.
              I turn the hot water on for a second until the tankless click on. This heats the water in the coils first and then I turn the water on again a minute later. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't due to the flow control built in. If no water flows, the unit turns off.
              You can always do what they in Europe and put a tankless at point of use like showers and kitchen (electric 220V run to them, scary in the shower!). In larger houses it makes sense to have one under your sink in the kitchen, those tend to be electric 110V.

              I have also worked with Dan Philips in building custom recycled homes in Huntsville and he uses electric whole house units exclusively as to not complicate things by adding gas plumbing. They are 220V as well and heat up pretty good even though they are tiny. The houses are less that 1500-1900 sf however and electric cost more than gas to heat water. We did one build based on my recommendations where we added a home made solar thermal system and 20 gal tank on the second floor with a 12VDC recirculating pump. This was piped to the electric tankless downstairs which was installed closer to the electric panel.
              With this setup, the tankless pretty much only came on late in the evening for showers when the temperature setting on it fell below the 113 deg mark. Water will flow through the tankless even though it does not come on if the water in the 20 gal tank is hot enough.

              My next project is to install a propane tankless in my 5th Wheel RV. It uses a battery or 12VDC to light the burner. I sell a couple different models on my web site if someone wanted to try out an inexpensive tankess systems based on propane.

              Sorry for the rambling, you can see I am a big proponent of tankless. 

              Observations of tankless systems:
              - Gas units are more efficient and less costly to run than electric. There are natural gas, propane and both 220V and 110V electric units. The 110 V units tend to be under sink type.
              - There are indoor and outdoor specific models. If you want your indoors, you have the right as an owner to have an indoor model.
              - Japanese and European models I believe are better since they have been proven in Europe and Asia far longer than the USA.
              - Gas units do not need a pilot light on all the time to heat water. They do need electric to light the burner so 110V should be close by.
              - Tankless systems do not save water unless it is part of a hybrid tank and solar thermal setup. I have come up with another way to beat this problem if anyone is interested offline.
              - Tankless units drop your water pressure down a bit, not a lot but you can notice it. We use Oxygenics shower heads so we do not notice lack of water pressure all that much.
              - They are great for property resale value. We get comments all the time from prospective buyers on properties with tankless in them. They like the safety aspects and saving energy.

              Regards 
              John P. Matznick 
              Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
              Green Tech Fusion
              www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



              On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Gino Griego wrote:

               
              I think it takes the same amount of time honestly. The energy savings comes in the form of no pilot running and no water to re-heat over and over. The cost up front is there, however the warranty I believe is 20 years for our tankless.

              Thanks,

              Gino

              --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Barbara and Mike McGinity <mbmcginity@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gino,
              > We are looking at doing this and I have a question for you. We live in a 1954 ranch style house and with our current water heater, it takes about 2 minutes to get warm water to our bathroom farthest from the water heater. Do you find that the tankless gets hot water to you faster? I was wondering about the issue of putting in two.
              >
              > Thank you,
              > Barbara McGinity
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Gino Griego" <infidel7913@...>
              > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59:02 PM
              > Subject: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I installed a Rinnia 94si last November due to the old water heater leaking and ruining our ceiling and hardwood floor. I relocated it to our garage and had to run a one inch gas line. The vent is pricey, however you can touch it. Total materials was just north of $2000 with new roof jack for exhaust. We have a 3 bed/2 bath house built in 1987. Considering our children will be teens in a few years we went with 94 series. It is advertised for 4 bathrooms. We absolutely love receiving gas bills that are a 1/3 of the old system. Be aware if you have to increase the size of you gas supply line to 1" you should get a plumber to do the work. I grew up on the back of a plumbing truck and was confident enough to do the work my self. I am not sure what labor would run you, I would assume a couple days labor certainly. Hope this helps.
              >
              > Gino
              >
              > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com , Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Greetings,
              > > They are not supposed to be installed outside, but mine is. They are
              > > expensive. They use a 5inch flue, not the standard 3 inch that a
              > > regular hot water heater uses. Also, a solar back up unit is much
              > > preferable, an ordinary unit takes the incoming water, raises it x
              > > amount, and that is what you get. A real drag in the summer when the
              > > incoming water can be warm. A solar unit raises it to a certain
              > > temperature, regardless of the incoming temperature.
              > >
              > > For a family of five, you would need a whole house one, it will be very
              > > expensive. Mine works fine, as I don't care if only one hot water tap,
              > > whichever is closest to the heater, gets hot water at a time. There are
              > > only two of us.
              > >
              > > Bright Blessings,
              > > Garth & Kim Travis
              > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
              > > Bedias, Texas
              > > 936-395-0110
              > >
              > > On 10/12/2011 9:42 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:
              > > > What is the cost of a gas tankless water heater, including installation?
              > > > Is it less expensive than an electric tankless since you don't have to
              > > > change your electric system to accomodate the electric load? The price I
              > > > am looking for would be for a family of 5 (since it may vary according
              > > > to use) and the ideal unit would be one that could be installed outdoors
              > > > (not in the garage) to save room. Thank you, E.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > No virus found in this message.
              > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com < http://www.avg.com >
              > > > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4547 - Release Date: 10/11/11
              > > >
              > >
              >





            • Scarsella, Thomas M. (JSC-IC8)[DB Consult
              We also acquired a pantry in the space where our existing hot water tank had been. We opted for gas because there was an existing wall penetration for the
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 14, 2011
              • 0 Attachment

                We also acquired a pantry in the space where our existing hot water tank had been.  We opted for gas because there was an existing wall penetration for the vent and we liked knowing that if we lost electric power for a few days we could at least get decent showers.  The kitchen range is also gas for similar reasons. 

                 

                Post-Ike I was back at work for a week while power was still out at the house.  I’m sure my co-workers appreciated our opting for gas.

                 

                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Henry Haynes
                Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 7:08 AM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater

                 

                 

                I'm jumping in this conversation a little late & confess I haven't read all of the input, so I apologize if some of this has been said.  We replaced the conventional gas water heater in our little house with 3 tankless 220v units.  We considered both gas & electric tankless & went w/ electric.  We put a moderate sized unit in the master bath & another in the kitchen to service the kitchen & utility room.  We put a much smaller one in the powder room.  One of the main advantages of electric over gas (for us anyway) was that venting is not required, so they can be installed virtually anywhere.  The one in the kitchen is under the sink.  The one in the master bath is in the dirty clothes hamper.  (BTW, they're absolutely cool to the touch, so no heat worries.....also indicates efficiency, right?)  And, the small one is under the bathroom sink.  By going "point of use" you waste minimal energy & water waiting for warm up.  A secondary advantage of point of use.......We gained a "Costco pantry" where the old water heater closet was.  We've had them a couple of years (probably longer if I were to check the receipts), and we love them.

                HHH

                On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:44 PM, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

                 

                Ahh OK. To tell you the truth, I have not run into the shower on demand units here in the States. We did use them all over Europe in a lot of the older, larger homes.

                I never liked the idea of having that much voltage while in the shower.

                 

                Regards 

                John P. Matznick 

                Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant

                Green Tech Fusion

                www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies

                 

                 

                 

                On Oct 13, 2011, at 1:56 PM, evelyn sardina wrote:



                 

                I was reffering to the ones used on the shower heads. We had one back in the day but they don't sell them any more. I have checked. Thanks for all the information. Seems price will be about 500 dollars for heater and 600 installation when it is all said and done. This information is very useful along with all other responses. Evelyn

                --- On Thu, 10/13/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:


                From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:29 AM

                 

                Forgot to answer your other question.

                Installation costs vary from state to state and local expertise in installation tankless systems. The installation in CA where about $600-800 and only took a few hours. It does take a bit longer if a larger gas line needs to be run or if electric also needs to be brought closer to where the tankless will be installed. Our TX install pricing was all over the place from $400-800 and most plumbers had never installed one so I had to work with them to make sure they where done right and I negotiated the install cost. The water plumbing is straight forward however having the proper sized gas line is important as well as shut off valves. The exhaust is also important and will add to the cost a bit.

                As far as the 110V under the counter on demand systems, I still see them for sale. Never heard of them being outlawed?? if they where, I would think garbage disposals would be outlawed as well.

                 

                 

                Regards 

                John P. Matznick 

                Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant

                Green Tech Fusion

                www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies

                 

                 

                 

                On Oct 13, 2011, at 9:56 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:



                 

                Thanks everyone this is great information.

                I heard that the individual heaters are outlawed because they caused problems with electrocution when not properly installed. I would like more information so I will be contacting you offline. Do you know what the pay back of installing one would be after product purchase and installation. I know 2 days of plumbers will cost around 2,000, is that correct?

                --- On Wed, 10/12/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:


                From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 5:57 PM

                 

                We have installed gas tankless systems in our rental properties in CA and TX when replacing the original tank systems where needed or when they blew up.. no kidding. We lived over seas a number of years and got used to them and wanted to install them back in the States.

                The ones in our properties are INSIDE because they are expensive for a whole house unit, one installation was about $2500 and others from $600-2K so we did not want the units outside in the elements. The gas lines and exhaust are typical and like what Gino said so I am not sure why some installers say you HAVE to put them on the outside. I have rehabbed a number of properties and have not run into any code enforcement regarding that.

                We use Noritz units in CA.  One of them has been running for 7 years now in a 2 bed x 1 bath house and we have not had one single issue with it. The ones installed in TX properties are Noritz and Rheem. They all work pretty much the same and so far no problems. One issue that may come up from what some of my green colleagues in CA told me about  is possible mineral and other deposits build up in the tankless due to bad water. They said the fix is to put in a water softer or filtration system in front of the unit. Some of the real high end units have an electric system of some kind that cleans out these deposits if they build up.

                 

                The tankless systems will not get hot water to your faucet any faster. There is cold water between the unit and your faucet that has to empty first. I have tried a couple tricks to try and get hot water faster without wasting water but nothing really speeds it up.

                I turn the hot water on for a second until the tankless click on. This heats the water in the coils first and then I turn the water on again a minute later. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't due to the flow control built in. If no water flows, the unit turns off.

                You can always do what they in Europe and put a tankless at point of use like showers and kitchen (electric 220V run to them, scary in the shower!). In larger houses it makes sense to have one under your sink in the kitchen, those tend to be electric 110V.

                 

                I have also worked with Dan Philips in building custom recycled homes in Huntsville and he uses electric whole house units exclusively as to not complicate things by adding gas plumbing. They are 220V as well and heat up pretty good even though they are tiny. The houses are less that 1500-1900 sf however and electric cost more than gas to heat water. We did one build based on my recommendations where we added a home made solar thermal system and 20 gal tank on the second floor with a 12VDC recirculating pump. This was piped to the electric tankless downstairs which was installed closer to the electric panel.

                With this setup, the tankless pretty much only came on late in the evening for showers when the temperature setting on it fell below the 113 deg mark. Water will flow through the tankless even though it does not come on if the water in the 20 gal tank is hot enough.

                 

                My next project is to install a propane tankless in my 5th Wheel RV. It uses a battery or 12VDC to light the burner. I sell a couple different models on my web site if someone wanted to try out an inexpensive tankess systems based on propane.

                 

                Sorry for the rambling, you can see I am a big proponent of tankless. 

                 

                Observations of tankless systems:

                - Gas units are more efficient and less costly to run than electric. There are natural gas, propane and both 220V and 110V electric units. The 110 V units tend to be under sink type.

                - There are indoor and outdoor specific models. If you want your indoors, you have the right as an owner to have an indoor model.

                - Japanese and European models I believe are better since they have been proven in Europe and Asia far longer than the USA.

                - Gas units do not need a pilot light on all the time to heat water. They do need electric to light the burner so 110V should be close by.

                - Tankless systems do not save water unless it is part of a hybrid tank and solar thermal setup. I have come up with another way to beat this problem if anyone is interested offline.

                - Tankless units drop your water pressure down a bit, not a lot but you can notice it. We use Oxygenics shower heads so we do not notice lack of water pressure all that much.

                - They are great for property resale value. We get comments all the time from prospective buyers on properties with tankless in them. They like the safety aspects and saving energy.

                 

                Regards 

                John P. Matznick 

                Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant

                Green Tech Fusion

                www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies

                 

                 

                 

                On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Gino Griego wrote:



                 

                I think it takes the same amount of time honestly. The energy savings comes in the form of no pilot running and no water to re-heat over and over. The cost up front is there, however the warranty I believe is 20 years for our tankless.

                Thanks,

                Gino

                --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Barbara and Mike McGinity <mbmcginity@...> wrote:
                >
                > Gino,
                > We are looking at doing this and I have a question for you. We live in a 1954 ranch style house and with our current water heater, it takes about 2 minutes to get warm water to our bathroom farthest from the water heater. Do you find that the tankless gets hot water to you faster? I was wondering about the issue of putting in two.
                >
                > Thank you,
                > Barbara McGinity
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Gino Griego" <infidel7913@...>
                > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59:02 PM
                > Subject: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I installed a Rinnia 94si last November due to the old water heater leaking and ruining our ceiling and hardwood floor. I relocated it to our garage and had to run a one inch gas line. The vent is pricey, however you can touch it. Total materials was just north of $2000 with new roof jack for exhaust. We have a 3 bed/2 bath house built in 1987. Considering our children will be teens in a few years we went with 94 series. It is advertised for 4 bathrooms. We absolutely love receiving gas bills that are a 1/3 of the old system. Be aware if you have to increase the size of you gas supply line to 1" you should get a plumber to do the work. I grew up on the back of a plumbing truck and was confident enough to do the work my self. I am not sure what labor would run you, I would assume a couple days labor certainly. Hope this helps.
                >
                > Gino
                >
                > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com , Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Greetings,
                > > They are not supposed to be installed outside, but mine is. They are
                > > expensive. They use a 5inch flue, not the standard 3 inch that a
                > > regular hot water heater uses. Also, a solar back up unit is much
                > > preferable, an ordinary unit takes the incoming water, raises it x
                > > amount, and that is what you get. A real drag in the summer when the
                > > incoming water can be warm. A solar unit raises it to a certain
                > > temperature, regardless of the incoming temperature.
                > >
                > > For a family of five, you would need a whole house one, it will be very
                > > expensive. Mine works fine, as I don't care if only one hot water tap,
                > > whichever is closest to the heater, gets hot water at a time. There are
                > > only two of us.
                > >
                > > Bright Blessings,
                > > Garth & Kim Travis
                > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                > > Bedias, Texas
                > > 936-395-0110
                > >
                > > On 10/12/2011 9:42 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:
                > > > What is the cost of a gas tankless water heater, including installation?
                > > > Is it less expensive than an electric tankless since you don't have to
                > > > change your electric system to accomodate the electric load? The price I
                > > > am looking for would be for a family of 5 (since it may vary according
                > > > to use) and the ideal unit would be one that could be installed outdoors
                > > > (not in the garage) to save room. Thank you, E.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > No virus found in this message.
                > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com < http://www.avg.com >
                > > > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4547 - Release Date: 10/11/11
                > > >
                > >
                >

                 

                 

              • Henry Haynes
                Good point.....one good storm & it s cold showers until the power comes back on. We ve been very lucky (possibly because we live near the Med Center), but our
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 14, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Good point.....one good storm & it's cold showers until the power comes back on.  We've been very lucky (possibly because we live near the Med Center), but our power outages seem to be over in a few hours max.


                  On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Scarsella, Thomas M. (JSC-IC8)[DB Consulting Group, Inc.] <Thomas.m.scarsella@...> wrote:
                   

                  We also acquired a pantry in the space where our existing hot water tank had been.  We opted for gas because there was an existing wall penetration for the vent and we liked knowing that if we lost electric power for a few days we could at least get decent showers.  The kitchen range is also gas for similar reasons. 

                   

                  Post-Ike I was back at work for a week while power was still out at the house.  I’m sure my co-workers appreciated our opting for gas.

                   

                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Henry Haynes
                  Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 7:08 AM
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com


                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater

                   

                   

                  I'm jumping in this conversation a little late & confess I haven't read all of the input, so I apologize if some of this has been said.  We replaced the conventional gas water heater in our little house with 3 tankless 220v units.  We considered both gas & electric tankless & went w/ electric.  We put a moderate sized unit in the master bath & another in the kitchen to service the kitchen & utility room.  We put a much smaller one in the powder room.  One of the main advantages of electric over gas (for us anyway) was that venting is not required, so they can be install! ed virtually anywhere.  The one in the kitchen is under the sink.  The one in the master bath is in the dirty clothes hamper.  (BTW, they're absolutely cool to the touch, so no heat worries.....also indicates efficiency, right?)  And, the small one is under the bathroom sink.  By going "point of use" you waste minimal energy & water waiting for warm up.  A secondary advantage of point of use.......We gained a "Costco pantry" where the old water heater closet was.  We've had them a couple of years (probably longer if I were to check the receipts), and we love them.

                  HHH

                  On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:44 PM, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

                   

                  Ahh OK. To tell you the truth, I have not run into the shower on demand units here in the States. We did use them all over Europe in a lot of the older, larger homes.

                  I never liked the idea of having that much voltage while in the shower.

                   

                  Regards 

                  John P. Matznick 

                  Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant

                  !

                  Green Tech Fusion

                  www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies

                   

                   

                   

                  On Oct 13, 2011, at 1:56 PM, evelyn sardina wrote:



                   

                  I was reffering to the ones used on the shower heads. We had one back in the day but they don't sell them any more. I have checked. Thanks for all the information. Seems price will be about 500 dollars for heater and 600 installation when it is all said and done. This information is very useful along with all other responses. Evelyn

                  --- On Thu, 10/13/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:


                  From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:29 AM

                   

                  Forgot to answer your other question.

                  Installation costs vary from state to state and local expertise in installation tankless systems. The installation in CA where about $600-800 and only took a few hours. It does take a bit longer if a larger gas line needs to be run or if electric also needs to be brought closer to where the tankless will be installed. Our TX install pricing was all over the place from $400-800 and most plumbers had never installed one so I had to work with them to make sure they where done right and I negotiated the install cost. The water plumbing is straight forward however having the proper sized gas line is important as well as shut off valves. The exhaust is also important and will add to the cost a bit.

                  As far as the 110V under the counter on demand systems, I still see them for sale. Never heard of them being outlawed?? if they where, I would think garbage disposals would be outlawed as well.

                   

                   

                  Regards 

                  John P. Matznick 

                  Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant!

                  Green Tech Fusion

                  www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies

                   

                   

                   

                  On Oct 13, 2011, at 9:56 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:



                   

                  Thanks everyone this is great information.

                  I heard that the individual heaters are outlawed because they caused problems with electrocution when not properly installed. I would like more information so I will be contacting you offline. Do you know what the pay back of installing one would be after product purchase and installation. I know 2 days of plumbers will cost around 2,000, is that correct?

                  --- On Wed, 10/12/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:


                  From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 5:57 PM

                   

                  We have installed gas tankless systems in our rental properties in CA and TX when replacing the original tank systems where needed or when they blew up.. no kidding. We lived over seas a number of years and got used to them and wanted to install them back in the States.

                  The ones in our properties are INSIDE because they are expensive for a whole house unit, one installation was about $2500 and others from $600-2K so we did not want the units outside in the elements. The gas lines and exhaust are typical and like what Gino said so I am not sure why some installers say you HAVE to put them on the outside. I have rehabbed a number of properties and have not run into any code enforcement regarding that.

                  We use Noritz units in CA.  One of them has been running for 7 years now in a 2 bed x 1 bath house and we have not had one single issue with it. The ones installed in TX properties are Noritz and Rheem. They all work pretty much the same and so far no problems. One issue that may come up from what some of my green colleagues in CA told me about  is possible mineral and other deposits build up in the tankless due to bad water. They said the fix is to put in a water softer or filtration system in front of the unit. Some of the real high end units have an electric system of some kind that cleans out these deposits if they build up.

                   

                  The tankless systems will not get hot water to your faucet any faster. There is cold water between the! unit and your faucet that has to empty first. I have tried a couple tricks to try and get hot water faster without wasting water but nothing really speeds it up.

                  I turn the hot water on for a second until the tankless click on. This heats the water in the coils first and then I turn the water on again a minute later. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't due to the flow control built in. If no water flows, the unit turns off.

                  You can always do what they in Europe and put a tankless at point of use like showers and kitchen (electric 220V run to them, scary in the shower!). In larger houses it makes sense to have one under your sink in the kitchen, those tend to be electric 110V.

                   

                  I have also worked with Dan Philips in building custom recycled homes in Huntsville and he uses electric whole house units exclusively as to not complicate things by adding gas plumbing. They are 220V as well and heat up pretty good even though they are tiny. The houses are less that 1500-1900 sf however and electric cost more than gas to heat water. We did one build based on my recommendations where we added a home made solar thermal system and 20 gal tank on the second floor with a 12VDC recirculating pump. This was piped to the electric tankless downstairs which was installed closer to the electric panel.

                  With this setup, the tankless pretty much only came on late in the evening for showers when the temperature setting on it fell below the 113 deg mark. Water will flow through the tankless even though it does not come on if the water in the 20 gal tank is hot enough.

                   

                  My next project is to install a propane tankless in my 5th Wheel RV. It uses a battery or 12VDC to light the burner. I sell a couple different models on my web site if so! meone wanted to try out an inexpensive tankess systems based on propane.

                   

                  Sorry for the rambling, you can see I am a big proponent of tankless. 

                   

                  Observations of tankless systems:

                  - Gas units are more efficient and less costly to run than electric. There are natural gas, propane and both 220V and 110V electric units. The 110 V units tend to be under sink type.

                  - There are indoor and outdoor specific models. If you want your indoors, you have the right as an owner to have an indoor model.

                  - Japanese and European models I believe are better since they have been proven in Europe and Asia far longer than the USA.

                  - Gas units do not need a pilot light on all the time to heat water. They do need electric to light the burner so 110V should be close by.

                  - Tankless systems do not save water unless it is part of a hybrid tank and solar thermal setup. I have come up with another way to beat this problem if anyone is interested offline.

                  - Tankless units drop your water pressure down a bit, not a lot but you can notice it. We use Oxygenics shower heads so we do not notice lack of water pressure all that much.

                  - They are great for property resale value. We get comments all the time from prospective buyers on properties with tankless in them. They like the safety aspects and saving energy.

                   

                  Regards 

                  John P. Matznick 

                  Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant

                  Green Tech Fusion

                  www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies

                   

                   

                   

                  On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Gino Griego wrote:



                   

                  I think it takes the same amount of time honestly. The energy savings comes in the form of no pilot running and no water to re-heat over and over. The cost up front is there, however the warranty I believe is 20 years for our tankless.

                  Thanks,

                  Gino

                  --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Barbara and Mike McGinity <mbmcginity@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Gino,
                  > We are! looking at doing this and I have a question for you. We live in a 1954 ranch style house and with our current water heater, it takes about 2 minutes to get warm water to our bathroom farthest from the water heater. Do you find that the tankless gets hot water to you faster? I was wondering about the issue of putting in two.
                  >
                  > Thank you,
                  > Barbara McGinity
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Gino Griego" <infidel7913@...>
                  > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59:02 PM
                  > Subject: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I installed a Rinnia 94si last November due to the old water heater leaking and ruining our ceiling and hardwood floor. I relocated it to our garage and had to run a one inch gas line. The vent is pricey, however you can touch it. Total materials was just north of $2000 with new roof jack for exhaust. We have a 3 bed/2 bath house built in 1987. Considering our children will be teens in a few years we went with 94 series. It is advertised for 4 bathrooms. We absolutely love receiving gas bills that are a 1/3 of the old system. Be aware if you have to increase the size of you gas supply line to 1" you should get a plumber to do the work. I grew up on the back of a plumbing truck and was confident enough to do the work my self. I am not sure what labor would run you, I would assume a couple days labor certainly. Hope this helps.
                  >
                  > Gino
                  >
                  > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com , Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Greetings,
                  > > They are not supposed to be installed outside, but mine is. They are
                  > > expensive. They use a 5inch flue, not the standard 3 inc! h that a
                  > > regular hot water heater uses. Also, a solar back up unit is much
                  > > preferable, an ordinary unit takes the incoming water, raises it x
                  > > amount, and that is what you get. A real drag in the summer when the
                  > > incoming water can be warm. A solar unit raises it to a certain
                  > > temperature, regardless of the incoming temperature.
                  > >
                  > > For a family of five, you would need a whole house one, it will be very
                  > > expensive. Mine works fine, as I don't care if only one hot water tap,
                  > > whichever is closest to the heater, gets hot water at a time. There are
                  > > only two of us.
                  > >
                  > > Bright Blessings,
                  > > Garth & Kim Travis
                  > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                  > > Bedias, Texas
                  > > 936-395-0110
                  > >
                  > > On 10/12/2011 9:42 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:
                  > > > What is the cost of a gas tankless water heater, including installation?
                  > > > Is it less expensive than an electric tankless since you don't have to
                  > > > change your electric system to accomodate the electric load? The price I
                  > > > am looking for would be for a family of 5 (since it may vary according
                  > > > to use) and the ideal unit would be one that could be installed outdoors
                  > > > (not in the garage) to save room. Thank you, E.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > No virus found in this message.
                  > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com < http://www.avg.com >
                  > > > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4547 - Release Date: 10/11/11
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >

                   

                   


                • evelyn sardina
                  What was the total cost of installation and product price back in the day? Did you have to install higher voltage lines on your house? ... From: Henry Haynes
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 14, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    What was the total cost of installation and product price back in the day? Did you have to install higher voltage lines on your house?

                    --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...> wrote:

                    From: Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...>
                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 7:08 AM

                     
                    I'm jumping in this conversation a little late & confess I haven't read all of the input, so I apologize if some of this has been said.  We replaced the conventional gas water heater in our little house with 3 tankless 220v units.  We considered both gas & electric tankless & went w/ electric.  We put a moderate sized unit in the master bath & another in the kitchen to service the kitchen & utility room.  We put a much smaller one in the powder room.  One of the main advantages of electric over gas (for us anyway) was that venting is not required, so they can be installed virtually anywhere.  The one in the kitchen is under the sink.  The one in the master bath is in the dirty clothes hamper.  (BTW, they're absolutely cool to the touch, so no heat worries.....also indicates efficiency, right?)  And, the small one is under the bathroom sink.  By going "point of use" you waste minimal energy & water waiting for warm up.  A secondary advantage of point of use.......We gained a "Costco pantry" where the old water heater closet was.  We've had them a couple of years (probably longer if I were to check the receipts), and we love them.

                    HHH

                    On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:44 PM, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:
                     
                    Ahh OK. To tell you the truth, I have not run into the shower on demand units here in the States. We did use them all over Europe in a lot of the older, larger homes.
                    I never liked the idea of having that much voltage while in the shower.

                    Regards 
                    John P. Matznick 
                    Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                    Green Tech Fusion
                    www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                    On Oct 13, 2011, at 1:56 PM, evelyn sardina wrote:

                     
                    I was reffering to the ones used on the shower heads. We had one back in the day but they don't sell them any more. I have checked. Thanks for all the information. Seems price will be about 500 dollars for heater and 600 installation when it is all said and done. This information is very useful along with all other responses. Evelyn

                    --- On Thu, 10/13/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

                    From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:29 AM

                     
                    Forgot to answer your other question.
                    Installation costs vary from state to state and local expertise in installation tankless systems. The installation in CA where about $600-800 and only took a few hours. It does take a bit longer if a larger gas line needs to be run or if electric also needs to be brought closer to where the tankless will be installed. Our TX install pricing was all over the place from $400-800 and most plumbers had never installed one so I had to work with them to make sure they where done right and I negotiated the install cost. The water plumbing is straight forward however having the proper sized gas line is important as well as shut off valves. The exhaust is also important and will add to the cost a bit.
                    As far as the 110V under the counter on demand systems, I still see them for sale. Never heard of them being outlawed?? if they where, I would think garbage disposals would be outlawed as well.


                    Regards 
                    John P. Matznick 
                    Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                    Green Tech Fusion
                    www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                    On Oct 13, 2011, at 9:56 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:

                     
                    Thanks everyone this is great information.
                    I heard that the individual heaters are outlawed because they caused problems with electrocution when not properly installed. I would like more information so I will be contacting you offline. Do you know what the pay back of installing one would be after product purchase and installation. I know 2 days of plumbers will cost around 2,000, is that correct?

                    --- On Wed, 10/12/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

                    From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                    Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                    To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 5:57 PM

                     
                    We have installed gas tankless systems in our rental properties in CA and TX when replacing the original tank systems where needed or when they blew up.. no kidding. We lived over seas a number of years and got used to them and wanted to install them back in the States.
                    The ones in our properties are INSIDE because they are expensive for a whole house unit, one installation was about $2500 and others from $600-2K so we did not want the units outside in the elements. The gas lines and exhaust are typical and like what Gino said so I am not sure why some installers say you HAVE to put them on the outside. I have rehabbed a number of properties and have not run into any code enforcement regarding that.
                    We use Noritz units in CA.  One of them has been running for 7 years now in a 2 bed x 1 bath house and we have not had one single issue with it. The ones installed in TX properties are Noritz and Rheem. They all work pretty much the same and so far no problems. One issue that may come up from what some of my green colleagues in CA told me about  is possible mineral and other deposits build up in the tankless due to bad water. They said the fix is to put in a water softer or filtration system in front of the unit. Some of the real high end units have an electric system of some kind that cleans out these deposits if they build up.

                    The tankless systems will not get hot water to your faucet any faster. There is cold water between the unit and your faucet that has to empty first. I have tried a couple tricks to try and get hot water faster without wasting water but nothing really speeds it up.
                    I turn the hot water on for a second until the tankless click on. This heats the water in the coils first and then I turn the water on again a minute later. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't due to the flow control built in. If no water flows, the unit turns off.
                    You can always do what they in Europe and put a tankless at point of use like showers and kitchen (electric 220V run to them, scary in the shower!). In larger houses it makes sense to have one under your sink in the kitchen, those tend to be electric 110V.

                    I have also worked with Dan Philips in building custom recycled homes in Huntsville and he uses electric whole house units exclusively as to not complicate things by adding gas plumbing. They are 220V as well and heat up pretty good even though they are tiny. The houses are less that 1500-1900 sf however and electric cost more than gas to heat water. We did one build based on my recommendations where we added a home made solar thermal system and 20 gal tank on the second floor with a 12VDC recirculating pump. This was piped to the electric tankless downstairs which was installed closer to the electric panel.
                    With this setup, the tankless pretty much only came on late in the evening for showers when the temperature setting on it fell below the 113 deg mark. Water will flow through the tankless even though it does not come on if the water in the 20 gal tank is hot enough.

                    My next project is to install a propane tankless in my 5th Wheel RV. It uses a battery or 12VDC to light the burner. I sell a couple different models on my web site if someone wanted to try out an inexpensive tankess systems based on propane.

                    Sorry for the rambling, you can see I am a big proponent of tankless. 

                    Observations of tankless systems:
                    - Gas units are more efficient and less costly to run than electric. There are natural gas, propane and both 220V and 110V electric units. The 110 V units tend to be under sink type.
                    - There are indoor and outdoor specific models. If you want your indoors, you have the right as an owner to have an indoor model.
                    - Japanese and European models I believe are better since they have been proven in Europe and Asia far longer than the USA.
                    - Gas units do not need a pilot light on all the time to heat water. They do need electric to light the burner so 110V should be close by.
                    - Tankless systems do not save water unless it is part of a hybrid tank and solar thermal setup. I have come up with another way to beat this problem if anyone is interested offline.
                    - Tankless units drop your water pressure down a bit, not a lot but you can notice it. We use Oxygenics shower heads so we do not notice lack of water pressure all that much.
                    - They are great for property resale value. We get comments all the time from prospective buyers on properties with tankless in them. They like the safety aspects and saving energy.

                    Regards 
                    John P. Matznick 
                    Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                    Green Tech Fusion
                    www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                    On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Gino Griego wrote:

                     
                    I think it takes the same amount of time honestly. The energy savings comes in the form of no pilot running and no water to re-heat over and over. The cost up front is there, however the warranty I believe is 20 years for our tankless.

                    Thanks,

                    Gino

                    --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Barbara and Mike McGinity <mbmcginity@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Gino,
                    > We are looking at doing this and I have a question for you. We live in a 1954 ranch style house and with our current water heater, it takes about 2 minutes to get warm water to our bathroom farthest from the water heater. Do you find that the tankless gets hot water to you faster? I was wondering about the issue of putting in two.
                    >
                    > Thank you,
                    > Barbara McGinity
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Gino Griego" <infidel7913@...>
                    > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59:02 PM
                    > Subject: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I installed a Rinnia 94si last November due to the old water heater leaking and ruining our ceiling and hardwood floor. I relocated it to our garage and had to run a one inch gas line. The vent is pricey, however you can touch it. Total materials was just north of $2000 with new roof jack for exhaust. We have a 3 bed/2 bath house built in 1987. Considering our children will be teens in a few years we went with 94 series. It is advertised for 4 bathrooms. We absolutely love receiving gas bills that are a 1/3 of the old system. Be aware if you have to increase the size of you gas supply line to 1" you should get a plumber to do the work. I grew up on the back of a plumbing truck and was confident enough to do the work my self. I am not sure what labor would run you, I would assume a couple days labor certainly. Hope this helps.
                    >
                    > Gino
                    >
                    > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com , Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Greetings,
                    > > They are not supposed to be installed outside, but mine is. They are
                    > > expensive. They use a 5inch flue, not the standard 3 inch that a
                    > > regular hot water heater uses. Also, a solar back up unit is much
                    > > preferable, an ordinary unit takes the incoming water, raises it x
                    > > amount, and that is what you get. A real drag in the summer when the
                    > > incoming water can be warm. A solar unit raises it to a certain
                    > > temperature, regardless of the incoming temperature.
                    > >
                    > > For a family of five, you would need a whole house one, it will be very
                    > > expensive. Mine works fine, as I don't care if only one hot water tap,
                    > > whichever is closest to the heater, gets hot water at a time. There are
                    > > only two of us.
                    > >
                    > > Bright Blessings,
                    > > Garth & Kim Travis
                    > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                    > > Bedias, Texas
                    > > 936-395-0110
                    > >
                    > > On 10/12/2011 9:42 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:
                    > > > What is the cost of a gas tankless water heater, including installation?
                    > > > Is it less expensive than an electric tankless since you don't have to
                    > > > change your electric system to accomodate the electric load? The price I
                    > > > am looking for would be for a family of 5 (since it may vary according
                    > > > to use) and the ideal unit would be one that could be installed outdoors
                    > > > (not in the garage) to save room. Thank you, E.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > No virus found in this message.
                    > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com < http://www.avg.com >
                    > > > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4547 - Release Date: 10/11/11
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >





                  • Henry Haynes
                    Good question. I m at the office, so I don t have the files. We had enough power coming to the box, so the electrician (a friend) just had to install more
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 14, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Good question.  I'm at the office, so I don't have the files.  We had enough power coming to the box, so the electrician (a friend) just had to install more breakers & pull wire to the 3 locations.  I'm guessing what that cost probably offset what we saved by not having to vent for gas.  I guess, in that respect, the main advantage was being able hide them away in places where we really couldn't vent.

                      On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 10:48 AM, evelyn sardina <evelynsardina@...> wrote:
                       

                      What was the total cost of installation and product price back in the day? Did you have to install higher voltage lines on your house?

                      --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...> wrote:

                      From: Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...>

                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 7:08 AM


                       
                      I'm jumping in this conversation a little late & confess I haven't read all of the input, so I apologize if some of this has been said.  We replaced the conventional gas water heater in our little house with 3 tankless 220v units.  We considered both gas & electric tankless & went w/ electric.  We put a moderate sized unit in the master bath & another in the kitchen to service the kitchen & utility room.  We put a much smaller one in the powder room.  One of the main advantages of electric over gas (for us anyway) was that venting is not required, so they can be installed virtually anywhere.  The one in the kitchen is under the sink.  The one in the master bath is in the dirty clothes hamper.  (BTW, they're absolutely cool to the touch, so no heat worries.....also indicates efficiency, right?)  And, the small one is under the bathroom sink.  By going "point of use" you waste minimal energy & water waiting for warm up.  A secondary advantage of point of use.......We gained a "Costco pantry" where the old water heater closet was.  We've had them a couple of years (probably longer if I were to check the receipts), and we love them.

                      HHH

                      On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:44 PM, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:
                       
                      Ahh OK. To tell you the truth, I have not run into the shower on demand units here in the States. We did use them all over Europe in a lot of the older, larger homes.
                      I never liked the idea of having that much voltage while in the shower.

                      Regards 
                      John P. Matznick 
                      Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                      Green Tech Fusion
                      www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                      On Oct 13, 2011, at 1:56 PM, evelyn sardina wrote:

                       
                      I was reffering to the ones used on the shower heads. We had one back in the day but they don't sell them any more. I have checked. Thanks for all the information. Seems price will be about 500 dollars for heater and 600 installation when it is all said and done. This information is very useful along with all other responses. Evelyn

                      --- On Thu, 10/13/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

                      From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:29 AM

                       
                      Forgot to answer your other question.
                      Installation costs vary from state to state and local expertise in installation tankless systems. The installation in CA where about $600-800 and only took a few hours. It does take a bit longer if a larger gas line needs to be run or if electric also needs to be brought closer to where the tankless will be installed. Our TX install pricing was all over the place from $400-800 and most plumbers had never installed one so I had to work with them to make sure they where done right and I negotiated the install cost. The water plumbing is straight forward however having the proper sized gas line is important as well as shut off valves. The exhaust is also important and will add to the cost a bit.
                      As far as the 110V under the counter on demand systems, I still see them for sale. Never heard of them being outlawed?? if they where, I would think garbage disposals would be outlawed as well.


                      Regards 
                      John P. Matznick 
                      Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                      Green Tech Fusion
                      www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                      On Oct 13, 2011, at 9:56 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:

                       
                      Thanks everyone this is great information.
                      I heard that the individual heaters are outlawed because they caused problems with electrocution when not properly installed. I would like more information so I will be contacting you offline. Do you know what the pay back of installing one would be after product purchase and installation. I know 2 days of plumbers will cost around 2,000, is that correct?

                      --- On Wed, 10/12/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

                      From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                      Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 5:57 PM

                       
                      We have installed gas tankless systems in our rental properties in CA and TX when replacing the original tank systems where needed or when they blew up.. no kidding. We lived over seas a number of years and got used to them and wanted to install them back in the States.
                      The ones in our properties are INSIDE because they are expensive for a whole house unit, one installation was about $2500 and others from $600-2K so we did not want the units outside in the elements. The gas lines and exhaust are typical and like what Gino said so I am not sure why some installers say you HAVE to put them on the outside. I have rehabbed a number of properties and have not run into any code enforcement regarding that.
                      We use Noritz units in CA.  One of them has been running for 7 years now in a 2 bed x 1 bath house and we have not had one single issue with it. The ones installed in TX properties are Noritz and Rheem. They all work pretty much the same and so far no problems. One issue that may come up from what some of my green colleagues in CA told me about  is possible mineral and other deposits build up in the tankless due to bad water. They said the fix is to put in a water softer or filtration system in front of the unit. Some of the real high end units have an electric system of some kind that cleans out these deposits if they build up.

                      The tankless systems will not get hot water to your faucet any faster. There is cold water between the unit and your faucet that has to empty first. I have tried a couple tricks to try and get hot water faster without wasting water but nothing really speeds it up.
                      I turn the hot water on for a second until the tankless click on. This heats the water in the coils first and then I turn the water on again a minute later. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't due to the flow control built in. If no water flows, the unit turns off.
                      You can always do what they in Europe and put a tankless at point of use like showers and kitchen (electric 220V run to them, scary in the shower!). In larger houses it makes sense to have one under your sink in the kitchen, those tend to be electric 110V.

                      I have also worked with Dan Philips in building custom recycled homes in Huntsville and he uses electric whole house units exclusively as to not complicate things by adding gas plumbing. They are 220V as well and heat up pretty good even though they are tiny. The houses are less that 1500-1900 sf however and electric cost more than gas to heat water. We did one build based on my recommendations where we added a home made solar thermal system and 20 gal tank on the second floor with a 12VDC recirculating pump. This was piped to the electric tankless downstairs which was installed closer to the electric panel.
                      With this setup, the tankless pretty much only came on late in the evening for showers when the temperature setting on it fell below the 113 deg mark. Water will flow through the tankless even though it does not come on if the water in the 20 gal tank is hot enough.

                      My next project is to install a propane tankless in my 5th Wheel RV. It uses a battery or 12VDC to light the burner. I sell a couple different models on my web site if someone wanted to try out an inexpensive tankess systems based on propane.

                      Sorry for the rambling, you can see I am a big proponent of tankless. 

                      Observations of tankless systems:
                      - Gas units are more efficient and less costly to run than electric. There are natural gas, propane and both 220V and 110V electric units. The 110 V units tend to be under sink type.
                      - There are indoor and outdoor specific models. If you want your indoors, you have the right as an owner to have an indoor model.
                      - Japanese and European models I believe are better since they have been proven in Europe and Asia far longer than the USA.
                      - Gas units do not need a pilot light on all the time to heat water. They do need electric to light the burner so 110V should be close by.
                      - Tankless systems do not save water unless it is part of a hybrid tank and solar thermal setup. I have come up with another way to beat this problem if anyone is interested offline.
                      - Tankless units drop your water pressure down a bit, not a lot but you can notice it. We use Oxygenics shower heads so we do not notice lack of water pressure all that much.
                      - They are great for property resale value. We get comments all the time from prospective buyers on properties with tankless in them. They like the safety aspects and saving energy.

                      Regards 
                      John P. Matznick 
                      Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                      Green Tech Fusion
                      www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                      On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Gino Griego wrote:

                       
                      I think it takes the same amount of time honestly. The energy savings comes in the form of no pilot running and no water to re-heat over and over. The cost up front is there, however the warranty I believe is 20 years for our tankless.

                      Thanks,

                      Gino

                      --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Barbara and Mike McGinity <mbmcginity@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Gino,
                      > We are looking at doing this and I have a question for you. We live in a 1954 ranch style house and with our current water heater, it takes about 2 minutes to get warm water to our bathroom farthest from the water heater. Do you find that the tankless gets hot water to you faster? I was wondering about the issue of putting in two.
                      >
                      > Thank you,
                      > Barbara McGinity
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Gino Griego" <infidel7913@...>
                      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59:02 PM
                      > Subject: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I installed a Rinnia 94si last November due to the old water heater leaking and ruining our ceiling and hardwood floor. I relocated it to our garage and had to run a one inch gas line. The vent is pricey, however you can touch it. Total materials was just north of $2000 with new roof jack for exhaust. We have a 3 bed/2 bath house built in 1987. Considering our children will be teens in a few years we went with 94 series. It is advertised for 4 bathrooms. We absolutely love receiving gas bills that are a 1/3 of the old system. Be aware if you have to increase the size of you gas supply line to 1" you should get a plumber to do the work. I grew up on the back of a plumbing truck and was confident enough to do the work my self. I am not sure what labor would run you, I would assume a couple days labor certainly. Hope this helps.
                      >
                      > Gino
                      >
                      > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com , Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Greetings,
                      > > They are not supposed to be installed outside, but mine is. They are
                      > > expensive. They use a 5inch flue, not the standard 3 inch that a
                      > > regular hot water heater uses. Also, a solar back up unit is much
                      > > preferable, an ordinary unit takes the incoming water, raises it x
                      > > amount, and that is what you get. A real drag in the summer when the
                      > > incoming water can be warm. A solar unit raises it to a certain
                      > > temperature, regardless of the incoming temperature.
                      > >
                      > > For a family of five, you would need a whole house one, it will be very
                      > > expensive. Mine works fine, as I don't care if only one hot water tap,
                      > > whichever is closest to the heater, gets hot water at a time. There are
                      > > only two of us.
                      > >
                      > > Bright Blessings,
                      > > Garth & Kim Travis
                      > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                      > > Bedias, Texas
                      > > 936-395-0110
                      > >
                      > > On 10/12/2011 9:42 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:
                      > > > What is the cost of a gas tankless water heater, including installation?
                      > > > Is it less expensive than an electric tankless since you don't have to
                      > > > change your electric system to accomodate the electric load? The price I
                      > > > am looking for would be for a family of 5 (since it may vary according
                      > > > to use) and the ideal unit would be one that could be installed outdoors
                      > > > (not in the garage) to save room. Thank you, E.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > No virus found in this message.
                      > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com < http://www.avg.com >
                      > > > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4547 - Release Date: 10/11/11
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >






                    • evelyn sardina
                      Great Answer. Do you need both a person skilled in plumbing and electricity? ... From: Henry Haynes Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 14, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Great Answer. Do you need both a person skilled in plumbing and electricity?

                        --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...> wrote:

                        From: Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...>
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 11:24 AM

                         
                        Good question.  I'm at the office, so I don't have the files.  We had enough power coming to the box, so the electrician (a friend) just had to install more breakers & pull wire to the 3 locations.  I'm guessing what that cost probably offset what we saved by not having to vent for gas.  I guess, in that respect, the main advantage was being able hide them away in places where we really couldn't vent.

                        On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 10:48 AM, evelyn sardina <evelynsardina@...> wrote:
                         
                        What was the total cost of installation and product price back in the day? Did you have to install higher voltage lines on your house?

                        --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...> wrote:

                        From: Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...>

                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 7:08 AM


                         
                        I'm jumping in this conversation a little late & confess I haven't read all of the input, so I apologize if some of this has been said.  We replaced the conventional gas water heater in our little house with 3 tankless 220v units.  We considered both gas & electric tankless & went w/ electric.  We put a moderate sized unit in the master bath & another in the kitchen to service the kitchen & utility room.  We put a much smaller one in the powder room.  One of the main advantages of electric over gas (for us anyway) was that venting is not required, so they can be installed virtually anywhere.  The one in the kitchen is under the sink.  The one in the master bath is in the dirty clothes hamper.  (BTW, they're absolutely cool to the touch, so no heat worries.....also indicates efficiency, right?)  And, the small one is under the bathroom sink.  By going "point of use" you waste minimal energy & water waiting for warm up.  A secondary advantage of point of use.......We gained a "Costco pantry" where the old water heater closet was.  We've had them a couple of years (probably longer if I were to check the receipts), and we love them.

                        HHH

                        On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:44 PM, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:
                         
                        Ahh OK. To tell you the truth, I have not run into the shower on demand units here in the States. We did use them all over Europe in a lot of the older, larger homes.
                        I never liked the idea of having that much voltage while in the shower.

                        Regards 
                        John P. Matznick 
                        Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                        Green Tech Fusion
                        www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                        On Oct 13, 2011, at 1:56 PM, evelyn sardina wrote:

                         
                        I was reffering to the ones used on the shower heads. We had one back in the day but they don't sell them any more. I have checked. Thanks for all the information. Seems price will be about 500 dollars for heater and 600 installation when it is all said and done. This information is very useful along with all other responses. Evelyn

                        --- On Thu, 10/13/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

                        From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:29 AM

                         
                        Forgot to answer your other question.
                        Installation costs vary from state to state and local expertise in installation tankless systems. The installation in CA where about $600-800 and only took a few hours. It does take a bit longer if a larger gas line needs to be run or if electric also needs to be brought closer to where the tankless will be installed. Our TX install pricing was all over the place from $400-800 and most plumbers had never installed one so I had to work with them to make sure they where done right and I negotiated the install cost. The water plumbing is straight forward however having the proper sized gas line is important as well as shut off valves. The exhaust is also important and will add to the cost a bit.
                        As far as the 110V under the counter on demand systems, I still see them for sale. Never heard of them being outlawed?? if they where, I would think garbage disposals would be outlawed as well.


                        Regards 
                        John P. Matznick 
                        Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                        Green Tech Fusion
                        www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                        On Oct 13, 2011, at 9:56 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:

                         
                        Thanks everyone this is great information.
                        I heard that the individual heaters are outlawed because they caused problems with electrocution when not properly installed. I would like more information so I will be contacting you offline. Do you know what the pay back of installing one would be after product purchase and installation. I know 2 days of plumbers will cost around 2,000, is that correct?

                        --- On Wed, 10/12/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

                        From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                        Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 5:57 PM

                         
                        We have installed gas tankless systems in our rental properties in CA and TX when replacing the original tank systems where needed or when they blew up.. no kidding. We lived over seas a number of years and got used to them and wanted to install them back in the States.
                        The ones in our properties are INSIDE because they are expensive for a whole house unit, one installation was about $2500 and others from $600-2K so we did not want the units outside in the elements. The gas lines and exhaust are typical and like what Gino said so I am not sure why some installers say you HAVE to put them on the outside. I have rehabbed a number of properties and have not run into any code enforcement regarding that.
                        We use Noritz units in CA.  One of them has been running for 7 years now in a 2 bed x 1 bath house and we have not had one single issue with it. The ones installed in TX properties are Noritz and Rheem. They all work pretty much the same and so far no problems. One issue that may come up from what some of my green colleagues in CA told me about  is possible mineral and other deposits build up in the tankless due to bad water. They said the fix is to put in a water softer or filtration system in front of the unit. Some of the real high end units have an electric system of some kind that cleans out these deposits if they build up.

                        The tankless systems will not get hot water to your faucet any faster. There is cold water between the unit and your faucet that has to empty first. I have tried a couple tricks to try and get hot water faster without wasting water but nothing really speeds it up.
                        I turn the hot water on for a second until the tankless click on. This heats the water in the coils first and then I turn the water on again a minute later. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't due to the flow control built in. If no water flows, the unit turns off.
                        You can always do what they in Europe and put a tankless at point of use like showers and kitchen (electric 220V run to them, scary in the shower!). In larger houses it makes sense to have one under your sink in the kitchen, those tend to be electric 110V.

                        I have also worked with Dan Philips in building custom recycled homes in Huntsville and he uses electric whole house units exclusively as to not complicate things by adding gas plumbing. They are 220V as well and heat up pretty good even though they are tiny. The houses are less that 1500-1900 sf however and electric cost more than gas to heat water. We did one build based on my recommendations where we added a home made solar thermal system and 20 gal tank on the second floor with a 12VDC recirculating pump. This was piped to the electric tankless downstairs which was installed closer to the electric panel.
                        With this setup, the tankless pretty much only came on late in the evening for showers when the temperature setting on it fell below the 113 deg mark. Water will flow through the tankless even though it does not come on if the water in the 20 gal tank is hot enough.

                        My next project is to install a propane tankless in my 5th Wheel RV. It uses a battery or 12VDC to light the burner. I sell a couple different models on my web site if someone wanted to try out an inexpensive tankess systems based on propane.

                        Sorry for the rambling, you can see I am a big proponent of tankless. 

                        Observations of tankless systems:
                        - Gas units are more efficient and less costly to run than electric. There are natural gas, propane and both 220V and 110V electric units. The 110 V units tend to be under sink type.
                        - There are indoor and outdoor specific models. If you want your indoors, you have the right as an owner to have an indoor model.
                        - Japanese and European models I believe are better since they have been proven in Europe and Asia far longer than the USA.
                        - Gas units do not need a pilot light on all the time to heat water. They do need electric to light the burner so 110V should be close by.
                        - Tankless systems do not save water unless it is part of a hybrid tank and solar thermal setup. I have come up with another way to beat this problem if anyone is interested offline.
                        - Tankless units drop your water pressure down a bit, not a lot but you can notice it. We use Oxygenics shower heads so we do not notice lack of water pressure all that much.
                        - They are great for property resale value. We get comments all the time from prospective buyers on properties with tankless in them. They like the safety aspects and saving energy.

                        Regards 
                        John P. Matznick 
                        Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                        Green Tech Fusion
                        www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                        On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Gino Griego wrote:

                         
                        I think it takes the same amount of time honestly. The energy savings comes in the form of no pilot running and no water to re-heat over and over. The cost up front is there, however the warranty I believe is 20 years for our tankless.

                        Thanks,

                        Gino

                        --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Barbara and Mike McGinity <mbmcginity@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Gino,
                        > We are looking at doing this and I have a question for you. We live in a 1954 ranch style house and with our current water heater, it takes about 2 minutes to get warm water to our bathroom farthest from the water heater. Do you find that the tankless gets hot water to you faster? I was wondering about the issue of putting in two.
                        >
                        > Thank you,
                        > Barbara McGinity
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Gino Griego" <infidel7913@...>
                        > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59:02 PM
                        > Subject: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I installed a Rinnia 94si last November due to the old water heater leaking and ruining our ceiling and hardwood floor. I relocated it to our garage and had to run a one inch gas line. The vent is pricey, however you can touch it. Total materials was just north of $2000 with new roof jack for exhaust. We have a 3 bed/2 bath house built in 1987. Considering our children will be teens in a few years we went with 94 series. It is advertised for 4 bathrooms. We absolutely love receiving gas bills that are a 1/3 of the old system. Be aware if you have to increase the size of you gas supply line to 1" you should get a plumber to do the work. I grew up on the back of a plumbing truck and was confident enough to do the work my self. I am not sure what labor would run you, I would assume a couple days labor certainly. Hope this helps.
                        >
                        > Gino
                        >
                        > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com , Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Greetings,
                        > > They are not supposed to be installed outside, but mine is. They are
                        > > expensive. They use a 5inch flue, not the standard 3 inch that a
                        > > regular hot water heater uses. Also, a solar back up unit is much
                        > > preferable, an ordinary unit takes the incoming water, raises it x
                        > > amount, and that is what you get. A real drag in the summer when the
                        > > incoming water can be warm. A solar unit raises it to a certain
                        > > temperature, regardless of the incoming temperature.
                        > >
                        > > For a family of five, you would need a whole house one, it will be very
                        > > expensive. Mine works fine, as I don't care if only one hot water tap,
                        > > whichever is closest to the heater, gets hot water at a time. There are
                        > > only two of us.
                        > >
                        > > Bright Blessings,
                        > > Garth & Kim Travis
                        > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                        > > Bedias, Texas
                        > > 936-395-0110
                        > >
                        > > On 10/12/2011 9:42 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:
                        > > > What is the cost of a gas tankless water heater, including installation?
                        > > > Is it less expensive than an electric tankless since you don't have to
                        > > > change your electric system to accomodate the electric load? The price I
                        > > > am looking for would be for a family of 5 (since it may vary according
                        > > > to use) and the ideal unit would be one that could be installed outdoors
                        > > > (not in the garage) to save room. Thank you, E.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > No virus found in this message.
                        > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com < http://www.avg.com >
                        > > > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4547 - Release Date: 10/11/11
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >






                      • Henry Haynes
                        yes.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 14, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          yes.

                          On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:18 PM, evelyn sardina <evelynsardina@...> wrote:
                           

                          Great Answer. Do you need both a person skilled in plumbing and electricity?

                          --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...> wrote:

                          From: Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...>
                          Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 11:24 AM


                           
                          Good question.  I'm at the office, so I don't have the files.  We had enough power coming to the box, so the electrician (a friend) just had to install more breakers & pull wire to the 3 locations.  I'm guessing what that cost probably offset what we saved by not having to vent for gas.  I guess, in that respect, the main advantage was being able hide them away in places where we really couldn't vent.

                          On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 10:48 AM, evelyn sardina <evelynsardina@...> wrote:
                           
                          What was the total cost of installation and product price back in the day? Did you have to install higher voltage lines on your house?

                          --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...> wrote:

                          From: Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...>

                          Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 7:08 AM


                           
                          I'm jumping in this conversation a little late & confess I haven't read all of the input, so I apologize if some of this has been said.  We replaced the conventional gas water heater in our little house with 3 tankless 220v units.  We considered both gas & electric tankless & went w/ electric.  We put a moderate sized unit in the master bath & another in the kitchen to service the kitchen & utility room.  We put a much smaller one in the powder room.  One of the main advantages of electric over gas (for us anyway) was that venting is not required, so they can be installed virtually anywhere.  The one in the kitchen is under the sink.  The one in the master bath is in the dirty clothes hamper.  (BTW, they're absolutely cool to the touch, so no heat worries.....also indicates efficiency, right?)  And, the small one is under the bathroom sink.  By going "point of use" you waste minimal energy & water waiting for warm up.  A secondary advantage of point of use.......We gained a "Costco pantry" where the old water heater closet was.  We've had them a couple of years (probably longer if I were to check the receipts), and we love them.

                          HHH

                          On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:44 PM, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:
                           
                          Ahh OK. To tell you the truth, I have not run into the shower on demand units here in the States. We did use them all over Europe in a lot of the older, larger homes.
                          I never liked the idea of having that much voltage while in the shower.

                          Regards 
                          John P. Matznick 
                          Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                          Green Tech Fusion
                          www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                          On Oct 13, 2011, at 1:56 PM, evelyn sardina wrote:

                           
                          I was reffering to the ones used on the shower heads. We had one back in the day but they don't sell them any more. I have checked. Thanks for all the information. Seems price will be about 500 dollars for heater and 600 installation when it is all said and done. This information is very useful along with all other responses. Evelyn

                          --- On Thu, 10/13/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

                          From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                          Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:29 AM

                           
                          Forgot to answer your other question.
                          Installation costs vary from state to state and local expertise in installation tankless systems. The installation in CA where about $600-800 and only took a few hours. It does take a bit longer if a larger gas line needs to be run or if electric also needs to be brought closer to where the tankless will be installed. Our TX install pricing was all over the place from $400-800 and most plumbers had never installed one so I had to work with them to make sure they where done right and I negotiated the install cost. The water plumbing is straight forward however having the proper sized gas line is important as well as shut off valves. The exhaust is also important and will add to the cost a bit.
                          As far as the 110V under the counter on demand systems, I still see them for sale. Never heard of them being outlawed?? if they where, I would think garbage disposals would be outlawed as well.


                          Regards 
                          John P. Matznick 
                          Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                          Green Tech Fusion
                          www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                          On Oct 13, 2011, at 9:56 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:

                           
                          Thanks everyone this is great information.
                          I heard that the individual heaters are outlawed because they caused problems with electrocution when not properly installed. I would like more information so I will be contacting you offline. Do you know what the pay back of installing one would be after product purchase and installation. I know 2 days of plumbers will cost around 2,000, is that correct?

                          --- On Wed, 10/12/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

                          From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                          Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 5:57 PM

                           
                          We have installed gas tankless systems in our rental properties in CA and TX when replacing the original tank systems where needed or when they blew up.. no kidding. We lived over seas a number of years and got used to them and wanted to install them back in the States.
                          The ones in our properties are INSIDE because they are expensive for a whole house unit, one installation was about $2500 and others from $600-2K so we did not want the units outside in the elements. The gas lines and exhaust are typical and like what Gino said so I am not sure why some installers say you HAVE to put them on the outside. I have rehabbed a number of properties and have not run into any code enforcement regarding that.
                          We use Noritz units in CA.  One of them has been running for 7 years now in a 2 bed x 1 bath house and we have not had one single issue with it. The ones installed in TX properties are Noritz and Rheem. They all work pretty much the same and so far no problems. One issue that may come up from what some of my green colleagues in CA told me about  is possible mineral and other deposits build up in the tankless due to bad water. They said the fix is to put in a water softer or filtration system in front of the unit. Some of the real high end units have an electric system of some kind that cleans out these deposits if they build up.

                          The tankless systems will not get hot water to your faucet any faster. There is cold water between the unit and your faucet that has to empty first. I have tried a couple tricks to try and get hot water faster without wasting water but nothing really speeds it up.
                          I turn the hot water on for a second until the tankless click on. This heats the water in the coils first and then I turn the water on again a minute later. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't due to the flow control built in. If no water flows, the unit turns off.
                          You can always do what they in Europe and put a tankless at point of use like showers and kitchen (electric 220V run to them, scary in the shower!). In larger houses it makes sense to have one under your sink in the kitchen, those tend to be electric 110V.

                          I have also worked with Dan Philips in building custom recycled homes in Huntsville and he uses electric whole house units exclusively as to not complicate things by adding gas plumbing. They are 220V as well and heat up pretty good even though they are tiny. The houses are less that 1500-1900 sf however and electric cost more than gas to heat water. We did one build based on my recommendations where we added a home made solar thermal system and 20 gal tank on the second floor with a 12VDC recirculating pump. This was piped to the electric tankless downstairs which was installed closer to the electric panel.
                          With this setup, the tankless pretty much only came on late in the evening for showers when the temperature setting on it fell below the 113 deg mark. Water will flow through the tankless even though it does not come on if the water in the 20 gal tank is hot enough.

                          My next project is to install a propane tankless in my 5th Wheel RV. It uses a battery or 12VDC to light the burner. I sell a couple different models on my web site if someone wanted to try out an inexpensive tankess systems based on propane.

                          Sorry for the rambling, you can see I am a big proponent of tankless. 

                          Observations of tankless systems:
                          - Gas units are more efficient and less costly to run than electric. There are natural gas, propane and both 220V and 110V electric units. The 110 V units tend to be under sink type.
                          - There are indoor and outdoor specific models. If you want your indoors, you have the right as an owner to have an indoor model.
                          - Japanese and European models I believe are better since they have been proven in Europe and Asia far longer than the USA.
                          - Gas units do not need a pilot light on all the time to heat water. They do need electric to light the burner so 110V should be close by.
                          - Tankless systems do not save water unless it is part of a hybrid tank and solar thermal setup. I have come up with another way to beat this problem if anyone is interested offline.
                          - Tankless units drop your water pressure down a bit, not a lot but you can notice it. We use Oxygenics shower heads so we do not notice lack of water pressure all that much.
                          - They are great for property resale value. We get comments all the time from prospective buyers on properties with tankless in them. They like the safety aspects and saving energy.

                          Regards 
                          John P. Matznick 
                          Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                          Green Tech Fusion
                          www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                          On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Gino Griego wrote:

                           
                          I think it takes the same amount of time honestly. The energy savings comes in the form of no pilot running and no water to re-heat over and over. The cost up front is there, however the warranty I believe is 20 years for our tankless.

                          Thanks,

                          Gino

                          --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Barbara and Mike McGinity <mbmcginity@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Gino,
                          > We are looking at doing this and I have a question for you. We live in a 1954 ranch style house and with our current water heater, it takes about 2 minutes to get warm water to our bathroom farthest from the water heater. Do you find that the tankless gets hot water to you faster? I was wondering about the issue of putting in two.
                          >
                          > Thank you,
                          > Barbara McGinity
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Gino Griego" <infidel7913@...>
                          > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59:02 PM
                          > Subject: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I installed a Rinnia 94si last November due to the old water heater leaking and ruining our ceiling and hardwood floor. I relocated it to our garage and had to run a one inch gas line. The vent is pricey, however you can touch it. Total materials was just north of $2000 with new roof jack for exhaust. We have a 3 bed/2 bath house built in 1987. Considering our children will be teens in a few years we went with 94 series. It is advertised for 4 bathrooms. We absolutely love receiving gas bills that are a 1/3 of the old system. Be aware if you have to increase the size of you gas supply line to 1" you should get a plumber to do the work. I grew up on the back of a plumbing truck and was confident enough to do the work my self. I am not sure what labor would run you, I would assume a couple days labor certainly. Hope this helps.
                          >
                          > Gino
                          >
                          > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com , Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Greetings,
                          > > They are not supposed to be installed outside, but mine is. They are
                          > > expensive. They use a 5inch flue, not the standard 3 inch that a
                          > > regular hot water heater uses. Also, a solar back up unit is much
                          > > preferable, an ordinary unit takes the incoming water, raises it x
                          > > amount, and that is what you get. A real drag in the summer when the
                          > > incoming water can be warm. A solar unit raises it to a certain
                          > > temperature, regardless of the incoming temperature.
                          > >
                          > > For a family of five, you would need a whole house one, it will be very
                          > > expensive. Mine works fine, as I don't care if only one hot water tap,
                          > > whichever is closest to the heater, gets hot water at a time. There are
                          > > only two of us.
                          > >
                          > > Bright Blessings,
                          > > Garth & Kim Travis
                          > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                          > > Bedias, Texas
                          > > 936-395-0110
                          > >
                          > > On 10/12/2011 9:42 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:
                          > > > What is the cost of a gas tankless water heater, including installation?
                          > > > Is it less expensive than an electric tankless since you don't have to
                          > > > change your electric system to accomodate the electric load? The price I
                          > > > am looking for would be for a family of 5 (since it may vary according
                          > > > to use) and the ideal unit would be one that could be installed outdoors
                          > > > (not in the garage) to save room. Thank you, E.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > No virus found in this message.
                          > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com < http://www.avg.com >
                          > > > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4547 - Release Date: 10/11/11
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >







                        • evelyn sardina
                          Thanks for all the answers. Evelyn ... From: Henry Haynes Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 16, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks for all the answers. Evelyn

                            --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...> wrote:

                            From: Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...>
                            Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 2:54 PM

                             
                            yes.

                            On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:18 PM, evelyn sardina <evelynsardina@...> wrote:
                             
                            Great Answer. Do you need both a person skilled in plumbing and electricity?

                            --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...> wrote:

                            From: Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...>
                            Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 11:24 AM


                             
                            Good question.  I'm at the office, so I don't have the files.  We had enough power coming to the box, so the electrician (a friend) just had to install more breakers & pull wire to the 3 locations.  I'm guessing what that cost probably offset what we saved by not having to vent for gas.  I guess, in that respect, the main advantage was being able hide them away in places where we really couldn't vent.

                            On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 10:48 AM, evelyn sardina <evelynsardina@...> wrote:
                             
                            What was the total cost of installation and product price back in the day? Did you have to install higher voltage lines on your house?

                            --- On Fri, 10/14/11, Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...> wrote:

                            From: Henry Haynes <henry.haynes@...>

                            Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 7:08 AM


                             
                            I'm jumping in this conversation a little late & confess I haven't read all of the input, so I apologize if some of this has been said.  We replaced the conventional gas water heater in our little house with 3 tankless 220v units.  We considered both gas & electric tankless & went w/ electric.  We put a moderate sized unit in the master bath & another in the kitchen to service the kitchen & utility room.  We put a much smaller one in the powder room.  One of the main advantages of electric over gas (for us anyway) was that venting is not required, so they can be installed virtually anywhere.  The one in the kitchen is under the sink.  The one in the master bath is in the dirty clothes hamper.  (BTW, they're absolutely cool to the touch, so no heat worries.....also indicates efficiency, right?)  And, the small one is under the bathroom sink.  By going "point of use" you waste minimal energy & water waiting for warm up.  A secondary advantage of point of use.......We gained a "Costco pantry" where the old water heater closet was.  We've had them a couple of years (probably longer if I were to check the receipts), and we love them.

                            HHH

                            On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:44 PM, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:
                             
                            Ahh OK. To tell you the truth, I have not run into the shower on demand units here in the States. We did use them all over Europe in a lot of the older, larger homes.
                            I never liked the idea of having that much voltage while in the shower.

                            Regards 
                            John P. Matznick 
                            Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                            Green Tech Fusion
                            www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                            On Oct 13, 2011, at 1:56 PM, evelyn sardina wrote:

                             
                            I was reffering to the ones used on the shower heads. We had one back in the day but they don't sell them any more. I have checked. Thanks for all the information. Seems price will be about 500 dollars for heater and 600 installation when it is all said and done. This information is very useful along with all other responses. Evelyn

                            --- On Thu, 10/13/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

                            From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                            Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:29 AM

                             
                            Forgot to answer your other question.
                            Installation costs vary from state to state and local expertise in installation tankless systems. The installation in CA where about $600-800 and only took a few hours. It does take a bit longer if a larger gas line needs to be run or if electric also needs to be brought closer to where the tankless will be installed. Our TX install pricing was all over the place from $400-800 and most plumbers had never installed one so I had to work with them to make sure they where done right and I negotiated the install cost. The water plumbing is straight forward however having the proper sized gas line is important as well as shut off valves. The exhaust is also important and will add to the cost a bit.
                            As far as the 110V under the counter on demand systems, I still see them for sale. Never heard of them being outlawed?? if they where, I would think garbage disposals would be outlawed as well.


                            Regards 
                            John P. Matznick 
                            Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                            Green Tech Fusion
                            www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                            On Oct 13, 2011, at 9:56 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:

                             
                            Thanks everyone this is great information.
                            I heard that the individual heaters are outlawed because they caused problems with electrocution when not properly installed. I would like more information so I will be contacting you offline. Do you know what the pay back of installing one would be after product purchase and installation. I know 2 days of plumbers will cost around 2,000, is that correct?

                            --- On Wed, 10/12/11, John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...> wrote:

                            From: John P. Matznick <jpmatznick@...>
                            Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 5:57 PM

                             
                            We have installed gas tankless systems in our rental properties in CA and TX when replacing the original tank systems where needed or when they blew up.. no kidding. We lived over seas a number of years and got used to them and wanted to install them back in the States.
                            The ones in our properties are INSIDE because they are expensive for a whole house unit, one installation was about $2500 and others from $600-2K so we did not want the units outside in the elements. The gas lines and exhaust are typical and like what Gino said so I am not sure why some installers say you HAVE to put them on the outside. I have rehabbed a number of properties and have not run into any code enforcement regarding that.
                            We use Noritz units in CA.  One of them has been running for 7 years now in a 2 bed x 1 bath house and we have not had one single issue with it. The ones installed in TX properties are Noritz and Rheem. They all work pretty much the same and so far no problems. One issue that may come up from what some of my green colleagues in CA told me about  is possible mineral and other deposits build up in the tankless due to bad water. They said the fix is to put in a water softer or filtration system in front of the unit. Some of the real high end units have an electric system of some kind that cleans out these deposits if they build up.

                            The tankless systems will not get hot water to your faucet any faster. There is cold water between the unit and your faucet that has to empty first. I have tried a couple tricks to try and get hot water faster without wasting water but nothing really speeds it up.
                            I turn the hot water on for a second until the tankless click on. This heats the water in the coils first and then I turn the water on again a minute later. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't due to the flow control built in. If no water flows, the unit turns off.
                            You can always do what they in Europe and put a tankless at point of use like showers and kitchen (electric 220V run to them, scary in the shower!). In larger houses it makes sense to have one under your sink in the kitchen, those tend to be electric 110V.

                            I have also worked with Dan Philips in building custom recycled homes in Huntsville and he uses electric whole house units exclusively as to not complicate things by adding gas plumbing. They are 220V as well and heat up pretty good even though they are tiny. The houses are less that 1500-1900 sf however and electric cost more than gas to heat water. We did one build based on my recommendations where we added a home made solar thermal system and 20 gal tank on the second floor with a 12VDC recirculating pump. This was piped to the electric tankless downstairs which was installed closer to the electric panel.
                            With this setup, the tankless pretty much only came on late in the evening for showers when the temperature setting on it fell below the 113 deg mark. Water will flow through the tankless even though it does not come on if the water in the 20 gal tank is hot enough.

                            My next project is to install a propane tankless in my 5th Wheel RV. It uses a battery or 12VDC to light the burner. I sell a couple different models on my web site if someone wanted to try out an inexpensive tankess systems based on propane.

                            Sorry for the rambling, you can see I am a big proponent of tankless. 

                            Observations of tankless systems:
                            - Gas units are more efficient and less costly to run than electric. There are natural gas, propane and both 220V and 110V electric units. The 110 V units tend to be under sink type.
                            - There are indoor and outdoor specific models. If you want your indoors, you have the right as an owner to have an indoor model.
                            - Japanese and European models I believe are better since they have been proven in Europe and Asia far longer than the USA.
                            - Gas units do not need a pilot light on all the time to heat water. They do need electric to light the burner so 110V should be close by.
                            - Tankless systems do not save water unless it is part of a hybrid tank and solar thermal setup. I have come up with another way to beat this problem if anyone is interested offline.
                            - Tankless units drop your water pressure down a bit, not a lot but you can notice it. We use Oxygenics shower heads so we do not notice lack of water pressure all that much.
                            - They are great for property resale value. We get comments all the time from prospective buyers on properties with tankless in them. They like the safety aspects and saving energy.

                            Regards 
                            John P. Matznick 
                            Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
                            Green Tech Fusion
                            www.GreenTechFusion.com -  Sustainable & Renewable Technologies



                            On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Gino Griego wrote:

                             
                            I think it takes the same amount of time honestly. The energy savings comes in the form of no pilot running and no water to re-heat over and over. The cost up front is there, however the warranty I believe is 20 years for our tankless.

                            Thanks,

                            Gino

                            --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Barbara and Mike McGinity <mbmcginity@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Gino,
                            > We are looking at doing this and I have a question for you. We live in a 1954 ranch style house and with our current water heater, it takes about 2 minutes to get warm water to our bathroom farthest from the water heater. Do you find that the tankless gets hot water to you faster? I was wondering about the issue of putting in two.
                            >
                            > Thank you,
                            > Barbara McGinity
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Gino Griego" <infidel7913@...>
                            > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59:02 PM
                            > Subject: [hreg] Re: tankless gas water heater
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I installed a Rinnia 94si last November due to the old water heater leaking and ruining our ceiling and hardwood floor. I relocated it to our garage and had to run a one inch gas line. The vent is pricey, however you can touch it. Total materials was just north of $2000 with new roof jack for exhaust. We have a 3 bed/2 bath house built in 1987. Considering our children will be teens in a few years we went with 94 series. It is advertised for 4 bathrooms. We absolutely love receiving gas bills that are a 1/3 of the old system. Be aware if you have to increase the size of you gas supply line to 1" you should get a plumber to do the work. I grew up on the back of a plumbing truck and was confident enough to do the work my self. I am not sure what labor would run you, I would assume a couple days labor certainly. Hope this helps.
                            >
                            > Gino
                            >
                            > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com , Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Greetings,
                            > > They are not supposed to be installed outside, but mine is. They are
                            > > expensive. They use a 5inch flue, not the standard 3 inch that a
                            > > regular hot water heater uses. Also, a solar back up unit is much
                            > > preferable, an ordinary unit takes the incoming water, raises it x
                            > > amount, and that is what you get. A real drag in the summer when the
                            > > incoming water can be warm. A solar unit raises it to a certain
                            > > temperature, regardless of the incoming temperature.
                            > >
                            > > For a family of five, you would need a whole house one, it will be very
                            > > expensive. Mine works fine, as I don't care if only one hot water tap,
                            > > whichever is closest to the heater, gets hot water at a time. There are
                            > > only two of us.
                            > >
                            > > Bright Blessings,
                            > > Garth & Kim Travis
                            > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                            > > Bedias, Texas
                            > > 936-395-0110
                            > >
                            > > On 10/12/2011 9:42 AM, evelyn sardina wrote:
                            > > > What is the cost of a gas tankless water heater, including installation?
                            > > > Is it less expensive than an electric tankless since you don't have to
                            > > > change your electric system to accomodate the electric load? The price I
                            > > > am looking for would be for a family of 5 (since it may vary according
                            > > > to use) and the ideal unit would be one that could be installed outdoors
                            > > > (not in the garage) to save room. Thank you, E.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > No virus found in this message.
                            > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com < http://www.avg.com >
                            > > > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4547 - Release Date: 10/11/11
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >







                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.