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money and mileage

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  • Garth & Kim Travis
    Greetings, I am looking at what it really costs to have a more fuel efficient vehicle. Here is what I have figured out so far. If I pay an extra $10,000 for a
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 13, 2011
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      Greetings,

      I am looking at what it really costs to have a more fuel efficient
      vehicle. Here is what I have figured out so far.

      If I pay an extra $10,000 for a hybrid that gets 3mpg more on the
      highway, I figure it will take me 66,000 miles to break even with gas
      priced at $3.50 per gallon. I drive 90% highway, so that is the mileage
      figure most important to me.

      I figured this by looking at the number of gallons of fuel it takes to
      drive 10,000 miles. At 25mpg, that number is 400, but at 28 it is
      357.14, so I save 43 gallons. At $3.50 per gallon that is a savings of
      $150.50 per 10,000 miles. So it takes about 66,000 miles to break even.

      Considering I keep my vehicles until I wear them out, I do believe that
      paying for a hybrid will be well worth it. Considering that gas prices
      will be even higher in the future, I do believe I am being conservative
      in my comparisons. Any comments?

      Right now the Toyota Highlander Hybrid is looking good. It can tow 3500
      lbs and hauls a lot of stuff inside. It would be nicer to drive than a
      truck, and it's mileage is much higher than any truck I have looked at.
      --
      Bright Blessings,
      Garth & Kim Travis
      www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
      Bedias, Texas
      936-395-0110
    • Gavvala, Srini
      Your numbers don t look right. I think it should be 660,000 miles.... Srini Gavvala From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 13, 2011
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        Your numbers don’t look right.  I think it should be 660,000 miles….

         

        Srini Gavvala

         

        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth & Kim Travis
        Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 7:18 AM
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [hreg] money and mileage

         

         

        Greetings,

        I am looking at what it really costs to have a more fuel efficient
        vehicle. Here is what I have figured out so far.

        If I pay an extra $10,000 for a hybrid that gets 3mpg more on the
        highway, I figure it will take me 66,000 miles to break even with gas
        priced at $3.50 per gallon. I drive 90% highway, so that is the mileage
        figure most important to me.

        I figured this by looking at the number of gallons of fuel it takes to
        drive 10,000 miles. At 25mpg, that number is 400, but at 28 it is
        357.14, so I save 43 gallons. At $3.50 per gallon that is a savings of
        $150.50 per 10,000 miles. So it takes about 66,000 miles to break even.

        Considering I keep my vehicles until I wear them out, I do believe that
        paying for a hybrid will be well worth it. Considering that gas prices
        will be even higher in the future, I do believe I am being conservative
        in my comparisons. Any comments?

        Right now the Toyota Highlander Hybrid is looking good. It can tow 3500
        lbs and hauls a lot of stuff inside. It would be nicer to drive than a
        truck, and it's mileage is much higher than any truck I have looked at.
        --
        Bright Blessings,
        Garth & Kim Travis
        www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
        Bedias , Texas
        936-395-0110

      • Garth & Kim Travis
        Greetings, You are right, oops. I thought it looked too good to be true. Bright Blessings, Garth & Kim Travis www.TheRoseColoredForest.com Bedias, Texas
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 13, 2011
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          Greetings,
          You are right, oops. I thought it looked too good to be true.

          Bright Blessings,
          Garth & Kim Travis
          www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
          Bedias, Texas
          936-395-0110

          On 10/13/2011 7:28 AM, Gavvala, Srini wrote:
          > Your numbers don’t look right. I think it should be 660,000 miles….
          >
          > *Srini Gavvala*
          >
          > *From:*hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
          > *Garth & Kim Travis
          > *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2011 7:18 AM
          > *To:* hreg@yahoogroups.com
          > *Subject:* [hreg] money and mileage
          >
          > Greetings,
          >
          > I am looking at what it really costs to have a more fuel efficient
          > vehicle. Here is what I have figured out so far.
          >
          > If I pay an extra $10,000 for a hybrid that gets 3mpg more on the
          > highway, I figure it will take me 66,000 miles to break even with gas
          > priced at $3.50 per gallon. I drive 90% highway, so that is the mileage
          > figure most important to me.
          >
          > I figured this by looking at the number of gallons of fuel it takes to
          > drive 10,000 miles. At 25mpg, that number is 400, but at 28 it is
          > 357.14, so I save 43 gallons. At $3.50 per gallon that is a savings of
          > $150.50 per 10,000 miles. So it takes about 66,000 miles to break even.
          >
          > Considering I keep my vehicles until I wear them out, I do believe that
          > paying for a hybrid will be well worth it. Considering that gas prices
          > will be even higher in the future, I do believe I am being conservative
          > in my comparisons. Any comments?
          >
          > Right now the Toyota Highlander Hybrid is looking good. It can tow 3500
          > lbs and hauls a lot of stuff inside. It would be nicer to drive than a
          > truck, and it's mileage is much higher than any truck I have looked at.
          > --
          > Bright Blessings,
          > Garth & Kim Travis
          > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
          > Bedias, Texas
          > 936-395-0110
          >
          >
        • Mike and Barbara McGinity
          I am not a math or numbers person and I am not familiar with the Toyota Highlander, but I have a Fusion Hybrid and prior to that I had a Volvo convertible. My
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 13, 2011
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            I am not a math or numbers person and I am not familiar with the Toyota Highlander, but I have a Fusion Hybrid and prior to that I had a Volvo convertible.  My Volvo was an older model, and I got about 23 miles on the highway.  I get 36 to 37 with my Fusion.  The Hybrid actually gets better mileage with stop and go in the city than the highway.  It is at 37.2 right now, but if I drive to Dallas it will go down to about 36.7.

            Don't know if this helps you make your decision, but I can say I am very happy with my choice.

            Barbara McGinity

            On 10/13/2011 7:18 AM, Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
             

            Greetings,

            I am looking at what it really costs to have a more fuel efficient
            vehicle. Here is what I have figured out so far.

            If I pay an extra $10,000 for a hybrid that gets 3mpg more on the
            highway, I figure it will take me 66,000 miles to break even with gas
            priced at $3.50 per gallon. I drive 90% highway, so that is the mileage
            figure most important to me.

            I figured this by looking at the number of gallons of fuel it takes to
            drive 10,000 miles. At 25mpg, that number is 400, but at 28 it is
            357.14, so I save 43 gallons. At $3.50 per gallon that is a savings of
            $150.50 per 10,000 miles. So it takes about 66,000 miles to break even.

            Considering I keep my vehicles until I wear them out, I do believe that
            paying for a hybrid will be well worth it. Considering that gas prices
            will be even higher in the future, I do believe I am being conservative
            in my comparisons. Any comments?

            Right now the Toyota Highlander Hybrid is looking good. It can tow 3500
            lbs and hauls a lot of stuff inside. It would be nicer to drive than a
            truck, and it's mileage is much higher than any truck I have looked at.
            --
            Bright Blessings,
            Garth & Kim Travis
            www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
            Bedias, Texas
            936-395-0110

          • Garth & Kim Travis
            Greetings, For a car, I drive a Toyota corolla, it gets 45 on the highway. I need the ability to tow a trailer of 3500 pounds. This will be a farm vehicle,
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 13, 2011
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              Greetings,

              For a car, I drive a Toyota corolla, it gets 45 on the highway. I need
              the ability to tow a trailer of 3500 pounds. This will be a farm
              vehicle, so hauling ability is a necessity, not optional.

              When we bought the corolla in 2007, we looked at a Prius. However, the
              highway mileage was the same. Since we are rural, 90% of our driving is
              highway, so our considerations are a bit different.

              I know it doesn't make any financial sense, but I think I will vote my
              conscience with my dollars and buy the hybrid anyway.

              Bright Blessings,
              Garth & Kim Travis
              www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
              Bedias, Texas
              936-395-0110

              On 10/13/2011 7:42 AM, Mike and Barbara McGinity wrote:
              > I am not a math or numbers person and I am not familiar with the Toyota
              > Highlander, but I have a Fusion Hybrid and prior to that I had a Volvo
              > convertible. My Volvo was an older model, and I got about 23 miles on
              > the highway. I get 36 to 37 with my Fusion. The Hybrid actually gets
              > better mileage with stop and go in the city than the highway. It is at
              > 37.2 right now, but if I drive to Dallas it will go down to about 36.7.
              >
              > Don't know if this helps you make your decision, but I can say I am very
              > happy with my choice.
              >
              > Barbara McGinity
              >
            • Jay Ring
              It seems to me you might want to find a compressed natural gas (CNG) conversion. They are available in bi-fuel/dual-fuel models, so you can use gasoline when
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 13, 2011
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                It seems to me you might want to find a compressed natural gas (CNG) conversion.

                They are available in bi-fuel/dual-fuel models, so you can use gasoline when you are far from a station.

                If your home has natural gas service, you can get a home filling station, which is really just a compressor.

                The cost of CNG is significantly lower than gasoline per mile traveled. It fluctuates depending on the cost of gasoline and natural gas, but it's usually around 50% the cost of gasoline per mile traveled.

                It emits less CO2 per mile traveled too, if that is important to you.

                You do lose some HP when operating off natural gas, but you can just use gasoline if you are towing something heavy, and use CNG for the normal miles. Most conversions will have this ability.

                I believe there were some Ford F150s that were made a few years back. Maybe 2004? You should also be able to find aftermarket conversions, but it will take a lot of searching to find someone who can do it.

                I am not endorsing these guys, I never used them. But it was the first result I found for someone who would do the conversion:
                http://cngoutfitters.com/

                They have a show in Oklahoma and Louisiana. The shop in Louisiana seems very competent. With some searching, you might find someone in Houston who can do it.

                I haven't really paid much attention to it lately, but it might be a good fit for you.




                --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@...> wrote:
                >
                > Greetings,
                >
                > For a car, I drive a Toyota corolla, it gets 45 on the highway. I need
                > the ability to tow a trailer of 3500 pounds. This will be a farm
                > vehicle, so hauling ability is a necessity, not optional.
                >
                > When we bought the corolla in 2007, we looked at a Prius. However, the
                > highway mileage was the same. Since we are rural, 90% of our driving is
                > highway, so our considerations are a bit different.
                >
                > I know it doesn't make any financial sense, but I think I will vote my
                > conscience with my dollars and buy the hybrid anyway.
                >
                > Bright Blessings,
                > Garth & Kim Travis
                > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                > Bedias, Texas
                > 936-395-0110
                >
                > On 10/13/2011 7:42 AM, Mike and Barbara McGinity wrote:
                > > I am not a math or numbers person and I am not familiar with the Toyota
                > > Highlander, but I have a Fusion Hybrid and prior to that I had a Volvo
                > > convertible. My Volvo was an older model, and I got about 23 miles on
                > > the highway. I get 36 to 37 with my Fusion. The Hybrid actually gets
                > > better mileage with stop and go in the city than the highway. It is at
                > > 37.2 right now, but if I drive to Dallas it will go down to about 36.7.
                > >
                > > Don't know if this helps you make your decision, but I can say I am very
                > > happy with my choice.
                > >
                > > Barbara McGinity
                > >
                >
              • Garth & Kim Travis
                Greetings, While I don t know much about NG usage, I have owned several propane vehicles. We lost about 20% on mileage, but since propane at that time was
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 13, 2011
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                  Greetings,
                  While I don't know much about NG usage, I have owned several propane
                  vehicles. We lost about 20% on mileage, but since propane at that time
                  was half the cost of gasoline, it was efficient. That was in Canada.

                  I am rural, so no natural gas out here. Propane is extremely expensive
                  and not an economical option. I did look at it. I have a 98 Ford
                  Ranger that could have been converted, but it would not pay. We did
                  consider methane, as we would like to get into methane production, but
                  that project has not even made the current todo list. I may do that in
                  the future, for a runabout vehicle.

                  Bright Blessings,
                  Garth & Kim Travis
                  www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                  Bedias, Texas
                  936-395-0110

                  On 10/13/2011 9:16 AM, Jay Ring wrote:
                  > It seems to me you might want to find a compressed natural gas (CNG)
                  > conversion.
                  >
                  > They are available in bi-fuel/dual-fuel models, so you can use gasoline
                  > when you are far from a station.
                  >
                  > If your home has natural gas service, you can get a home filling
                  > station, which is really just a compressor.
                  >
                  > The cost of CNG is significantly lower than gasoline per mile traveled.
                  > It fluctuates depending on the cost of gasoline and natural gas, but
                  > it's usually around 50% the cost of gasoline per mile traveled.
                  >
                  > It emits less CO2 per mile traveled too, if that is important to you.
                  >
                  > You do lose some HP when operating off natural gas, but you can just use
                  > gasoline if you are towing something heavy, and use CNG for the normal
                  > miles. Most conversions will have this ability.
                  >
                  > I believe there were some Ford F150s that were made a few years back.
                  > Maybe 2004? You should also be able to find aftermarket conversions, but
                  > it will take a lot of searching to find someone who can do it.
                  >
                  > I am not endorsing these guys, I never used them. But it was the first
                  > result I found for someone who would do the conversion:
                  > http://cngoutfitters.com/
                  >
                  > They have a show in Oklahoma and Louisiana. The shop in Louisiana seems
                  > very competent. With some searching, you might find someone in Houston
                  > who can do it.
                  >
                  > I haven't really paid much attention to it lately, but it might be a
                  > good fit for you.
                  >
                  > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hreg%40yahoogroups.com>, Garth & Kim
                  > Travis <gartht@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Greetings,
                  > >
                  > > For a car, I drive a Toyota corolla, it gets 45 on the highway. I need
                  > > the ability to tow a trailer of 3500 pounds. This will be a farm
                  > > vehicle, so hauling ability is a necessity, not optional.
                  > >
                  > > When we bought the corolla in 2007, we looked at a Prius. However, the
                  > > highway mileage was the same. Since we are rural, 90% of our driving is
                  > > highway, so our considerations are a bit different.
                  > >
                  > > I know it doesn't make any financial sense, but I think I will vote my
                  > > conscience with my dollars and buy the hybrid anyway.
                  > >
                  > > Bright Blessings,
                  > > Garth & Kim Travis
                  > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                  > > Bedias, Texas
                  > > 936-395-0110
                  > >
                  > > On 10/13/2011 7:42 AM, Mike and Barbara McGinity wrote:
                  > > > I am not a math or numbers person and I am not familiar with the Toyota
                  > > > Highlander, but I have a Fusion Hybrid and prior to that I had a Volvo
                  > > > convertible. My Volvo was an older model, and I got about 23 miles on
                  > > > the highway. I get 36 to 37 with my Fusion. The Hybrid actually gets
                  > > > better mileage with stop and go in the city than the highway. It is at
                  > > > 37.2 right now, but if I drive to Dallas it will go down to about 36.7.
                  > > >
                  > > > Don't know if this helps you make your decision, but I can say I am
                  > very
                  > > > happy with my choice.
                  > > >
                  > > > Barbara McGinity
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > No virus found in this message.
                  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
                  > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4549 - Release Date: 10/13/11
                  >
                • Jay Ring
                  I would not mess with propane under any circumstances. CNG is not the same as propane. If you don t have a place you go fairly often that you can fill up on
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 13, 2011
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                    I would not mess with propane under any circumstances.

                    CNG is not the same as propane.

                    If you don't have a place you go fairly often that you can fill up on CNG, it won't be a very good option.

                    Honestly, hybrids aren't that great for you either. Their main advantage is the regenerative breaking, which really only helps people who do a lot of stop-and-go travel.

                    On a farm, or on the interstates, hybrid technology is usually less efficient than regular high-MPG technology.

                    Good luck with your search!



                    --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Greetings,
                    > While I don't know much about NG usage, I have owned several propane
                    > vehicles. We lost about 20% on mileage, but since propane at that time
                    > was half the cost of gasoline, it was efficient. That was in Canada.
                    >
                    > I am rural, so no natural gas out here. Propane is extremely expensive
                    > and not an economical option. I did look at it. I have a 98 Ford
                    > Ranger that could have been converted, but it would not pay. We did
                    > consider methane, as we would like to get into methane production, but
                    > that project has not even made the current todo list. I may do that in
                    > the future, for a runabout vehicle.
                    >
                    > Bright Blessings,
                    > Garth & Kim Travis
                    > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                    > Bedias, Texas
                    > 936-395-0110
                    >
                    > On 10/13/2011 9:16 AM, Jay Ring wrote:
                    > > It seems to me you might want to find a compressed natural gas (CNG)
                    > > conversion.
                    > >
                    > > They are available in bi-fuel/dual-fuel models, so you can use gasoline
                    > > when you are far from a station.
                    > >
                    > > If your home has natural gas service, you can get a home filling
                    > > station, which is really just a compressor.
                    > >
                    > > The cost of CNG is significantly lower than gasoline per mile traveled.
                    > > It fluctuates depending on the cost of gasoline and natural gas, but
                    > > it's usually around 50% the cost of gasoline per mile traveled.
                    > >
                    > > It emits less CO2 per mile traveled too, if that is important to you.
                    > >
                    > > You do lose some HP when operating off natural gas, but you can just use
                    > > gasoline if you are towing something heavy, and use CNG for the normal
                    > > miles. Most conversions will have this ability.
                    > >
                    > > I believe there were some Ford F150s that were made a few years back.
                    > > Maybe 2004? You should also be able to find aftermarket conversions, but
                    > > it will take a lot of searching to find someone who can do it.
                    > >
                    > > I am not endorsing these guys, I never used them. But it was the first
                    > > result I found for someone who would do the conversion:
                    > > http://cngoutfitters.com/
                    > >
                    > > They have a show in Oklahoma and Louisiana. The shop in Louisiana seems
                    > > very competent. With some searching, you might find someone in Houston
                    > > who can do it.
                    > >
                    > > I haven't really paid much attention to it lately, but it might be a
                    > > good fit for you.
                    > >
                    > > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hreg%40yahoogroups.com>, Garth & Kim
                    > > Travis <gartht@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Greetings,
                    > > >
                    > > > For a car, I drive a Toyota corolla, it gets 45 on the highway. I need
                    > > > the ability to tow a trailer of 3500 pounds. This will be a farm
                    > > > vehicle, so hauling ability is a necessity, not optional.
                    > > >
                    > > > When we bought the corolla in 2007, we looked at a Prius. However, the
                    > > > highway mileage was the same. Since we are rural, 90% of our driving is
                    > > > highway, so our considerations are a bit different.
                    > > >
                    > > > I know it doesn't make any financial sense, but I think I will vote my
                    > > > conscience with my dollars and buy the hybrid anyway.
                    > > >
                    > > > Bright Blessings,
                    > > > Garth & Kim Travis
                    > > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                    > > > Bedias, Texas
                    > > > 936-395-0110
                    > > >
                    > > > On 10/13/2011 7:42 AM, Mike and Barbara McGinity wrote:
                    > > > > I am not a math or numbers person and I am not familiar with the Toyota
                    > > > > Highlander, but I have a Fusion Hybrid and prior to that I had a Volvo
                    > > > > convertible. My Volvo was an older model, and I got about 23 miles on
                    > > > > the highway. I get 36 to 37 with my Fusion. The Hybrid actually gets
                    > > > > better mileage with stop and go in the city than the highway. It is at
                    > > > > 37.2 right now, but if I drive to Dallas it will go down to about 36.7.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Don't know if this helps you make your decision, but I can say I am
                    > > very
                    > > > > happy with my choice.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Barbara McGinity
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > No virus found in this message.
                    > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
                    > > Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2090/4549 - Release Date: 10/13/11
                    > >
                    >
                  • Eileen Nehiley
                    A hybrid gets better city gas mileage than highway. It is the opposite of gas powered cars. Most hybrids must convert to gas once the vehicle reaches 30 mph. I
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 13, 2011
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                      A hybrid gets better city gas mileage than highway. It is the opposite of gas powered cars. Most hybrids must convert to gas once the vehicle reaches 30 mph. I have seen a hybrid that runs on the electric battery higher - at least that's what the salesperson at TEDx claimed in June. I didn't look it up. That vehicle was out of my price range so I didn't bother.
                      Eileen Nehiley
                      On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 7:18 AM, Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@...> wrote:
                       

                      Greetings,

                      I am looking at what it really costs to have a more fuel efficient
                      vehicle. Here is what I have figured out so far.

                      If I pay an extra $10,000 for a hybrid that gets 3mpg more on the
                      highway, I figure it will take me 66,000 miles to break even with gas
                      priced at $3.50 per gallon. I drive 90% highway, so that is the mileage
                      figure most important to me.

                      I figured this by looking at the number of gallons of fuel it takes to
                      drive 10,000 miles. At 25mpg, that number is 400, but at 28 it is
                      357.14, so I save 43 gallons. At $3.50 per gallon that is a savings of
                      $150.50 per 10,000 miles. So it takes about 66,000 miles to break even.

                      Considering I keep my vehicles until I wear them out, I do believe that
                      paying for a hybrid will be well worth it. Considering that gas prices
                      will be even higher in the future, I do believe I am being conservative
                      in my comparisons. Any comments?

                      Right now the Toyota Highlander Hybrid is looking good. It can tow 3500
                      lbs and hauls a lot of stuff inside. It would be nicer to drive than a
                      truck, and it's mileage is much higher than any truck I have looked at.
                      --
                      Bright Blessings,
                      Garth & Kim Travis
                      www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                      Bedias, Texas
                      936-395-0110




                      --
                      "In every culture and in every medical tradition before ours, healing was accomplished by moving energy." Albert Szent-Gyorgyi, Nobel Laureate in Medicine
                    • Ariel Thomann
                      Garth and Kim wrote: I am looking at what it really costs to have a more fuel efficient vehicle.... My 2005 Prius is approaching 150,000 miles, over half of
                      Message 10 of 10 , Oct 14, 2011
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                        Garth and Kim wrote:
                        "I am looking at what it really costs to have a more fuel efficient vehicle.... "

                        My 2005 Prius is approaching 150,000 miles, over half of it on the highway (where I do rather regularly go about 5-10 % over the speed limit - mea culpa).  My "vanity plate" says 44 MPG because early on I concluded I would average that if I drive halfway carefully.  Overall, I have really averaged right at a very honest 40 MPG.  Newer Prii(?) reportedly do quite a bit better.

                        You must remember that wind resistance is proportional to the SQUARE of the front cross-section of the vehicle.  From that standpoint, I'd like for the Prius to be less tall (I'm 5'-8" and have way more headroom than I need).  If you spend a lot of time on the highway, you should consider the front cross-section.  I'm sure that applies to towing-capable vehicles as well as to small sedans.

                        FYI, my costs (besides tires, wipers, etc) have been a rear bumper thanks to somebody else, a water pump, and the "small" battery replaced at about 120,000 miles.  Oh, and $ 2.25 for a back-up light bulb which I still think should have been a warranty item.  I love my Prius and the smart people who designed it.

                        Peace
                        Ariel

                        - We are all Human beings here together.  We have to help one another, since otherwise there is NO ONE who will help.
                        - All countries need a NO REGRETS strategic policy regarding non-renewable resources, starting with water.
                        - Plan ahead seven generations -- reduce all your consumption, and eliminate waste.
                        - "Health" insurance companies are the American death panels; their business is to collect premiums and deny benefits. Their CEO's, and lesser bureaucrats, should not be part of any civilized health care system.

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