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Re: [hreg] Re: Electricity deregulation

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  • mike schmitt
    where can we find out more information on the Green Mountain energy setup mike ... From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 5, 2001
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      where can we find out more information on the Green Mountain energy setup

      mike



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <mike.ewert@...>
      To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 7:44 PM
      Subject: [hreg] Re: Electricity deregulation


      > I just signed up with Green Mountain for 100% wind energy. It will
      > be about the same as I am paying now. I could have saved a few bucks
      > a month with some of the new companies, but would cause a lot more
      > pollution!
      >
      > www.powertochoose.org is a nice site. I suspect our friends in
      > Austin had a lot to do with the PUC's nice treatment of renewables.
      > Check out the price & pollution comparisons yourself.
      >
      > Let's start a consumer revolution!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      >
      > --- In hreg@y..., "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@b...> wrote:
      > > If you haven't already, check out the Texas Utility Commission's
      > website,
      > > and
      > > especially:
      > >
      > > http://www.powertochoose.org/
      > >
      > > There are good resources there that explain the program, the
      > choices in your
      > > area, etc. There is a standardized comparison sheet that each
      > utility is
      > > supposed
      > > to use that allows you to readily compare the key features of each
      > one.
      > > Part of
      > > this sheet (near the bottom) is a graph that illustrates the
      > percentage of
      > > the
      > > electricity that comes from various sources (renewables, gas, coal,
      > nuclear)
      > > and
      > > the emissions.
      > >
      > > Green Mountain obviously has no emissions. However, it is a little
      > more
      > > pricey
      > > that than the others, so you are basically voting your social
      > consciousness
      > > rather
      > > than your wallet if you choose them. (Yes, I know that some will
      > argue the
      > > cost
      > > is less because there isn't the environmental impact, but I'm
      > talking about
      > > the
      > > cost to your personal wallet today, not the cost to society
      > tomorrow).
      > >
      > > I encourage you to check things out for yourself. I got a flier in
      > the mail
      > > from
      > > NewPower last week, and after checking out the options, decided to
      > go for
      > > them.
      > > They have a lower rate, and also free Decembers for 2 years. That
      > sounded
      > > good
      > > to me. I wish I knew what Reliant was going to offer, but there
      > wasn't info
      > > for them
      > > so far as I could find; I'm guessing they are probably restricted
      > from
      > > announcing
      > > prices until the newbies are established?? Anyway, I'm free to
      > switch back
      > > to
      > > Reliant anytime during the pilot without a penalty, so I'll be
      > watching
      > > their rates
      > > carefully.
      > >
      > > Who knows, Charlie, maybe with the tax breaks your favorite
      > president has
      > > given
      > > to businesses that invest in renewables, maybe Green Mountain will
      > be able
      > > to drop
      > > their price to be competitive? :-)
      > >
      > > BTW, most of these companies, including Green Mountain, just pump
      > power into
      > > the grid. Enron is a big player in the commodity trading of
      > electricity.
      > > Companies
      > > put power into the grid, and buy and sell power via exchanges like
      > Enron's,
      > > and you
      > > end up with power at your house based on what was fed into the grid
      > by all
      > > players.
      > > Your electrons will probably not originate in a West Texas
      > windmill, but
      > > Green Mountain
      > > promises to put as much into the grid as their retail customers
      > take out of
      > > it.
      > >
      > > Robert Johnston
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: ChasMauch@a... [mailto:ChasMauch@a...]
      > > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 12:29 PM
      > > To: hreg@y...
      > > Subject: [hreg] Electricity deregulation
      > >
      > >
      > > A big front-page article in the Houston Chronicle today says that
      > people
      > > are
      > > really slow about signing up for the new pilot program on
      > electricity
      > > deregulation. They had hoped to get 5% residential participation
      > or about
      > > 205,025 statewide but so far only 43,356 or 21% of that number
      > have signed
      > > up, and they have moved the effective date back from early June
      > to July
      > > 6th.
      > > Participation is higher in Houston but still only 27,017 people
      > or 45%
      > > have
      > > signed up for the 60,106 slots we are entitled to.
      > > There are six choices available in the Houston area: Entergy
      > Solutions,
      > > First
      > > Choice Power, Green Mountain Energy, The New Power Company, Shell
      > Energy,
      > > and
      > > TXU Energy Services.
      > > Of course we can stay with Reliant Energy but I am still extremely
      > > aggravated
      > > with them and hate to pass up an opportunity to express my
      > irritation
      > > about
      > > their spending $300 million on that naming-rights deal for every
      > building
      > > in
      > > the Astrodome complex, including the new football stadium. I am
      > just
      > > itching
      > > to switch to Green Mountain, which gets all its energy from wind,
      > and plan
      > > to
      > > do that unless someone can give me a good reason why that would
      > be a bad
      > > thing to do. I guess one problem is that I'm not totally sure the
      > whole
      > > idea
      > > of deregulation is a good thing. As they say it all depends on
      > how you do
      > > it,
      > > the devil is in the details, etc.
      > > Does anyone have any ideas on this? What are most of us going to
      > do?
      > > Charlie
      > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > >
      > > www.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > Service.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • mike.ewert@att.net
      I just signed up with Green Mountain for 100% wind energy. It will be about the same as I am paying now. I could have saved a few bucks a month with some of
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 5, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        I just signed up with Green Mountain for 100% wind energy. It will
        be about the same as I am paying now. I could have saved a few bucks
        a month with some of the new companies, but would cause a lot more
        pollution!

        www.powertochoose.org is a nice site. I suspect our friends in
        Austin had a lot to do with the PUC's nice treatment of renewables.
        Check out the price & pollution comparisons yourself.

        Let's start a consumer revolution!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        --- In hreg@y..., "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@b...> wrote:
        > If you haven't already, check out the Texas Utility Commission's
        website,
        > and
        > especially:
        >
        > http://www.powertochoose.org/
        >
        > There are good resources there that explain the program, the
        choices in your
        > area, etc. There is a standardized comparison sheet that each
        utility is
        > supposed
        > to use that allows you to readily compare the key features of each
        one.
        > Part of
        > this sheet (near the bottom) is a graph that illustrates the
        percentage of
        > the
        > electricity that comes from various sources (renewables, gas, coal,
        nuclear)
        > and
        > the emissions.
        >
        > Green Mountain obviously has no emissions. However, it is a little
        more
        > pricey
        > that than the others, so you are basically voting your social
        consciousness
        > rather
        > than your wallet if you choose them. (Yes, I know that some will
        argue the
        > cost
        > is less because there isn't the environmental impact, but I'm
        talking about
        > the
        > cost to your personal wallet today, not the cost to society
        tomorrow).
        >
        > I encourage you to check things out for yourself. I got a flier in
        the mail
        > from
        > NewPower last week, and after checking out the options, decided to
        go for
        > them.
        > They have a lower rate, and also free Decembers for 2 years. That
        sounded
        > good
        > to me. I wish I knew what Reliant was going to offer, but there
        wasn't info
        > for them
        > so far as I could find; I'm guessing they are probably restricted
        from
        > announcing
        > prices until the newbies are established?? Anyway, I'm free to
        switch back
        > to
        > Reliant anytime during the pilot without a penalty, so I'll be
        watching
        > their rates
        > carefully.
        >
        > Who knows, Charlie, maybe with the tax breaks your favorite
        president has
        > given
        > to businesses that invest in renewables, maybe Green Mountain will
        be able
        > to drop
        > their price to be competitive? :-)
        >
        > BTW, most of these companies, including Green Mountain, just pump
        power into
        > the grid. Enron is a big player in the commodity trading of
        electricity.
        > Companies
        > put power into the grid, and buy and sell power via exchanges like
        Enron's,
        > and you
        > end up with power at your house based on what was fed into the grid
        by all
        > players.
        > Your electrons will probably not originate in a West Texas
        windmill, but
        > Green Mountain
        > promises to put as much into the grid as their retail customers
        take out of
        > it.
        >
        > Robert Johnston
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: ChasMauch@a... [mailto:ChasMauch@a...]
        > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 12:29 PM
        > To: hreg@y...
        > Subject: [hreg] Electricity deregulation
        >
        >
        > A big front-page article in the Houston Chronicle today says that
        people
        > are
        > really slow about signing up for the new pilot program on
        electricity
        > deregulation. They had hoped to get 5% residential participation
        or about
        > 205,025 statewide but so far only 43,356 or 21% of that number
        have signed
        > up, and they have moved the effective date back from early June
        to July
        > 6th.
        > Participation is higher in Houston but still only 27,017 people
        or 45%
        > have
        > signed up for the 60,106 slots we are entitled to.
        > There are six choices available in the Houston area: Entergy
        Solutions,
        > First
        > Choice Power, Green Mountain Energy, The New Power Company, Shell
        Energy,
        > and
        > TXU Energy Services.
        > Of course we can stay with Reliant Energy but I am still extremely
        > aggravated
        > with them and hate to pass up an opportunity to express my
        irritation
        > about
        > their spending $300 million on that naming-rights deal for every
        building
        > in
        > the Astrodome complex, including the new football stadium. I am
        just
        > itching
        > to switch to Green Mountain, which gets all its energy from wind,
        and plan
        > to
        > do that unless someone can give me a good reason why that would
        be a bad
        > thing to do. I guess one problem is that I'm not totally sure the
        whole
        > idea
        > of deregulation is a good thing. As they say it all depends on
        how you do
        > it,
        > the devil is in the details, etc.
        > Does anyone have any ideas on this? What are most of us going to
        do?
        > Charlie
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        >
        > www.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
      • ChasMauch@aol.com
        I learned something about this deregulation business last week by losing an argument to someone more knowledgeable than I am. At least I think I did. Maybe he
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 5, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          I learned something about this deregulation business last week by losing an
          argument to someone more knowledgeable than I am. At least I think I did.
          Maybe he just outtalked me and I didn't know enough to defend myself. Here is
          what I think he said.
          All providers are required to get 3% of their power from renewable sources,
          so my thinking was that eventually everyone would end up buying 3% of their
          power from renewables, whether they wanted to or not and no matter who they
          buy their juice from. So if we could get 1000s of people to sign up with
          Green Mountain and get 100% from wind, since everyone is buying 3% renewables
          and we are buying 100% renewables over and above the base requirement, we
          might achieve much more than 3% and maybe get the total up to 5% or 10% or
          more of the statewide supply from renewables.
          But I was told that the 3% is a sort of cap that is essentially subsidized,
          and if we exceed that statewide from all providers averaged together the
          subsidy goes away on all over 3% and the price will go up substantially -
          enough to make it uneconomical for anyone to buy it (or to produce it) so no
          one will. When the competition gets under way (I guess it has already) to
          build more green supply, the big boys will build just enough to make their 3%
          or maybe less and buy the rest from others. The small independent suppliers
          providing the excess capacity will be squeezed out and it will all end up
          controlled by the same old crowd of Reliant and Enron and the like.
          So at this point it looks to me like this is pretty much of a scam on the
          part of the big producers - a way for them to start gradually phasing into
          fossil fuels and looking very green while really just responding to
          inevitable market forces. They will gradually get the cap raised as needed in
          the future to keep the game going.
          Maybe I'm confused about this. I have not made a detailed study of the rules
          and certainly can't read anyone's motives. They say we now have the most
          progressive law along this line anywhere in the world which is an incredible
          first for Texas, even though I'm paranoid enough to just assume that even if
          they did the right thing it's almost certainly for the wrong reasons. I guess
          that's OK but since I believe we have too much corporate dominance of our
          economy already, I would at least like to understand what is really going on.
          The above probably isn't very clear but hopefully you all can follow what I'm
          trying to say. Maybe someone at TxSES can enlighten me on this.
          Charlie
        • ChasMauch@aol.com
          Oops! In my previous email I meant to say - phasing OUT fossil fuels and phasing in renewables. Charlie
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 5, 2001
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            Oops! In my previous email I meant to say - phasing OUT fossil fuels and
            phasing in renewables.
            Charlie
          • James Ferrill
            Charlie, I was going to wait until after dereg started to even consider switching. Every piece of info I saw stated in the fine print that the prices were only
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 5, 2001
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              Charlie,

              I was going to wait until after dereg started to even consider switching. Every piece of info I saw stated in the fine print that the prices were only guaranteed until the end of the year. So they aren't committing to anything. I came to the same pricing conclusion that Mike did about Green Mountain, but deferred signing up until I could find out where exactly they had a wind farm, whether they guarantee 100% renewable use, and how much "dirty" system power are they allowed to use in the mix? And heaven only knows what wrench the legislature is going to throw into the process.

              One conclusion that keeps popping into my mind: The less I use, the less I pay. 100% rate of return on conservation.

              My 2 cents.

              James

              At 10:17 PM 6/5/2001, you wrote:
              I learned something about this deregulation business last week by losing an
              argument to someone more knowledgeable than I am. At least I think I did.
              Maybe he just outtalked me and I didn't know enough to defend myself. Here is
              what I think he said.
              All providers are required to get 3% of their power from renewable sources,
              so my thinking was that eventually everyone would end up buying 3% of their
              power from renewables, whether they wanted to or not and no matter who they
              buy their juice from. So if we could get 1000s of people to sign up with
              Green Mountain and get 100% from wind, since everyone is buying 3% renewables
              and we are buying 100% renewables over and above the base requirement, we
              might achieve much more than 3% and maybe get the total up to 5% or 10% or
              more of the statewide supply from renewables.
              But I was told that the 3% is a sort of cap that is essentially subsidized,
              and if we exceed that statewide from all providers averaged together the
              subsidy goes away on all over 3% and the price will go up substantially -
              enough to make it uneconomical for anyone to buy it (or to produce it) so no
              one will. When the competition gets under way (I guess it has already) to
              build more green supply, the big boys will build just enough to make their 3%
              or maybe less and buy the rest from others. The small independent suppliers
              providing the excess capacity will be squeezed out and it will all end up
              controlled by the same old crowd of Reliant and Enron and the like.
              So at this point it looks to me like this is pretty much of a scam on the
              part of the big producers - a way for them to start gradually phasing into
              fossil fuels and looking very green while really just responding to
              inevitable market forces. They will gradually get the cap raised as needed in
              the future to keep the game going.
              Maybe I'm confused about this. I have not made a detailed study of the rules
              and certainly can't read anyone's motives. They say we now have the most
              progressive law along this line anywhere in the world which is an incredible
              first for Texas, even though I'm paranoid enough to just assume that even if
              they did the right thing it's almost certainly for the wrong reasons. I guess
              that's OK but since I believe we have too much corporate dominance of our
              economy already, I would at least like to understand what is really going on.
              The above probably isn't very clear but hopefully you all can follow what I'm
              trying to say. Maybe someone at TxSES can enlighten me on this.
              Charlie

            • Mike Ewert
              All the companies are listed on that website, but Green Mountain s direct address is: https://www.greenmountain.com/gmec/tx/index.jsp It only takes a few
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 5, 2001
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                All the companies are listed on that website, but Green Mountain's direct
                address is: https://www.greenmountain.com/gmec/tx/index.jsp
                It only takes a few minutes and your current electric account number from
                your bill to sign up.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: mike schmitt [mailto:mschmitt@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 5:43 PM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: Electricity deregulation


                where can we find out more information on the Green Mountain energy setup

                mike



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <mike.ewert@...>
                To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 7:44 PM
                Subject: [hreg] Re: Electricity deregulation


                > I just signed up with Green Mountain for 100% wind energy. It will
                > be about the same as I am paying now. I could have saved a few bucks
                > a month with some of the new companies, but would cause a lot more
                > pollution!
                >
                > www.powertochoose.org is a nice site. I suspect our friends in
                > Austin had a lot to do with the PUC's nice treatment of renewables.
                > Check out the price & pollution comparisons yourself.
                >
                > Let's start a consumer revolution!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                >
                > --- In hreg@y..., "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@b...> wrote:
                > > If you haven't already, check out the Texas Utility Commission's
                > website,
                > > and
                > > especially:
                > >
                > > http://www.powertochoose.org/
                > >
                > > There are good resources there that explain the program, the
                > choices in your
                > > area, etc. There is a standardized comparison sheet that each
                > utility is
                > > supposed
                > > to use that allows you to readily compare the key features of each
                > one.
                > > Part of
                > > this sheet (near the bottom) is a graph that illustrates the
                > percentage of
                > > the
                > > electricity that comes from various sources (renewables, gas, coal,
                > nuclear)
                > > and
                > > the emissions.
                > >
                > > Green Mountain obviously has no emissions. However, it is a little
                > more
                > > pricey
                > > that than the others, so you are basically voting your social
                > consciousness
                > > rather
                > > than your wallet if you choose them. (Yes, I know that some will
                > argue the
                > > cost
                > > is less because there isn't the environmental impact, but I'm
                > talking about
                > > the
                > > cost to your personal wallet today, not the cost to society
                > tomorrow).
                > >
                > > I encourage you to check things out for yourself. I got a flier in
                > the mail
                > > from
                > > NewPower last week, and after checking out the options, decided to
                > go for
                > > them.
                > > They have a lower rate, and also free Decembers for 2 years. That
                > sounded
                > > good
                > > to me. I wish I knew what Reliant was going to offer, but there
                > wasn't info
                > > for them
                > > so far as I could find; I'm guessing they are probably restricted
                > from
                > > announcing
                > > prices until the newbies are established?? Anyway, I'm free to
                > switch back
                > > to
                > > Reliant anytime during the pilot without a penalty, so I'll be
                > watching
                > > their rates
                > > carefully.
                > >
                > > Who knows, Charlie, maybe with the tax breaks your favorite
                > president has
                > > given
                > > to businesses that invest in renewables, maybe Green Mountain will
                > be able
                > > to drop
                > > their price to be competitive? :-)
                > >
                > > BTW, most of these companies, including Green Mountain, just pump
                > power into
                > > the grid. Enron is a big player in the commodity trading of
                > electricity.
                > > Companies
                > > put power into the grid, and buy and sell power via exchanges like
                > Enron's,
                > > and you
                > > end up with power at your house based on what was fed into the grid
                > by all
                > > players.
                > > Your electrons will probably not originate in a West Texas
                > windmill, but
                > > Green Mountain
                > > promises to put as much into the grid as their retail customers
                > take out of
                > > it.
                > >
                > > Robert Johnston
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: ChasMauch@a... [mailto:ChasMauch@a...]
                > > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 12:29 PM
                > > To: hreg@y...
                > > Subject: [hreg] Electricity deregulation
                > >
                > >
                > > A big front-page article in the Houston Chronicle today says that
                > people
                > > are
                > > really slow about signing up for the new pilot program on
                > electricity
                > > deregulation. They had hoped to get 5% residential participation
                > or about
                > > 205,025 statewide but so far only 43,356 or 21% of that number
                > have signed
                > > up, and they have moved the effective date back from early June
                > to July
                > > 6th.
                > > Participation is higher in Houston but still only 27,017 people
                > or 45%
                > > have
                > > signed up for the 60,106 slots we are entitled to.
                > > There are six choices available in the Houston area: Entergy
                > Solutions,
                > > First
                > > Choice Power, Green Mountain Energy, The New Power Company, Shell
                > Energy,
                > > and
                > > TXU Energy Services.
                > > Of course we can stay with Reliant Energy but I am still extremely
                > > aggravated
                > > with them and hate to pass up an opportunity to express my
                > irritation
                > > about
                > > their spending $300 million on that naming-rights deal for every
                > building
                > > in
                > > the Astrodome complex, including the new football stadium. I am
                > just
                > > itching
                > > to switch to Green Mountain, which gets all its energy from wind,
                > and plan
                > > to
                > > do that unless someone can give me a good reason why that would
                > be a bad
                > > thing to do. I guess one problem is that I'm not totally sure the
                > whole
                > > idea
                > > of deregulation is a good thing. As they say it all depends on
                > how you do
                > > it,
                > > the devil is in the details, etc.
                > > Does anyone have any ideas on this? What are most of us going to
                > do?
                > > Charlie
                > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > >
                > > www.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > Service.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >




                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • mike schmitt
                I just tried to call Green Mountain to ask them some of the questions you guys have talked about tonight. I got the recorded message that ..leave your name and
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 5, 2001
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                  I just tried to call Green Mountain to ask them some of the questions you guys have talked about tonight. I got the recorded message that ..leave your name and number and a time that we can reach you.. message. they are open from 8 to 5 PM during the week and 7 to 7 on the weekend. I would love to think that dereg is going to be good for me but something tells me to be careful. If anyone else tries calling and gets through find out if they even have the wind farm fully operational. I looked on their web site and could not find out if the farm was up and running. this is the only information I could find:
                   
                   

                  Q. What difference can I make by choosing Green Mountain Energy Company?
                  A. By choosing Green Mountain Energysm, you are helping change the way power is made. Every Green Mountain Energy Company customer helps create more demand for electricity generated from cleaner and renewable resources, rather than non-renewable sources like coal and oil. One example of creating demand, is the construction of new renewable facilities. To date, five such facilities have been built in California and Pennsylvania to meet the demand of our customers.  they don't even mention where in Texas.. they just say a new facility in Texas

                  • Three wind turbines in the San Gorgonio Pass, California
                  • A solar plant in Conshohocken, Pennsylvania
                  • The Solar 2000 plant in Hopland, California
                  • The Green Mountain Wind Farm in Garrett, Pennsylvania
                  • The solar facility in Berkeley, California
                   
                  One other question is ..Harvey Wassermann said on a radio program that I heard that wind power is the fastest and the cheapest to build and from what I can tell the cheapest to maintain. Why is it then the prices per KW the same as Reliant. Not ever seeing a how an electrical plant is run, I'm guessing its like our petrochemical facility where its manned 24/7. I can understand the price of electricity from a coal burning plant but why is it just as high from a wind farm, because what energy they make wont be wasted it will be used in other areas until they build up the number of users in Texas.
                   
                  let me know if this sound sane
                   
                   
                   
                  Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 9:42 PM
                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: Electricity deregulation

                  Charlie,

                  I was going to wait until after dereg started to even consider switching. Every piece of info I saw stated in the fine print that the prices were only guaranteed until the end of the year. So they aren't committing to anything. I came to the same pricing conclusion that Mike did about Green Mountain, but deferred signing up until I could find out where exactly they had a wind farm, whether they guarantee 100% renewable use, and how much "dirty" system power are they allowed to use in the mix? And heaven only knows what wrench the legislature is going to throw into the process.

                  One conclusion that keeps popping into my mind: The less I use, the less I pay. 100% rate of return on conservation.

                  My 2 cents.

                  James

                  At 10:17 PM 6/5/2001, you wrote:
                  I learned something about this deregulation business last week by losing an
                  argument to someone more knowledgeable than I am. At least I think I did.
                  Maybe he just outtalked me and I didn't know enough to defend myself. Here is
                  what I think he said.
                  All providers are required to get 3% of their power from renewable sources,
                  so my thinking was that eventually everyone would end up buying 3% of their
                  power from renewables, whether they wanted to or not and no matter who they
                  buy their juice from. So if we could get 1000s of people to sign up with
                  Green Mountain and get 100% from wind, since everyone is buying 3% renewables
                  and we are buying 100% renewables over and above the base requirement, we
                  might achieve much more than 3% and maybe get the total up to 5% or 10% or
                  more of the statewide supply from renewables.
                  But I was told that the 3% is a sort of cap that is essentially subsidized,
                  and if we exceed that statewide from all providers averaged together the
                  subsidy goes away on all over 3% and the price will go up substantially -
                  enough to make it uneconomical for anyone to buy it (or to produce it) so no
                  one will. When the competition gets under way (I guess it has already) to
                  build more green supply, the big boys will build just enough to make their 3%
                  or maybe less and buy the rest from others. The small independent suppliers
                  providing the excess capacity will be squeezed out and it will all end up
                  controlled by the same old crowd of Reliant and Enron and the like.
                  So at this point it looks to me like this is pretty much of a scam on the
                  part of the big producers - a way for them to start gradually phasing into
                  fossil fuels and looking very green while really just responding to
                  inevitable market forces. They will gradually get the cap raised as needed in
                  the future to keep the game going.
                  Maybe I'm confused about this. I have not made a detailed study of the rules
                  and certainly can't read anyone's motives. They say we now have the most
                  progressive law along this line anywhere in the world which is an incredible
                  first for Texas, even though I'm paranoid enough to just assume that even if
                  they did the right thing it's almost certainly for the wrong reasons. I guess
                  that's OK but since I believe we have too much corporate dominance of our
                  economy already, I would at least like to understand what is really going on.
                  The above probably isn't very clear but hopefully you all can follow what I'm
                  trying to say. Maybe someone at TxSES can enlighten me on this.
                  Charlie



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                • Claude Foster
                  If you really want to know how a company is run, buy some of their stock. This will put you in the position of directing (a little bit) by voting how the
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 6, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    If you really want to know how a company is run, buy some of their stock.
                    This will put you in the position of directing (a little bit) by voting how
                    the company works.

                    Electrical costs from conventional plants are going up as fuel cost
                    increase. Wind, solar, and hydro, renewable resources, and nuclear require
                    high capital expenditure and interest rates for capital are low now. Their
                    are slightly more hazards associated with nuclear but the other clean
                    sources have some hazards and impacts that have been set aside for a while.
                    This seems to be the best of times to invest capital in energy companies.
                    Green Mountain appears to be stepping in the right direction but they also
                    need input from their stock holders. Lets speak together.


                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: James Ferrill [SMTP:jferrill@...]
                    > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 9:43 PM
                    > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [hreg] Re: Electricity deregulation
                    >
                    > Charlie,
                    >
                    > I was going to wait until after dereg started to even consider switching.
                    > Every piece of info I saw stated in the fine print that the prices were
                    > only guaranteed until the end of the year. So they aren't committing to
                    > anything. I came to the same pricing conclusion that Mike did about Green
                    > Mountain, but deferred signing up until I could find out where exactly
                    > they had a wind farm, whether they guarantee 100% renewable use, and how
                    > much "dirty" system power are they allowed to use in the mix? And heaven
                    > only knows what wrench the legislature is going to throw into the process.
                    >
                    > One conclusion that keeps popping into my mind: The less I use, the less I
                    > pay. 100% rate of return on conservation.
                    >
                    > My 2 cents.
                    >
                    > James
                    >
                    > At 10:17 PM 6/5/2001, you wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > I learned something about this deregulation business last week by
                    > losing an
                    > argument to someone more knowledgeable than I am. At least I think I
                    > did.
                    > Maybe he just outtalked me and I didn't know enough to defend
                    > myself. Here is
                    > what I think he said.
                    > All providers are required to get 3% of their power from renewable
                    > sources,
                    > so my thinking was that eventually everyone would end up buying 3%
                    > of their
                    > power from renewables, whether they wanted to or not and no matter
                    > who they
                    > buy their juice from. So if we could get 1000s of people to sign up
                    > with
                    > Green Mountain and get 100% from wind, since everyone is buying 3%
                    > renewables
                    > and we are buying 100% renewables over and above the base
                    > requirement, we
                    > might achieve much more than 3% and maybe get the total up to 5% or
                    > 10% or
                    > more of the statewide supply from renewables.
                    > But I was told that the 3% is a sort of cap that is essentially
                    > subsidized,
                    > and if we exceed that statewide from all providers averaged together
                    > the
                    > subsidy goes away on all over 3% and the price will go up
                    > substantially -
                    > enough to make it uneconomical for anyone to buy it (or to produce
                    > it) so no
                    > one will. When the competition gets under way (I guess it has
                    > already) to
                    > build more green supply, the big boys will build just enough to make
                    > their 3%
                    > or maybe less and buy the rest from others. The small independent
                    > suppliers
                    > providing the excess capacity will be squeezed out and it will all
                    > end up
                    > controlled by the same old crowd of Reliant and Enron and the like.
                    > So at this point it looks to me like this is pretty much of a scam
                    > on the
                    > part of the big producers - a way for them to start gradually
                    > phasing into
                    > fossil fuels and looking very green while really just responding to
                    > inevitable market forces. They will gradually get the cap raised as
                    > needed in
                    > the future to keep the game going.
                    > Maybe I'm confused about this. I have not made a detailed study of
                    > the rules
                    > and certainly can't read anyone's motives. They say we now have the
                    > most
                    > progressive law along this line anywhere in the world which is an
                    > incredible
                    > first for Texas, even though I'm paranoid enough to just assume that
                    > even if
                    > they did the right thing it's almost certainly for the wrong
                    > reasons. I guess
                    > that's OK but since I believe we have too much corporate dominance
                    > of our
                    > economy already, I would at least like to understand what is really
                    > going on.
                    > The above probably isn't very clear but hopefully you all can follow
                    > what I'm
                    > trying to say. Maybe someone at TxSES can enlighten me on this.
                    > Charlie
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • William M. Bell, Jr.
                    I think that Claude has hit on a great idea!!! As a shareholder, we will have access to detailed information about the company s investments into renewable
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 6, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I think that Claude has hit on a great idea!!! As a shareholder, we will
                      have access to detailed information about the company's investments into
                      renewable energy. I have been suspect of some of these company's claims.
                      When I tried to asked specific questions, no one answered. I plan to buy
                      some stock and become a customer and watch what happens. If public demand
                      increases, then the competition for this area should also increase.

                      Please correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that these
                      guys are merely buying power from other producers. Not that this is bad. It
                      allows us, as shareholders and customers, to influence where they go to buy.
                      They are not locked into a plant that they have built or purchased. They may
                      have long-term contracts, but that is generally shorter than ownership. This
                      means that they can switch to wind or solar if the shareholders (the owners)
                      want to do so.

                      But it also means that they could be buying electricity from sources that
                      are not as "green" as I would like them to be. I was never clear how much
                      green had to be in the mix to allow them to call the entire enchilada
                      "green." I was never really clear either on what is "green" according to
                      their definition.

                      William M. Bell, Jr.
                      PO Box 926
                      Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
                      wmb@...
                      Telephone: 713-439-1115
                      Fax (bus hours only) 281-346-0994

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Claude Foster <ccfoster@...>
                      To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 9:11 AM
                      Subject: RE: [hreg] Re: Electricity deregulation


                      > If you really want to know how a company is run, buy some of their stock.
                      > This will put you in the position of directing (a little bit) by voting
                      how
                      > the company works.
                      >
                      > Electrical costs from conventional plants are going up as fuel cost
                      > increase. Wind, solar, and hydro, renewable resources, and nuclear require
                      > high capital expenditure and interest rates for capital are low now. Their
                      > are slightly more hazards associated with nuclear but the other clean
                      > sources have some hazards and impacts that have been set aside for a
                      while.
                      > This seems to be the best of times to invest capital in energy companies.
                      > Green Mountain appears to be stepping in the right direction but they also
                      > need input from their stock holders. Lets speak together.
                      >
                      >
                    • Ryan McMullan
                      According to GME, their power is 100% wind generated. They provide a state-mandated breakdown (by Coal and lignite, Natural gas, Nuclear, Renewable Energy)
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 6, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        According to GME, their power is 100% wind generated. They
                        provide a state-mandated breakdown (by Coal and lignite, Natural gas,
                        Nuclear, Renewable Energy) and their state-registered mix is 100%
                        "Renewable Energy (wind)" (statewide average for Renewable is <1%). I
                        think being a shareholder to get the inside track is a great idea,
                        too. The closest stock I could find was Green Mountain Power (trades as
                        GMP), which was trading at 15.51 today. I think that's the same or related
                        company as Green Mountain Energy Company, but I'm not positive.

                        Ryan

                        At 02:03 PM 6/6/01 -0500, you wrote:
                        >I think that Claude has hit on a great idea!!! As a shareholder, we will
                        >have access to detailed information about the company's investments into
                        >renewable energy. I have been suspect of some of these company's claims.
                        >When I tried to asked specific questions, no one answered. I plan to buy
                        >some stock and become a customer and watch what happens. If public demand
                        >increases, then the competition for this area should also increase.
                        >
                        >Please correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that these
                        >guys are merely buying power from other producers. Not that this is bad. It
                        >allows us, as shareholders and customers, to influence where they go to buy.
                        >They are not locked into a plant that they have built or purchased. They may
                        >have long-term contracts, but that is generally shorter than ownership. This
                        >means that they can switch to wind or solar if the shareholders (the owners)
                        >want to do so.
                        >
                        >But it also means that they could be buying electricity from sources that
                        >are not as "green" as I would like them to be. I was never clear how much
                        >green had to be in the mix to allow them to call the entire enchilada
                        >"green." I was never really clear either on what is "green" according to
                        >their definition.
                        >
                        >William M. Bell, Jr.
                        >PO Box 926
                        >Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
                        >wmb@...
                        >Telephone: 713-439-1115
                        >Fax (bus hours only) 281-346-0994
                        >
                        >----- Original Message -----
                        >From: Claude Foster <ccfoster@...>
                        >To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
                        >Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 9:11 AM
                        >Subject: RE: [hreg] Re: Electricity deregulation
                        >
                        >
                        > > If you really want to know how a company is run, buy some of their stock.
                        > > This will put you in the position of directing (a little bit) by voting
                        >how
                        > > the company works.
                        > >
                        > > Electrical costs from conventional plants are going up as fuel cost
                        > > increase. Wind, solar, and hydro, renewable resources, and nuclear require
                        > > high capital expenditure and interest rates for capital are low now. Their
                        > > are slightly more hazards associated with nuclear but the other clean
                        > > sources have some hazards and impacts that have been set aside for a
                        >while.
                        > > This seems to be the best of times to invest capital in energy companies.
                        > > Green Mountain appears to be stepping in the right direction but they also
                        > > need input from their stock holders. Lets speak together.
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Michael Begley
                        I asked them these questions. Here is what they said. The power they put on the grid will be 100% Texas wind power. They have three to six months from the
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 6, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I asked them these questions. Here is what they said.
                          The power they put on the grid will be 100% Texas wind power.
                          They have three to six months from the time you use it to
                          put it on the grid. They have a contract with a 300 Mw west Texas
                          wind farm.
                          So if their customers use power equivalent to a 500 Mw consumption
                          in the summer, but only 100 Mw in the winter, it averages out.
                          I am not sure what they do if they sign up more customers
                          than they have power production.
                          In other states, Green Mountain uses natural gas plants, and
                          a small amount of wind and solar power, but here in Texas,
                          the literature claims it to be 100% renewables. I shall watch
                          and see.

                          >Charlie,
                          >
                          >I was going to wait until after dereg started to even consider switching. Every piece of info I saw stated in the fine print that the prices were only guaranteed until the end of the year. So they aren't committing to anything. I came to the same pricing conclusion that Mike did about Green Mountain, but deferred signing up until I could find out where exactly they had a wind farm, whether they guarantee 100% renewable use, and how much "dirty" system power are they allowed to use in the mix? And heaven only knows what wrench the legislature is going to throw into the process.
                          >
                          >One conclusion that keeps popping into my mind: The less I use, the less I pay. 100% rate of return on conservation.
                          >
                          >My 2 cents.
                          >
                          >James
                          >
                          --
                          --Mike
                        • ChasMauch@aol.com
                          I believe Green Mountain Power was the parent company from which Green Mountain Energy was spun off and became a separate, independent company. GMP is located
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 6, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I believe Green Mountain Power was the parent company from which Green
                            Mountain Energy was spun off and became a separate, independent company. GMP
                            is located in Vermont and gets its energy from a mix of sources including
                            hydro, coal, and nuclear. GME has its office in Austin and uses all wind
                            power. GMP is publicly traded on the stock exchange but unfortunately I think
                            GME is privately held and its stock is not available to the general public.
                            I'm not sure but think that is the case. According to some literature they
                            gave me, you can get more company info from Eleanor Scott 512-691-6316 email
                            eleanor.scott@... or Marci Grossman 512-691-6310 email
                            marci.grossman@.... The website is www.greenmountain.com.
                            Charlie
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