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Car efficiency

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  • J P Malone
    http://www.bloomberg.com/video/63594734/
    Message 1 of 7 , May 21, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
    • Robert Johnston
      So they used carbon fiber and super lightweighting techniques to make a car that runs on fuel cells. Comparing the efficiency of that to a conventionally
      Message 2 of 7 , May 21, 2011
      • 0 Attachment

        So they used carbon fiber and super lightweighting techniques to make a car that runs on fuel cells.  Comparing the efficiency of that to a conventionally built vehicle with an internal combustion engine is comparing apples and oranges.  A more fair comparison would be to the same car with a small efficient internal combustion engine, or a comparison of the fuel cell in a conventional vehicle body to a conventional car.  Otherwise, it is hard to conclude anything about the efficiency of the drive system itself, since the light weight of the vehicle is responsible for much of the efficiency gain.


        Robert

         

        From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
        Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 8:44 AM
        To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [hreg] Car efficiency

         

         

      • J P Malone
        What purpose would any of those configurations serve? The overall goal is to reduce fuel costs & emissions. It seems obvious that any auto manufacturer could
        Message 3 of 7 , May 21, 2011
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          What purpose would any of those configurations serve? The overall goal is to reduce fuel costs & emissions. 

          It seems obvious that any auto manufacturer could reduce the weight of the standard auto, but they choose not to.  Volvo build an extremely lightweight car 30 years ago, it never was released to the public.  I would not hold my breath waiting for the auto companies to solve at  problem their friends in the oil business don’t want solved.

           

          I think the creativity is more to the point.

           

          You are right they are apples vs. oranges.  But we’ve got to get off foreign, polluting “Apples” somehow.  Hopefully, this group will spark some more creative processes that get us there better, faster, cheaper.  Continuous improvement, sparked by competition may eventually get us past the foreign oil/China syndrome, hopefully it won’t be too late.

           

          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
          Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:38 AM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [hreg] Car efficiency

           

           

          So they used carbon fiber and super lightweighting techniques to make a car that runs on fuel cells.  Comparing the efficiency of that to a conventionally built vehicle with an internal combustion engine is comparing apples and oranges.  A more fair comparison would be to the same car with a small efficient internal combustion engine, or a comparison of the fuel cell in a conventional vehicle body to a conventional car.  Otherwise, it is hard to conclude anything about the efficiency of the drive system itself, since the light weight of the vehicle is responsible for much of the efficiency gain.


          Robert

           

          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
          Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 8:44 AM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [hreg] Car efficiency

           

           

        • Tyra Rankin
          Please bring this discussion to CEN s EV event on Tuesday May 24! Engage the experts on a world class panel, including a McKinsey automotive expert from
          Message 4 of 7 , May 21, 2011

          Please bring this discussion to CEN’s EV event on Tuesday May 24!  Engage the experts on a world class panel, including a McKinsey automotive expert from Detroit , Toshiba battery and power conversion specialist, Laura Spanjian, City Director of Sustainability and Mr. Smitherman, Chair of the Texas PUC.  HREG’s own Henry Vadie is Moderator. 

           

          Over 15 EVs secured and organized by Bill Swann, including Tesla, electric Hummer and Porsche.  Test Drive an EV!!

           

          Please register now to enable a head count.  The price is only $16, otherwise $30 at the door.  This event could easily cost $50 - $100!  Don’t miss the opportunity to connect and engage Houston ’s dynamic EV community!!  Learn why Houston is leading the country in EV.

           

          Register at http://cenhoustonev.eventbrite.com/

           

          The Evolution of Vehicles: Electric Vehicles and Houston
           
                           Tuesday, May 24, 2011
                           5601 West Loop South, Houston , TX 77081 (HCC West Loop Campus)
           
          PROGRAM OUTLINE:
                           3-5:00pm: EV showcasing and experiencing (Tesla, Nissan Leaf, GM Volt, Plug-in Toyota Prius, Electric Hummer, Porsche, and more.) - 15+ cars confirmed
                           3-5:00pm: EV test drives (bring your driver's license and proof of insurance)
                           3-5:00pm: Webisodes from Studio Six Ten’s Discovering Green - The history and current use of EV
                           5-7:00pm: Speakers and panel discussion
           
          KEYNOTE SPEAKER AND PANELISTS:
           
                           Chairman Barry Smitherman of the Public Utility Commission of Texas (keynote)
           
                           Russell Hensley, Principal, McKinsey & Co. (panelist)
                           Mark Rayner, Assistant Technology Executive, Toshiba International (panelist)
                           Arun Banskota, President, NRG Electric Vehicle Services/The eVgo Network (panelist)
                           Laura Spanjian, Sustainability Director of Houston , TX (panelist)
                           Dr. Henry Vadie, Former Senior Electric Utility Executive (moderator)
           
          Event link: http://houston.cleaneconomynetwork.org/may-24-2011-evolution-vehicles-electric-vehicles-and-houston--

           

          Map HCC West Loop :  http://www.mapquest.com/maps?name=Houston%20Community%20College&address=5601%20West%20Loop%20S&city=Houston&state=TX&zipcode=77081-2221

           

          Tyra

           


          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
          Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:41 AM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [hreg] Car efficiency

           

           

          What purpose would any of those configurations serve? The overall goal is to reduce fuel costs & emissions. 

          It seems obvious that any auto manufacturer could reduce the weight of the standard auto, but they choose not to.  Volvo build an extremely lightweight car 30 years ago, it never was released to the public.  I would not hold my breath waiting for the auto companies to solve at  problem their friends in the oil business don’t want solved.

           

          I think the creativity is more to the point.

           

          You are right they are apples vs. oranges.  But we’ve got to get off foreign, polluting “Apples” somehow.  Hopefully, this group will spark some more creative processes that get us there better, faster, cheaper.  Continuous improvement, sparked by competition may eventually get us past the foreign oil/China syndrome, hopefully it won’t be too late.

           

          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
          Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:38 AM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [hreg] Car efficiency

           

           

          So they used carbon fiber and super lightweighting techniques to make a car that runs on fuel cells.  Comparing the efficiency of that to a conventionally built vehicle with an internal combustion engine is comparing apples and oranges.  A more fair comparison would be to the same car with a small efficient internal combustion engine, or a comparison of the fuel cell in a conventional vehicle body to a conventional car.  Otherwise, it is hard to conclude anything about the efficiency of the drive system itself, since the light weight of the vehicle is responsible for much of the efficiency gain.


          Robert

           

          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
          Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 8:44 AM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [hreg] Car efficiency

           

           

        • Robert Johnston
          I guess my point is that unless you put the drive in the type of car most people want to drive, then you aren t going to make much of an impact. Those guys say
          Message 5 of 7 , May 21, 2011
          • 0 Attachment

            I guess my point is that unless you put the drive in the type of car most people want to drive, then you aren’t going to make much of an impact.  Those guys say that they hope to be ramped up to full production in a couple years.  Did you hear what that was?  Yeah, 5000 cars per year.  Five thousand!  That’s barely a speck on the seashore.

             

            If you go super lightweight with carbon fiber etc., I’m guessing their cost was higher.  Furthermore, the whole point of the exercise was that they said fuel cell/electric couldn’t generate the kind of power that a conventional ICE does.  That is why they explained all the lightweighting, smaller/thinner tires, etc.  But if you want to haul 3 kids and luggage or groceries or whatever, then you are adding a bunch more weight.  How will it perform then?  I think most people are buying what they buy because it meets their average needs—to haul their families around, carry things from the store, take occasional trips, have some safety factor upon impact, etc.  I am skeptical that they will find that in the car on this video, nor am I convinced the leasing business model with switching capability has legs. 

             

            I’m all for innovation, though, and particular if I don’t have to subsidize dumb mistakes with my tax dollars, I’m eager to see pioneers take chances and help us as a society sort through what works and what doesn’t.  As with the Smart Car (which I contend isn’t that smart next to my Honda Civic, but that’s another discussion), I’m sure there will be a niche market for these vehicles.  I don’t question the broader impact and longterm viability of the model though.

             

            Robert

             

             

            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
            Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:41 AM
            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [hreg] Car efficiency

             

             

            What purpose would any of those configurations serve? The overall goal is to reduce fuel costs & emissions. 

            It seems obvious that any auto manufacturer could reduce the weight of the standard auto, but they choose not to.  Volvo build an extremely lightweight car 30 years ago, it never was released to the public.  I would not hold my breath waiting for the auto companies to solve at  problem their friends in the oil business don’t want solved.

             

            I think the creativity is more to the point.

             

            You are right they are apples vs. oranges.  But we’ve got to get off foreign, polluting “Apples” somehow.  Hopefully, this group will spark some more creative processes that get us there better, faster, cheaper.  Continuous improvement, sparked by competition may eventually get us past the foreign oil/China syndrome, hopefully it won’t be too late.

             

            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
            Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:38 AM
            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [hreg] Car efficiency

             

             

            So they used carbon fiber and super lightweighting techniques to make a car that runs on fuel cells.  Comparing the efficiency of that to a conventionally built vehicle with an internal combustion engine is comparing apples and oranges.  A more fair comparison would be to the same car with a small efficient internal combustion engine, or a comparison of the fuel cell in a conventional vehicle body to a conventional car.  Otherwise, it is hard to conclude anything about the efficiency of the drive system itself, since the light weight of the vehicle is responsible for much of the efficiency gain.


            Robert

             

            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
            Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 8:44 AM
            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [hreg] Car efficiency

             

             

          • kevin conlin
            Looking forward to it, Tyra! Thanks for all your hard work on this event! Kevin Conlin Sun-Stop LLC 13534 Quetzal Lane Houston, TX 77083 281-202-9629
            Message 6 of 7 , May 21, 2011
            • 0 Attachment

              Looking forward to it, Tyra! 

               

              Thanks for all your hard work on this event!

               

               

              Kevin Conlin

              Sun-Stop LLC

              13534 Quetzal Lane

              Houston, TX 77083

              281-202-9629

              kconlin@...

              www.sunstop-usa.com

               

               

               

              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyra Rankin
              Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 4:40 PM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: 'Henry'; 'Dottie And Bill Swann'; 'Chang, Cheng'; 'Houston Chapter'
              Subject: [hreg] EV Event May 24; The Evolution of Vehicles: Electric Vehicles and Houston [1 Attachment]

               

               

              [Attachment(s) from Tyra Rankin included below]

              Please bring this discussion to CEN’s EV event on Tuesday May 24!  Engage the experts on a world class panel, including a McKinsey automotive expert from Detroit, Toshiba battery and power conversion specialist, Laura Spanjian, City Director of Sustainability and Mr. Smitherman, Chair of the Texas PUC.  HREG’s own Henry Vadie is Moderator. 

               

              Over 15 EVs secured and organized by Bill Swann, including Tesla, electric Hummer and Porsche.  Test Drive an EV!!

               

              Please register now to enable a head count.  The price is only $16, otherwise $30 at the door.  This event could easily cost $50 - $100!  Don’t miss the opportunity to connect and engage Houston’s dynamic EV community!!  Learn why Houston is leading the country in EV.

               

              Register at http://cenhoustonev.eventbrite.com/

               

              The Evolution of Vehicles: Electric Vehicles and Houston
               
                               Tuesday, May 24, 2011
                               5601 West Loop South, Houston, TX 77081 (HCC West Loop Campus)
               
              PROGRAM OUTLINE:
                               3-5:00pm: EV showcasing and experiencing (Tesla, Nissan Leaf, GM Volt, Plug-in Toyota Prius, Electric Hummer, Porsche, and more.) - 15+ cars confirmed
                               3-5:00pm: EV test drives (bring your driver's license and proof of insurance)
                               3-5:00pm: Webisodes from Studio Six Ten’s Discovering Green - The history and current use of EV
                               5-7:00pm: Speakers and panel discussion
               
              KEYNOTE SPEAKER AND PANELISTS:
               
                               Chairman Barry Smitherman of the Public Utility Commission of Texas (keynote)
               
                               Russell Hensley, Principal, McKinsey & Co. (panelist)
                               Mark Rayner, Assistant Technology Executive, Toshiba International (panelist)
                               Arun Banskota, President, NRG Electric Vehicle Services/The eVgo Network (panelist)
                               Laura Spanjian, Sustainability Director of Houston, TX (panelist)
                               Dr. Henry Vadie, Former Senior Electric Utility Executive (moderator)
               
              Event link: http://houston.cleaneconomynetwork.org/may-24-2011-evolution-vehicles-electric-vehicles-and-houston--

               

              Map HCC West Loop:  http://www.mapquest.com/maps?name=Houston%20Community%20College&address=5601%20West%20Loop%20S&city=Houston&state=TX&zipcode=77081-2221

               

              Tyra

               


              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
              Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:41 AM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [hreg] Car efficiency

               

               

              What purpose would any of those configurations serve? The overall goal is to reduce fuel costs & emissions. 

              It seems obvious that any auto manufacturer could reduce the weight of the standard auto, but they choose not to.  Volvo build an extremely lightweight car 30 years ago, it never was released to the public.  I would not hold my breath waiting for the auto companies to solve at  problem their friends in the oil business don’t want solved.

               

              I think the creativity is more to the point.

               

              You are right they are apples vs. oranges.  But we’ve got to get off foreign, polluting “Apples” somehow.  Hopefully, this group will spark some more creative processes that get us there better, faster, cheaper.  Continuous improvement, sparked by competition may eventually get us past the foreign oil/China syndrome, hopefully it won’t be too late.

               

              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
              Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:38 AM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [hreg] Car efficiency

               

               

              So they used carbon fiber and super lightweighting techniques to make a car that runs on fuel cells.  Comparing the efficiency of that to a conventionally built vehicle with an internal combustion engine is comparing apples and oranges.  A more fair comparison would be to the same car with a small efficient internal combustion engine, or a comparison of the fuel cell in a conventional vehicle body to a conventional car.  Otherwise, it is hard to conclude anything about the efficiency of the drive system itself, since the light weight of the vehicle is responsible for much of the efficiency gain.


              Robert

               

              From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
              Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 8:44 AM
              To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [hreg] Car efficiency

               

               

            • Robert Johnston
              I just reread my post and see I goofed: the last sentence shouldn t have had don t in it and should read: I question the broader impact and longterm
              Message 7 of 7 , May 22, 2011
              • 0 Attachment

                I just reread my post and see I goofed:  the last sentence shouldn’t have had “don’t” in it and should read:  “I question the broader impact and longterm viability of the model, though.”

                Robert

                 

                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
                Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 6:53 PM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [hreg] Car efficiency

                 

                 

                I guess my point is that unless you put the drive in the type of car most people want to drive, then you aren’t going to make much of an impact.  Those guys say that they hope to be ramped up to full production in a couple years.  Did you hear what that was?  Yeah, 5000 cars per year.  Five thousand!  That’s barely a speck on the seashore.

                 

                If you go super lightweight with carbon fiber etc., I’m guessing their cost was higher.  Furthermore, the whole point of the exercise was that they said fuel cell/electric couldn’t generate the kind of power that a conventional ICE does.  That is why they explained all the lightweighting, smaller/thinner tires, etc.  But if you want to haul 3 kids and luggage or groceries or whatever, then you are adding a bunch more weight.  How will it perform then?  I think most people are buying what they buy because it meets their average needs—to haul their families around, carry things from the store, take occasional trips, have some safety factor upon impact, etc.  I am skeptical that they will find that in the car on this video, nor am I convinced the leasing business model with switching capability has legs. 

                 

                I’m all for innovation, though, and particular if I don’t have to subsidize dumb mistakes with my tax dollars, I’m eager to see pioneers take chances and help us as a society sort through what works and what doesn’t.  As with the Smart Car (which I contend isn’t that smart next to my Honda Civic, but that’s another discussion), I’m sure there will be a niche market for these vehicles.  I don’t question the broader impact and longterm viability of the model though.

                 

                Robert

                 

                 

                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
                Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 11:41 AM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [hreg] Car efficiency

                 

                 

                What purpose would any of those configurations serve? The overall goal is to reduce fuel costs & emissions. 

                It seems obvious that any auto manufacturer could reduce the weight of the standard auto, but they choose not to.  Volvo build an extremely lightweight car 30 years ago, it never was released to the public.  I would not hold my breath waiting for the auto companies to solve at  problem their friends in the oil business don’t want solved.

                 

                I think the creativity is more to the point.

                 

                You are right they are apples vs. oranges.  But we’ve got to get off foreign, polluting “Apples” somehow.  Hopefully, this group will spark some more creative processes that get us there better, faster, cheaper.  Continuous improvement, sparked by competition may eventually get us past the foreign oil/China syndrome, hopefully it won’t be too late.

                 

                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Johnston
                Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 10:38 AM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [hreg] Car efficiency

                 

                 

                So they used carbon fiber and super lightweighting techniques to make a car that runs on fuel cells.  Comparing the efficiency of that to a conventionally built vehicle with an internal combustion engine is comparing apples and oranges.  A more fair comparison would be to the same car with a small efficient internal combustion engine, or a comparison of the fuel cell in a conventional vehicle body to a conventional car.  Otherwise, it is hard to conclude anything about the efficiency of the drive system itself, since the light weight of the vehicle is responsible for much of the efficiency gain.


                Robert

                 

                From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J P Malone
                Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 8:44 AM
                To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [hreg] Car efficiency

                 

                 

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