Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [hreg] Living Off The Grid

Expand Messages
  • Garth & Kim Travis
    Greetings, For one thing, I am rural and on a coop. My cost just to stay connected is close to $30 per month. That is a big deciding factor. Also, I would
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 24, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Greetings,

      For one thing, I am rural and on a coop. My cost just to stay connected
      is close to $30 per month. That is a big deciding factor. Also, I
      would love to get rid of the poles and have the right to put what I
      want, where I want on my land.

      We have no choice about whom we deal with, you get told who you will buy
      your power from in the country. No choice to support a green company.
      I haven't checked lately, but originally, the coops were allowed to opt
      out of having to buy power back. Net metering was not an option, I am
      not sure if that has changed. If it has, they are very quiet about it.

      Bright Blessings,
      Garth & Kim Travis
      www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
      Bedias, Texas
      936-395-0110

      On 1/24/2011 5:47 PM, Russell Warren wrote:
      > Just for curiosity sake, would you be able to explain your main reasons for
      > going completely off the grid, when you are currently grid connected?
      >
      > The reason that I ask is because I feel that it would be more
      > environmentally friendly (never mind the economics) to stay on the grid.
      >
      > I can fully understand wanting to meet your energy needs using renewable
      > sources, and wanting your net usage from centerpoint to be 0.
      >
      > That being said, I would think that sending the extra electrons to your
      > neighbor during peak demand hours (assuming a mostly PV system), would be
      > far more beneficial, than wasting all that extra energy during multiple
      > energy conversions or through resistors (when the batteries are already near
      > fully charged). Also the batteries (which can't last more than 10 years)
      > would have a negative environmental impact.
      >
      > If you replace the cost of the batteries with extra PV modules or other
      > energy efficiency projects, you could sell the extra electricity back to
      > your provider when they need it most.
      > My plan is to switch to the Reliant time of use plan now that my smart meter
      > is up and running, then take advantage of their energy buy back program when
      > I have a PV system installed.
      >
      > I try to keep a pretty open mind, so I am curious to learn something that I
      > might be missing.
      >
      > Thanks
      >
      > Russell
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
      > Garth& Kim Travis
      > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:10 PM
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [hreg] Living Off The Grid
      >
      >
      > Greetings,
      >
      > Now I have figured out how to build affordable water catchments, our
      > plans for going off grid are back on line.
      >
      > Does anyone know what size inverter I need to be able to run my electric
      > stove and dryer. Yes, I do use my clothesline most of the time, but
      > this is Texas, it can rains for weeks straight. Not that we would know
      > by this year.
      >
      > Propane and gas are not alternatives, they make me very sick. Our
      > electric bill without the well is below 400kwh per month, how low I
      > won't know until the new water system is in. I don't notice a
      > difference when I use the stove and the dryer, on our bill.
      > Unfortunately, my watt meter only works for 120, not 240.
      >
      > Bright Blessings,
      > Garth& Kim Travis
      > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
      > Bedias, Texas
      > 936-395-0110
      >
      > On 1/24/2011 1:56 PM, Naveen Selvam wrote:
      >> Hey guys! I wrote an article on basics of how to go off grid in my blog.
      >> check it out http://feelthephoton.blogspot.com
      >>
      >> --
      >> Sincerely,
      >>
      >> Naveen Selvam
      >> (586) 489-0290
      >>
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----
      > No virus found in this message.
      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > Version: 10.0.1202 / Virus Database: 1435/3400 - Release Date: 01/24/11
    • Garth & Kim Travis
      Greetings, Actually, hubby has already set it up so only one fridge or freezer will come on at a time. We figured that out before Ike hit. I have a 2500 watt
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 24, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Greetings,

        Actually, hubby has already set it up so only one fridge or freezer will
        come on at a time. We figured that out before Ike hit. I have a 2500
        watt inverter and a small battery bank that is our emergency backup. We
        will probably peel more stuff off our system, but it is great to hear
        about options.

        Bright Blessings,
        Garth & Kim Travis
        www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
        Bedias, Texas
        936-395-0110

        On 1/24/2011 6:17 PM, John P. Matznick wrote:
        > Microinverters like Enphase are only supposed to work with grid tied
        > customers.
        >
        > Jay is on the right track with the numbers but a more in depth look at
        > ALL appliances and everything that will be running at once would need to
        > be calculated. You need to size your battery bank and PV system to get
        > the correct inverter(s).
        > Since we are RVers, we have a washer/dryer combo that works on 120 VAC.
        > There maybe other appliances you could invest in based on RV living. You
        > can also look into DC type appliances for the oven/stove or look into
        > Induction cook top. Induction is more efficient than regular electric
        > cook tops and they do not burn you hands.
        >
        > Regards
        > *John P. Matznick*
        > Renewable Energy & Sustainability Consultant
        > Green Tech Fusion
        > 888.642.0226
        > www.GreenTechFusion.com <http://www.GreenTechFusion.com/> - Sustainable
        > & Renewable Technologies
        >
      • Russell Warren
        Thanks for the feedback. Those are indeed good reasons. I had figured I was missing something. Without the net metering that would indeed change the
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 24, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          
          Thanks for the feedback.  Those are indeed good reasons.  I had figured I was missing something.  Without the net metering that would indeed change the situation significantly.
          I think the most interesting thing about being off-grid would be the reverse philosophy on actually trying to use most of your electricity during the "summer peak" hours, rather than avoiding it.
           
          Russell
           
           
          -----Original Message-----
          From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Garth & Kim Travis
          Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 6:35 PM
          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [hreg] Living Off The Grid

           

          Greetings,

          For one thing, I am rural and on a coop. My cost just to stay connected
          is close to $30 per month. That is a big deciding factor. Also, I
          would love to get rid of the poles and have the right to put what I
          want, where I want on my land.

          We have no choice about whom we deal with, you get told who you will buy
          your power from in the country. No choice to support a green company.
          I haven't checked lately, but originally, the coops were allowed to opt
          out of having to buy power back. Net metering was not an option, I am
          not sure if that has changed. If it has, they are very quiet about it.

          Bright Blessings,
          Garth & Kim Travis
          www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
          Bedias, Texas
          936-395-0110

          On 1/24/2011 5:47 PM, Russell Warren wrote:
          > Just for curiosity sake, would you be able to explain your main reasons for
          > going completely off the grid, when you are currently grid connected?
          >
          > The reason that I ask is because I feel that it would be more
          > environmentally friendly (never mind the economics) to stay on the grid.
          >
          > I can fully understand wanting to meet your energy needs using renewable
          > sources, and wanting your net usage from centerpoint to be 0.
          >
          > That being said, I would think that sending the extra electrons to your
          > neighbor during peak demand hours (assuming a mostly PV system), would be
          > far more beneficial, than wasting all that extra energy during multiple
          > energy conversions or through resistors (when the batteries are already near
          > fully charged). Also the batteries (which can't last more than 10 years)
          > would have a negative environmental impact.
          >
          > If you replace the cost of the batteries with extra PV modules or other
          > energy efficiency projects, you could sell the extra electricity back to
          > your provider when they need it most.
          > My plan is to switch to the Reliant time of use plan now that my smart meter
          > is up and running, then take advantage of their energy buy back program when
          > I have a PV system installed.
          >
          > I try to keep a pretty open mind, so I am curious to learn something that I
          > might be missing.
          >
          > Thanks
          >
          > Russell
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
          > Garth& Kim Travis
          > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:10 PM
          > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [hreg] Living Off The Grid
          >
          >
          > Greetings,
          >
          > Now I have figured out how to build affordable water catchments, our
          > plans for going off grid are back on line.
          >
          > Does anyone know what size inverter I need to be able to run my electric
          > stove and dryer. Yes, I do use my clothesline most of the time, but
          > this is Texas, it can rains for weeks straight. Not that we would know
          > by this year.
          >
          > Propane and gas are not alternatives, they make me very sick. Our
          > electric bill without the well is below 400kwh per month, how low I
          > won't know until the new water system is in. I don't notice a
          > difference when I use the stove and the dryer, on our bill.
          > Unfortunately, my watt meter only works for 120, not 240.
          >
          > Bright Blessings,
          > Garth& Kim Travis
          > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
          > Bedias, Texas
          > 936-395-0110
          >
          > On 1/24/2011 1:56 PM, Naveen Selvam wrote:
          >> Hey guys! I wrote an article on basics of how to go off grid in my blog.
          >> check it out http://feelthephoton.blogspot.com
          >>
          >> --
          >> Sincerely,
          >>
          >> Naveen Selvam
          >> (586) 489-0290
          >>
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -----
          > No virus found in this message.
          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > Version: 10.0.1202 / Virus Database: 1435/3400 - Release Date: 01/24/11

        • deb lombard
          ... From: Russell Warren Subject: RE: [hreg] Living Off The Grid To: hreg@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 8:43 PM  
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 24, 2011
          • 0 Attachment


            --- On Mon, 1/24/11, Russell Warren <russellrwarren@...> wrote:

            From: Russell Warren <russellrwarren@...>
            Subject: RE: [hreg] Living Off The Grid
            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 8:43 PM

             
            
            Thanks for the feedback.  Those are indeed good reasons.  I had figured I was missing something.  Without the net metering that would indeed change the situation significantly.
            I think the most interesting thing about being off-grid would be the reverse philosophy on actually trying to use most of your electricity during the "summer peak" hours, rather than avoiding it.
             
            Russell
             
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Garth & Kim Travis
            Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 6:35 PM
            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [hreg] Living Off The Grid

             
            Greetings,

            For one thing, I am rural and on a coop. My cost just to stay connected
            is close to $30 per month. That is a big deciding factor. Also, I
            would love to get rid of the poles and have the right to put what I
            want, where I want on my land.

            We have no choice about whom we deal with, you get told who you will buy
            your power from in the country. No choice to support a green company.
            I haven't checked lately, but originally, the coops were allowed to opt
            out of having to buy power back. Net metering was not an option, I am
            not sure if that has changed. If it has, they are very quiet about it.

            Bright Blessings,
            Garth & Kim Travis
            www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
            Bedias, Texas
            936-395-0110

            On 1/24/2011 5:47 PM, Russell Warren wrote:
            > Just for curiosity sake, would you be able to explain your main reasons for
            > going completely off the grid, when you are currently grid connected?
            >
            > The reason that I ask is because I feel that it would be more
            > environmentally friendly (never mind the economics) to stay on the grid.
            >
            > I can fully understand wanting to meet your energy needs using renewable
            > sources, and wanting your net usage from centerpoint to be 0.
            >
            > That being said, I would think that sending the extra electrons to your
            > neighbor during peak demand hours (assuming a mostly PV system), would be
            > far more beneficial, than wasting all that extra energy during multiple
            > energy conversions or through resistors (when the batteries are already near
            > fully charged). Also the batteries (which can't last more than 10 years)
            > would have a negative environmental impact.
            >
            > If you replace the cost of the batteries with extra PV modules or other
            > energy efficiency projects, you could sell the extra electricity back to
            > your provider when they need it most.
            > My plan is to switch to the Reliant time of use plan now that my smart meter
            > is up and running, then take advantage of their energy buy back program when
            > I have a PV system installed.
            >
            > I try to keep a pretty open mind, so I am curious to learn something that I
            > might be missing.
            >
            > Thanks
            >
            > Russell
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
            > Garth& Kim Travis
            > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:10 PM
            > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [hreg] Living Off The Grid
            >
            >
            > Greetings,
            >
            > Now I have figured out how to build affordable water catchments, our
            > plans for going off grid are back on line.
            >
            > Does anyone know what size inverter I need to be able to run my electric
            > stove and dryer. Yes, I do use my clothesline most of the time, but
            > this is Texas, it can rains for weeks straight. Not that we would know
            > by this year.
            >
            > Propane and gas are not alternatives, they make me very sick. Our
            > electric bill without the well is below 400kwh per month, how low I
            > won't know until the new water system is in. I don't notice a
            > difference when I use the stove and the dryer, on our bill.
            > Unfortunately, my watt meter only works for 120, not 240.
            >
            > Bright Blessings,
            > Garth& Kim Travis
            > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
            > Bedias, Texas
            > 936-395-0110
            >
            > On 1/24/2011 1:56 PM, Naveen Selvam wrote:
            >> Hey guys! I wrote an article on basics of how to go off grid in my blog.
            >> check it out http://feelthephoton.blogspot.com
            >>
            >> --
            >> Sincerely,
            >>
            >> Naveen Selvam
            >> (586) 489-0290
            >>
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----
            > No virus found in this message.
            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > Version: 10.0.1202 / Virus Database: 1435/3400 - Release Date: 01/24/11

          • Garth & Kim Travis
            Greetings, I am a farmer, when the sun is down, I am asleep most of the year. But yes, we do use most of our power when the sun is up. However,I have wind
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 25, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Greetings,
              I am a farmer, when the sun is down, I am asleep most of the year. But
              yes, we do use most of our power when the sun is up. However,I have
              wind here, so I would put in a hybrid system.

              Bright Blessings,
              Garth & Kim Travis
              www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
              Bedias, Texas
              936-395-0110

              On 1/24/2011 7:43 PM, Russell Warren wrote:
              > 
              >
              > Thanks for the feedback. Those are indeed good reasons. I had figured I
              > was missing something. Without the net metering that would indeed change
              > the situation significantly.
              > I think the most interesting thing about being off-grid would be the
              > reverse philosophy on actually trying to use most of your electricity
              > during the "summer peak" hours, rather than avoiding it.
              > Russell
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > *From:* hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com]*On Behalf
              > Of *Garth & Kim Travis
              > *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2011 6:35 PM
              > *To:* hreg@yahoogroups.com
              > *Subject:* Re: [hreg] Living Off The Grid
              >
              > Greetings,
              >
              > For one thing, I am rural and on a coop. My cost just to stay connected
              > is close to $30 per month. That is a big deciding factor. Also, I
              > would love to get rid of the poles and have the right to put what I
              > want, where I want on my land.
              >
              > We have no choice about whom we deal with, you get told who you will
              > buy
              > your power from in the country. No choice to support a green company.
              > I haven't checked lately, but originally, the coops were allowed to opt
              > out of having to buy power back. Net metering was not an option, I am
              > not sure if that has changed. If it has, they are very quiet about it.
              >
              > Bright Blessings,
              > Garth & Kim Travis
              > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
              > Bedias, Texas
              > 936-395-0110
              >
              > On 1/24/2011 5:47 PM, Russell Warren wrote:
              > > Just for curiosity sake, would you be able to explain your main
              > reasons for
              > > going completely off the grid, when you are currently grid connected?
              > >
              > > The reason that I ask is because I feel that it would be more
              > > environmentally friendly (never mind the economics) to stay on
              > the grid.
              > >
              > > I can fully understand wanting to meet your energy needs using
              > renewable
              > > sources, and wanting your net usage from centerpoint to be 0.
              > >
              > > That being said, I would think that sending the extra electrons
              > to your
              > > neighbor during peak demand hours (assuming a mostly PV system),
              > would be
              > > far more beneficial, than wasting all that extra energy during
              > multiple
              > > energy conversions or through resistors (when the batteries are
              > already near
              > > fully charged). Also the batteries (which can't last more than 10
              > years)
              > > would have a negative environmental impact.
              > >
              > > If you replace the cost of the batteries with extra PV modules or
              > other
              > > energy efficiency projects, you could sell the extra electricity
              > back to
              > > your provider when they need it most.
              > > My plan is to switch to the Reliant time of use plan now that my
              > smart meter
              > > is up and running, then take advantage of their energy buy back
              > program when
              > > I have a PV system installed.
              > >
              > > I try to keep a pretty open mind, so I am curious to learn
              > something that I
              > > might be missing.
              > >
              > > Thanks
              > >
              > > Russell
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hreg%40yahoogroups.com>
              > [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hreg%40yahoogroups.com>]On
              > Behalf Of
              > > Garth& Kim Travis
              > > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:10 PM
              > > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hreg%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > Subject: Re: [hreg] Living Off The Grid
              > >
              > >
              > > Greetings,
              > >
              > > Now I have figured out how to build affordable water catchments, our
              > > plans for going off grid are back on line.
              > >
              > > Does anyone know what size inverter I need to be able to run my
              > electric
              > > stove and dryer. Yes, I do use my clothesline most of the time, but
              > > this is Texas, it can rains for weeks straight. Not that we would
              > know
              > > by this year.
              > >
              > > Propane and gas are not alternatives, they make me very sick. Our
              > > electric bill without the well is below 400kwh per month, how low I
              > > won't know until the new water system is in. I don't notice a
              > > difference when I use the stove and the dryer, on our bill.
              > > Unfortunately, my watt meter only works for 120, not 240.
              > >
              > > Bright Blessings,
              > > Garth& Kim Travis
              > > www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
              > > Bedias, Texas
              > > 936-395-0110
              > >
              > > On 1/24/2011 1:56 PM, Naveen Selvam wrote:
              > >> Hey guys! I wrote an article on basics of how to go off grid in
              > my blog.
              > >> check it out http://feelthephoton.blogspot.com
              > >>
              > >> --
              > >> Sincerely,
              > >>
              > >> Naveen Selvam
              > >> (586) 489-0290
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > -----
              > > No virus found in this message.
              > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > > Version: 10.0.1202 / Virus Database: 1435/3400 - Release Date:
              > 01/24/11
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              > No virus found in this message.
              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
              > Version: 10.0.1202 / Virus Database: 1435/3400 - Release Date: 01/24/11
              >
            • Garth & Kim Travis
              Greetings, There is a tab at the bottom of this page that will let you unsubscribe yourself. If you are having a problem, then please send me your user name
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 25, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Greetings,
                There is a tab at the bottom of this page that will let you unsubscribe
                yourself. If you are having a problem, then please send me your user
                name for yahoo, there are far too many members of this list to find
                members any other way.

                Bright Blessings,
                Garth & Kim Travis
                www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                Bedias, Texas
                936-395-0110
              • Andrea Wisner
                Russell mentioned Reliant time of use plan below. I am interested in knowing what other companies provide this option.   We are with Green Mountain Energy
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 25, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Russell mentioned "Reliant time of use plan" below. I am interested in knowing what other companies provide this option.
                   
                  We are with Green Mountain Energy and I notice that they charge more per kwh when usage drops below 1000 kwh/month. This bothers me, especially since our usage is usually below, and sometimes on the border so theoretically we would be tempted to increase our power usage in order to get the lower rate and possibly pay less for using more. This system is a bit shameful for a "green" company, and we are looking into changing since our contract period just ended.
                   
                  TIA for any information. Thanks Russell for mentioning this.
                   
                  Andrea

                  --- On Mon, 1/24/11, Russell Warren <russellrwarren@...> wrote:

                  From: Russell Warren <russellrwarren@...>
                  Subject: RE: [hreg] Living Off The Grid
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 6:47 PM

                  Just for curiosity sake, would you be able to explain your main reasons for
                  going completely off the grid, when you are currently grid connected?

                  The reason that I ask is because I feel that it would be more
                  environmentally friendly (never mind the economics) to stay on the grid.

                  I can fully understand wanting to meet your energy needs using renewable
                  sources, and wanting your net usage from centerpoint to be 0.

                  That being said, I would think that sending the extra electrons to your
                  neighbor during peak demand hours (assuming a mostly PV system), would be
                  far more beneficial, than wasting all that extra energy during multiple
                  energy conversions or through resistors (when the batteries are already near
                  fully charged).  Also the batteries (which can't last more than 10 years)
                  would have a negative environmental impact.

                  If you replace the cost of the batteries with extra PV modules or other
                  energy efficiency projects, you could sell the extra electricity back to
                  your provider when they need it most.
                  My plan is to switch to the Reliant time of use plan now that my smart meter
                  is up and running, then take advantage of their energy buy back program when
                  I have a PV system installed.

                  I try to keep a pretty open mind, so I am curious to learn something that I
                  might be missing.

                  Thanks

                  Russell

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                  Garth & Kim Travis
                  Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:10 PM
                  To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [hreg] Living Off The Grid


                  Greetings,

                  Now I have figured out how to build affordable water catchments, our
                  plans for going off grid are back on line.

                  Does anyone know what size inverter I need to be able to run my electric
                  stove and dryer.  Yes, I do use my clothesline most of the time, but
                  this is Texas, it can rains for weeks straight.  Not that we would know
                  by this year.

                  Propane and gas are not alternatives, they make me very sick.  Our
                  electric bill without the well is below 400kwh per month, how low I
                  won't know until the new water system is in.  I don't notice a
                  difference when I use the stove and the dryer, on our bill.
                  Unfortunately, my watt meter only works for 120, not 240.

                  Bright Blessings,
                  Garth & Kim Travis
                  www.TheRoseColoredForest.com
                  Bedias, Texas
                  936-395-0110

                  On 1/24/2011 1:56 PM, Naveen Selvam wrote:
                  > Hey guys! I wrote an article on basics of how to go off grid in my blog.
                  > check it out http://feelthephoton.blogspot.com
                  >
                  > --
                  > Sincerely,
                  >
                  > Naveen Selvam
                  > (586) 489-0290
                  >


                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hreg/

                  <*> Your email settings:
                      Individual Email | Traditional

                  <*> To change settings online go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hreg/join
                      (Yahoo! ID required)

                  <*> To change settings via email:
                      hreg-digest@yahoogroups.com
                      hreg-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      hreg-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                • Gary Beck
                  *This is a good topic for adding my 2 cents (or by the length of it 200 cents).* Even if you can not get completely off the grid, it is good to plan to do so.
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 8, 2011
                  This is a good topic for adding my 2 cents (or by the length of it 200 cents). 
                   
                  Even if you can not get completely off the grid, it is good to plan to do so. Maybe the worse you can do is be grid connected while hitting net-zero energy in annualized energy consumption.
                   
                  It starts with design to get the energy signature as low as possible. Then buy the right appliances, HVAC, and lighting, and stir in a nice solar array.  
                   
                  To simplify one design concept I suggested adopting a 'GSF' term a few years ago in an residential low energy design presentation (you can still see it on Youtube at (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e59RJHLbbg). 
                   
                  In that presentation I defined 'GSF' as Green Square Feet, to be priced and sold by builders and realtors, in lieu of 'old and out of touch' SF. You can quickly see the concept in the attached image - nothing complicated - sort of like your grandmas farm house built by George Jetson.
                   
                  Then on this past Sunday I read Molly Glentzer and Kathy Huber’s February 6 2011 Houston Chronicle article about how big name Realtors like Martha Turner and Builders like David Weekly actually confirming that today's knowledgable 'buyers prefer smaller smarter homes'.  This is big news.  I hope Martha starts promoting 'GSF'.
                   
                  This mainstream article has done Architects and Home Designers a BIG favor!  They have let them off the hook by providing the ‘facts’ that the trendiest of trends is towards smaller smarter homes.  Whew! No they can start designing instead of just drawing bigger and bigger McMansions! (Here is a link to the Chronicle article in case you missed it - http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/main/7411740.html)

                   

                  In case you the link does not work, here are the key bullet points gleaned from Molly and Kathy’s article.   These points are worth repeating.

                   

                  Houston real estate agents, builders, architects and interior designers consistently, indicate that –

                  o   Want a casual, comfortable, convenient lifestyle that's both budget- and environmentally conscious

                  o   Smaller, smarter rooms

                  o   Bigger isn't better anymore, even if you can afford it.

                  o   Compact square footage with rooms that can serve more than one purpose. It's environmentally friendly and less tax," (Martha Turner of Martha Turner Properties!).

                  o   "People have realized that all the space in the world isn't the answer to happiness, nor is it prudent." (again from Martha Turner of Martha Turner Properties – she gets it!)

                  o   Where 10,000-square-foot homes are common. In that arena, 5,000 square feet is suddenly desirable.

                  o   Rooms need to multitask, just like their owners.

                  o   Buyers are more likely to want that square footage devoted to a media-filled gathering space.

                  o   People are more likely to work from home at least some of the time, so home offices are an asset, too.

                  o   "We were just trying to have a simpler life, with less stuff,"

                  o   A downstairs seating area doubles as exhibit space for local artists, and the dining area, with a table that seats up to 14 people, is a work space by day.

                  o   The smartest room of all these days in many new homes is the kitchen

                  o   Large, open kitchen-family room is a "must-must-must," with a corner for kids to do their homework and an informal dining area.

                  o   A conventional range and a convection oven are mandatory, and some home buyers request two dishwashers."

                  o   Free-standing tubs and showers with myriad water features.

                  o   "Every person who can afford it wants a separate toilet,"

                  o   "Water closets are a real premium, even if you have a shared bath."

                  o   There's no end to the number of TVs people want in the house, They slap them up like postage stamps."

                  o   Integrated technology - Wi-Fi, special lighting and other electronics - woven into the house,

                  o   Garage and pantry storage are also important. "Costco closet" for all the household products she buys in bulk.

                  o   Energy efficiency is both a budget and environmental issue. It's high on priority lists.

                  o   Upgraded insulation cost more up front but reduce energy costs long-term, she said. The key phrase is "over time."

                  o   Better sealing, better insulation, tankless water heaters, metal air ducts, solid core windows and doors and exterior materials impervious to fire and weather.

                  o   Trading indoor square footage for large outdoor living spaces. Outdoor kitchens, pools and fireplaces may seem like a splurge.

                  o   The ideal space for many includes a covered area for a flat-screen TV. Families like them as a place to play games like Wii together.

                  o   Tile and wood floors now over carpeting. "They're easier to keep. Wood wears and matures; carpet wears and gets dirty,"

                  o   Expect homes to continue to shrink - because prices and taxes won't.

                  o   People will be able to clean their own houses."

                  o   The era of the McMansion is over.

                   

                  Way to go Molly and Kathy!

                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                • Jay Ring
                  Thanks for the article, and for your comments, Gary. I thought I would chime in with some of my own thoughts: Bigger isn t better, even if you can afford it.
                  Message 9 of 29 , Feb 9, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks for the article, and for your comments, Gary.

                    I thought I would chime in with some of my own thoughts:


                    Bigger isn't better, even if you can afford it.

                    Somewhat agree, but disagree in the general case.

                    It's not universally true that bigger or smaller is better.  There is a "right size" that depends on each person/family.

                    Even when a room exists only to provide luxury I am not against it.  You should love your house.  Just don't have a bunch of empty rooms that you never use.  Be sure that everything was intelligently designed and exists for a purpose, not just added on without thought.

                    Rooms need to multitask, just like their owners

                    Disagree with some exceptions.

                    I don't like the idea of multi-tasking in rooms.  You spend too much time setting up and breaking down.  It's much more convenient to set it up and leave it that way.

                    In the article, they use the example of a dining room that they use as a work space.  That may work for them, but for the type of work I do at home, that is a nightmare.  I have several computers, soldering equipment, electrochemical etching, an oscilloscope, signal generators, etc.  The solder in particular, can destroy a dining room table.  I also like to garden, this means buckets of dirt, packets of seed, and muddy footprints heading to the outside.  These tasks cry out for dedicated, specialized space, with everything set up and ready to go.  While any one persons specific activities may vary, the concept remains the same in a variety of cases.

                    In the general case, some rooms should be set up for specific purposes, while others should be general purpose and reconfigurable for special events.  But if you are setting up and a space and then breaking it down again every day ("multi-tasking"), you are doing something wrong. 

                    I agree with most of the other stuff.  Good food for thought.




                    --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Gary Beck <ecoegr@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > *This is a good topic for adding my 2 cents (or by the length of it 200
                    > cents).*
                    >
                    > Even if you can not get completely off the grid, it is good to plan to do
                    > so. Maybe the worse you can do is be grid connected while hitting net-zero
                    > energy in annualized energy consumption.
                    >
                    > It starts with design to get the energy signature as low as possible. Then
                    > buy the right appliances, HVAC, and lighting, and stir in a nice solar
                    > array.
                    >
                    > To simplify one design concept I suggested adopting a 'GSF' term a few years
                    > ago in an residential low energy design presentation (you can still see it
                    > on Youtube at (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e59RJHLbbg).
                    >
                    > In that presentation I defined 'GSF' as Green Square Feet, to be priced and
                    > sold by builders and realtors, in lieu of 'old and out of touch' SF. You can
                    > quickly see the concept in the attached image - nothing complicated - sort
                    > of like your grandmas farm house built by George Jetson.
                    >
                    > Then on this past Sunday I read Molly Glentzer and Kathy Huber's February 6
                    > 2011 Houston Chronicle article about how big name Realtors like Martha
                    > Turner and Builders like David Weekly actually confirming that today's
                    > knowledgable 'buyers prefer smaller smarter homes'. This is big news. I
                    > hope Martha starts promoting 'GSF'.
                    >
                    > This mainstream article has done Architects and Home Designers a BIG favor!
                    > They have let them off the hook by providing the `facts' that the trendiest
                    > of trends is towards smaller smarter homes. Whew! No they can start
                    > designing instead of just drawing bigger and bigger McMansions! (Here is a
                    > link to the Chronicle article in case you missed it -
                    > http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/main/7411740.html)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In case you the link does not work, here are the key bullet points gleaned
                    > from Molly and Kathy's article. These points are worth repeating.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > *Houston real estate agents, builders, architects and interior designers
                    > consistently, indicate that – *
                    >
                    > o *Want a casual, comfortable, convenient lifestyle that's both budget-
                    > and environmentally conscious*
                    >
                    > o *Smaller, smarter rooms*
                    >
                    > o *Bigger isn't better anymore, even if you can afford it.*
                    >
                    > o *Compact square footage with rooms that can serve more than one purpose.
                    > It's environmentally friendly and less tax," (Martha Turner of Martha Turner
                    > Properties!). *
                    >
                    > o *"People have realized that all the space in the world isn't the answer
                    > to happiness, nor is it prudent." (again from Martha Turner of Martha Turner
                    > Properties – she gets it!)*
                    >
                    > o *Where 10,000-square-foot homes are common. In that arena, 5,000 square
                    > feet is suddenly desirable.*
                    >
                    > o *Rooms need to multitask, just like their owners.*
                    >
                    > o *Buyers are more likely to want that square footage devoted to a
                    > media-filled gathering space.*
                    >
                    > o *People are more likely to work from home at least some of the time, so
                    > home offices are an asset, too.*
                    >
                    > o *"We were just trying to have a simpler life, with less stuff," *
                    >
                    > o *A downstairs seating area doubles as exhibit space for local artists,
                    > and the dining area, with a table that seats up to 14 people, is a work
                    > space by day.*
                    >
                    > o *The smartest room of all these days in many new homes is the kitchen*
                    >
                    > o *Large, open kitchen-family room is a "must-must-must," with a corner
                    > for kids to do their homework and an informal dining area. *
                    >
                    > o *A conventional range and a convection oven are mandatory, and some home
                    > buyers request two dishwashers."*
                    >
                    > o *Free-standing tubs and showers with myriad water features. *
                    >
                    > o *"Every person who can afford it wants a separate toilet," *
                    >
                    > o *"Water closets are a real premium, even if you have a shared bath."*
                    >
                    > o *There's no end to the number of TVs people want in the house, They slap
                    > them up like postage stamps." *
                    >
                    > o *Integrated technology - Wi-Fi, special lighting and other electronics -
                    > woven into the house, *
                    >
                    > o *Garage and pantry storage are also important. "Costco closet" for all
                    > the household products she buys in bulk.*
                    >
                    > o *Energy efficiency is both a budget and environmental issue. It's high
                    > on priority lists.*
                    >
                    > o *Upgraded insulation cost more up front but reduce energy costs
                    > long-term, she said. The key phrase is "over time." *
                    >
                    > o *Better sealing, better insulation, tankless water heaters, metal air
                    > ducts, solid core windows and doors and exterior materials impervious to
                    > fire and weather.*
                    >
                    > o *Trading indoor square footage for large outdoor living spaces. Outdoor
                    > kitchens, pools and fireplaces may seem like a splurge. *
                    >
                    > o *The ideal space for many includes a covered area for a flat-screen TV.
                    > Families like them as a place to play games like Wii together.*
                    >
                    > o *Tile and wood floors now over carpeting. "They're easier to keep. Wood
                    > wears and matures; carpet wears and gets dirty,"*
                    >
                    > o *Expect homes to continue to shrink - because prices and taxes won't. *
                    >
                    > o *People will be able to clean their own houses." *
                    >
                    > *o The era of the McMansion is over.*
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Way to go Molly and Kathy!
                    >
                  • Gary Beck
                    Breaking it down also sounds a little drastic. We are not talking about daily conversions or a Transformer house. Not rocket science - just designing to
                    Message 10 of 29 , Feb 9, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment

                      'Breaking it down' also sounds a little drastic. We are not talking about daily conversions or a 'Transformer' house. Not rocket science - just designing to the task.  

                       

                      I don't think many people plan to solder and re-pot plants in their kitchen.  Maybe some seedling, but not the ferns.  But they could do each in a multitasking garage with a well-designed in work area.  Multitasking happens in every room of every house.  It would work much better if each room or area were designed to do specific multitasks better.

                       

                      Good designers know It is more about understanding flow and also placing things where people need them to be. This might be a nook desk in the kitchen area for all the tasks we need to do associated with and during food preparation. Plus it is a place to set up 'junior' to do homework while parents cook. Maybe it is placing a floor plug to connect into a 'wired' kitchen table so it has an outlet under a nicely decorated flush brass plate to plug in a wok or plug in a laptop without tripping over the cables,… or a reading nook designed into a stairwell landing, or a bathroom that detects high humidity and vents it…the list goes on and on. 

                       

                      The point is that if you choose to design a sleek good looking super insulated smart operating smaller (not tiny!) home, you can create the opportunity to go net-zero energy on an annualized basis.  If you design a large home, the simple kW/sf will quickly get you off that net-zero possibility.    

                       

                       

                      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Ring
                      Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 10:21 AM
                      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [hreg] Re: Living Off The Grid

                       

                       

                      Thanks for the article, and for your comments, Gary.

                       

                      I thought I would chime in with some of my own thoughts:

                       

                       

                      Bigger isn't better, even if you can afford it.

                       

                      Somewhat agree, but disagree in the general case.

                       

                      It's not universally true that bigger or smaller is better.  There is a "right size" that depends on each person/family.

                       

                      Even when a room exists only to provide luxury I am not against it.  You should love your house.  Just don't have a bunch of empty rooms that you never use.  Be sure that everything was intelligently designed and exists for a purpose, not just added on without thought.

                       

                      Rooms need to multitask, just like their owners

                       

                      Disagree with some exceptions.

                       

                      I don't like the idea of multi-tasking in rooms.  You spend too much time setting up and breaking down.  It's much more convenient to set it up and leave it that way.

                       

                      In the article, they use the example of a dining room that they use as a work space.  That may work for them, but for the type of work I do at home, that is a nightmare.  I have several computers, soldering equipment, electrochemical etching, an oscilloscope, signal generators, etc.  The solder in particular, can destroy a dining room table.  I also like to garden, this means buckets of dirt, packets of seed, and muddy footprints heading to the outside.  These tasks cry out for dedicated, specialized space, with everything set up and ready to go.  While any one persons specific activities may vary, the concept remains the same in a variety of cases.

                       

                      In the general case, some rooms should be set up for specific purposes, while others should be general purpose and reconfigurable for special events.  But if you are setting up and a space and then breaking it down again every day ("multi-tasking"), you are doing something wrong. 

                       

                      I agree with most of the other stuff.  Good food for thought.

                       

                       

                       

                       

                      --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Gary Beck <ecoegr@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > *This is a good topic for adding my 2 cents (or by the length of it 200
                      > cents).*
                      >
                      > Even if you can not get completely off the grid, it is good to plan to do
                      > so. Maybe the worse you can do is be grid connected while hitting net-zero
                      > energy in annualized energy consumption.
                      >
                      > It starts with design to get the energy signature as low as possible. Then
                      > buy the right appliances, HVAC, and lighting, and stir in a nice solar
                      > array.
                      >
                      > To simplify one design concept I suggested adopting a 'GSF' term a few years
                      > ago in an residential low energy design presentation (you can still see it
                      > on Youtube at (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e59RJHLbbg).
                      >
                      > In that presentation I defined 'GSF' as Green Square Feet, to be priced and
                      > sold by builders and realtors, in lieu of 'old and out of touch' SF. You can
                      > quickly see the concept in the attached image - nothing complicated - sort
                      > of like your grandmas farm house built by George Jetson.
                      >
                      > Then on this past Sunday I read Molly Glentzer and Kathy Huber's February 6
                      > 2011 Houston Chronicle article about how big name Realtors like Martha
                      > Turner and Builders like David Weekly actually confirming that today's
                      > knowledgable 'buyers prefer smaller smarter homes'. This is big news. I
                      > hope Martha starts promoting 'GSF'.
                      >
                      > This mainstream article has done Architects and Home Designers a BIG favor!
                      > They have let them off the hook by providing the `facts' that the trendiest
                      > of trends is towards smaller smarter homes. Whew! No they can start
                      > designing instead of just drawing bigger and bigger McMansions! (Here is a
                      > link to the Chronicle article in case you missed it -
                      > http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/main/7411740.html)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > In case you the link does not work, here are the key bullet points gleaned
                      > from Molly and Kathy's article. These points are worth repeating.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > *Houston real estate agents, builders, architects and interior designers
                      > consistently, indicate that – *
                      >
                      > o *Want a casual, comfortable, convenient lifestyle that's both budget-
                      > and environmentally conscious*
                      >
                      > o *Smaller, smarter rooms*
                      >
                      > o *Bigger isn't better anymore, even if you can afford it.*
                      >
                      > o *Compact square footage with rooms that can serve more than one purpose.
                      > It's environmentally friendly and less tax," (Martha Turner of Martha Turner
                      > Properties!). *
                      >
                      > o *"People have realized that all the space in the world isn't the answer
                      > to happiness, nor is it prudent." (again from Martha Turner of Martha Turner
                      > Properties – she gets it!)*
                      >
                      > o *Where 10,000-square-foot homes are common. In that arena, 5,000 square
                      > feet is suddenly desirable.*
                      >
                      > o *Rooms need to multitask, just like their owners.*
                      >
                      > o *Buyers are more likely to want that square footage devoted to a
                      > media-filled gathering space.*
                      >
                      > o *People are more likely to work from home at least some of the time, so
                      > home offices are an asset, too.*
                      >
                      > o *"We were just trying to have a simpler life, with less stuff," *
                      >
                      > o *A downstairs seating area doubles as exhibit space for local artists,
                      > and the dining area, with a table that seats up to 14 people, is a work
                      > space by day.*
                      >
                      > o *The smartest room of all these days in many new homes is the kitchen*
                      >
                      > o *Large, open kitchen-family room is a "must-must-must," with a corner
                      > for kids to do their homework and an informal dining area. *
                      >
                      > o *A conventional range and a convection oven are mandatory, and some home
                      > buyers request two dishwashers."*
                      >
                      > o *Free-standing tubs and showers with myriad water features. *
                      >
                      > o *"Every person who can afford it wants a separate toilet," *
                      >
                      > o *"Water closets are a real premium, even if you have a shared bath."*
                      >
                      > o *There's no end to the number of TVs people want in the house, They slap
                      > them up like postage stamps." *
                      >
                      > o *Integrated technology - Wi-Fi, special lighting and other electronics -
                      > woven into the house, *
                      >
                      > o *Garage and pantry storage are also important. "Costco closet" for all
                      > the household products she buys in bulk.*
                      >
                      > o *Energy efficiency is both a budget and environmental issue. It's high
                      > on priority lists.*
                      >
                      > o *Upgraded insulation cost more up front but reduce energy costs
                      > long-term, she said. The key phrase is "over time." *
                      >
                      > o *Better sealing, better insulation, tankless water heaters, metal air
                      > ducts, solid core windows and doors and exterior materials impervious to
                      > fire and weather.*
                      >
                      > o *Trading indoor square footage for large outdoor living spaces. Outdoor
                      > kitchens, pools and fireplaces may seem like a splurge. *
                      >
                      > o *The ideal space for many includes a covered area for a flat-screen TV.
                      > Families like them as a place to play games like Wii together.*
                      >
                      > o *Tile and wood floors now over carpeting. "They're easier to keep. Wood
                      > wears and matures; carpet wears and gets dirty,"*
                      >
                      > o *Expect homes to continue to shrink - because prices and taxes won't. *
                      >
                      > o *People will be able to clean their own houses." *
                      >
                      > *o The era of the McMansion is over.*
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Way to go Molly and Kathy!
                      >

                    • Jay Ring
                      I am not saying that your previous points are wrong for you. Only that they are not necessarily true for everyone. A house is a very personal thing. If it
                      Message 11 of 29 , Feb 10, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I am not saying that your previous points are wrong for you.  Only that they are not necessarily true for everyone.  A house is a very personal thing.  If it works for you, that's great.  It doesn't work for me.

                        It is not the case that large houses can't be made net-zero.  A 2000 sq foot house has 2000 sq feet of roof.  A 4000 square foot house has 4000 square feet of roof.  It's the ratio of roof space to living space that affects your ability to offset your energy use (assuming PV).

                        What kills your ability to get to zero is adding a addition levels.  Extra levels add square feet of living space without adding extra roof space.  Even then you could use pole mount PV outside.



                        --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Beck" <ecoegr@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > 'Breaking it down' also sounds a little drastic. We are not talking about
                        > daily conversions or a 'Transformer' house. Not rocket science - just
                        > designing to the task.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I don't think many people plan to solder and re-pot plants in their kitchen.
                        > Maybe some seedling, but not the ferns. But they could do each in a
                        > multitasking garage with a well-designed in work area. Multitasking happens
                        > in every room of every house. It would work much better if each room or
                        > area were designed to do specific multitasks better.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Good designers know It is more about understanding flow and also placing
                        > things where people need them to be. This might be a nook desk in the
                        > kitchen area for all the tasks we need to do associated with and during food
                        > preparation. Plus it is a place to set up 'junior' to do homework while
                        > parents cook. Maybe it is placing a floor plug to connect into a 'wired'
                        > kitchen table so it has an outlet under a nicely decorated flush brass plate
                        > to plug in a wok or plug in a laptop without tripping over the cables,. or a
                        > reading nook designed into a stairwell landing, or a bathroom that detects
                        > high humidity and vents it.the list goes on and on.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The point is that if you choose to design a sleek good looking super
                        > insulated smart operating smaller (not tiny!) home, you can create the
                        > opportunity to go net-zero energy on an annualized basis. If you design a
                        > large home, the simple kW/sf will quickly get you off that net-zero
                        > possibility.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay
                        > Ring
                        > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 10:21 AM
                        > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [hreg] Re: Living Off The Grid
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks for the article, and for your comments, Gary.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I thought I would chime in with some of my own thoughts:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Bigger isn't better, even if you can afford it.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Somewhat agree, but disagree in the general case.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > It's not universally true that bigger or smaller is better. There is a
                        > "right size" that depends on each person/family.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Even when a room exists only to provide luxury I am not against it. You
                        > should love your house. Just don't have a bunch of empty rooms that you
                        > never use. Be sure that everything was intelligently designed and exists
                        > for a purpose, not just added on without thought.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Rooms need to multitask, just like their owners
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Disagree with some exceptions.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I don't like the idea of multi-tasking in rooms. You spend too much time
                        > setting up and breaking down. It's much more convenient to set it up and
                        > leave it that way.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > In the article, they use the example of a dining room that they use as a
                        > work space. That may work for them, but for the type of work I do at home,
                        > that is a nightmare. I have several computers, soldering equipment,
                        > electrochemical etching, an oscilloscope, signal generators, etc. The
                        > solder in particular, can destroy a dining room table. I also like to
                        > garden, this means buckets of dirt, packets of seed, and muddy footprints
                        > heading to the outside. These tasks cry out for dedicated, specialized
                        > space, with everything set up and ready to go. While any one persons
                        > specific activities may vary, the concept remains the same in a variety of
                        > cases.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > In the general case, some rooms should be set up for specific purposes,
                        > while others should be general purpose and reconfigurable for special
                        > events. But if you are setting up and a space and then breaking it down
                        > again every day ("multi-tasking"), you are doing something wrong.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I agree with most of the other stuff. Good food for thought.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Gary Beck ecoegr@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > *This is a good topic for adding my 2 cents (or by the length of it 200
                        > > cents).*
                        > >
                        > > Even if you can not get completely off the grid, it is good to plan to do
                        > > so. Maybe the worse you can do is be grid connected while hitting net-zero
                        > > energy in annualized energy consumption.
                        > >
                        > > It starts with design to get the energy signature as low as possible. Then
                        > > buy the right appliances, HVAC, and lighting, and stir in a nice solar
                        > > array.
                        > >
                        > > To simplify one design concept I suggested adopting a 'GSF' term a few
                        > years
                        > > ago in an residential low energy design presentation (you can still see it
                        > > on Youtube at (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e59RJHLbbg).
                        > >
                        > > In that presentation I defined 'GSF' as Green Square Feet, to be priced
                        > and
                        > > sold by builders and realtors, in lieu of 'old and out of touch' SF. You
                        > can
                        > > quickly see the concept in the attached image - nothing complicated - sort
                        > > of like your grandmas farm house built by George Jetson.
                        > >
                        > > Then on this past Sunday I read Molly Glentzer and Kathy Huber's February
                        > 6
                        > > 2011 Houston Chronicle article about how big name Realtors like Martha
                        > > Turner and Builders like David Weekly actually confirming that today's
                        > > knowledgable 'buyers prefer smaller smarter homes'. This is big news. I
                        > > hope Martha starts promoting 'GSF'.
                        > >
                        > > This mainstream article has done Architects and Home Designers a BIG
                        > favor!
                        > > They have let them off the hook by providing the `facts' that the
                        > trendiest
                        > > of trends is towards smaller smarter homes. Whew! No they can start
                        > > designing instead of just drawing bigger and bigger McMansions! (Here is a
                        > > link to the Chronicle article in case you missed it -
                        > > http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/main/7411740.html)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > In case you the link does not work, here are the key bullet points gleaned
                        > > from Molly and Kathy's article. These points are worth repeating.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > *Houston real estate agents, builders, architects and interior designers
                        > > consistently, indicate that - *
                        > >
                        > > o *Want a casual, comfortable, convenient lifestyle that's both budget-
                        > > and environmentally conscious*
                        > >
                        > > o *Smaller, smarter rooms*
                        > >
                        > > o *Bigger isn't better anymore, even if you can afford it.*
                        > >
                        > > o *Compact square footage with rooms that can serve more than one purpose.
                        > > It's environmentally friendly and less tax," (Martha Turner of Martha
                        > Turner
                        > > Properties!). *
                        > >
                        > > o *"People have realized that all the space in the world isn't the answer
                        > > to happiness, nor is it prudent." (again from Martha Turner of Martha
                        > Turner
                        > > Properties - she gets it!)*
                        > >
                        > > o *Where 10,000-square-foot homes are common. In that arena, 5,000 square
                        > > feet is suddenly desirable.*
                        > >
                        > > o *Rooms need to multitask, just like their owners.*
                        > >
                        > > o *Buyers are more likely to want that square footage devoted to a
                        > > media-filled gathering space.*
                        > >
                        > > o *People are more likely to work from home at least some of the time, so
                        > > home offices are an asset, too.*
                        > >
                        > > o *"We were just trying to have a simpler life, with less stuff," *
                        > >
                        > > o *A downstairs seating area doubles as exhibit space for local artists,
                        > > and the dining area, with a table that seats up to 14 people, is a work
                        > > space by day.*
                        > >
                        > > o *The smartest room of all these days in many new homes is the kitchen*
                        > >
                        > > o *Large, open kitchen-family room is a "must-must-must," with a corner
                        > > for kids to do their homework and an informal dining area. *
                        > >
                        > > o *A conventional range and a convection oven are mandatory, and some home
                        > > buyers request two dishwashers."*
                        > >
                        > > o *Free-standing tubs and showers with myriad water features. *
                        > >
                        > > o *"Every person who can afford it wants a separate toilet," *
                        > >
                        > > o *"Water closets are a real premium, even if you have a shared bath."*
                        > >
                        > > o *There's no end to the number of TVs people want in the house, They slap
                        > > them up like postage stamps." *
                        > >
                        > > o *Integrated technology - Wi-Fi, special lighting and other electronics -
                        > > woven into the house, *
                        > >
                        > > o *Garage and pantry storage are also important. "Costco closet" for all
                        > > the household products she buys in bulk.*
                        > >
                        > > o *Energy efficiency is both a budget and environmental issue. It's high
                        > > on priority lists.*
                        > >
                        > > o *Upgraded insulation cost more up front but reduce energy costs
                        > > long-term, she said. The key phrase is "over time." *
                        > >
                        > > o *Better sealing, better insulation, tankless water heaters, metal air
                        > > ducts, solid core windows and doors and exterior materials impervious to
                        > > fire and weather.*
                        > >
                        > > o *Trading indoor square footage for large outdoor living spaces. Outdoor
                        > > kitchens, pools and fireplaces may seem like a splurge. *
                        > >
                        > > o *The ideal space for many includes a covered area for a flat-screen TV.
                        > > Families like them as a place to play games like Wii together.*
                        > >
                        > > o *Tile and wood floors now over carpeting. "They're easier to keep. Wood
                        > > wears and matures; carpet wears and gets dirty,"*
                        > >
                        > > o *Expect homes to continue to shrink - because prices and taxes won't. *
                        > >
                        > > o *People will be able to clean their own houses." *
                        > >
                        > > *o The era of the McMansion is over.*
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Way to go Molly and Kathy!
                        > >
                        >
                      • Al Source
                        I am interested in finding a complete off the grid system design including bill of material.  Please let me know a good and reasonable source. Any help will
                        Message 12 of 29 , Feb 10, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I am interested in finding a complete off the grid system design including
                          bill of material.  Please let me know a good and reasonable source.
                          Any help will be highly appreciated.


                          From: Gary Beck <ecoegr@...>
                          To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 9:24:50 PM
                          Subject: [hreg] Re: Living Off The Grid [1 Attachment]

                           

                          This is a good topic for adding my 2 cents (or by the length of it 200 cents). 
                           
                          Even if you can not get completely off the grid, it is good to plan to do so. Maybe the worse you can do is be grid connected while hitting net-zero energy in annualized energy consumption.
                           
                          It starts with design to get the energy signature as low as possible. Then buy the right appliances, HVAC, and lighting, and stir in a nice solar array.  
                           
                          To simplify one design concept I suggested adopting a 'GSF' term a few years ago in an residential low energy design presentation (you can still see it on Youtube at (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e59RJHLbbg). 
                           
                          In that presentation I defined 'GSF' as Green Square Feet, to be priced and sold by builders and realtors, in lieu of 'old and out of touch' SF. You can quickly see the concept in the attached image - nothing complicated - sort of like your grandmas farm house built by George Jetson.
                           
                          Then on this past Sunday I read Molly Glentzer and Kathy Huber’s February 6 2011 Houston Chronicle article about how big name Realtors like Martha Turner and Builders like David Weekly actually confirming that today's knowledgable 'buyers prefer smaller smarter homes'.  This is big news.  I hope Martha starts promoting 'GSF'.
                           
                          This mainstream article has done Architects and Home Designers a BIG favor!  They have let them off the hook by providing the ‘facts’ that the trendiest of trends is towards smaller smarter homes.  Whew! No they can start designing instead of just drawing bigger and bigger McMansions! (Here is a link to the Chronicle article in case you missed it - http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/main/7411740.html)

                           

                          In case you the link does not work, here are the key bullet points gleaned from Molly and Kathy’s article.   These points are worth repeating.

                           

                          Houston real estate agents, builders, architects and interior designers consistently, indicate that –

                          o   Want a casual, comfortable, convenient lifestyle that's both budget- and environmentally conscious

                          o   Smaller, smarter rooms

                          o   Bigger isn't better anymore, even if you can afford it.

                          o   Compact square footage with rooms that can serve more than one purpose. It's environmentally friendly and less tax," (Martha Turner of Martha Turner Properties!).

                          o   "People have realized that all the space in the world isn't the answer to happiness, nor is it prudent." (again from Martha Turner of Martha Turner Properties – she gets it!)

                          o   Where 10,000-square-foot homes are common. In that arena, 5,000 square feet is suddenly desirable.

                          o   Rooms need to multitask, just like their owners.

                          o   Buyers are more likely to want that square footage devoted to a media-filled gathering space.

                          o   People are more likely to work from home at least some of the time, so home offices are an asset, too.

                          o   "We were just trying to have a simpler life, with less stuff,"

                          o   A downstairs seating area doubles as exhibit space for local artists, and the dining area, with a table that seats up to 14 people, is a work space by day.

                          o   The smartest room of all these days in many new homes is the kitchen

                          o   Large, open kitchen-family room is a "must-must-must," with a corner for kids to do their homework and an informal dining area.

                          o   A conventional range and a convection oven are mandatory, and some home buyers request two dishwashers."

                          o   Free-standing tubs and showers with myriad water features.

                          o   "Every person who can afford it wants a separate toilet,"

                          o   "Water closets are a real premium, even if you have a shared bath."

                          o   There's no end to the number of TVs people want in the house, They slap them up like postage stamps."

                          o   Integrated technology - Wi-Fi, special lighting and other electronics - woven into the house,

                          o   Garage and pantry storage are also important. "Costco closet" for all the household products she buys in bulk.

                          o   Energy efficiency is both a budget and environmental issue. It's high on priority lists.

                          o   Upgraded insulation cost more up front but reduce energy costs long-term, she said. The key phrase is "over time."

                          o   Better sealing, better insulation, tankless water heaters, metal air ducts, solid core windows and doors and exterior materials impervious to fire and weather.

                          o   Trading indoor square footage for large outdoor living spaces. Outdoor kitchens, pools and fireplaces may seem like a splurge.

                          o   The ideal space for many includes a covered area for a flat-screen TV. Families like them as a place to play games like Wii together.

                          o   Tile and wood floors now over carpeting. "They're easier to keep. Wood wears and matures; carpet wears and gets dirty,"

                          o   Expect homes to continue to shrink - because prices and taxes won't.

                          o   People will be able to clean their own houses."

                          o   The era of the McMansion is over.

                           

                          Way to go Molly and Kathy!

                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           

                        • Robert Johnston
                          If your only constraint on PV is roof space, your net worth must dwarf mine! ;-) For me, smaller makes a lot of sense. Robert From: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 13 of 29 , Feb 10, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment

                            If your only constraint on PV is roof space, your net worth must dwarf mine!  ;-)

                            For me, smaller makes a lot of sense.


                            Robert

                             

                            From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Ring
                            Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 9:14 AM
                            To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [hreg] Re: Living Off The Grid

                             

                             

                            I am not saying that your previous points are wrong for you.  Only that they are not necessarily true for everyone.  A house is a very personal thing.  If it works for you, that's great.  It doesn't work for me.

                             

                            It is not the case that large houses can't be made net-zero.  A 2000 sq foot house has 2000 sq feet of roof.  A 4000 square foot house has 4000 square feet of roof.  It's the ratio of roof space to living space that affects your ability to offset your energy use (assuming PV).

                             

                            What kills your ability to get to zero is adding a addition levels.  Extra levels add square feet of living space without adding extra roof space.  Even then you could use pole mount PV outside.

                             

                             


                            --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Beck" <ecoegr@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > 'Breaking it down' also sounds a little drastic. We are not talking about
                            > daily conversions or a 'Transformer' house. Not rocket science - just
                            > designing to the task.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I don't think many people plan to solder and re-pot plants in their kitchen.
                            > Maybe some seedling, but not the ferns. But they could do each in a
                            > multitasking garage with a well-designed in work area. Multitasking happens
                            > in every room of every house. It would work much better if each room or
                            > area were designed to do specific multitasks better.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Good designers know It is more about understanding flow and also placing
                            > things where people need them to be. This might be a nook desk in the
                            > kitchen area for all the tasks we need to do associated with and during food
                            > preparation. Plus it is a place to set up 'junior' to do homework while
                            > parents cook. Maybe it is placing a floor plug to connect into a 'wired'
                            > kitchen table so it has an outlet under a nicely decorated flush brass plate
                            > to plug in a wok or plug in a laptop without tripping over the cables,. or a
                            > reading nook designed into a stairwell landing, or a bathroom that detects
                            > high humidity and vents it.the list goes on and on.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The point is that if you choose to design a sleek good looking super
                            > insulated smart operating smaller (not tiny!) home, you can create the
                            > opportunity to go net-zero energy on an annualized basis. If you design a
                            > large home, the simple kW/sf will quickly get you off that net-zero
                            > possibility.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay
                            > Ring
                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 10:21 AM
                            > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [hreg] Re: Living Off The Grid
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Thanks for the article, and for your comments, Gary.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I thought I would chime in with some of my own thoughts:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Bigger isn't better, even if you can afford it.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Somewhat agree, but disagree in the general case.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > It's not universally true that bigger or smaller is better. There is a
                            > "right size" that depends on each person/family.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Even when a room exists only to provide luxury I am not against it. You
                            > should love your house. Just don't have a bunch of empty rooms that you
                            > never use. Be sure that everything was intelligently designed and exists
                            > for a purpose, not just added on without thought.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Rooms need to multitask, just like their owners
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Disagree with some exceptions.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I don't like the idea of multi-tasking in rooms. You spend too much time
                            > setting up and breaking down. It's much more convenient to set it up and
                            > leave it that way.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > In the article, they use the example of a dining room that they use as a
                            > work space. That may work for them, but for the type of work I do at home,
                            > that is a nightmare. I have several computers, soldering equipment,
                            > electrochemical etching, an oscilloscope, signal generators, etc. The
                            > solder in particular, can destroy a dining room table. I also like to
                            > garden, this means buckets of dirt, packets of seed, and muddy footprints
                            > heading to the outside. These tasks cry out for dedicated, specialized
                            > space, with everything set up and ready to go. While any one persons
                            > specific activities may vary, the concept remains the same in a variety of
                            > cases.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > In the general case, some rooms should be set up for specific purposes,
                            > while others should be general purpose and reconfigurable for special
                            > events. But if you are setting up and a space and then breaking it down
                            > again every day ("multi-tasking"), you are doing something wrong.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I agree with most of the other stuff. Good food for thought.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Gary Beck ecoegr@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > > *This is a good topic for adding my 2 cents (or by the length of it 200
                            > > cents).*
                            > >
                            > > Even if you can not get completely off the grid, it is good to plan to do
                            > > so. Maybe the worse you can do is be grid connected while hitting net-zero
                            > > energy in annualized energy consumption.
                            > >
                            > > It starts with design to get the energy signature as low as possible. Then
                            > > buy the right appliances, HVAC, and lighting, and stir in a nice solar
                            > > array.
                            > >
                            > > To simplify one design concept I suggested adopting a 'GSF' term a few
                            > years
                            > > ago in an residential low energy design presentation (you can still see it
                            > > on Youtube at (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e59RJHLbbg).
                            > >
                            > > In that presentation I defined 'GSF' as Green Square Feet, to be priced
                            > and
                            > > sold by builders and realtors, in lieu of 'old and out of touch' SF. You
                            > can
                            > > quickly see the concept in the attached image - nothing complicated - sort
                            > > of like your grandmas farm house built by George Jetson.
                            > >
                            > > Then on this past Sunday I read Molly Glentzer and Kathy Huber's February
                            > 6
                            > > 2011 Houston Chronicle article about how big name Realtors like Martha
                            > > Turner and Builders like David Weekly actually confirming that today's
                            > > knowledgable 'buyers prefer smaller smarter homes'. This is big news. I
                            > > hope Martha starts promoting 'GSF'.
                            > >
                            > > This mainstream article has done Architects and Home Designers a BIG
                            > favor!
                            > > They have let them off the hook by providing the `facts' that the
                            > trendiest
                            > > of trends is towards smaller smarter homes. Whew! No they can start
                            > > designing instead of just drawing bigger and bigger McMansions! (Here is a
                            > > link to the Chronicle article in case you missed it -
                            > > http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/main/7411740.html)
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > In case you the link does not work, here are the key bullet points gleaned
                            > > from Molly and Kathy's article. These points are worth repeating.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > *Houston real estate agents, builders, architects and interior designers
                            > > consistently, indicate that - *
                            > >
                            > > o *Want a casual, comfortable, convenient lifestyle that's both budget-
                            > > and environmentally conscious*
                            > >
                            > > o *Smaller, smarter rooms*
                            > >
                            > > o *Bigger isn't better anymore, even if you can afford it.*
                            > >
                            > > o *Compact square footage with rooms that can serve more than one purpose.
                            > > It's environmentally friendly and less tax," (Martha Turner of Martha
                            > Turner
                            > > Properties!). *
                            > >
                            > > o *"People have realized that all the space in the world isn't the answer
                            > > to happiness, nor is it prudent." (again from Martha Turner of Martha
                            > Turner
                            > > Properties - she gets it!)*
                            > >
                            > > o *Where 10,000-square-foot homes are common. In that arena, 5,000 square
                            > > feet is suddenly desirable.*
                            > >
                            > > o *Rooms need to multitask, just like their owners.*
                            > >
                            > > o *Buyers are more likely to want that square footage devoted to a
                            > > media-filled gathering space.*
                            > >
                            > > o *People are more likely to work from home at least some of the time, so
                            > > home offices are an asset, too.*
                            > >
                            > > o *"We were just trying to have a simpler life, with less stuff," *
                            > >
                            > > o *A downstairs seating area doubles as exhibit space for local artists,
                            > > and the dining area, with a table that seats up to 14 people, is a work
                            > > space by day.*
                            > >
                            > > o *The smartest room of all these days in many new homes is the kitchen*
                            > >
                            > > o *Large, open kitchen-family room is a "must-must-must," with a corner
                            > > for kids to do their homework and an informal dining area. *
                            > >
                            > > o *A conventional range and a convection oven are mandatory, and some home
                            > > buyers request two dishwashers."*
                            > >
                            > > o *Free-standing tubs and showers with myriad water features. *
                            > >
                            > > o *"Every person who can afford it wants a separate toilet," *
                            > >
                            > > o *"Water closets are a real premium, even if you have a shared bath."*
                            > >
                            > > o *There's no end to the number of TVs people want in the house, They slap
                            > > them up like postage stamps." *
                            > >
                            > > o *Integrated technology - Wi-Fi, special lighting and other electronics -
                            > > woven into the house, *
                            > >
                            > > o *Garage and pantry storage are also important. "Costco closet" for all
                            > > the household products she buys in bulk.*
                            > >
                            > > o *Energy efficiency is both a budget and environmental issue. It's high
                            > > on priority lists.*
                            > >
                            > > o *Upgraded insulation cost more up front but reduce energy costs
                            > > long-term, she said. The key phrase is "over time." *
                            > >
                            > > o *Better sealing, better insulation, tankless water heaters, metal air
                            > > ducts, solid core windows and doors and exterior materials impervious to
                            > > fire and weather.*
                            > >
                            > > o *Trading indoor square footage for large outdoor living spaces. Outdoor
                            > > kitchens, pools and fireplaces may seem like a splurge. *
                            > >
                            > > o *The ideal space for many includes a covered area for a flat-screen TV.
                            > > Families like them as a place to play games like Wii together.*
                            > >
                            > > o *Tile and wood floors now over carpeting. "They're easier to keep. Wood
                            > > wears and matures; carpet wears and gets dirty,"*
                            > >
                            > > o *Expect homes to continue to shrink - because prices and taxes won't. *
                            > >
                            > > o *People will be able to clean their own houses." *
                            > >
                            > > *o The era of the McMansion is over.*
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Way to go Molly and Kathy!
                            > >
                            >

                          • Ariel Thomann
                            Jay wrote: A 2000 sq foot house has 2000 sq feet of roof. A 4000 square foot house has 4000 Sort of; it s only valid in a two-dimensional world, with all
                            Message 14 of 29 , Feb 11, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Jay wrote:
                              "A 2000 sq foot house has 2000 sq feet of roof. A 4000 square foot house has 4000"
                              Sort of; it's only valid in a two-dimensional world, with all roofs flat - perhaps valid at the equator?
                              Around here, for PV purposes, roofs should be slanted about 30 degrees.  A 40 x 40 ft house (1600 sq ft footprint) would have about 1840 sq ft of roof (without overhangs).  If you built such a
                              40 x 40 ft house at 90 degrees latitude, your ideal PV roof would be vertical and veeeeery tall.  Yes, it can get ridiculous.
                              Peace
                              Ariel


                              - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            • Lynden Foley
                              Thank you, that is priceless. No offense, sometimes I feel like I live in a two dimensional world. Congratulations to the people of Egypt. Lynden
                              Message 15 of 29 , Feb 11, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thank you, that is priceless. No offense, sometimes I feel like I live in a two dimensional world.
                                Congratulations to the people of Egypt.

                                Lynden

                                Jay wrote:
                                "A 2000 sq foot house has 2000 sq feet of roof. A 4000 square foot house has 4000"
                                Sort of; it's only valid in a two-dimensional world, with all roofs flat - perhaps valid at the equator?
                                Around here, for PV purposes, roofs should be slanted about 30 degrees.  A 40 x 40 ft house (1600 sq ft footprint) would have about 1840 sq ft of roof (without overhangs).  If you built such a
                                40 x 40 ft house at 90 degrees latitude, your ideal PV roof would be vertical and veeeeery tall.  Yes, it can get ridiculous.
                                Peace
                                Ariel


                                - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

                              • Jay Ring
                                Well, yeah. I was ignoring that for simplicity, and just talking about it from the top, the way it would appear on the floor plan. But you are, of course,
                                Message 16 of 29 , Feb 11, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Well, yeah. I was ignoring that for simplicity, and just talking about it from the top, the way it would appear on the floor plan. But you are, of course, absolutely correct.

                                  At 90deg latitude you are on the north pole. The sun is permanently up during summer and permanently down during winter. The angle will be a problem, but properly sizing your battery will be the real nightmare... well, that and getting groceries... hehehe


                                  --- In hreg@yahoogroups.com, Ariel Thomann <ajthomann@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Jay wrote:
                                  >
                                  > "A 2000 sq foot house has 2000 sq feet of roof. A 4000 square foot house has 4000"
                                  > Sort of; it's only valid in a two-dimensional world, with all roofs flat - perhaps valid at the equator?
                                  > Around here, for PV purposes, roofs should be slanted about 30 degrees. A 40 x 40 ft house (1600 sq ft footprint) would have about 1840 sq ft of roof (without overhangs). If you built such a 40 x 40 ft house at 90 degrees latitude, your ideal PV roof would be vertical and veeeeery tall. Yes, it can get ridiculous.
                                  > Peace
                                  > Ariel
                                  >
                                  > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                  >
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.