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9174RE: [hreg] A holistically different point to look at PV investment.

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  • Tyra Rankin
    Aug 3, 2009
    • 0 Attachment

      Great plan, James!  That is exactly what they are doing in Europe right now – lots of new homes are built totally without AC/Heating systems by using PV, air envelopes, heat pumps and the other things you mention.  But in many European countries, they get incentives too!  It makes things happen much faster.

       

      In Texas we are stubbornly tied to the “free market” mantra, forgetting that with respect to energy, it is an illusion preventing us adopting these technologies and making change.

       

      Best,

      Tyra

       


      From: hreg@yahoogroups.com [mailto: hreg@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of James McKethen
      Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:44 AM
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [hreg] A holistically different point to look at PV investment.

       

       

      There is no question that there isnt a financial incentive to install PV right now in Houston .

      However there is an intangible value to doing the right thing, 

      If you have the expendable capital, Instead of buying that shiny new BMW. Lets put up $30k of panels, Install a high efficiency heatpump. Replace our lighting and lighting controls for CFL. Install light tubes for high traffic locations, and increase the efficacy of our insulation. And last but not least install a sexy solar hot water panel.

       

      Then wait on car purchase for some of the new truely electric cars coming out.

       

      YMMV

       

      Mac

       

       

       

       

       


      From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto: hreg@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Bill or Dorothy Swann
      Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:19 AM
      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
      Subject: Re: [hreg] A different way to look at PV investment.. .

       

          Here is the electric vehicle math. My small EV consumes 200 watt hours per mile. With 1.5 kWatt of panels, you can harvest 2376 kWatt-hr per year or 6.5 kWatt-hr per day. 6500/200 = 32 miles per day.
          The source of energy harvested per year is <http://rredc. nrel.gov/ solar/codes_ algs/PVWATTS/ version1/ US/> Choose Texas , click on Houston , and enter the data. I have used tracking solar arrays.

       

      Thanks,Bill S
      Ph 832-338-3080
      www.promotingevs. com

       

       


      From: Russell Warren <rrwarren@earthlink. net>
      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 7:53:18 AM
      Subject: RE: [hreg] A different way to look at PV investment.. .

       

      I think this is a nice example except for the fact that there is a huge assumption being made in that a 1.5 kW solar system could power an electric vehicle for the same amount of miles as the gas listed in the explanation.

      Needless to say I have my doubts that you could run a vehicle on even 20 kWh a day.

       

       

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Kevin Conlin
      Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 5:13 PM
      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
      Subject: [hreg] A different way to look at PV investment.. .

       

      Good points all.

      At the Solar 2009 conference a few months ago I heard a very interesting
      analogy made. The premise was that if you invested in a 1.5 kw PV system and
      drove an electric vehicle for the next 30 years, you would essentially have
      paid for 30 years worth of fuel with the PV system. I don't remember all the
      specific assumptions, but it assumed a useful life of 30 years for the pv.

      1.5KW @ $10,000 x .7 Federal Tax Credit = $7,000/30 years = $233/year.
      Compared to a 25 mpg vehicle, current gasoline costs would be at least
      $800/year, and aren't likely to decline over 30 years time, but you could
      also assume mileage improvements would be par with rising fuel costs.

      I know you can take the example apart because of the assumptions and
      simplified math, but the point was by investing in pv/ev you were displacing
      foreign oil payments and reducing the trade deficit, spending the money
      domestically and stimulating a growing industry, reducing CO2 and other
      climate changing emissions, encouraging distributed energy on the grid as
      well as saving money personally, over $15,000.

      As Kim alluded, the benefits aren't just financial; intangibles such as the
      personal pride, enjoyment and fulfillment that come from ownership have
      different values to different people.

      Kevin Conlin
      Heliosolar Design, Inc.
      13534 Quetzal Lane
      Houston , TX 77083
      C: (281) 202-9629
      H: (281) 530-7501
      F: (281) 530-7501
      kevin@heliosolardes ign.com



      -----Original Message-----
      From: hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Garth
      & Kim Travis
      Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 3:40 PM
      To: hreg@yahoogroups. com
      Subject: Re: [hreg] Cost of solar PV installed.

      Greetings,

      Why would you factor 100% financing? Even mortgages require at least 5 or 10
      percent down. Also, a 25 year term for a mere $38,500? That is paying less
      than $2,000 a year in capital. Any financial adviser worth their salt would
      tell you that is a bit silly, a 15 year period would be pretty maximum. How
      many times over do you wish to pay for the system?

      If you are going to include all of the joys of ownership, you should also
      include the adjustments for the rising cost of electric, and the final value
      of the system when it is paid for. Especially since when you pay the grid,
      at the end of it all, you have nothing. It is like renting a home vs owning
      a home. Initially it costs more to own, but in the long run, it is soooooo
      much cheaper.

      Bright Blessings,
      Kim

      Robert Johnston wrote:
      >
      >
      > This doesn't factor in (1) the cost of capital or (2) increased
      > property insurance rates.
      >
      > (1) If you assume 100% financing at mortgage rates of 5.25% for 25
      > years, the monthly payment for a $38,500 system (10kW) would be
      > $230.71. Using Chris' estimated output for a 10kW system of 1000
      > kW/mo, that increases the cost to $0.23/kwh.
      >
      > (2) I was recently quoted $10 annually per $1000 coverage on Texas
      > Windstorm (possibly Houston is a bit less; I live in Lake Jackson ,
      > nearer the coast). Federal flood insurance currently runs me $2.61 per
      > $1000 coverage. Homeowners insurance costs me $3.73 per $1000 of
      > coverage. Thus, for all 3 coverages, a total of $16.34 per $1000 of
      > coverage. Now, I don't know what exactly solar panels and controls add
      > compared to the cost of the rest of the house itself, but if we
      > conservatively assume that it incrementally increases insurance costs
      > only at 75% of the rate of the rest of the house, that is $12.26 per
      > $1000, or for a $38,500 installation (assuming we only insure for the
      > net cost to us after federal subsidies, not the replacement cost of
      > the system), then that is an extra $472 per year, or $0.039/kwh. If
      > insured at replacement cost, it will be correspondingly higher (I
      > suspect you will be required by your insurance company to cover at
      > replacement cost since that is what they are promising to do for you,
      > and no federal subsidy will help them replace your system after a
      > fire, hurricane, etc.). If rates are lower in your area, or you don't
      > carry flood coverage, then rates would be somewhat lower.
      >
      >
      > With the cost of financing and the cost of insurance factored in, the
      > cost would be approximately $0.27/kwh for a 10 kW system. Whereas
      > $0.128/kwh is similar to current REP rates, $0.27/kwh is not.
      >
      > Robert Johnston
      >
      > *From:* hreg@yahoogroups. com [mailto:hreg@yahoogroups. com] *On Behalf
      > Of *Chris Boyer
      > *Sent:* Saturday, August 01, 2009 10:27 PM
      > *To:* HREG
      > *Subject:* [hreg] Cost of solar PV installed.
      >
      > Here is a simple calculation showing examples of the current economics
      > for Solar PV in Houston . I mentioned this is the HREG meeting last
      > Sunday, so here are the numbers. What it shows is the "Price" of
      > installing a system of three sizes on a building (the upfront cash
      > layout), from 100 kW, to 10 kW and 1 kW; then the Federal Tax Credit
      > (which is now a rebate for commercial systems); and the Net cost of
      > the solar installation for each size. The next line is typical energy
      > production (kWh) that the system would produce over the life of the
      > system (25 years warranty). Dividing the Net cost by energy produced
      > gives the Cost of electricity with a solar PV system on a building:
      > less than 12 cents/kWh for larger systems and nearly 15 cents/kWh for
      > very small systems.
      >
      > Size
      >
      >
      >
      > 100 kW
      >
      >
      >
      > 10 kW
      >
      >
      >
      > 1 kW
      >
      > Price
      >
      >
      >
      > $500,000.00
      >
      >
      >
      > $55,000.00
      >
      >
      >
      > $6,500.00
      >
      > Fed
      >
      >
      >
      > $150,000.00
      >
      >
      >
      > $16,500.00
      >
      >
      >
      > $1,950.00
      >
      > Net
      >
      >
      >
      > $350,000.00
      >
      >
      >
      > $38,500.00
      >
      >
      >
      > $4,550.00
      >
      > Production
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > kWh/25yr
      >
      >
      >
      > 3,000,000
      >
      >
      >
      > 300,000
      >
      >
      >
      > 30,000
      >
      > Electricity
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Cost
      >
      >
      >
      > $ 0.117
      >
      >
      >
      > $ 0.128
      >
      >
      >
      > $ 0.152
      >
      >
      >
      >

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